Personal Security

March 22, 2003

I was wondering whether many geocachers carry firearms while out and about. Given my proximity to the Mexican border and all that entails (illegals, drug trafficers) and some of the extremely remote cache locations common to the wide open west, I generally carry a Sig Sauer 9mm for which I have a concealed carry permit and am sure to check firearm requirements for the areas I will be geocaching in.

I have run across other geocachers with rifles at one cache and thought this might make for an interesting discussion.

Veni, Vidi, Cachi ...

March 22, 2003

this has benn discussed many times,I carry when I think necessary. check this thread web page

I'm a man and I can change if I have to,I guess.

3.1k · March 22, 2003

I have a concealed weapons permit and carry everywhere, almost. I'm a believer in taking personal responsibility for my own safety. Can't count on a cop being there since I don't hang out in donut shops

I hear voices.....and they don't like you!

March 22, 2003

I carry a lighter at all times.

March 22, 2003

but I do now that I know there are cache hunters with guns.

-WR

"Besides physical caches, we have VIRTUal and VIRTUeless."

1.5k · March 22, 2003

dadgum I am glad I live north of the 48th. I have to ask, if you really think there is a requirement to carry a firearm when you are doing something as inocous as Geocaching, WHY WOULD YOU GO THERE?????. (BTW, before all the inevitable comments come forth, I am NOTsome left-wing, touchy-feely peace and love guy!) Just out of idle curiosity, how many of you have ever shot at anything besides a range target?

March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by tirediron:
dadgum I am glad I live north of the 48th. I have to ask, if you really think there is a requirement to carry a firearm when you are doing something as inocous as Geocaching, _WHY WOULD YOU GO THERE?????_. (BTW, before all the inevitable comments come forth, I am _NOT_some left-wing, touchy-feely peace and love guy!) Just out of idle curiosity, how many of you have ever shot at anything besides a range target?

Well considering I have hunted caches in some very remote areas there is always the possibility of meeting up with Mr Hungry Cougar or some other deranged forest dweller. And yes I have shot at and killed several things other than range targets. What does being north of the 48th have to do with it? I have a few kills north of the 48th.

March 22, 2003

I carry almost any place I go. Actually feel safer when I am in some remote place than when I am close to home or work. I have to go to work which happens to be a world famous medical institution that is in the middle of some of the most crime ridden and drug infested areas of Baltimore. There have been 4 shootings within 2 miles of my home in the past year. And I live in a somewhat upscale and expensive community in the suburbs. I know the police can not protect me, they have difficulty protecting themselves.

I have never shot at any living thing and hope I never have to. Hunting animals is not something I do. Don't have anything against it I just don't do it. But I want to know that if I am faced with defending myself or family against a two or four legged animal wherever I may be I can and will.

All of that said my state makes it impossible to get a carry permit. So everyday I leave my house armed to protect myself I am breaking the law. Kind of strange that I pay taxes for a police force that tells me I can not expect it to protect me yet makes me a criminal when I exercise my right to protect myself. Just can't get my mind around the logic. But I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

1.5k · March 22, 2003

quote:
Well considering I have hunted caches in some very remote areas there is always the possibility of meeting up with Mr Hungry Cougar or some other deranged forest dweller. And yes I have shot at and killed several things other than range targets. What does being north of the 48th have to do with it? I have a few kills north of the 48th.

Being north of the 48th means that there are a lot less lunatics running around with guns, since Canadian Firearms Legislation is a little more restrictive than US. As for Mr. Hungry Cougar, or other "deranged" forest creature, well, in all my time tramping around the forests of the interior and coastal regions of BC, I personally have never met one... seen lots of animals that saw me and ran away. For that matter can only think of a couple of cases in the last 20+ years where animals attacks have occurred that were NOT caused by humans doing stupid things where they should not have been, and those were bear attacks. If you want to go up against a bear with a hand-gun, be my guest, I am sure he will enjoy the nice human-skin rug. Now, people being killed or injured by hunters and other gun-toting idjits in the woods, those number in the hundreds… I would say those numbers speak for themselves!

March 22, 2003

quote:

I also believe in personal responsibility for my safety. It's a dangerous world out there tirediron... I think it sould be the law for all law abiding citizens to carry firearms. Read the book "More Guns, Less Crime", darn, science screws up more liberal arguments again!! It's not the law abiding I fear, its the criminals !!! And I'm not at all trying to flame all canadians when I say this.....but your govt is heading down the same tract as England and Austrailia.....major crime, murders and rape are skyrocketing. Ooops, is that supposed to be a secret?.....sorry There will always be criminals...so why take away the guns from the law abiding? Actually, this is getting us way off subject.

We're going on a treasure hunt...we're not quite sure just where...but with our trusty GPS, we'll find a cache stashed there!!

By Daughter Cheryl

9.4k · March 22, 2003

I'll be hunting in an area known to have bears this year. A sidearm is on my list of things to buy before hunting season. Since I don't have it yet, I haven't searched for any of the almost 2 dozen caches in that area. I'd rather not have to carry my rifle while Geocaching, especially out of hunting season. Can you say poaching?

1.5k · March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:
I'll be hunting in an area known to have bears this year. A sidearm is on my list of things to buy

Just out of curiosity, exactly what kind of handgun and ammunition do you intend to use on bears?

March 22, 2003

Living in Canada where we can't carry guns. Except the bad guys.....

I carry my walking stick made from a broken hockey stick and bring the geodog Gucci with me on my hunts.

Oh yea and a plastic bag to poop and scoop.

gm100guy

http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm

Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage

9.4k · March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by tirediron:

quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:
I'll be hunting in an area known to have bears this year. A sidearm is on my list of things to buy

Just out of curiosity, exactly what kind of handgun and ammunition do you intend to use on bears?

I'm thinking of a 44 Magnum, perhaps Smith & Wesson, but nothing's concrete yet.

1.5k · March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:
I'm thinking of a 44 Magnum, perhaps Smith & Wesson, but nothing's concrete yet.

Well, at least you chose a wheel-gun. Your ammo's gonna be the tough part though. You are going to want steel semi-jacketed hollow points, and some very hot over-loads too (if such a thing is legal in your area). Ever seen a .308 Winnie ricochet off a bears skull? Be vewy, vewy carefull taking pot-shots at bears. I would say you should invest the money in a portable air-horn and a good, fast pair of running shoes. Got a much better chance of keeping you alive!

March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by tirediron:

Being north of the 48th means that there are a lot less lunatics running around with guns, since Canadian Firearms Legislation is a little more restrictive than US.

FYI, the majority of the US-Canada border runs along the 49th parallel.

9.4k · March 22, 2003

The sidearm is just-in-case I can't use my rifle. I'd like to get a 300 Win Mag for hunting Elk and Bear, but not this year.

back to the topic:

If lighters are not acceptible cache items, how about flint and steel? Like a magnifying glass, it will start a fire but takes some work.

1.5k · March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Kaniksu:
FYI, the majority of the US-Canada border runs along the _49th_ parallel.

Yes, and I am more than a little embarrassed that I didn't notice that TWICE while I was posting. Not quite sure where my mind was, but thanks. Wait, that's why I bought my GPS.....

March 22, 2003

I didn't realize that Groundspeak has now become Guns and Ammo. I'll have to remember this thread next time I need advice on which type of ammo works best for blowing a bears head apart.

Lake Tahoe Geocacher

9.4k · March 22, 2003

It just happens that there are many geocaches in my hunting area. There have also been many bear sightings. I would think that personal safety is an important part of geocaching.

March 22, 2003

If I lived in Alaska and came across a Kodiak bear I might feel different about safety but on this side of North America all we have are black bears and I've yet known anyone to have any problems with them. I have come across them several times when hiking or I have seen them raiding the neighborhood trash cans on trash day. Making loud noises will usually scare them away as they tend to be very shy creatures. I don't see black bears as much of a threat. I would rather come upon a bear in the backcountry than a geocacher with a gun.

Lake Tahoe Geocacher

9.4k · March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TahoeJoe:
I would rather come upon a bear in the backcountry than a geocacher with a gun.

Yeah...he might want to rob you of your McToys

March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by webermd1:
I was wondering whether many geocachers carry firearms while out and about. Given my proximity to the Mexican border and all that entails (illegals, drug trafficers) and some of the extremely remote cache locations common to the wide open west, I generally carry a Sig Sauer 9mm for which I have a concealed carry permit and am sure to check firearm requirements for the areas I will be geocaching in.

I have run across other geocachers with rifles at one cache and thought this might make for an interesting discussion.

__Veni, Vidi, Cachi ...__

I carry a .45 single-action colt six-shooter due to the remoteness of where I wander: I do not trust city folk to leave me and my burros unmolested. I've camped on the Mexico border at least 100 times and I've only been bothered by the Border Patrol (a bunch of bullies for the most part, with a few decent human beings among them: certainly a necessary task). The long gun and the shotgun stays in the gun rack.

No, I ain't no redneck.

As for Geocaching while armed, I don't see the need.

March 22, 2003

...but I don't see a need to carry one when caching. Maybe if I were going into a known risky area I might, but I don't think I'd go there in the first place.

I guess it depends a lot on the person. I don't think I need a gun to protect myself in most caching situations likely to arise.

Of course, I'm glad I live where I (and others)could carry if I wanted to. It makes the bad guys think twice.

George

2.3k · March 22, 2003

You bet I carry my 9mm around here. Come to the Phoenix area and turn on the tv on any given day. You will only hear about who shot who. I for one am not going out in the desert unarmed. Single action? No way. I can get all 10 shots off in less than 3 seconds if need be, then drop in my extra clip.

March 22, 2003

Don't want to scare anyone because it's pretty rare, but there are FAR more black bear attacks on humans than grizzily attacks. I even had to invistagate one back in 91 or 92 I think. It was in the upper peninsula of Michigan and the guy survived. Momma bear was walking through with her cubs and caught a whiff of him. She showed him her displeasure quite quickly. Nope, carrying a gun isn't for bears.....you'll rarely have the time or the firepower for effective use. (Better to put bells on your shoes to make enough noise to be noticed. Carrying a personal firearm is for the two legged animals roaming about....but then again.....they are not for everyone. Thats why God made dogs for pets.

We're going on a treasure hunt...we're not quite sure just where...but with our trusty GPS, we'll find a cache stashed there!!

By Daughter Cheryl

March 22, 2003

This falls in the category of 'inappropriate risk assessment'.

You have many, many times the risk of something happening to you while driving TO the location where you park the car and start walking around, than the actual wandering about on foot.

Like the poster above, I feel far safer hiking alone cross-country in a Wilderness Area than driving in any urban area.

========================================

Friends don't let Friends geocache drunk.

March 22, 2003

Killer Bees! Seems like it could easily happen in more southern portions of the US.

George

March 22, 2003

The way I feel about carrying a handgun is that I'd rather have one & not need it, than need one & not have it. That said, I don't understand the mentality of someone who says "I don't need one because I don't go into dangerous areas". I got news for you; the world is a dangerous place. Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped out of the bedroom of a home in a "nice" neighborhood. Every day Violent crimes are committed against people in areas that are considered by most people to be safe. The thugs aren't going to rob someone in thier own neighborhood, those people have no money. So you people can walk around in your own little "safe" world all you like. If your lucky, I"ll happen to be there with my legally carried handgun when some dirtbag tries to rape your daughter or girlfriend. Remember, the police can't do anything until AFTER someone calls them.By that time, it's too late.

March 22, 2003

...but a gun would not have helped Elizabeth Smart, unless you're going to start arming teenagers in their bedrooms.

I don't feel I need a gun because I'm an unlikely mark. Maybe that will change when I'm old and feeble, but for now any hood who pulls a gun on me, or someone around me, is going to get taken down, or I'll die trying.

But back to caching. Having a gun with me wouldn't be a good idea in most cases. I'd be afraid of it going off accidentally in some of the tight positions I get in, or damaging it to the point of uselessness. It just isn't very practical, and my risk is pretty small.

If you want to carry one, more power to you.

George

March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by tirediron:

Just out of curiosity, exactly what kind of handgun and ammunition do you intend to use on bears?

Well I do happen to have 1 black bear to my credit with a 44 Mag. I didnt originally intend on using the backup but as things happend it just worked out that way.

March 22, 2003

The only cacher around here that packs a gun with him has the other locals worried, he’s strange sb

2.6k · March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by tirediron:
dadgum I am glad I live north of the 48th. I have to ask, if you really think there is a requirement to carry a firearm when you are doing something as inocous as Geocaching, _WHY WOULD YOU GO THERE?????_.

No doubt, save the gun for the really scary places, city streets where all the crazys hang out.

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Indiana Jeff:
You bet I carry my 9mm around here. Come to the Phoenix area and turn on the tv on any given day. You will only hear about who shot who.

Oddly enough, all the shooters were packing, just like you.

-WR

"Besides physical caches, we have VIRTUal and VIRTUeless."

2.7k · March 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team 5-oh!:

quote:
Originally posted by tirediron:

Just out of curiosity, exactly what kind of handgun and ammunition do you intend to use on bears?

Well I do happen to have 1 black bear to my credit with a 44 Mag. I didnt originally intend on using the backup but as things happend it just worked out that way.

What's the story with the bear? I'm interested in encounter stories!

March 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by tirediron:

quote:
Originally posted by Kaniksu:
FYI, the majority of the US-Canada border runs along the _49th_ parallel.

Yes, and I am more than a little embarrassed that I didn't notice that TWICE while I was posting. Not quite sure where my mind was, but thanks. Wait, that's why I bought my GPS.....

But the funny thing is I thought you were talking about the 48 states. It never once crossed my mind you were referrencing something else. That said I am glad I am in the lower 48 and don't have to deal with the gun laws in your area. That is a very good example of people who live in cities who have no understanding at all of the people that live in rural areas. Which make up the vast majority of land there.

1.5k · March 23, 2003

quote:
But the funny thing is I thought you were talking about the 48 states. It never once crossed my mind you were referrencing something else. That said I am glad I am in the lower 48 and ....

dadgum, I wish I had thought of that, then I could have saved myself a ton of embarassment! Nope, just plain "early morning after the late night before" brain fog.

March 23, 2003

I think some people forget that when you have a concealed weapons permit, carrying a concealed weapon is legal. If you're not into guns, fine. don't carry. But inferring that somebody is a "lunatic" for doing something that is legal, and in many cases prudent, is a bit of lunacy. I enjoy firearms, but I don't carry. I have, but don't like it. People I know that carry, are very concerned about retaining their right to carry, and act accordingly, you have little to fear from them, unless you threaten them severely. They certainly aren't lunatics.

If you don't like guns, no problem, others do, and that doesn't make them crazy.

March 23, 2003

A firearm is only a tool ...as is a swiss army knife, a cigarette lighter, a coil of rope, a GPSr, and a canteen full of water.

All of the above can save your life in an emergency.

Whether or not you think you need, or choose to carry, any or all of the above while geocaching is entirely a personal preference, IMHO.

2.5k · March 23, 2003

They come in handy on the caches that are locked.

March 23, 2003

According to the Canadian Firearms act:

Protection of Life

2. For the purpose of section 20 of the Act, the circumstances in which an individual needs restricted firearms or prohibited handguns to protect the life of that individual or of other individuals are where

(a) the life of that individual, or other individuals, is in imminent danger from one or more other individuals;

( police protection is not sufficient in the circumstances; and

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/disp.pl?doc=f-11.6%2Fsor-98-207%2F114843.html;query=police;lang=en

Section 20:

20. An individual who holds a licence authorizing the individual to possess restricted firearms or handguns referred to in subsection 12(6) (pre-February 14, 1995 handguns) may be authorized to possess a particular restricted firearm or handgun at a place other than the place at which it is authorized to be possessed if the individual needs the particular restricted firearm or handgun

(a) to protect the life of that individual or of other individuals; or

( for use in connection with his or her lawful profession or occupation.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/f-11.6/58107.html

I see this as a reasonable defence for carrying a handgun or rifle while back-country geocaching in Canada. HOWEVER, the police officer who you run into COULD arrest you and place criminal charges on you and seize your firearm. Then, after months or years of expensive lawers you PROBABLY could get the charges dropped! -- Is it worth it?

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

March 23, 2003

I drive a "65 Mustang". Hey, pal, I drive a "56 Corvette", so you're outpowered. Sounds better than I drive a car. Thus I convey an egotistical identification that confers status, power, personal identification, machismo, and other bonuses. Likewise, Webermdi typically expresses the same: I carry a "Sigsauer 9mm".

T.Shuffle says it tongue-in-cheek style that he carries a LIGHTER. Makes sense to build a fire for warmth than killing a bear and crawling up inside its gooey hot innards.

If all those adhering to Nellamit's life view that the "world is a dangerous place", well maybe those adherents should take the opportunity of frequenting your urban ghetto and crime infested areas. You surely could fufill your world-dangerous quota and satisfy that need to be armed to the teeth.

Well said by one respondent: this whole thread speaks, or should I say, reeks, of "Inappropriate Risk Assessment". Might it be that we have increasingly developed a killing culture compounded with an obsessive love affair with weapons stemming from fear and ignorance, based from a mentality superiority and arrogance?

TahoeJoe--and probably many others still retaining their senses, me included--earnestly question this thread as being a geocacher's issue. I encourage the armed cachers to post on an NRA, gunclub, Soldier of Fortune, Militia or similar website.

Ponder it.

David Berne

March 23, 2003

When an Israeli was asked by a visiting American how does he cope with the threat of terrorism in his country of Israel, the Israeli replied, "Where I live there is typically peace with chance periods of terrorism." The Israeli then questioned the American by asking, "How do you live within the pervasive terror in your country, especially the big cities, where one has to fear the terror for one's life of being a homicide victim." The American stood and thought.

With this, I offer U.S. governmental facts that support the rampant rate of fire-arm related violence. Something to ponder for the firearm carrying advocates:

http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046149.htm

During 1950-1993, the overall annual death rate for U.S. children aged less than 15 years declined substantially (1), primarily reflecting decreases in deaths associated with unintentional injuries, pneumonia, influenza, cancer, and congenital anomalies. However, during the same period, childhood homicide rates tripled, and suicide rates quadrupled (2). In 1994, among children aged 1-4 years, homicide was the fourth leading cause of death; among children aged 5-14 years, homicide was the third leading cause of death, and suicide was the sixth (3). To compare patterns and the impact of violent deaths among children in the United States and other industrialized countries, CDC analyzed data on childhood homicide, suicide, and firearm-related death in the United States and 25 other industrialized countries for the most recent year for which data were available in each country (4). This report presents the findings of this analysis, which indicate that THE UNITED STATES HAS THE HIGHEST RATES OF CHILDHOOD HOMICIDE, SUICIDE, AND FIREARM-RELATED DEATHS AMONG INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRIES.

In the 1994 World Development Report (5), 208 nations were classified by gross national product; from that list, the United States and all 26 of the other countries in the high-income group and with populations of greater than or equal to 1 million were selected because of their economic comparability and the likelihood that those countries maintained vital records most accurately. In January and February 1996, the ministry of health or the national statistics institute in each of the 26 countries were asked to provide denominator data and counts by sex and by 5-year age groups for the most recent year data were available for the number of suicides (International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Revision {ICD-9}, codes E950.0-E959), homicides (E960.0-E969), suicides by firearm (E955.0-E955.4), homicides by firearm (E965.0-E965.4), unintentional deaths caused by firearm (E922.0-E922.9), and firearm-related deaths for which intention was undetermined (E985.0-E985.4); 26 (96%) countries, including the United States, provided complete data *. Twenty (77%) countries provided data for 1993 or 1994; the remaining countries provided data for 1990, 1991, 1992, or 1995. Cause-specific rates per 100,000 population were calculated for three groups (children aged 0-4 years, 5-14 years, and 0-14 years). The rates for homicide and suicide by means other than firearms were calculated by subtracting the firearm-related homicide and firearm-related suicide rates from the overall homicide and suicide rates. Rates for the United States were compared with rates based on pooled data for the other 25 countries. Of the 161 million children aged less than 15 years during the 1 year for which data were provided, 57 million (35%) were in the United States and 104 million (65%) were in the other 25 countries.

Overall, the data provided by the 26 countries included a total of 2872 deaths among children aged less than 15 years for a period of 1 year. Homicides accounted for 1995 deaths, including 1177 (59%) in boys and 818 (41%) in girls. Of the homicides, 1464 (73%) occurred among U.S. children. The homicide rate for children in the United States was FIVE TIMES HIGHER than that for children in the other 25 countries combined (2.57 per 100,000 compared with 0.51) (Table_1).

David Berne

March 23, 2003

quote:
Killer Bees! Seems like it could easily happen in more southern portions of the US.

George

I have to ask... what kind of gun and ammo do you recommend against bees ?

Si judicas... Cognosce

1.1k · March 23, 2003

This is veering dangerously off topic. Please refrain from debating the topic of carrying firearms and keep it close to geocaching. Thanks.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

March 23, 2003

Thanks to everyone for the opinions and for taking time to post. Looks like we geocachers are a representative cross section of the general population of the USA, Canada, (and other countries?). Jeremy is correct, this has strayed far from the initial intended topic and devolved into a right to own a gun debate (see the lengthy cut and paste survey/study ramblings from the CA teacher). Again thanks for the posts.

Veni, Vidi, Cachi ...

March 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by tahoeberne:
I encourage the armed cachers to post on an NRA, gunclub, Soldier of Fortune, Militia or similar website.

David Berne

But I guess those who want to take away our rights can feel free to post away here. As your next post shows.

Oh a teacher, it is all clear now. Academia will do that some. The use of stats to prove anything. Sorry to say, but all of that data is rather flawed. But in any event bicycles and swimming pool accidents kill more youths every year than handguns. Will you be willing to lead the charge to regulate and then get rid of them? If the 1,000 moms really are concerned about the children why are they not marching against that?

Now that is something to ponder.

March 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by lysa:
I have to ask... what kind of gun and ammo do you recommend against bees ?

Ummm ... a Bee-Bee gun???

Cheers ...

~Rich in NEPA~

=== "A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone." ===

March 23, 2003

LMAO!!!!

Si judicas... Cognosce

March 23, 2003

The paragraph recounting the Israeli/American 'conversation' at the beginning of that anti-gun diatribe fails to mention that Israeli citizens are one of the most heavily armed citizen populaces in the free world. Many Israeli citizens personally carry fully automatic weapons, particularly in the Occupied Territories. No wonder they feel 'safer' there than in many American cities. I would imagine that just about anybody would feel much safer walking thru a major American city at night carrying one of http://www.imi-israel.com/imi/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/1.1.2.12.2.1.html these, although I would advise against carrying one while geocaching

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