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Permission Not Granted...


KaiserKlan

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I would like to solicit a proper responses to the park board that denied allowing me to place a geocache with the following note. This is about the most lame excuse I've ever heard so I would like help crafting a polite response one that would maybe change their minds.

 

"Keith & Deb,

 

Your request to place a geocache in Neill Park has been forwarded to me. After discussing your request with the Parks Director we have decided that it wouldn't be in the best interest of the park to allow you to place your geocache there.  While you have stated that no damage will be done to the environment we feel that by allowing your request, it opens us up to allow the next request for something similar that may be damaging to the environment.  We can't allow one party to do something in a park and then say no to someone else.  In other words, where would we draw the line?  I'm sorry that we are unable to accomodate you."

 

In my opinion saying no to something because of what someone else may or may not do is criminal, so please give me some good ideas to help show them some wisdom.

 

Thanks

 

  :o:(

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:(

I don't have anything constructive to say. i just want to register my disgust.

I think the "slippery slope" argument is the laziest, most intellectually dishonest type of argument one can make.

Do they ban people from holding hands in the park because they don't want anyone having sex there?

Ridiculous. If they don't want geocaches there, I'd rather get no explanation than that one.

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I would ask for a meeting as was suggested. There may be more to their decision. I read where they said that they could not "allow you to place your geocache there." Not sure what they meant by "There". Maybe the specific area is sensitive for one reason or the other and they did not articulate their reason very well and there may be an alternate location that would be better. Worth a try.

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Tell them your glad they have an equal park use policy, and understand the concern a possiable unknown number of cachers/caches this is causing. But that you would be happy to help them design a geocaching policy to help meet their goals of allowing caching while being fair to everyone.

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In my opinion saying no to something because of what someone else may or may not do is criminal, so please give me some good ideas to help show them some wisdom.

 

Actually it isn't. :(

 

I'd like to add a smug "See what you get for asking!?" but.....oh what the hell, <smug>See what you get for asking?</smug>

 

:o

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I agree with the other opinions on this thread. Request the meeting and take examples of caches placed in other parks.

 

I would like to add that if you know of any caches that have been officially approved, bring those to highlight your point. Include the names and numbers of the people that approved. And if there is any sort of official policy in place for other parks or counties, bring that as well.

 

Just make sure you go to your meeting prepared. If they still have that view, get a meeting with their boss. Just keep going up the chain of command.

 

F_M

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So far my favorite response is to help them set up a policy for geocaching, this seems both reasonable and doable. This cache is in Minnesota, but it is a local park not a state or national park so this very well may be the best possible solution. Any other ideas are still welcome I would love to hear them. So keep them coming.

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Here is a link to the Maryland Geocaching Society's park guidelines. Not all parks in MD require any form of approval, but state parks and several county parks do. Take a look if you like, you could draft this up and take it with you. Could show that you are serious about getting guidelines made, and are interested in making geocaching an officially approved activity.

 

F_M

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Tell them your glad they have an equal park use policy, and understand the concern a possible unknown number of cachers/caches this is causing. But that you would be happy to help them design a geocaching policy to help meet their goals of allowing caching while being fair to everyone.

That may be the best idea so far. Along with setting up a meeting with that persons "higher-up". Sounds like they just need to be educated.

 

Don't take this the wrong way but, Is there a specific reason why you thought you needed permission in this particular park?

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I would send them a thank you note and invite them to participate in the CI/TO that you're holding in the next county over, ie. the one that allows geocaching and likes people picking up their parks.

Best idea yet!!! Make them reallize what they are potentially missing out on.

 

Only thing that could top this is to organize a fundraiser to build a new pavillion or other building for that park that does allow caching.

 

F_M

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The question was asked;

"Don't take this the wrong way but, Is there a specific reason why you thought you needed permission in this particular park?"

 

I request permission as a matter of policy, while many other parks in this same city have geocaches in them, I doubt any one else bothered to ask. In addition I'm pretty sure it's a policy of geocaching.com to post only approved caches.. but this may be up for interpretation.

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In addition I'm pretty sure it's a policy of geocaching.com to post only approved caches.. but this may be up for interpretation.

 

Its not. They require that "you have adequate permission to hide your cache". If there are no rules against geocaching, or reglating it, you already have adequate permission and are good to go.

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In addition I'm pretty sure it's a policy of geocaching.com to post only approved caches.. but this may be up for interpretation.

 

Its not. They require that "you have adequate permission to hide your cache". If there are no rules against geocaching, or reglating it, you already have adequate permission and are good to go.

Bingo. IMO, the only real reason your cache was denied was simply because you asked. They just needed to come up with a lame excuse so there you have it. At this point all can do is go over their head.

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In addition I'm pretty sure it's a policy of geocaching.com to post only approved caches.. but this may be up for interpretation.

 

Its not. They require that "you have adequate permission to hide your cache". If there are no rules against geocaching, or reglating it, you already have adequate permission and are good to go.

Bingo. IMO, the only real reason your cache was denied was simply because you asked. They just needed to come up with a lame excuse so there you have it. At this point all can do is go over their head.

That's not what I'd do...

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So far my favorite response is to help them set up a policy for geocaching, this seems both reasonable and doable. This cache is in Minnesota, but it is a local park not a state or national park so this very well may be the best possible solution.

There are three county park systems in Minnesota that we know of that permit Geocaching. You'll find them listed at this link. Perhaps you can use these as starting points to jointly develop a policy with your local manager.

 

Steve

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Keith & Deb,

 

Your request to place a geocache in the park has been forwarded to me. After discussing your request with the Parks Director we have decided that it wouldn't be in the best interest of the park to allow you to place your geocache there. While you have stated that no damage will be done to the environment we feel that by allowing your request, it opens us up to allow the next request for something similar that may be damaging to the environment. We can't allow one party to do something in a park and then say no to someone else. In other words, we have decided to stop people coming into the park completely because if we allow one person to come in, then, the NEXT person might bring a machine gun (or even an atomic bomb) and kill us all. We are intending to write to all the other park authorities in the entire universe recomending that they also close their parks to the public for the same reason. What do you people think you are? Just because a park is called 'public' doesn't mean you can use it for recreational purposes! It is my job to keep the place clean and neat don't you know. As far as I am concerned GEO means GET EVERYONE OUT and if I see you in MY park again I will 'ca(t)ch(e)' you and you will hung up by your thumbs till you see some sense. I'm sorry that we are unable to accomodate you.

Edited by bug&snake
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Not saying do it but, If I had that persons E-mail address I bet a large group of organized outdoor's people could send 2000 to 5000 Emails to him requesting information about GeoCaches (OOPS) :( outdoor activities in local public parks. I wonder if this could work on the state or National level also.

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I would hide one or more in spite of him.  There is no law against geocaching and he doesn't make the law.  Fudge him.

That certainly would reflect a positive light on geocaching! :( So, let me see if I understand your position, Criminal. One should never ask permission to place a cache because, well... 'fudge them.' After all, if they didn't want caches in their parks, they should have made it known that that was their policy, right? On the other hand, if they ever do let us know that they have a policy not allowing caches in their parks, place one anyway because, well... 'fudge them.'

 

Seems logical. :o

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After all, if they didn't want caches in their parks, they should have made it known that that was their policy, right?

 

Well, actually. Yes they should. They have no problem telling us No dogs, No Vehicles beyond this point, No Swimming, No camping, etc...

 

On the other hand, if they ever do let us know that they have a policy not allowing caches in their parks, place one anyway because, well... 'fudge them.'

 

I questioned that logic myself, But that letter, in and of itself, does not implement a policy. It's simply one persons answer to a question in which he may not even have the authority to answer. So, with that I have to agree there is still no policy.

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I would hide one or more in spite of him.  There is no law against geocaching and he doesn't make the law.  Fudge him.

That certainly would reflect a positive light on geocaching! :( So, let me see if I understand your position, Criminal. One should never ask permission to place a cache because, well... 'fudge them.' After all, if they didn't want caches in their parks, they should have made it known that that was their policy, right? On the other hand, if they ever do let us know that they have a policy not allowing caches in their parks, place one anyway because, well... 'fudge them.'

 

Seems logical. :o

Read the email he sent. He thinks everyone is so freaking stupid that such a lame rational will be accepted. Well, I don’t accept it. Geocaching is a game about stealth, and stealth is the way I will continue to play it.

 

I would never have asked, and guess what Sherlock, someone else who doesn’t ask will have a hide in that very park someday. Then what, is the rejected cacher going to narc him out and start a “your cache is trash” war? I hope not, because that’s far more damaging than playing namby pamby with some moron who thinks he owns the dadgum park.

 

This isn’t new; I’ve made my position on this very clear for three years now. If GC.com had a problem with it, I’m sure they would tell me.

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I would hide one or more in spite of him.  There is no law against geocaching and he doesn't make the law.  Fudge him.

That certainly would reflect a positive light on geocaching! :( So, let me see if I understand your position, Criminal. One should never ask permission to place a cache because, well... 'fudge them.' After all, if they didn't want caches in their parks, they should have made it known that that was their policy, right? On the other hand, if they ever do let us know that they have a policy not allowing caches in their parks, place one anyway because, well... 'fudge them.'

 

Seems logical. :o

Uh oh. As much as I disagree and deplore Criminal's apparent stance on this particular example, lets not derail the thread. I applaud the permission attempt and think that if you felt permission was warranted, then it was.

 

Request a meeting. Take the education approach. Show that you are willing to compromise and work with them, and I can't imagine they will out right reject you, especially once you've had a chance to explain the benefits of geocaching. Its a whole different ballgame when its a person standing in their office, expressing an idea than a computer screen filled with words.

 

Good luck! Stay level headed and persist. Its worked for us, and made a few new cachers in the process :o

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That certainly would reflect a positive light on geocaching!  So, let me see if I understand your position, Criminal. One should never ask permission to place a cache because, well... 'fudge them.' After all, if they didn't want caches in their parks, they should have made it known that that was their policy, right? On the other hand, if they ever do let us know that they have a policy not allowing caches in their parks, place one anyway because, well... 'fudge them.'

 

Seems logical. 

 

I think what Criminal is trying to say, in his criminal way (pardon the stupid rhyming) is that as a general rule of life, you're usually more sucessful asking for forgiveness than asking for permission. :(

 

This park clearly does not understand Geocaching and is afraid of opening Pandora's Box. The end result is a non-official "no". There may be much more sucess to be gained once you can say that the park has been used for Geocaching for 3 years... Did you even notice? Can you find any sort of negative impact?

 

Of course, in parks like this one must be extra careful to place Geocaches responsibly. Avoid sensitive environments, maintain the caches, etc or the "ask forgiveness" approach falls flat on its face.

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Request a meeting. Take the education approach. Show that you are willing to compromise and work with them,

 

I definitely agree, but I have to add Don't compromise too much! I've seen a lot of odd and rediculous rules imposed by parks that don't help either side's cause. Avoid compromises through education.

 

Acceptable compromises include a NO CHARGE approval and registration process. We don't want to unknowingly place caches in fragile environments and it is perfectly understandable for the park to have a contact who assumes maintenance responsibility. Even if this contact is MIA, I'm sure Geocaching.com would alter a cache listing to request removal or assumtion of responsibility on the land authority's request. Also requiring a label indicating that it is a Geocaching "Official Gamepiece" is understandable to avoid overreactions by accidental finders (i.e. ammo boxes).

 

Compromises I'd call unacceptable include regular visits by cache owner (cache condition is inherantly reported by the finders), annual registration stickers (they can look at the find logs if they want to insure it's still in use), transparent containers (that's beyond acceptable terrorist paranoia), registration fees (some people will be offended that their activity involves fees and others don't, the backlash would defeat the registration)

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QUOTE (woo2 @ Feb 17 2004, 10:08 PM)

...or the "ask forgiveness" approach falls flat on its face.

 

Isn't this always a risk???

 

Yes, but the dynamics have completely changed. When asking permission, the whole thing can be stopped with the two letter word "no". When asking forgiveness, to stop the whole thing they have to take action to undo all that has been done. Letting it continue only requires the two letter word "ok".

 

It completely reverses who has the burden of effort and that often makes the difference in what answer is given. ...devious, isn't it! :(

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That letter is truly a classic! I am amazed at the number of suggestions on this thread to the effect of trying to win him over by demonstration and education. That approach presupposes that the guy has at least half an ounce of intelligence. Good luck. Good thing he’s got a government job, that’s all I can say.

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You may want to look at this it is Public Lands

 

BLM PUBLIC LANDS

Just like GEO*Trailblazer 1 suggested, ask them if the park system operates under United States Department of the Interior Bureau of land Management. If they answer “yes” educate them on Instruction Memorandum No. 2003-182. You will not be able to go much higher up the “chain of command” than Bud Cribley, Acting Assistant Director – Renewable Resources and Planning.

 

IF they fall under this department, sounds like this should be the end of the discussion.

 

Click on Geo*Trailblazer 1's link, and you can read the full memo.

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Locally, a cacher tried to get permission from the director of a county-owned equestrian park to place a cache on one of their trails. During a face-to-face meeting, the director said that the park was only to be used for equestrian-related purposes. The cacher argued that the general public does use the park for other things (hiking and even a monster-truck show, for example) and tried using the frisbee logic. It fell on deaf ears.

 

He then tried going up the ladder to that person's boss. He could not get a return phone call.

 

He then went up the ladder another rung, and that person's boss told him he'd look into it and would come up with a decision "by the ned of the month." After two months, there was no answer.

 

The cacher then contacted a County Commisioner who, in turn, called the county parks director to set up a meeting for the cacher. After discussing the specifics of Geocaching and the response from the director of this specific park, the county parks director gave across-the-board approval for Geocaching in all county parks.

 

Two things strike me about this: 1) you have to talk to someone who's high enough up the ladder to not be afraid to say "yes;" 2) why in the world would this county need two layers of supervisors between the director of a specific park and the parks director??? :(

 

(edited for typo)

Edited by OneOfEm
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Hi,

 

I would request a meeting with this person and the parks director. They made the decision, and given the "answer", I would want to talk to both to understand their reasoning.

 

Without knowing the history of this park, what's the deal here? Some would and could argue that a park itself has negative environmental impact. How does allowing Geocaching start this park system down the road to "environmentally negative" activities? Seems like some education and cooperation are needed here.

 

The one negative that exists here is the ban the state placed on Geocaching at State Parks. I don't know if there's been any movement on getting that changed, but it is something that you might run into. If they cite that, ask them how the state's actions are influencing their's.

 

I expected some folks would argue that the act of asking permission would lead to a "no". It can happen, but there's a whole lot of "yes" decisions being made as well. Don't forget that, or the policy here about getting permission. I'm not saying that you need to seek it if the park system has a policy that supports caching, AND doesn't require permission. Sometimes, "fudge them" ends up being a "fudge you".

 

Woo2 mentioned some "unacceptable compromises". If the park requires annual registration, regular visits, or clear containers, those are reasonable. There have been discussions here about some of those things. A permit fee is a bit much.

 

Don't give up yet.

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I'm with Criminal on this.  Do you write your park for permission if you want to play Frisbee in "there" park?  Personally, I don't.  If there are rules against playing frisbee, then by all means I'll take my flying disk somewhere else.  Same concept as far as I'm concerned

True, to an extent. The difference is you don't leave the Frisbee behind. You take it home with you.

 

If you did want to leave it behind, it would only make sense to ask permission to do so. Otherwise, you can bet groundskeepers will either take it home with them or trash it. Case in point: the last cache we placed was in an area where the permission requirement was at best fuzzy (to us anyway). We went ahead and asked anyway. It turns out, that was the best thing we could have done, as there is a standing order to remove any and all "foreign" objects from this area. There is even a book that they keep, cataloging everything that should be there, and everything that was removed. As a result of asking, our cache was added to that book, and has become a fixture of the area.

 

As mentioned above, who you talk to makes all the difference in the world. This isn't the military in that you must follow the chain of command up. You might try just finding the highest level official (ain't the web great?) and go directly to them. In my case, I shot too high: I initially spoke with the President of this organization, who directed me to the correct person, with a blessing by the way.

 

True enough regarding compromise. I think I meant that it behooves you to show a willingness to work with the person. The compromises made on both sides are as unique as the situation. Its hard to dictate hard fast compromise rules here.

Edited by CacheCreatures
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I'm with Criminal on this.  Do you write your park for permission if you want to play Frisbee in "there" park?  Personally, I don't.  If there are rules against playing frisbee, then by all means I'll take my flying disk somewhere else.  Same concept as far as I'm concerned

True, to an extent. The difference is you don't leave the Frisbee behind. You take it home with you.

 

If you did want to leave it behind, it would only make sense to ask permission to do so. Otherwise, you can bet groundskeepers will either take it home with them or trash it. Case in point: the last cache we placed was in an area where the permission requirement was at best fuzzy. We went ahead and asked anyway. It turns out, that was the best thing we could have done, as there is a standing order to remove any and all "foreign" objects from this area. There is even a book that they keep, cataloging everything that should be there, and everything that was removed. As a result of asking, our cache was added to that book, and has become a fixture of the area.

 

As mentioned above, who you talk to makes all the difference in the world. This isn't the military in that you must follow the chain of command up. You might try just finding the highest level official (ain't the web great?) and go directly to them. In my case, I shot too high: I initially spoke with the President of this organization, who directed me to the correct person, with a blessing by the way.

 

True enough regarding compromise. I think I meant that it behooves you to show a willingness to work with the person. The compromises made on both sides are as unique as the situation. Its hard to dictate hard fast rules here.

Well, if you deplored my other comments, try this one on:

 

Good for you! I love to hear stories with endings such as that. You spoke intelligently to an intelligent park employee and were treated with intelligence and respect. That works out best for all concerned.

 

The email example above is an example of monumental disrespect from the park employee directed at a person who felt he was doing the right thing. I would no more tolerate that crap than I would if he were to say it to my face. If you don’t find that “reason” completely insulting then there isn’t much that would offend you. I would have been mortified to receive that. His job is to serve the public, not try to deflect responsibility.

Edited by Criminal
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I believe the answer is much simpler than "should we ask permission, etc" that this is slowly getting back into.

 

The original e-mail simply asked "In other words, where would we draw the line?".

 

You should e-mail them back:

 

----

In regards to your question "where would we draw the line", I believe you should draw the line at damaging the environment. You clearly recognize that my activity will not damage the environment. You are clearly worried that my activity will be used as precedent argument for a similar activity which does harm the environment. It is easy to selectively deny the second activity's access to your park, because of its harm to the environment. That is where you draw the line.

-----

 

It is easy to fight a "slippery slope" illogic because the slope in question is usually never infinite. At any point along the slope, you can place a gate which keeps some things on one side and not the other. In this case, it is very simple, since they are worried that the next person would harm the environment (but recognize that you will not), then that is where the gate is placed for future decisions. Of course, this requires a bit of critical thinking which they have not yet chosen to utilize in responding in the first place. This does not mean they are not capable of it.

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Well, if you deplored my other comments, try this one on:

 

Good for you! I love to hear stories with endings such as that. You spoke intelligently to an intelligent park employee and were treated with intelligence and respect. That works out best for all concerned.

 

The email example above is an example of monumental disrespect from the park employee directed at a person who felt he was doing the right thing. I would no more tolerate that crap than I would if he were to say it to my face. If you don’t find that “reason” completely insulting then there isn’t much that would offend you. I would have been mortified to receive that. His job is to serve the public, not try to deflect responsibility.

Ahh there we go! You expect to much Criminal. Lower your expectations, and I think you'll find yourself far less angry. In this case, he is dealing with someone who clearly works for their $40,000 a year, goes home and forgets about their "job". How can you expect someone like that to "care". The answer he got was perfectly in line with what is to be expected, given the level of employee. In other words, if you went up to the groundskeeper and asked permission from him, would you get all upset when he gave you a blank stare and waved you off? I'm not excusing this, I'm simply pointing out a reality.

 

When you climb the chain, what are you doing? Your connecting with someone who has more and more public exposure and responsibility (read accountability). If this email was received from the person directly appointed by the Governor of the state, now you can get pissed. You'd have every right to take that response to your Governor and yell and scream at their office. Watch the response you get.

 

I think we do agree after all. However, I have yet to be disappointed, because I've never set my expectations to high given the situation.

 

When you think about it, it really is a sad commentary on our society, no?

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The email example above is an example of monumental disrespect from the park employee directed at a person who felt he was doing the right thing. I would no more tolerate that crap than I would if he were to say it to my face. If you don’t find that “reason” completely insulting then there isn’t much that would offend you. I would have been mortified to receive that. His job is to serve the public, not try to deflect responsibility.

I very much agree with this.....

 

We are in the process if contacting the actual Parks Director of this community to see if Jon actually talked to him. When this is done I will share the responses we get from the city.

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Geocaching is here to stay. Now that permission has been brought up the park can choose to allow it per their terms and conditions or have it thrust upon them by people who don't know to ask, or don't care to ask for permission.

 

The mistake in logic is that they think that 'you' are geocaching. You aren't, you are one piece of the larger sport who took the time to do the right thing. The rest of the collective is coming and the park will be assimilated either with legitimate caches or rogue caches. They have a decision to make and you were just the tip of the iceburg.

 

So far the people I've worked with are starved for money and interest. They want people to use their trails and parks. That's why they built them. Geocaching serves their purpose just as well as playing frisbee or having a picnic.

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