Argh!

[+nfa]

Hi,

 

I live and cache in the Adirondacks, and placing caches on state forest preserve land is not allowed. I don't agree with that policy, but can live with it...

 

I set up a cache, with permission, on the private property of a local business. The cache is not in the store where business is transacted, just on the business's property (about 150 feet away from the store in the grass and sticks of the many acres the business owner owns). Nobody has to buy anything to visit the cache, find the cache, or log the cache. The approver has said that this cache is contrary to gc.com's commercial guidelines...

 

I just don't see it...I've read the guidelines, and they don't seem to apply to this cache...if they do, then there are thousands of other caches in New York State and around the world that are also contrary to the commercial guidelines.

 

I feel as though I'm jumping through extra hoops that the millions of micros in parking lots (of businesses) and scattered throughout cities (near businesses) are for some reason exempt from.

 

Before you flame me about "blah, blah, blah, talk to contact@geocaching.com...", please understand that I have already. The previous approver was the one who denied me the right to place a virtual on this site, saying that it would take up space that should be utilized by a micro...I followed his advice, got permission, placed the micro, and am now in a similar runaround with the new approver.

 

Forgive my frustrated venting...he'll approve it or not (as is his right), I just find the whole thing frustrating...I'm not trying to rob anyone, cheat anyone, or hurt anyone...I'm trying to place caches in a cache poor environment to help the sport, and getting slapped around for my troubles.

 

Sigh...

 

NFA

[WH]

As long as you received the property owners permission, which it seems you have, I dont see the issue.

[+Mastifflover]

As long as you received the property owners permission, which it seems you have, I dont see the issue.

Agreed, how is this different than the Wally world micros or the Starbucks micros that get approved everyday?

[+Team GPSaxophone]

May I ask what the business is?

 

From the information you have supplied, I don't see the problem with it. I've found lightpost caches in front of stores, one even says which store and to come inside and see what they sell.

 

I've placed a cache on the property where I work, however it is a factory with no retail sales involved from the site (not counting the employee cafeteria and gift shop that are only available to those with an employee badge).

 

Based on this, I don't see the reason for your cache to not be approved.

[+Gazza&Girls]

Perhaps the manner in which it is described could be a problem.

[+JMBella]

May I ask what the business is?

It's just an adult novelty shop. What's the problem? Just kidding.

 

Regarding the cache in question I only have One word: STARBUCKS

If you don't know what that means PM me.

 

In other words it should definitely be approved.

[+nfa]

The business is Donnelly's Ice Cream, 6 miles outside of Saranac Lake, with acres of green grass for people to sit on and enjoy one of the most beautiful views in the adirondacks.

 

nfa

[+Team Perks]

It's just an adult novelty shop. What's the problem? Just kidding.

Even caches that really ARE near adult novelty stores can get approved!

 

I stop by there quite often to, um...check on the cache for the owner. Yeah.

 

I don't see anything wrong with this type of hide. Unless your cache page is a great big advertisement for the business, I don't see how it would be construed as commercial in nature. Heck, I've seen caches inside businesses that have managed to get approved...

[+RuffRidr]

I don't see a problem. As others have said, there are thousands of caches out there already like this.

 

--RuffRidr

[+nfa]

I had a notice on the listing saying that although there was a business on site, you didn't have to buy anything to log the cache, but I took it off this morning in case it was miscontrued as an advert by the approver.

Edited May 6, 2004 by NFA

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I had a notice on the listing saying that you didn't have to buy anything to log the cache, but I took it off this morning in case it was miscontrued as an advert by the approver.

You might want to have it say "This cache is on private property, placed with permission. You do not need to enter the nearby store or buy anything to log this cache"

[+joefrog]

I had a notice on the listing saying that you didn't have to buy anything to log the cache, but I took it off this morning in case it was miscontrued as an advert by the approver.

You might want to have it say "This cache is on private property, placed with permission. You do not need to enter the nearby store or buy anything to log this cache"

Ditto that. I had to change wording in one of mine to remove the name of business, and said "nearby you can find...." etc. Worked like a charm.

[+nfa]

You might want to have it say "This cache is on private property, placed with permission. You do not need to enter the nearby store or buy anything to log this cache"

Hi,

 

I have altered the wording such that it now includes your suggestion.

 

Thanks,

 

NFA

 

If only approvers were allowed to give advice on how to improve cache listings

Edited May 6, 2004 by NFA

[+JMBella]

It's just an adult novelty shop. What's the problem? Just kidding.

Even caches that really ARE near adult novelty stores can get approved!

 

I stop by there quite often to, um...check on the cache for the owner. Yeah.

 

I don't see anything wrong with this type of hide. Unless your cache page is a great big advertisement for the business, I don't see how it would be construed as commercial in nature. Heck, I've seen caches inside businesses that have managed to get approved...

And it's not like those were approved all that long ago either. Who's the admin for CA. We like him.

 

If only approvers were allowed to give advice on how to improve cache listings

They are.

 

I would email NJ Admin since he's the one that told you about hiding a micro. Would love to get an approvers point of view here.

[+Renegade Knight]

First the cache is fine and isn't commercial as is widely enforced on this site. Had there been a fee to gain access I've seen that interpreted as commercial consistently. There isn't, and the placed on private land cache is a very real and viable cache type.

 

Second, while it's nice to put that the cache is placed with permission on your page, you have already stated as much in those listing disclaimers you checked off to submit the cache for listing. Having permission from the owner is "adequate permission" In other words duplicating your assertion that you have permission only serves to placate the people who are in the business of second guessing your permission, your cache, your caches reason to be there, and whether or not your cache is lame. It's none of their dadgum business.

[+CO Admin]

<SNIP>Forgive my frustrated venting...he'll approve it or not (as is his right), I just find the whole thing frustrating...I'm not trying to rob anyone, cheat anyone, or hurt anyone...I'm trying to place caches in a cache poor environment to help the sport, and getting slapped around for my troubles.

 

Sigh...

 

NFA

Perhaps you just need to take a breath and relax. The reviewer for your cache posted the following note on your cache.

 

<snip>

I'm placing this cache on hold until I can visit the site, hopefully this weekend. Once I have visited the cache so I better understand the hide I'll present it to the other admins for their opinions on the commercial aspect.

</SNIP>

 

Looks to me like he is going above and beyond the call here. Saying that he is taking the time and trouble to go look at the cache makes me think that this is a person that is really trying to approve this cache. He also indicates that he wants the opinion of other reviewers. This again looks like someone trying to work with you to get the cache approved. Give it a little time.

[+JMBella]

I'm placing this cache on hold until I can visit the site, hopefully this weekend.

 

I'm impressed. Does he get a FTF on that?

[+Gorak]

Sort of makes you wonder how the Timbits Cache and Krispy Kreme cache were able to be approved given the logos on the cache pages and the requirement by the cache owner to go in to the stores in question and purchase a donut. These two caches are clearly commercial caches that, while it may not have been the owners intention, promote the stores they are named after. I guess different approvers have different benchmarks...

[+nfa]

Perhaps you just need to take a breath and relax. The reviewer for your cache posted the following note on your cache.

 

<snip>

I'm placing this cache on hold until I can visit the site, hopefully this weekend. Once I have visited the cache so I better understand the hide I'll present it to the other admins for their opinions on the commercial aspect.

</SNIP>

 

Looks to me like he is going above and beyond the call here. Saying that he is taking the time and trouble to go look at the cache makes me think that this is a person that is really trying to approve this cache. He also indicates that he wants the opinion of other reviewers. This again looks like someone trying to work with you to get the cache approved. Give it a little time.

Hi,

 

First off...{{DEEP BREATH}}

 

Next, I do appreciate his coming out to look at the cache...I hope he had other reasons for visiting the ADKs

 

C) it still seems that this cache is getting more scrutiny than other similar ones I've seen on gc.com ( that being my original point)

 

4) If he really wanted to work with me to get caches approved, he could have given me advice like some of the posters in this forum...instead, he quoted gc.com's commercial cache guideline and inserted some "we can still be friends" material, and buried the part about visiting the site in the middle of it (I didn't notice it until later, see below to understand my confusion...I read the beginning, and then skimmed through the fluff, missing the proposed visit entirely...my bad).

 

Hello, I am an admin with Geocaching.com and I have reviewed this cache for listing on the website. Unfortunately, It appears to be placed in Donnelly's Ice Cream stand. Commercial caches are not permitted.

 

Please consult the guidelines and for placing a cache, found here

 

Commercial Caches / Caches That Solicit

What is a commercial cache? A commercial use of the web site cache reporting tool is an direct or indirect (either intentional or non-intentional) attempt to solicit customers through a geocaching.com listing. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services.

 

I'm placing this cache on hold until I can visit the site, hopefully this weekend. Once I have visited the cache so I better understand the hide I'll present it to the other admins for their opinions on the commercial aspect.

 

Please don't hesitate to respond with an explanation if it's been misjudged or after you've amended it to meet the guidelines. If you have any questions, go to your cache page and email me via the link to my profile on the archive log, or email me directly at newyorkreviewer@hotmail.com . Please be sure to include the caches name and GC# or URL with your email.

Thanks,

New York Admin - geocaching.com

 

NOTE: Do not reply to this email directly. The communication will not be received. To ensure a prompt response, please follow the method of contact described above.

 

Anyway, I am grateful for his attention to detail, his willingness to visit the site, and his being a volunteer. I also appreciate the feedback from people in this forum...we'll see what happens...

 

NFA

[lowracer]

Speaking of commercial caches, here's another that wasn't approved (due to it being a commercial cache) and was instead listed on Nav:

 

http://www.navicache.com/cgi-bin/db/displa...pl?CacheID=4031

 

It should be noted that it is possible to do the cache without paying for anything, and you do not need to present proof of age to order a soft drink or water in these places. You can order a free serving of tap water in the special Geocaching mug.

 

[EDIT: removed solicitation to sign online petition]

 

-mark.

Edited May 6, 2004 by lowracer

[+yumitori]

Looks like a standard reviewer's note to me. Clear and to the point.

 

Also, New York Admin has just joined the team. I rather imagine that they would like to be particularly careful with iffy caches as they get used to being a target for every disgruntled owner who wants things approved yesterday.

 

Your cache hasn't been rejected, just put on hold. Why the rush for public support of your position?

[+mtn-man]

Speaking of commercial caches, here's another that wasn't approved (due to it being a commercial cache) and was instead listed on Nav:

 

http://www.navicache.com/cgi-bin/db/displa...pl?CacheID=4031

 

It should be noted that it is possible to do the cache without paying for anything, and you do not need to present proof of age to order a soft drink or water in these places. You can order a free serving of tap water in the special Geocaching mug.

 

I encourage you to go sign the online petition ( http://www.petitiononline.com/N00FBF/petition.html ) if you agree this cache is worth earning a real geocaching.com smiley for! If the petition gets more than about fifty signatures, would that be significant to present to the folks at geocaching.com to reconsider?

 

-mark.

50 out of 200,000 is 0.025 percent of the users for the site. I would think you would need more like 100,001 people, or over 50 percent of the users, to get some impact. Rather than starting a petition your time may have been better spent writing to the contact address.

 

Also, this topic is about NFA's cache. Please do not tag along on someone else's topic to promote your personal cause.

[lowracer]

50 out of 200,000 is 0.025 percent of the users for the site. I would think you would need more like 100,001 people, or over 50 percent of the users, to get some impact. Rather than starting a petition your time may have been better spent writing to the contact address.

 

Also, this topic is about NFA's cache. Please do not tag along on someone else's topic to promote your personal cause.

OK so how many of those 200,000 users are actually actively caching? How many are sock puppets, and how many have simply given up caching. Don't forget that most people who geocache do not read these forums. I think your 100,001 number is completely outrageous, and I wonder why you propose such a thing. Do other questionable caches require 100,001 thumbs up from the caching population? No, all they require is one of the approvers to reconsider.

 

The topic title is "Argh / Frustrated By Cache Approval." I'd say my post is squarely on topic. The cache in question is not even my cache, so please, your comments about "my personal cause," are neither accurate nor on topic.

[+mtn-man]

There are actually much more that 200,000 registered accounts, so I dropped the number to 200,000 to account for that. NFA is frustrated by his cache listing, not a cache in TX. I can see the relevance of that cache as an example to the topic, but the advertisement of the petition is not.

I encourage you to go sign the online petition ( link ) if you agree this cache is worth earning a real geocaching.com smiley for!

That is a solicitation.

[the 5 little bears]

Sort of makes you wonder how the Timbits Cache and Krispy Kreme cache were able to be approved given the logos on the cache pages and the requirement by the cache owner to go in to the stores in question and purchase a donut. These two caches are clearly commercial caches that, while it may not have been the owners intention, promote the stores they are named after. I guess different approvers have different benchmarks...

I cant believe that person got away with that. You have to buy a doughnut!!!!!! If that is not comercial then nothing is.

[lowracer]

There are actually much more that 200,000 registered accounts, so I dropped the number to 200,000 to account for that.  NFA is frustrated by his cache listing, not a cache in TX.  I can see the relevance of that cache as an example to the topic, but the advertisement of the petition is not.

 

I encourage you to go sign the online petition ( link ) if you agree this cache is worth earning a real geocaching.com smiley for!

That is a solicitation.

I'm withdrawing the request for people to sign the petition. Solicitations are not permitted in the forums. My mistake. Please strike that from the record.

 

We have a few other caches here similar to (and some perhaps more 'commercial' than) the NFA cache: The "Austin Chicken Fried Steak Tour" series (GCHC28 and GCH13W), each hidden on property owned by restaurants, and "But Where's The Sheriff" (GCH3NW) which is actually hidden IN the outdoor dining area of a restaurant. There's "Let Me Count The Ways" (GCGN7B), which is hidden ON the building of a restaurant. No purchases are required for these caches. Some were placed with permission, some not. There are many other examples; these are just the ones that come readily to mind.

Edited May 6, 2004 by lowracer

[+nfa]

Hi,

 

just to comment on another topic related to this one...

 

this cache definitely falls within the "frisbee rule" type of area...I actually have seen people throwing a frisbee in the area where the cache is placed.

 

nfa

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

I'm placing this cache on hold until I can visit the site, hopefully this weekend. Once I have visited the cache so I better understand the hide I'll present it to the other admins for their opinions on the commercial aspect.

Wow, newbie mod. Actually I hope this doesn't become a trend or we'll never get caches approved.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I'm placing this cache on hold until I can visit the site, hopefully this weekend. Once I have visited the cache so I better understand the hide I'll present it to the other admins for their opinions on the commercial aspect.

Wow, newbie mod. Actually I hope this doesn't become a trend or we'll never get caches approved.

[bug and snake]

NFA, I believe you have more than made your case. You have just fallen, by bad luck, on the wrong timeing. I can understand how a new approver would be a little nervous. He has his frustrations to. If your cache had been looked at by a more experienced approver you would possibly have had a question or two and then a 'yes'.

Cut the guy a little slack. Looks to me that it will go through with no probs when he has seen it.

It's strangely funny to think what will happen if the approvers decide to visit EVERY cache before giving a 'thumbs up', but it will stop the future cache density problems dead in their tracks!!!

[+briansnat]

Considering all the commerical spots (Walmart lots, Burger Kings, Starbucks, et. al. ) that get approved easily, I don't see why NFA is getting such a hard time about this one. Especially since its in an area where the state has made it very hard to hide on public lands.

[+SixDogTeam]

I don't understand why the approver can't get a feel for the cache thru communication--It doesn't sound to me like it requires a visit!

[+Renegade Knight]

Geocaching related solicitations seem to be ok even if they are political.

 

"Join my group", "Help me with my cache", "Please give me free advice I'm a newbie" , "Can you help me get my cache approved", "Hey I need a GPS for education", "Can someone help me with a grant?", "My son needs a broken GPS", "Go to Clayjars chat, the unofficial official chat location", “Can someone help me with a presentation?”, “Lets write a letter to park X who just banned caches.”

 

There are more blatant endorsements and solicitations but that’s enough. I can’t tell if mtn-man was joking or serious but I think he was a little of both. BTW though I agree with the petition on general principal I think that’s a commercial cache due to the order you are directed to make. That Doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea or a good cache.

[+nfa]

my last cache, on my own property up here, took about 2 weeks to get approved

 

nfa

[+JMBella]

I think that’s a commercial cache due to the order you are directed to make. That Doesn't’t mean it’s not a good idea or a good cache

 

I have to agree. As I understand it, if you have to approach someone in a commercial environment, you MAY feel obligated to order more than tap water. I remember hearing something about old caches where you had to walk up to the bartender and give him a "code word" to get the coords to the cache (or something like that). the problem was that you may feel obligated to order a drink. That definitely crosses the line of a commercial cache IMO. Like RK said that doesn't make it a bad idea, in fact I think it's a really cool idea, but it's not with in the guidelines of this site.

 

To our new admins credit, I've already had a cache denied by him/her (actually NJ was involved too). However it was handled very respectfully and although I debated it for a while in the end I could not argue with the final decision. I'm not sure what my point is except to say, lets give him/her some time to get their feet wet. I'm sure a lot of this is new and he/she needs to figure out some of the parameters yet. Let's be patient, although in some cases it may take longer to get a cache approved, in the long run we in NY will benefit from having out own admin.

[+GeoKender]

The business is Donnelly's Ice Cream, 6 miles outside of Saranac Lake, with acres of green grass for people to sit on and enjoy one of the most beautiful views in the adirondacks.

 

NFA....

I went to PSC up there 15 yrs ago. Is Donnelly's towards Lake Placid or the college from Saranac Lake?

 

As part of my college program, I remember doing maintaince work on some of the lean-to's around Osgood Pond and Lower St. Regis around the campus. Beautiful trail systems throughout the Adirondacks. My most memorable Adirondack hikes were up Whiteface, Mt. Marcy and St. Regis.

 

And who can forget them COLD winters at "the coldest place in the US"!

Is the Hole In The Wall still in business there?

 

-GeoKender

[+Polgara]

I love the Adirondacks, I used to go up there snow mobiling in the Old Forge area and Big Moose Lake in the winters. I don't think I've ever seen so much snow in my life! It was very pretty, and VERY VERY cold.

 

...I think that cache is a cool idea, and so what if its near an icecream stand, who wouldn't want an icecream, while taking in the view of the Adirondacks? How much could a cone cost?

 

Some state parks charge an admission fee for people to enter. I would bet an icecream is cheaper than a park fee , and more enjoyable too!

Edited May 7, 2004 by Polgara

[+fizzymagic]

Am I the only one who thinks that the email from the approver to the OP was obnoxious and disrespectful? It says, in essence, "Your cache is commercial. Obviously you didn't bother to read the guidelines. Go read them and then if you still think you have a case you can beg me to approve it."

 

The tone of that email is, to my mind, completely unacceptable. Email from the approvers should be professional, respectful, and polite. I do not think that it was any of the above.

[+briansnat]

It says, in essence,

"Your cache is commercial. Obviously you didn't bother to read the guidelines. Go read them and then if you still think you have a case you can beg me to approve it."

 

I read it to say "Your cache appears to be commercial and in violation of the guidelines. I will personally take time out of my day to check out the spot to see whether this is true. Meanwhile, if you think I'm mistaken let me know why."

Edited May 7, 2004 by briansnat

[+bumblingbs]

Sounds like it could be worked out with a little more communication. Somehow, the approver has the idea that the cache is IN the ice cream stand. Did you write back, and explain, as you did to us, that it's 150 feet away?

While it's not technically necessary to mention the great views and frisbee potential, they might help, too.

[+protocoldroid]

IMHO, the ADK's needs -more- geocaches, as they are pretty few and far between -- most of the land up there is a nat'l forest, no?!? I would've thought (knee-jerk-mental-reaction) that if the cache was on -private- land in the adirondacks... man, that it would've been a perfect candidate for being approved.

 

Anyhow... I hope, in the future, the approver reads your forum posts NFA -- to see that you actually care a lot about geocaching in the adirondacks, and from what I can see, wouldn't do anything to jeapordize (sp?) geocaching upstate.

 

It's actually pretty cool that they'll visit your cache... but, if you're like me... the faster it's approved, that happier camper you are

[+Team Perks]

    And it's not like those were approved all that long ago either. Who's the admin for CA. We like him. 

I've met SoCalAdmin on a few occasions. He's a great guy, and a very reasonable approver. He certainly plays by the rules (he's called us on a couple of our cache hides) but has always been able to work toward a compromise...which is commendable given the steady stream of new caches in California.

[+briansnat]

most of the land up there is a nat'l forest, no?!? I would've thought (knee-jerk-mental-reaction) that if the cache was on -private- land in the adirondacks... man, that it would've been a perfect candidate for being approved.

 

Its not national forest. If it were, that would be great because most of them allow geocaching. The Adirondacks are mostly NY state forest preserve, managed by the DEC. Forest preserve is a special status that is codfied in NY's constitution.

 

I think that because most public land there is forest preserve land and off limits to geocaching, that geocachers up there should get a little more slack when they do find places for caches.

[+protocoldroid]

Its not national forest. [snip] Adirondacks are mostly NY state forest preserve, managed by the DEC.  Forest preserve is a special status that is codfied in NY's constitution.

ah ha, thank you for the clarification. forest preserve, not national forest. i knew that caches were somehow forbid on that land, but... i guess i was confuzzled to the exact nature why, thx!

Edited May 7, 2004 by protocoldroid

[+JMBella]

Am I the only one who thinks that the email from the approver to the OP was obnoxious and disrespectful?

 

Uuum.... yes.