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Originally posted by clps:

The paragraph recounting the Israeli/American 'conversation' at the beginning of that anti-gun diatribe fails to mention that Israeli citizens are one of the most heavily armed citizen populaces in the free world. Many Israeli citizens personally carry fully automatic weapons, particularly in the Occupied Territories. No wonder they feel 'safer' there than in many American cities. I would imagine that just about anybody would feel much safer walking thru a major American city at night carrying one of http://www.imi-israel.com/imi/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/ these, although I would advise against carrying one while geocaching icon_smile.gif


I was amazed at the amount of openly carried fireams when I was in Israel in 96, saw everything from Galil's, M-16's, AK-74's and AK-47's, to SKS's, didn't see a whole lot of Uzi's compared to what I would expect.


If trees could scream, would we still cut them down?

Well, maybe if they screamed all the time, for no reason.

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Originally posted by tahoeberne:

I drive a "65 Mustang". Hey, pal, I drive a "56 Corvette", so you're outpowered. Sounds better than I drive a car. Thus I convey an egotistical identification that confers status, power, personal identification, machismo, and other bonuses. Likewise, Webermdi typically expresses the same: I carry a "Sigsauer 9mm".


T.Shuffle says it tongue-in-cheek style that he carries a LIGHTER. Makes sense to build a fire for warmth than killing a bear and crawling up inside its gooey hot innards.


If all those adhering to Nellamit's life view that the "world is a dangerous place", well maybe those adherents should take the opportunity of frequenting your urban ghetto and crime infested areas. You surely could fufill your world-dangerous quota and satisfy that need to be armed to the teeth.


Well said by one respondent: this whole thread speaks, or should I say, reeks, of "Inappropriate Risk Assessment". Might it be that we have increasingly developed a killing culture compounded with an obsessive love affair with weapons stemming from fear and ignorance, based from a mentality superiority and arrogance?


TahoeJoe--and probably many others still retaining their senses, me included--earnestly question this thread as being a geocacher's issue. I encourage the armed cachers to post on an NRA, gunclub, Soldier of Fortune, Militia or similar website.


Ponder it.


David Berne


And what does it say about you, when you quote your psycho-babble and little made up stories of chats with Israelis, to make a point? Think about that.


Also I would assume that since this is a "General" forum, posting of non-geocaching threads is appropriate. Why do you feel you need to be the subject police? How egotistical is that? I like the general forum because you get to read what people in these forums do when they aren't geocaching.


You have an opinion, some don't share it, others



I would encourage people to post what they wish in this forum, and ignore the self-righteous subject police that would tell them otherwise.


If trees could scream, would we still cut them down?

Well, maybe if they screamed all the time, for no reason.

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Typically, Tracy and I feel less of a need to carry protection when Geocaching in urban areas than in remote areas. Most Geocachers will probably not place caches in "crime-ridden" neighborhoods. We haven't found urban cache areas with spent shotgun shells laying around.


Although our big urban concern is some citizen calling the police because of "suspicious types" prowling a neioghborhood they obviously don't live in. I know that may not be the concern of everyone, but it is a real one for us.


If we feel it necessary, protection is usually Pepper Spray and walking sticks.

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tirediron asked:


>> Just out of idle curiosity, how many of you have ever shot at anything besides a range target?


Well, I didn't have to pull the trigger but, had I not been armed that night when two guys armed with baseball bats jumped me while I was riding my bicycle home, they would have beaten me to death or serious injury.


More people deter violence with their firearms than ever have to pull the trigger.


He later said:


>>Being north of the 48th means that there are a lot less lunatics running around with guns, since Canadian Firearms Legislation is a little more restrictive than US.


If gun control really worked, cities like New York, Washington DC and Los Angelas would be some of the safest in the world. Most law abiding gun owners aren't lunatics and when their laws forbid them from owning firearms they don't. This leaves them at the mercy of the real lunatics who refuse to obay the laws and continue to carry guns. Great Brittan has been instituting more and more restrictive firearms legislation and the rate of violent crime has been skyrocketing. Whereas, experimental legislation such as that in Kennesaw, GA where every household is required to have a firearm, have returned a dramatic reduction in crimes against persons.


>(:D police protection is not sufficient in the circumstances; and


I did a study of local police protection and learned that in Allegheny County, PA there was approximately 1 police officer for every 1,000 citizens. This does not take into account those off duty and those in the office instead of walking the beat. The idiom is true: there's never a cop around when you need one.


However, in Allegheny County (at ther time) there were nearly 10 times as many people licensed to carry a concealed firearm than police officers. Subsequently, Pittsburgh has a fairly low crime rate compared to cities that have many more police officers but severely restrictive gun laws.


That night I got jumped, I was literally one block away from a police station. That proximity was not a deterrant to their crime, nor did it offer me any added protection. I was on my own.


clps said:


>>although I would advise against carrying one while geocaching


Whaile geocaching, I am often even further from the so-called "shield" of police protection. I am even more on my own. If I stubbled upon a druggie protecting is woodland meth lab or some other criminal element hiding out, no one would hear my cries for help. My cell phone might not work and, if it did and I contacted 911, how would the cops find me? And, if they did have GPS units to find out where I was, how long would it take them to get to me? The likely answer to that is "hours".


Well, I'm not willing to wait hours for the cops to come save me. I have no choice but to save myself.


I have legally carried a firearm for self-defense for around 15 years now. In all that time I have thankfully been called upon to defend myself with it once. But, if I didn't have it then I would likely be dead. I have found myself in a few other situations where things might well have gotten dangerous. In those situations my gun never left its holster, my potential adversaries never knew I had a gun but the confidence I had in my own security allowed me to defuse the situation and we all went home safe.


"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage then to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

--- Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764



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Geocaching is a family thing for me. I won't be taking my kids anywhere that I think I might need a firearm. That being said, I will carry if I want to carry. All laws/categories aside, the difference between me and the manimals is intent. If you think you're in more danger when the good guys are carrying too, you are an idiot. And yeah, I've been around guns from a young age, and qualified expert on everything I picked up in 13 years of service. I never shot or killed anything I wasn't aiming at.


[This message was edited by Blackshoe on March 24, 2003 at 09:49 AM.]

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