SE7EN Posted January 10, 2004 Posted January 10, 2004 While I just got through posting a note about the idea of using codewords to prevent cheating, I came up with another idea. This idea solves a couple of problems, absentee owners and cheaters that take advantage of it. Here's how it works: There is a button on each log that says "I Challenge This Log." The button is only visible if you've logged a find on the cache--some protection from false challenges. Once the button is clicked, there is a place to put the reason for the challenge. The challenge can optionally be anonymous, but it will probably be obvious who it is. There is an optional, cache-owner-set password to issue the challenge--further protection against false challenges. The cache owner or an approver can clear the challenge, but the challenge is never removed. The ruling will always stand. Reason: to head off future challenges of the same nature. The challengee can refute the challenge publicly or privately. The challenged can't return the challenge until cleared. Advantages to this scheme: Normally a cacher will not need the code word, therefore no extra work on a normal cacher. If he is not checking the log, then there is really no need to have the code word. Allows for anyone to challenge the log, not just the cache owner. Gets the community at large involved in policing each other and keeping people honest. No need for anyone to run to TPTB and complain "so-and-so is cheating." The question would be, does a challenge temporarily remove that person's find? I'm leaning towards, yes. While the find in dispute, it shouldn't count. He can leave it and loose the find. The challengee can refute the challenge. He can go back out and take a picture of the cache page and post it to his log. Other cachers can go out to check the log and post notes that indeed he signed the log. Then if the owner or an approver is satisfied the find is legitimate, the challenge is resolved and the find re-instated. In the meantime, the cache is returned to the search list with a question mark in place of the check mark to show he has a cache log in dispute. (Or maybe a ! instead.) Thoughts?
+DustyJacket Posted January 10, 2004 Posted January 10, 2004 No offense intended, but.... Is there a problem of false logs happening a lot? It seems like a lot of posts have happened recently concerning ideas to prevent false logging. I am wondering if there really is a widespread problem, or is this just wasted effort. I just go caching when I can, and let cheaters deal with their empty "victories".
SE7EN Posted January 10, 2004 Author Posted January 10, 2004 No offense intended, but.... Is there a problem of false logs happening a lot? It seems like a lot of posts have happened recently concerning ideas to prevent false logging. I am wondering if there really is a widespread problem, or is this just wasted effort. I just go caching when I can, and let cheaters deal with their empty "victories". No offense taken. You are most probably right. The effort would outweigh the benefit. This was really a mental exercise. But, since, we're not doing the work to get it programmed... If Jeremy were doing it all over again, do you think it would be a good way to cut down on cheating and the resulting complaints? My significant other does accuse me of wasting time. I call it workin' the noggin!
+Halden Posted January 10, 2004 Posted January 10, 2004 Cheating has come up several times since I've joined, Why? I don't really ever check others find counts and it doesn't really affect me. If they wanna cheat well it's lame but my caching goes on. just my input.
+bons Posted January 10, 2004 Posted January 10, 2004 I sense a lot of posting notes in the future and tracking my finds with Watcher. Personally, I fear the real result from at least one jerk will be will be "If you want to play cop, I'll play robber. My proof that I found the cache is that it's now in my basement." It's hard to work together as a community when we seem focused on distrust and accusing each other.
+Darkmoon Posted January 10, 2004 Posted January 10, 2004 No matter what one does to protect the valididity of finds, someone will sooner or later come up with a way to cheat! Look at th new bills we have to stop the crooks from making their own money, works for about a week or so and then they figure out how to do it! It will just keep honest people honest, the cheaters will always cheat. I do this game for my own pleasure and if there are cheaters so be it...who are they cheating anyway? It is an idea that merits some thought but I don't agree totally with it. Just my 2 cents worth. Darkmoon
+fivegallon Posted January 10, 2004 Posted January 10, 2004 Can you really cheat at this? I would have thought most of us were mature enough to be beyond such pettiness. Cheaters don't cheat other people,they cheat themselves. Leave 'em be,ignore 'em. Lets play and have fun. It's very sad to even feel a need to post about this subject.I feel sick.
+DustyJacket Posted January 10, 2004 Posted January 10, 2004 Lots of cachers don't bring paper out in the field. They couldn't remember a bunch of codes. Heck, some have a hard time posting their finds on-line to the correct cache.
+res2100 Posted January 10, 2004 Posted January 10, 2004 If someone feels the need to cheat and say they found a cache when they didn't, let them...they are just cheating themselves. If user X logs something, it really shouldn't be any of my business to criticize him. I think we should all also take a step back and reflect that this is supposed to be a game of having fun, enjoying nature, experiencing new things. Reflecting back over the last year and beyond since I started this wonderful activity, I found that a lot has changed (some for the better, but not everything), with many becoming sticklers and nit picky about really minor stuff, whereas when we started there was more leeway and creativity...and it was encouraged. I also see a lot of hostility in the forums, especially to anyone trying to go away from the norm, which I think is too bad. I have met a lot of other geocachers on the trails and at events, and each and every one of them have been very nice people, something that does not always reflect in the forums. So lets keep it fun, and enjoy it for ourselves...and not worry about some other user trying to cheat. Another cacher's word should mean something and we should give them the benefit of the doubt and trust them...afterall, they didn't steal a cache container, which would be a lot worse that posting some inaccurate log. ...the best gift you can give a child, is your time...
+Eric K Posted January 10, 2004 Posted January 10, 2004 I think Darmoon summed it up best. No matter what type of system is in place someone will find some way around it. For those of you that also use the wheresgeorge website you know they have the same issue over there with cheaters. I wouldn't worry about those people and just enjoy the site. Worse case scenario if to many people start worrying about cheaters, we could just end up with no stats at all. Just my 2 cents......3.8 cents Canadian.
+Team GPSaxophone Posted January 10, 2004 Posted January 10, 2004 Do cheaters really affect your own enjoyment of the game? Challenging someone's logs won't make this game any better. It will just add to the strain of too many rules.
+RocketMan Posted January 10, 2004 Posted January 10, 2004 (edited) I agree with GPSaxophone. What does it matter if someone cheats? This is not a competitive sport. I could care less if someone posts a false log to one of my caches. If someone is posting false logs, it just shows what a dumb**** they are. RM Edited January 10, 2004 by Rocket Man
+The Leprechauns Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 SE7EN has proposed an eight-step log challenge method (which, by the way, seems a bit asymmetrical). Here's mine: 1. Cache owner performs regular cache maintenance. 2. Owner notes who has signed the logbook. 3. Owner compares logbook entries to online logs. 4. If owner sees discrepancies, he sends an e-mail to the finder asking for details about the cache hiding spot and any special circumstances explaining why the logbook wasn't signed (thunderstorm, no pen, etc.) 5. Owner deletes logs of people who give wrong response or no response. Wow, and only five steps.
+Prime Suspect Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 SE7EN has proposed an eight-step log challenge method (which, by the way, seems a bit asymmetrical). Here's mine: 1. Cache owner performs regular cache maintenance. 2. Owner notes who has signed the logbook. 3. Owner compares logbook entries to online logs. 4. If owner sees discrepancies, he sends an e-mail to the finder asking for details about the cache hiding spot and any special circumstances explaining why the logbook wasn't signed (thunderstorm, no pen, etc.) 5. Owner deletes logs of people who give wrong response or no response. Wow, and only five steps. I have one with even fewer steps: 1. Owner realizes that this is a noncompetitive activity, and that there are no winners or losers, and doesn't get his panties in a twist worrying about cheaters. Hey, just one step!
+pdxmarathonman Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 I am with you on this P.S. I just retrieved 2 logbooks from my cache that has over 225 finds. I ain't verifyin' nuthin'. Come check out the cool area and write a little bit in the on-line log as a courtesy to me. Cache on! I can't beleive I read this whole thread
+Lone Duck Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 Do cheaters really affect your own enjoyment of the game? Challenging someone's logs won't make this game any better. It will just add to the strain of too many rules. While I'm not that wild about being able to challenge a log entry (should be left up to the cache owner) there is one valid reason for removing false finds. I have gone back and searched out caches that I wasn't able to find after someone else managed to find it. If the log entry is false, then it could send me on a "wild goose chase" which ducks simply don't do.
+bons Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 there is one valid reason for removing false finds. I have gone back and searched out caches that I wasn't able to find after someone else managed to find it. If the log entry is false, then it could send me on a "wild goose chase" which ducks simply don't do. Ok. You log your DNF. Someone else logs a find. Now you don't know if the find is legit or not. When do you go out next? After the maintainer goes out and verifies that the find is legit or after you see the questionable found log. Now if you're going to wait for the maintainer to go out and verify that the log is there then you're waiting for the maintainer to go out and find the cache and... Oh wait, if he did that than I don't care if the find is legit or not. The owner verified the cache is there. Now how is this whole exercise supposed to make things better for you again?
SE7EN Posted January 11, 2004 Author Posted January 11, 2004 Wow. With the opinions expressed here I get the feeling we could do away with logbooks and find counts. How about it?
+Renegade Knight Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 Wow. With the opinions expressed here I get the feeling we could do away with logbooks and find counts. How about it? Well...we lost stats so we are halfway to not having find counts. Log books are popular though there is a thread on making it so they are not a requirment.
Cholo Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 Gets the community at large involved in policing each other and keeping people honest. Do we get to elect the community kommisar?
+Jeremy Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 If Jeremy were doing it all over again, do you think it would be a good way to cut down on cheating and the resulting complaints? What complaints?
+captnemo Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 there is one valid reason for removing false finds. I have gone back and searched out caches that I wasn't able to find after someone else managed to find it. If the log entry is false, then it could send me on a "wild goose chase" which ducks simply don't do. Ok. You log your DNF. Someone else logs a find. Now you don't know if the find is legit or not. When do you go out next? After the maintainer goes out and verifies that the find is legit or after you see the questionable found log. Now if you're going to wait for the maintainer to go out and verify that the log is there then you're waiting for the maintainer to go out and find the cache and... Oh wait, if he did that than I don't care if the find is legit or not. The owner verified the cache is there. Now how is this whole exercise supposed to make things better for you again? I agree with Lone Duck! My time to cache is limited and I don't like to go on Wild goose chases nor do I like to send others on them. I maintain my caches and a false found log after a DNF might keep me from visiting the cache and repairing a problem! However, it should be up to the cache owner to clean up logs not other cachers. If there is a problem then a note in the log and/or an email to the owner would do the trick.
+jeff35080 Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 As a police officer, I often tell people, as I take a report about stolen goods, that locks and keys are for honest people. Criminals don't need locks and keys. Those that are going to cheat will find a way to do so and often they are shamed in the forums, by other honest cachers. I don't cheat, but admit that I rarely check the log books in my caches against online logs. If someone wants to lie, they are only hurting themselves.
+Volvo Man Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 I Really don't like this challenging idea, I can see a strong potential for a small element to ruin the sport by challenging logs for the fun of it. it could even spark wars between some geocachers. It's also more work for the aproovers who should be spending their time making sure that cache placements are following the rules, and that owners are following up DNFs. I'd love to see stats make a return though. On the note of cheating, isn't this sport more about going and finding the caches, the rewards come from the occasional trade that you keep, and being fitter and spending less time indoors. there's no prize money for the top finder. some people will always cheat to climb the stats, but that's easy to spot, I mean, who really can find 100 geocaches a week , every week?? Even the seti@home project has it's cheaters, some guy wrote a virus to get other peoples machines processing for him! And that process that started this thread, sounds like something from dungeons and dragons or such. Do you really feel that strongly about false logging? one other thing that neither the challenge nor the password covers is the cache log that says, I found the hiding spot and could see the cache container, but didn't sign the log as I am only 4 foot tall and the cache was 6 foot up in a tree! Or, I found the cache, but just as I was about to open it, this bear came out of nowhere and I had to run away! For me, the current owner based system is fine, and if owners don't check log books or are absentee? well, thats a whole other thread thats been hashed out here time after time.
SE7EN Posted January 11, 2004 Author Posted January 11, 2004 Do you really feel that strongly about false logging? No, I don't sit around thinking of ways to keep people from cheating. Like I said in the opening post this idea pretty much just came to me in a flash after posting in another thread. Codewords of various natures have been discussed many times and always shot down for pretty much the same reason. This is a new twist on getting people to stop false logs. It's less work on the owner, less work on cachers who don't care is someone cheats, allows community involvement, and creates another layer of "authority" so someone might think twice before falsely logging. Me, I'll stick to what I've said before and at least one poster above said, print the cache sheet, actually go to the cache site, and compare. I don't have a problem with taking responsibility for my caches.
gilbertf Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 I feel like cheaters can be ignored. The game of Geocaching is not about your own Geocaching stats but the fun of seeking for a cache, going outside and finding nice natural places. My own stats are close to a 50 % find, 50 % been around and found nothing (my poor eyesight might be a cause). As long as we have no form of classification based on cache founds stats, cheaters got it up their a**. In fact, I almost never check other's people stats
+bons Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 I agree with Lone Duck! My time to cache is limited and I don't like to go on Wild goose chases nor do I like to send others on them. I maintain my caches and a false found log after a DNF might keep me from visiting the cache and repairing a problem! Ok. So someone logs a false log after Lone Duck's DNF. Lone duck doesn't trust it. At this point, one of you is likely to be a wild goose chase. Either a) Line Duck waits for you to post a main note or for someone he trusts to log a find. or Lone Duck goes out there on a potential wild goose chase. or c) Lone Duck pushes the "challenge" button and you have to go question a posssible innocent person, probably upsetting them, and then have to drive out there and verify the cache is still there just like he said (which basicly means you're on a potential wild goose chase) I'm not seeing the advantage of this new system unless upsetting local cachers is an advantage. I suspect that the vast majority of challenges would be false. I can't possibly imagine that there are that many false logs, especially ones posted on caches that actually aren't there. I'm sure there are some, but look at how people react when their cache isn't approved. Can you imagine how they're going to react when their finds are challenged? Is it really worth it?
+Prime Suspect Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 No, I don't sit around thinking of ways to keep people from cheating. Seeing as you're the one who came up with this idea, apparently you do.
+Sparky-Watts Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 I've pretty much given my opinion on this in a couple of threads on the same basic topic, which is cheating. I don't care. As to those who think a false log will make them go out for a cache that may not be there...well, ummm......isn't that what you do anyway? How many times have you seen someone log a cache and when you get there it has been muggled? Does this mean that just because the cache was logged before you went that the person who logged it is lying? I just don't see this as being a problem worthy of Jeremy spending umpteen thousand dollars and umpteen thousand hours re-writing code because of a handful of unscrupulous cachers that are cheating. Again, I say, "So #%@&*%$ what?!?!?" Let'em cheat if it makes them happy. It sure as heck doesn't bother me! And that's all I got to say about that!
+ironman114 Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 I'm with sparky on this one. Like I have sid elsewhere they only hurt themselves not me. I'm done on this subject.
+Logscaler and Red Posted January 11, 2004 Posted January 11, 2004 Myself, I have about 6 or 8 full logbooks sitting here on a shelf. Red and I have read through them to see what people have said. Have we checked online logs verses our logbooks? No. And it aint' going to happen. Personnal ethics come into play somewhere along the line. I sign logbooks where possible when I claim a find and I trust others to do the same. If they have not, has it damaged me any? No. Does it bother me any? No. Is tracking all this down worth my time and effort? No. Besides, I can pretty much tell from the cachers name and the cache claimed if they really did the cache and newbies descriptions tell me if they where there or not. Enough said. Later.
SE7EN Posted January 11, 2004 Author Posted January 11, 2004 No, I don't sit around thinking of ways to keep people from cheating. Seeing as you're the one who came up with this idea, apparently you do. No, problem. Call me a liar to my face in a public forum. However, the evidence is just above that shows either you didn't read the whole post much less the whole thread, have problems with reading comprehension, or just want to stir the pot. No wonder people choose to lurk instead of post. But, that's okay. I'll take my warning with this parting shot and leave you to your own devices. Closing thread as many people have made their opinion known and this is not popular. Withdrawing the idea. Start another thread if the discussion is important to you.
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