Use Of Religeous Or Political Stickers In Logs

7.2k · December 17, 2004

I think there isn't a whole lot you can do to stop it, but I do understand why in context it could be offensive. It seems to me like if he wasn't trying to make a political statement (anti-gay) he probably would have talked about it, and maybe stopped doing it. I don't think generally there is anything offensive about the statement, but most people here aren't from Oregon, and probably don't understand the context.
Imagine the KKK started using the slogan "Unity for a stronger, America" and you started seeing this phrase appear in log books. I imagine you'd be highly offended, there still isn't anything you could do about it, but I can understand being offended by it.

I was going to post, but my thunder was stolen.

Well, said.

1.4k · December 17, 2004

Wow, there are a lot of people here that aren't listening at all.

As a former and future Oregonian I know exactly how offesive that phrase is. I could care less about all the comments from people that don't live there saying I see nothing wrong with it. If you don't live there you don't have a clue. It has been explained several times that people that don't like that phrase aren't saying that they don't like family values and implying so is just totally ignorant.

In Oregon press "family values"="antigay". Simple enough. And the best parallel was asking people if it would be okay for a cacher to sign the logs with a swastika each time.

If you don't know the history behind the phrase in THIS geographical area then stop commenting on how YOU feel about it.

3.3k · December 17, 2004

Here is my perception, the "group" or minority whom lost the vote regarding this marriage act are out for blood. They are quick to call everyone else who disagrees with their side, Anti-American, right wingers, closet rapist, and intolerant bigots. These are the same people who want to silence one man because he posts a pro-family message in his logs.

Here is one more example of this quick rush to judgement: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...58-9c2f0cb7b59d

"I regret to report that one of our very active Geocachers is continuing to paste a sticker in the logs proclaiming "Geocaching - Family Values for a Stronger America". Many of us find this a particularly offensive political slogan and we have asked this individual to stop this illegal practice. The latest intrusions of politics on the joy of this game were posted on Beads and Bear Footin. several of us have asked this individual on a personal basis to stop using the stickers, but to no avail. Very regrettable."

Another: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...01-7a5e66a73869

"I second BE's comment on the stickers: "Geocaching - Family Values for a Stronger America". The stickers are offensive too many of us and are illegal in the game."

Another: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...d1-009f47296c40

"Took nothing, left a signature. I am concerned too, about the inappropriate political slogan pasted on a sticker in the log book.

--Baron Max"

Looks like this is your personal agenda to bash him because he doesn't share your pro-gay views.

Pro-family means just that Pro Family!

Edited December 17, 2004 by Kit Fox

December 17, 2004

Said Oregon activist Roey Thorpe, “On the road to equality and freedom, there are always setbacks.”

The above quote is from this MSNBC story about the defeat of the 11 gay marriage proposals in various states.

I find it highly ironic that the Baron who seems to support the gay marriage proposals can't agree with one of the chief supporters in Oregon who talks about freedom. In this case, I'm referring to freedom of speech.

Why not simply create a sticker of your own, Baron, that says something like, "Geocaching - Gay Couple Values for a ... whatever"? You have the right to freedom of speech as much as the "active retired gentleman."

2.3k · December 17, 2004

There's not really a whole lot you can do about it. Sentries at caches is just too much work.

I know there is a lot of angst towards W, but the phrase in itself isn't really offensive, is it?

it matters not if stickers in a log book are offensive or not, Jeremy has a point. Baron, how would you stop this? Don't tell me to ban this person as that won't stop them. The local reviewer is not going to go to each cache every week to police the logs. Even if they did there is nothing that could be don't to stop anyone from writing what ever they want to in a log. Heck we can't stop people from defecating in caches how do you expect anyone to stop someone from writing in a book. Shall we outlaw log books? Then only outlaws will have log books

It's not enforceable. "Thats the fact, Jack"

3k · December 17, 2004

I just got one of those e-mails that goes round and round, but it seemed appropriate to throw into this thread:

INSTRUCTIONS FOR LIFE

1. Take into account that great love and great achievements involve great risk.

2. When you lose, don’t lose the lesson.

3. Follow the three R’s:

o Respect for self,

o Respect for others and

o Responsibility for all your actions.

4. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful stroke of luck.

5. Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.

6. Don’t let a little dispute injure a great relationship.

7. When you realize you’ve made a mistake, take immediate steps to correct it.

8. Spend some time alone every day.

9. Spend some time alone every day.

10. Open arms to change, but don’t let go of your values.

11. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.

12. Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you’ll be able to enjoy it a second time.

13. A loving atmosphere in your home is the foundation for your life.

14. In disagreements with loved ones, deal only with the current situation. Don’t bring up the past.

15. Share your knowledge. It’s a way to achieve immortality.

16. Be gentle with the earth.

17. Once a year, go someplace you’ve never been before.

18. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

19. Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon.

Edited December 17, 2004 by Planet

December 17, 2004

Wow, there are a lot of people here that aren't listening at all.

As a former and future Oregonian I know exactly how offesive that phrase is. I could care less about all the comments from people that don't live there saying I see nothing wrong with it. If you don't live there you don't have a clue. It has been explained several times that people that don't like that phrase aren't saying that they don't like family values and implying so is just totally ignorant.

In Oregon press "family values"="antigay". Simple enough. And the best parallel was asking people if it would be okay for a cacher to sign the logs with a swastika each time.

If you don't know the history behind the phrase in THIS geographical area then stop commenting on how YOU feel about it.

If this thread was posted in a regional forum, your arguement would have more merit. Since it is posted here, you gotta expect comments from all over the country.

1.8k · December 17, 2004

It's not enforceable. "Thats the fact, Jack"

Oh yeah, what about we take Ol' Uncle Ronnie's (Ronald Reagan) Star Wars satellite (and missile) killing satellites and aim those puppies at suspected cache log offenders. We could blast those sticker plastering nut jobs all over the dadgum place. We could use the same satellites to spy and track the would be offenders. Hell, if we can read a license plate from space we can dadgum sure read a "W-04" sticker on their bumper. There... it may cost a little money, but you now have the ability to enforce your guideline.

NOTE TO SELF ... (stop taking morning meds. on empty stomach full of coffeeeee ...)

Edited December 17, 2004 by clearpath

18.9k · December 17, 2004

Some find the phrase "offensive". Some find the phrase "political". Some find it encouraging. Some find it patriotic. If the gentleman's intent was to inflict hurt, pain and suffering to those who read it than shame on him. If it is a reflection of his beliefs and values than I know him better (whether I agree or not) [i kinda like it for a variety of reasons]. Somehow I tend to think it has a small bit of what makes him unique. Don't we ALL try to leave something like that in our logs?? Our Avitars?? Our cache names??

(gulp - Mopar and I are agreeing)

2.3k · December 17, 2004

It's not enforceable. "Thats the fact, Jack"

Oh yeah, what about we take Ol' Uncle Ronnie's (Ronald Reagan) Star Wars satellite (and missile) killing satellites and aim those puppies at suspected cache log offenders. We could blast those sticker plastering nut jobs all over the dadgum place. We could use the same satellites to spy and track the would be offenders. Hell, if we can read a license plate from space we can dadgum sure read a "W-04" sticker on their bumper. There... it may cost a little money, but you now have the ability to enforce your guideline.

NOTE TO SELF ... (stop taking morning meds. on empty stomach full of coffeeeee ...)

Its not that you need to stop taking the meds on an empty stomach. You need to learn to share.

December 17, 2004

I think the worst thing about this whole topic is the blatant hypocrisy being performed by not only Baron Max but by a lot of other people in this country all together.

Baron Max leaves a "Kerry for president pin" in a cache and still has the audacity to get fired up that someone may be leaving a religous or political sticker next to that persons log that he doesn't agree with.

Yes, maybe the old man was leaving a part of his beliefs next to his log, but blasting him in all your logs while leaving a Kerry for president pin. I'm sorry but that's just F*ED up.

6.4k · December 17, 2004

(gulp - Mopar and I are agreeing)

That's ok, I'm pretty sure GrizzlyJohn and I agree too, but if one of us admits it, the resulting alignment of the planets might cause a a world-wide catastrophe; the likes of which have not been seen since January 1, 2000.

Edited December 17, 2004 by Mopar

22k · December 17, 2004

In the mist of this debate, all I can picture is Rev. Lovejoy's wife standing up and crying "Won't someone think of the children?!"

I think I'll tend to the beam in my eye and not the mote in my brother's.

6.5k · December 17, 2004

Methinks Clearpath has smoked the peace pipe a little too much at breakfast.

I understand the offense taken by the OP. Understanding the undelying message, I also find this practice a bit offensive. I also do not like seeing religious tracts in caches, so I trade them for sweet potaato tracts sometimes. My views on this issue might even be a little more liberal than some of the others who have already replied, but the bottom line is-"what do you want to do about it, and what can you really do about it? You have asked nicely and he has declined to stop. He has decided to make this his signature.

So I suppose you could follow him around from cache to cache and remove the page with the stickers, but then you become the cache police and that is even wronger (sic). So just ignore it, the same as you ignore the media ads and billboards you do not agree with.

And if you meet up with this gentleman at an event you can take him out back and beat him to a pulp and make him wear a rainbow ribbon. just kidding sort of

1.5k · December 17, 2004

I gotta admit, I don't quite see the problem; The sticker espoused neither a distinct political platform or relegious belief. Certainly if said Marxist-Lenninism, the way of the Future in the USA" you would have cause for complaint, there seems little offensive to me that. Isn't that the whole platform that Jeremey et al have taken? That is, family friendly, family values, et cetera? I have found a lot worse things in 'caches!

7.2k · December 17, 2004

If you don't know the history behind the phrase in THIS geographical area then stop commenting on how YOU feel about it.

I think I understand what it means and I am a gay-rights supporter.

I think gay rights is the civil rights issue of our time. Folks in the future will look back to this time just like we look back to the 60's civil rights fight then. I hear echos of Jim Crow in the voices of many of our leaders today, only it's not about Blacks.

You watch.

7.2k · December 17, 2004

I gotta admit, I don't quite see the problem; The sticker espoused neither a distinct political platform or relegious belief. Certainly if said Marxist-Lenninism, the way of the Future in the USA" you would have cause for complaint, there seems little offensive to me that. Isn't that the whole platform that Jeremey et al have taken? That is, family friendly, family values, et cetera? I have found a lot worse things in 'caches!

I think the issue is, in Oregon "Family Values" is the same thing as "anti-gay."

22k · December 17, 2004

"We commit ourselves to a set of impressive moral principles and then blunder ahead in the belief that these will protect us from the real problems of living. I don't wish to downgrade the importance of moral principles- indeed I'll speak very highly of them- but we need to spend time looking at them in context. " - Robert Bennett

Unless he has commited a hate crime, the problem of anti-gay slogans should not be addressed at the individual level of some poor geocacher. It's not in context with your moral values. Beating this guy into submission is not a victory for society.

Edit: spelling

Edited December 17, 2004 by BlueDeuce

9.4k · December 17, 2004

I think I understand what it means and I am a gay-rights supporter.

This is not a debate about gay rights (or even a commentary on it). Keep this topic on point.

6.4k · December 17, 2004

I gotta admit, I don't quite see the problem; The sticker espoused neither a distinct political platform or relegious belief. Certainly if said Marxist-Lenninism, the way of the Future in the USA" you would have cause for complaint, there seems little offensive to me that. Isn't that the whole platform that Jeremey et al have taken? That is, family friendly, family values, et cetera? I have found a lot worse things in 'caches!

I think the issue is, in Oregon "Family Values" is the same thing as "anti-gay."

I think we all get that, now. The problem is context. I just dont see anything anti-gay in the context used here.

So in Oregon, if I say "My family values the time we have left with my gay cousin with AIDS" I will be offending my cousin and his husband? Or, if I say "My cousin and his husband are trying to instill strong family values in their kids before he dies" I'm gonna piss off mad max?

Edited December 17, 2004 by Mopar

7.2k · December 17, 2004

I think I understand what it means and I am a gay-rights supporter.

This is not a debate about gay rights (or even a commentary on it). Keep this topic on point.

No problem. I was just trying to comment on where I was coming from with regards to my earlier comment. Understanding a point of view sometimes takes expansion of that point of view.

9.4k · December 17, 2004

As a former and future Oregonian I know exactly how offesive that phrase is. I could care less about all the comments from people that don't live there saying I see nothing wrong with it. If you don't live there you don't have a clue. It has been explained several times that people that don't like that phrase aren't saying that they don't like family values and implying so is just totally ignorant.

Yeah, Nurse Dave. It is totally ignorant of us not to know the inner workings of Oregon press. There are regional forums for regional discussions. The General forum is for everyone. If he didn't want our opinion, like someone else noted, they should have posted it elsewhere.

I personally don't consider being ignorant an insult, especially when it was unintentional.

So, some points distilled:

1. You can tell people what to do all you want, but the bottom line is that you can't control what people write in logs, so tolerate it.

2. We can (for a small part) make sure that most caches do not have themes that solicit and already have that in the guidelines. (I'll remember to make a bookmark of this topic the next time someone complains about that guideline)

8. The original poster asks that people leave out politics and religion from a cache but leaves Kerry pins.

3. Words hurt worse than sticks and stones after all. ("I knew it! Mrs. Hobbes from the third grade lied to me!).

16. I can't count.

1.5k · December 17, 2004

I gotta admit, I don't quite see the problem; The sticker espoused neither a distinct political platform or relegious belief. Certainly if said Marxist-Lenninism, the way of the Future in the USA" you would have cause for complaint, there seems little offensive to me that. Isn't that the whole platform that Jeremey et al have taken? That is, family friendly, family values, et cetera? I have found a lot worse things in 'caches!

I think the issue is, in Oregon "Family Values" is the same thing as "anti-gay."

Interesting leap of logic; Oregon has reinvented the English language and assigned their own meanings to words and phrases?

7.2k · December 17, 2004

I gotta admit, I don't quite see the problem; The sticker espoused neither a distinct political platform or relegious belief. Certainly if said Marxist-Lenninism, the way of the Future in the USA" you would have cause for complaint, there seems little offensive to me that. Isn't that the whole platform that Jeremey et al have taken? That is, family friendly, family values, et cetera? I have found a lot worse things in 'caches!

I think the issue is, in Oregon "Family Values" is the same thing as "anti-gay."

I think we all get that, now. The problem is context. I just dont see anything anti-gay in the context used here.

So in Oregon, if I say "My family values the time we have left with my gay cousin with AIDS" I will be offending my cousin and his husband? Or, "My cousin and his husband are trying to instill strong family values in their kids before he dies" I'm gonna piss off mad max?

What does a burning cross signify? Did you know the swastika is actually an ancient symbol of good luck? What does it mean if you fly the Confederate Battle flag?

All symbols corrupted by a group to fit their on agenda.

Same here. Sure it's localized, but no less powerful nonetheless.

December 17, 2004

I just had an epiphany but it probably won't make sense to anyone but me - cuz that's just the kind of guy I am...

I like vanilla ice cream and don't mind if other people eat rocky road ice cream, but it would annoy me if they kept rubbing their ice cream in my face... for that matter it would annoy me if someone kept rubbing vanilla ice cream in my face, even though I like it. I'm not judging anyone else for eating rocky road... but I don't understand why they keep sticking it in my face and forcing me to look at it.

9.4k · December 17, 2004

Interesting leap of logic; Oregon has reinvented the English language and assigned their own meanings to words and phrases?

Regional slang does occur.

December 17, 2004

Oh geez....you know what? A log entry is the spot for the cacher to make their mark...to put a little something of themselves into the cache. That page where they sign the log, is their little spot.

How many billion people do we have on this planet? We all have different beliefs and political positions. So...lots of you are offended by it? So what? There's LOTS of people who are NOT offended by it. Why should the group that IS offended by it, rule out? Besides...what's so offensive about it?

If I were to see someone put in "Bush is an idiot...vote Kerry" in their log, I might roll my eyes, and I might not like it...but it's perfectly alright! It's their space, and let them put what they want... as long as what they write, isn't something so obviously inflammatory/racial/hateful as to offend most everyone. For me to be so offended by a log entry, that I complained to the website about it, it would probably have to be something from the KKK, or something.

What's next? Are people going to protest, if I put "God Bless!" on my log entries? I mean...I know it's such a horrible thing to wish people well, and all. Even if I didn't believe in God, if someone wished me God's blessing, I would at least know that it was a nice thoughtful gesture towards me, and I would appreciate that. Ok...got off track a little, but you know what I mean, I think.

9.4k · December 17, 2004

All symbols corrupted by a group to fit their on agenda.

Same here. Sure it's localized, but no less powerful nonetheless.

My point early on was perhaps it is time to take the power away from the words and use it in a positive way? One Geocaching example was the "Get a Life" topic. Eventually people were wearing it as a tee shirt.

"Geocaching family values for a stronger america" could have a new meaning. The corruption of those words only occured in Oregon because (apparently. I don't live there) the press made it that way.

December 17, 2004

Discussions like this are what make those cavemen commercials so funny.

Announcer: "It's so simple even a caveman could do it!"

Caveman to other caveman: "Did you hear what he just said?"

Other caveman: "Unbelievable!"

December 17, 2004

That's ok, I'm pretty sure GrizzlyJohn and I agree too, but if one of us admits it, the resulting alignment of the planets might cause a a world-wide catastrophe; the likes of which have not been seen since January 1, 2000.

Hey you are not going to pin that on me!

22k · December 17, 2004

What does a burning cross signify? Did you know the swastika is actually an ancient symbol of good luck? What does it mean if you fly the Confederate Battle flag?

Burning cross on someone's lawn or painting a swastika on a synagogue is a crime.

A family values sticker is not.

Context people, context!

6.5k · December 17, 2004

"Have a blessed day" is a common farewell saying in these parts. I am not religious, and do not want to derail this thread in that direction by this post. However I am not offended if people say good bye in this manner, and do not correct or challenge them when the say this to me. Maybe I should, since I do not agre with their values or beliefs?

1.8k · December 17, 2004

Regional slang does occur.

Now where'd ya get a crazy idea like that .... I've a mind ta cuss ya up a blue streak ...

December 17, 2004

Good Grief
Oregon just voted in an anti-gay amendment to it's constitution based on a religious "family values" theme. Phrases like Baron Max quotes were used to discriminate against those Oregonians who did not fit the "family values" of others.

I am going to assume that the supposed "anti-gay" ballot measure, was one that said only a man and a woman can be married. Please accept my apologies, if I'm wrong. It's hard to tell tone on a bulletin board, so you should know, I am serious in what I'm about to say, and there is no attitude intended.

Just because you say a bill is "anti-gay", doesn't make it true. I could just as easily say that such a bill is "anti-marriage", but that would be just as biased towards my side of the fence, as yours. Both might be unfair and, at least, are showing a bias, rather than being an actual literal description of the measure.

Since it's inception, marriage has been between a man and a woman. It's of my opinion that, that is part of the description....definition, if you will, of a marriage. You don't put wings and a jet engine on a boat, poke holes in the bottom, and still fight to call it a boat, and then get offended when people tell you that you can't call it a boat anymore. You've just made it into an airplane.

I have no problem with gays, bi-sexuals, or just close friends that just happen to live together and want to stay that way, having a "civil union" that gives them certain benefits, just like a married couple get. I simply do not see why marriage, has to be re-defined. What next? Polygamy gets added to the definition of marriage? Hey...a guy finds two women (or vice versa) that want to live and sleep with him? More power to him and them, if that's what they want. But....is it marriage? Not in my opinion. I'm entitled to it, and to vote against it, when it comes up. I'm far from being anti-gay. There are several gay people at work, and I consider them friends. I would not and do not hesitate to hang out with these friends outside of work.

Now....that's just my view. You expressed yours, and I expressed mine. I respect that your's is different, and that's cool. But maybe we could all stop pretending that, just because someone has a different opinion than ours, that it must automatically become labelled as offensive, and we must lash out at them.

You've the right to your opinion....so do I.

Edited December 17, 2004 by PC Painter

December 17, 2004

Where in the world has common sense gone? Get over it, if you want to restrict what people put in the log book...pitch a tent and monitor your cache. Or better yet don't place one if it bothers you to this extent. There are people out there that would like to ban GeoCaching alltogether and we're discussing this like it's a problem..Grow up and enjoy the game.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

December 17, 2004

There's not really a whole lot you can do about it. Sentries at caches is just too much work.

I know there is a lot of angst towards W, but the phrase in itself isn't really offensive, is it?

I did a search on "Family Values for a Stronger America" in google and John Kerry's Website popped up first with "Hometown Values for a Stronger America". Not much difference! So if this is something against "W" than that reasoning is flawed. This phrase seems no different to me than...

"MILK BUILDS STRONG BONES"

What if I am vegian? Just as Jeremy said, "the phrase in itself isn't really offensive, is it?" I think this whole topic is crazy and takes PC to the extreme. I am sick of it. So.........

MERRY CHRISTMAS and GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

P.S. Because of the topic I am sure we have said "Family Values for a Stronger America" and more people have seen it than the logs the guy ever made!!!!

Edited December 17, 2004 by AmishHacker

December 17, 2004

What does a burning cross signify? Did you know the swastika is actually an ancient symbol of good luck? What does it mean if you fly the Confederate Battle flag?

Burning cross on someone's lawn or painting a swastika on a synagogue is a crime.

A family values sticker is not.

Context people, context!

I think that CR meant that you can't blame the non-offensive symbol, for the people that use it. He's right...the swastika in and of itself, was not always a symbol that would evoke such hateful feelings in people. Unfortunately, such horrible and evil things were done, by the people that used it as their symbol for a short time, that it is forever linked to the hatred. A swastika is not evil....it was around before the Nazi's. The Nazi's were evil. Now, unfortunately, the people who paint it on synogogues, are using it for evil purposes.

He was trying to make a connection with the current topic, that the phrase itself, being used, was not bad...but (in some people's eyes), it was being used for bad purposes, by some.

I'll try one more example.... The confederate flag that CR mentioned. If you knew nothing of the US civil war, would the confederate flag offend you? Of course not. It's a flag with some patterns and colors on it. It's the intended USE of the flag, that can be offensive to some. I tend to find it offensive. That's because of my knowledge of US history, my personality, and my personal beliefs. But, if someone who isn't the least bit racist, but believes in a more states-rights-based government (as the confederacy did) uses it, I wouldn't be bothered by it.

38.2k · December 17, 2004

I thought I read somewhere in this thread that in Oregon it's a well known slogan against gay people

Its not. That's just a load of hyperbole.

December 17, 2004

I thought I read somewhere in this thread that in Oregon it's a well known slogan against gay people

That's bias for you. Just because someone says it, doesn't make it true. It's important to understand the difference between a biased and opinionated statement, and actual fact.

One could just as easily say that the slogan is in support of keeping marriage as it is....just as easily as they could say it was against gays.

If someone doesn't believe that abortion is right....does that make them pro-life, or does that make them anti-women's rights? I guess it depends on your perspective, and your side of the fence.....doesn't it?

I'm sick of labels, applied to people, for the sole intent of improperly (and unfairly) targeting people in a negative way. It happens on both sides.

22k · December 17, 2004

I think that CR meant that you can't blame the non-offensive symbol, for the people that use it.

I'm with ya 100%.

and let's not elevate one geocacher and tag them with a social issue thinking we are solving a bigger problem.

24.7k · December 17, 2004

...Imagine the KKK started using the slogan "Unity for a stronger, America" and you started seeing this phrase appear in log books. I imagine you'd be highly offended, there still isn't anything you could do about it, but I can understand being offended by it.

I was going to post, but my thunder was stolen.

Well, said.

E Pluribus Unim.

You can't invalidate a good thing if it comes from a bad source. I would not be offended. First of all I believe in the melting pot, I believe that united we are stronger than divided. If the KKK thinks that their new catchy slogan is going to change my opinoin on a good thing, it's not going to work.

It's entirely possible to be right for the wrong reasons.

Where did Yankee Doodle come from? Why am I not offended to be called a Yankee? I should be per what some people would have me believe in this forum.

December 17, 2004

There's not really a whole lot you can do about it. Sentries at caches is just too much work.

I know there is a lot of angst towards W, but the phrase in itself isn't really offensive, is it?

FYI, the stickers say, "Traditional Family Values for a Strong America," which is the siren call of Christian Fundamentalists and implies several extreme social and religious positions that are, indeed, very offensive to many people. Any relationship to W is coincidental although they were strong supporters so it can sometimes be hard to separate the two in discussions.

Certainly, cache logs cannot be monitored for potentially offensive comments and slogans--even if we could agree what that means!--but it would seem appropriate for Groundspeak to respond to specific complaints about emotionally-charged stickers that appear in hundreds of cache logs.

One test might be if the slogan would be acceptable on these forums or in on-line logs as a signature item. If it is not appropriate here, it should not be in log books, either (ignoring the legal matter of who owns the log book versus the server--we are talking about what is good for the game). For example, which of the following would be appropriate?

"Traditional Family Values for a Strong America."

"Fundamentalist Christian Values for a Strong America."

"Gay Family Values for a Strong America."

"Traditional Family Values for a Weak America."

"Geocachers Supporting Traditional Family Values."

I guess we could have a lot of fun with this but let's not. The point is that if a slogan is judged inappropriate, one thing Groundspeak could do about it is to warn the offender that political, social and religious agendas should be kept out of geocaching. Coming from official game keepers that would have much more weight than player attempts.

A difficult subject to be sure and one I would rather avoid in the context of geocaching.

December 17, 2004

FYI, the stickers say, "Traditional Family Values for a Strong America," which is the siren call of Christian Fundamentalists and implies several extreme social and religious positions that are, indeed, very offensive to many people. Any relationship to W is coincidental although they were strong supporters so it can sometimes be hard to separate the two in discussions.

Certainly, cache logs cannot be monitored for potentially offensive comments and slogans--even if we could agree what that means!--but it would seem appropriate for Groundspeak to respond to specific complaints about emotionally-charged stickers that appear in hundreds of cache logs.

One test might be if the slogan would be acceptable on these forums or in on-line logs as a signature item. If it is not appropriate here, it should not be in log books, either (ignoring the legal matter of who owns the log book versus the server--we are talking about what is good for the game). For example, which of the following would be appropriate?

"Traditional Family Values for a Strong America."

"Fundamentalist Christian Values for a Strong America."

"Gay Family Values for a Strong America."

"Traditional Family Values for a Weak America."

"Geocachers Supporting Traditional Family Values."

I guess we could have a lot of fun with this but let's not. The point is that if a slogan is judged inappropriate, one thing Groundspeak could do about it is to warn the offender that political, social and religious agendas should be kept out of geocaching. Coming from official game keepers that would have much more weight than player attempts.

A difficult subject to be sure and one I would rather avoid in the context of geocaching.

So they're offensive to you....they're not offensive to a huge amount of other people. In the USA, it used to be true that you did NOT have the right to not be offended. If you go through life expecting to not be offended, you're in for a big dissapointment. I'm offended as hell, by things every single day. It's part of life. It sucks...but you can't just tell people what they can and can't say....or can and can't believe. Last I checked, that's what this country was founded on.... right?

December 17, 2004

"Traditional Family Values for a Strong America."
"Fundamentalist Christian Values for a Strong America."

"Gay Family Values for a Strong America."

"Traditional Family Values for a Weak America."

"Geocachers Supporting Traditional Family Values."

.

BTW....why should ANY of these be considered as offensive, if they are simply someone's honest expression of what they believe, think, support?

I can't see ANY of those as offensive. I believe in the first slogan there...and that's just my opinion. However, if I saw ANY of the others, I would recognize them for what they are....other people's opinions. They exist....really...and they're just as valid as yours.

1.8k · December 17, 2004

Sentries at caches is just too much work.

Plus, they tend to get drunk and fall asleep ...

December 17, 2004

Sentries at caches is just too much work.

Plus, they tend to get drunk and fall asleep ...

Well, there's got to be SOME benefits to the job!

9.1k · December 17, 2004

One test might be if the slogan would be acceptable on these forums or in on-line logs as a signature item.

Thanks for a super idea! I've been meaning to change my sig line for awhile. Now, this may get me banned in the Oregon Geocaching Association forums, but I don't post there.

1.8k · December 17, 2004

Sentries at caches is just too much work.

Plus, they tend to get drunk and fall asleep ...

Well, there's got to be SOME benefits to the job!

Maybe we should all get drunk and fall asleep (not together mind you) ...

18.9k · December 17, 2004

FYI, the stickers say, "Traditional Family Values for a Strong America," which is the siren call of Christian Fundamentalists and implies several extreme social and religious positions that are, indeed, very offensive to many people.

Severe??? Extreme???? Wow.......... A great deal of us see those positions as mainstream and typical. (just a point view). Again - if the intent of the stickers was to be mean spirited and hateful than shame on him. If it expresses who he is , it is no worse than many avatars I have seen.

Edited December 17, 2004 by StarBrand

38.2k · December 17, 2004

FYI, the stickers say, "Traditional Family Values for a Strong America," which is the siren call of Christian Fundamentalists and implies several extreme social and religious positions that are, indeed, very offensive to many people

Christian fundimentalists and millions of decent, moderate Americans, many who are non-religious, who believe that marraige is between a man and a woman. A position also supported by noted extremists such as Bill and Hillary Clinton, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, Joe Leiberman, the late Paul Wellstone, Bob Graham, John McCain, Jim Jeffords, Dick Gephart ,Joe Biden, Tom Harkin and Al Gore. Actually its an extreme social position only to those so far to the left that they're not even on the road. Oregon is not known as a Christian fundimentialst state. I think it's what is now called a "blue state" by pundits, yet judging from the election results on this issue, the majority of citizens in Oregon apparently believe that marraige should be between man and a woman. Measure 36, which defined marraige as between a man and a woman, won by a landslide in what is considered to be a "progressive" state. Now who are the extremists again?

Edited December 17, 2004 by briansnat

Use Of Religeous Or Political Stickers In Logs

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