A Hidden Camera?

November 27, 2003

On the weekends while reading through the outdoor store advertisements I've seen motion sensing camera's for sale....usually used to map out deer movements or to get pictures of animals that are seriously human shy. I am curious if anyone has used one of these to get unsuspecting geocachers pictures or if anyone has placed one for its original purpose? Otherwise I am curious what people think about this being used in geocaching? Good? Bad? Stealing camera's factor?

1.4k · November 27, 2003

That topic has already come up once.

I think it would make for a great cache though.

2.3k · November 27, 2003

I remember that post... someone was trying to sell secret photos of CarleenP....

Oh wait that was me.... delete delete delete!!

November 27, 2003

I'm not a lawyer but I think if you put up a video camera you have to tell people they are being taped or else its voyeurism.

1.7k · November 27, 2003

Nope.

For audio there are lots of requirements.

The test for video is a "reasonable expectation of privacy". I.e. a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy in a bathroom, but not on a city street.

There will be grey areas.

I love the idea of a photo cache, as long as some good choices are made on what NOT to show or what to edit out of the photo.

4.8k · November 27, 2003

I remember that post... someone was trying to sell secret photos of CarleenP....
Oh wait that was me.... delete delete delete!!

I never did get my free copies!

Since that past thread, I have thought about getting one of those cameras and setting it up on a game trail somewhere where hunting is not allowed. I just want to see what pictures of animals I get. There have been some mountain lion reports around here, and I thought trying to "camera trap" one could be fun. I figure if I'm going to go out hiking to do that and will be coming back to maintain the camera, I might as well place a cache nearby too. The thing is, I won't put the cache in front of the camera and will note on the cache page that there is a camera nearby if cachers want to purposely try to find it and have their photo taken. That should also warn cachers about watching what they do in the area! Any thoughts?

November 27, 2003

The problem with setting up a camera like this would be that you'd get all the pro-privacy people on your back about it. Am I right or am I right?

November 27, 2003

I've gotten hundreds of photos of deer and other wildlife with a motion detector camera. However, if you put one where someone might wander by, it may well come up missing. Not only do they flash in low light, but you can also hear the motor advancing the film. For cachers, I think I'll stick to putting the disposable camera in the cache and let them take their own.

1.4k · November 27, 2003

We had one local cacher suggest that he was going to set up a wildlife camera to catch our local cache pirate.

Personally, I thought he was nuts.

*****

November 27, 2003

We had one local cacher suggest that he was going to set up a wildlife camera to catch our local cache pirate.

Personally, I thought he was nuts.

*****

That's an unfair statement. I was suffering from acute paranoia when I went off my meds. I'm ok now, though.

You were talking about me, right?

November 27, 2003

I would not like my picture taken without my permission. If somebody uses this type of camare near their cache, they should be required to notify you.

November 27, 2003

Didn't I say you'd get the privacy guys jumping up and down about this?

1.3k · November 27, 2003

carleenp: I'm in Omaha. Let me know if I can help set one up.

3.8k · November 27, 2003

I always liked Candid Camera!

November 28, 2003

You are recorded anytime you go into public places, sometimes with your knowledge and sometimes without it.

Hasn't anyone seen "Enemy of the State" (I think that's the one)

Patrick

November 28, 2003

Check out truelook.com. They have cameras you can move and zoom in or out in a few places across the country. Wasn't there a cache where you went to a place and had someone record your presence there on a similar type of setup, then you could log a find?

Edited November 28, 2003 by Woodbutcher68

November 28, 2003

I always liked Candid Camera!

Well, based on the Candid Camera theme, I created Candid Cache a few months ago. The cache is located in a parking lot just outside the building I work in, and is in plain view from my office window. As cachers come and find it, I've snapped their photos. Obviously, I haven't been able to catch all the cachers who've found it. I intentionally waited until several people found the cache, before I started posting their pics on the cache web page. And yes, I made a cacher named (uh, better not give his name), anyway I made one cacher flaming mad. He demanded that I remove his photo and declared that I had violated his privacy. After explaining to him very politely via email that it wasn't against the law to take photos in public, I agreed to remove his photo. As a consolation, I came up with an idea to post another picture in its place, that was related to his screen name, but not an actual photo (more like a cartoon photo). I decided to be polite and ask him what he thought of the idea, since he got so mad before, and he actually emailed me a bitmap and told me that I could post his bitmap as long as I didn't modify it!! Who the heck does he think he is? Now I was flaming mad, but chose not pursue it until now. I thought about posting his original photo in the forums for others to write funny captions about. There's alot more to this story, but I'm too lazy to write it all.

I've been experimenting some with a web cam, as this is a really great spot to place it. I would convert the cache to a web cam cache if I do this, that way cachers know before hand their photo will be taken.

Ironically, no more cachers have found Candid Cache since I published all the photos!!

Come on folks, have a little fun!!

November 28, 2003

Oh this is funny! What's the big deal about people getting their pictures taken? Maybe they should live with their curtains closed all the time. You never know when one of those hi-tech spy satellites is watching you! ;-)

November 28, 2003

You KNOW the Communists have been watching us for the last 40-50 years anyway!!

November 28, 2003

You KNOW the Communists have been watching us for the last 40-50 years anyway!!

Some are probably even lurking here as we speak, uh, I mean type.

November 28, 2003

I hate to tell you this but I would say just about every time you go into a store, bank, federal building so forth and so on, your picture is and has been taken. Ever go into a airport? You can bet the ranch that you are having your picture looked at there. Oh and they do not need your OK to do it.

We have cameras at some of our hamburger joints here. I have a cache that has no less than four around it. Part of the hunt is useing skills not to let them know what your doing.

The problem as I see it is if they are taking the cache's that cost a few $$ what do you think they will do with a camera that cost $$$$$? Thats right it just became a travle bug.

I think it would be great to know that there is a camera there and to see if I could get to it without getting my photo taken.

Rick

Edited November 28, 2003 by Shadow's

November 28, 2003

I think it would be great to know that there is a camera there and to see if I could get to it without getting my photo taken.

Rick

Agreed, that's part of the fun. And it's also fun for me to see if I can catch the cacher!!

3.9k · November 28, 2003

Hawk-eye has a multiple cache with the 1st stage being at the edge of the road of his front yard. He saw a pair of cachers looking for it from his house and took their pic and printed it. He then went to the final stage and put in the pic. When the cachers found it, they were totaly surprised! Too funny!

El Diablo

1.6k · November 29, 2003

I can assure you that I really was going to use a wildlife camera to catch the pirate in action.

But it turns out I did not need to.

He WANTED to get caught!

Which explains why he phoned me and told me he was the pirate.

9.4k · November 29, 2003

I remember hearing about that phone call! I hear he's behind bars now

1.6k · November 29, 2003

When I first started caching, we had a cache in Omaha that had a camera mounted at the end of a straight narrow trail that lead to the cache so that you could have your picture taken as you got to the cache. I always liked that idea, but it didn't last. I wouldn't mind as long as the cache page described the camera and I knew that the pic was going to be used for good and not evil.

I have to be careful about this as a pic of my ugly self would be devastating in the wrong hands...

Edited November 29, 2003 by bigredmed

November 29, 2003

I've used these types of cameras while volunteering on a number of research projects. The two drawbacks are the working range and the noise. If it was your goal to secretly photograph cachers, I'm not sure it would work. In order for the camera to be activated, they would have to be fairly close. The problem as was already stated is that the shutter and film advance are fairly noisy. There's also the issue of the flash. A person would notice all of this.

When I was using the camera on a project to study black bear distribution, we didn't care if we spooked the animal once we got the picture. Most animals don't carry tools into the woods. Someone hiking along, or, gasp, a less than ethical geocacher may decide to steal the camera. Even attaching them with a cable didn't always prevent theft.

I really don't care much about the privacy issue. If I'm outside my home, I'd have to assume that a camera could be anywhere. I've stumbled upon game cameras while hiking in public hunting areas on a few occasions. I take care to give the hunter a picture a two that leaves them scratching their head when they get the film developed.

4.8k · November 30, 2003

I have to be careful about this as a pic of my ugly self would be devastating in the wrong hands...

I have few pics with you in them. Want me to share?!?!?

1.6k · November 30, 2003

I have to be careful about this as a pic of my ugly self would be devastating in the wrong hands...

I have few pics with you in them. Want me to share?!?!?

You would have to assume responsibility for the sudden loss of sanity sparked by looking at one of then without being premedicated...

November 30, 2003

Shadow's has it right.....i think anybody who has privacy issues really needs to realize that every single time you go out somewhere you have several cameras recording you......Virtually ALL casino's ALL gas stations ALL banks ALL Malls and ALL Meijers K-mart's and Walmarts. Ever been to one of those places? How about buying groceries? Krogers and Farmer Jacks? Next time your standing in line take a look at the ceiling....those little black circles on the ceiling have camera's in them. I have a hard time finding validity in those types of arguments when they certainly do not mind those camera's. If someone can give me a reason why it's ok to video or photo you everytime you buy groceries but not in the woods then i'll reconsider. I really like the idea about getting to the cache without being photographed....like it's a minefield or something. Any ideas on distance that the camera can be tripped? Or ideas for preventing it's being stolen? I was thinking about putting it up in a tree (high enough that someone would need a ladder to get to it) pointing downwards.

November 30, 2003

I hate to tell you this but I would say just about every time you go into a store, bank, federal building so forth and so on, your picture is and has been taken. Ever go into a airport? You can bet the ranch that you are having your picture looked at there. Oh and they do not need your OK to do it.
We have cameras at some of our hamburger joints here. I have a cache that has no less than four around it. Part of the hunt is useing skills not to let them know what your doing.

The problem as I see it is if they are taking the cache's that cost a few $$ what do you think they will do with a camera that cost $$$$$? Thats right it just became a travle bug.

I think it would be great to know that there is a camera there and to see if I could get to it without getting my photo taken.

Rick

that's true, but the feds ain't posting the pics on a website!

1.4k · December 1, 2003

mufasa1023 wrote:
Shadow's has it right.....i think anybody who has privacy issues really needs to realize that every single time you go out somewhere you have several cameras recording you......Virtually ALL casino's ALL gas stations ALL banks ALL Malls and ALL Meijers K-mart's and Walmarts

Your photo is taken for security purposes in the the places that you mention which is fundamentally different than what this discussion is about. The primary difference being that these outlets don't post the pictures of you that they take on a website for all to view (which I would assume would happen if someone were to take spy photos of cachers in action) -- security photos are not intended for public consumption.

Personally, I would not take candid pictures of cachers as I believe it is an intrusion on their privacy.

*****

1.5k · December 1, 2003

I hate to tell you this but I would say just about every time you go into a store, bank, federal building so forth and so on, your picture is and has been taken. Ever go into a airport? You can bet the ranch that you are having your picture looked at there. Oh and they do not need your OK to do it.
We have cameras at some of our hamburger joints here. I have a cache that has no less than four around it. Part of the hunt is useing skills not to let them know what your doing.

The problem as I see it is if they are taking the cache's that cost a few $$ what do you think they will do with a camera that cost $$$$$? Thats right it just became a travle bug.

I think it would be great to know that there is a camera there and to see if I could get to it without getting my photo taken.

Rick

that's true, but the feds ain't posting the pics on a website!

They aren't?

1.4k · December 1, 2003

Brian - Team AI wrote:
They aren't?

No, they are not posting anyone's picture on that website unless the person has broken laws -- I don't see any photos of law abiding citizens there.

That's a bit of a misleading response and a very poor example.

*****

Edited December 1, 2003 by Jomarac5

1.3k · December 1, 2003

On the other hand, there are a LOT of public webcams that provide clear resoultion of people in public and private areas.

http://www.truelook.com/ if you want some live examples.

Lots of people at the Hard Rock Cafe - Pink taco camera right now.

1.4k · December 1, 2003

bons wrote:
On the other hand, there are a LOT of public webcams that provide clear resoultion of people in public and private areas.

Just because it happens somewhere else, doesn't make it proper. As my Mom used to say "If your pal jumped off of a bridge, would you jump too?"

I see it as an invasion of privacy -- whether it's recognized legally as such or not.

*****

December 1, 2003

13-3019. Surreptitious photographing, videotaping, filming or digitally recording; exemptions; violation; classification; definitions

A. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly photograph, videotape, film, digitally record or by any other means use a device to secretly view or record another person without that person's consent under both of the following circumstances:

1. In a restroom, bathroom, locker room, bedroom or other location where the person has a reasonable expectation of privacy.

2. While the person is urinating, defecating, dressing, undressing, nude or involved in sexual intercourse or sexual contact.

B. It is unlawful to disclose, display, distribute or publish a photograph, videotape, film or digital recording made in violation of subsection A of this section without the consent of the person depicted.

C. This section does not apply to:

1. Photographing, videotaping, filming or digitally recording for security purposes where notice of the use of photographing, videotaping, filming or digital recording equipment is clearly posted in the location.

2. Photographing, videotaping, filming or digitally recording by correctional officials for security reasons or in connection with the investigation of alleged misconduct of persons on the premises of a jail or prison.

3. Photographing, videotaping, filming or digitally recording by law enforcement officers pursuant to an investigation, which is otherwise lawful.

4. The use of a child monitoring device as defined in section 13-3001.

D. A violation of subsection A or B of this section is a class 5 felony.

E. For the purposes of this section "sexual contact" and "sexual intercourse" have the same meanings prescribed in section 13-1401.

--------

Unless I am failing my reading, I believe this means, in the state of arizona, a webcam on a cache would be fine as long as the person is not doing something that most likely should not be done in the area of a cache.

I will also add that personally I think it would only be proper to advise cachers that a camera is present. I have yet to not use a camera inside a cache box. I personally have no problems with my picture being out there, god knows it will be found by someone if they really want to find it anyways.

2k · December 1, 2003

13-3019. Surreptitious photographing, videotaping, filming or digitally recording; exemptions; violation; classification; definitions

A. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly photograph, videotape, film, digitally record or by any other means use a device to secretly view or record another person without that person's consent under both of the following circumstances:

2. While the person is urinating, defecating, dressing, undressing, nude or involved in sexual intercourse or sexual contact.

Unless I am failing my reading, I believe this means, in the state of arizona, a webcam on a cache would be fine as long as the person is not doing something that most likely should not be done in the area of a cache.

I think you are failing in your reading.

I routinely practice one or more of the actions in paragraph 2 at every cache I visit.

I believe that makes taking my picture at the cache illegal, whether you think that action is something that I SHOULD do or not.

1.4k · December 1, 2003

13-3019. Surreptitious photographing, videotaping, filming or digitally recording; exemptions; violation; classification; definitions

A. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly photograph, videotape, film, digitally record or by any other means use a device to secretly view or record another person without that person's consent under both of the following circumstances:

2. While the person is urinating, defecating, dressing, undressing, nude or involved in sexual intercourse or sexual contact.

Unless I am failing my reading, I believe this means, in the state of arizona, a webcam on a cache would be fine as long as the person is not doing something that most likely should not be done in the area of a cache.

I think you are failing in your reading.

I routinely practice one or more of the actions in paragraph 2 at every cache I visit.

I believe that makes taking my picture at the cache illegal, whether you think that action is something that I SHOULD do or not.

So much for putting a webcam cache at a rest area.

*****

December 1, 2003

Ok so the motion cam this is a cool idea, but if ALL geocachers know they may be captured on film while searching, then MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ALL YOUR CLOTHES ON, and no whizzing near any caches! lol But as far as cams go I was thinking about setting up my net cam to watch my first cache near my farm, so all can come watch the cache live via my website. If anybody has a problem with this or thinks this is a lame idea, I would like to hear from ya'll - Lee

December 2, 2003

The Star-Tribune newspaper in Minneapolis has a web-controllable "TrueLook" brand webcam (http://www.truelook.com) where you can control the camera direction and zoom.

Anyway, it would not be too hard to write a shell script that would operate the camera to direct it to the cache position, take a shot, and download the pictures. The local computer would execute the script every 5 minutes. Then you'd just have to wade thru the photos every once in awhile to see if you snapped an interesting photo.

Hmm...

A Hidden Camera?

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