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A logo for the rest of us?


The Leprechauns
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

Have you even read http://www.geocaching.com/about/logousage.asp? I feel like I'm writing but you're reading what you like. Verbatim:

 

"Any reprinting, sublicensing, copying, modifying, publishing, assignment, transfer, sales, or other distribution of the Groundspeak Geocaching logos contained within this website or any other website is strictly prohibited without the prior written consent of Groundspeak."

 

Why would I modify it when it is already well-written?


 

Funny I get the same feeling about you. I had read, reread, quoted, re-quoted and commented on the guidelines. As I said before you are holding a carrot out if you leave everything after “prohibited” in. The talk of a pristine logo is new and I was only wondering if the total ban on any modification (no exceptions) of the logo would still be held out there as a possibility.

 

quote:
It is pretty clear that in the future no permission will be given. That is why the example is moot. You're arguing for future designs, not current ones.

 

Again with the wording the way it is on the guidelines page I did not find it that clear at all.

 

quote:

quote:
I will again point back to my example of major league sports team logos.

 

You can do this all you want. The difference here is that the sport team logos were licensed, meaning legal documents were forged to allow variations on a protected trademark. You're confusing a blanket approval for anyone to cut up a trademark and use it for whatever purpose they wish, with a well structured licensing arrangement between two companies.


 

I am not confusing anything. I have never called for a blanket approval. During this entire thread I have stated you deserve to be compensated, and you should retain the right to approve of any modifications in the design. Go back and start from the beginning and reread what I wrote. That is very clear. How many times have I said licensing? The same laws that apply to sports team logos apply to you. If they can do it so can you. You have just admitted that “well structured licensing arrangement”(s) that will “allow variations on a protected trademark” can and do exist. So instead of saying it can’t be done it looks to me that you don’t want to do it. That is fine, I again have no problem with how you wish to use or not use your property. But it would have been easier if you said this from the start.

 

Bottom line for me is to say I only wanted to point out a way to get a logo done. It is possible but it seems like that will not ever happen. At this point I would urge those that have the talent to create a logo that may be placed in the public domain. Just a bit of advice. Use bold lines and shapes and keep it very simple. Thin lines will start to break down when reduced. This will allow resizing to any degree. I would request that the term geocaching be formally place into the public domain. Until that time I would not use it and would start to consider another name for this game/hobby/sport that will be public domain. Keep colors simple and not allow the design to require colors for it to work. The logo should produce well in color and black and white. I would hesitate in using any kind of phrasing in the logo itself. Most of us are OK with English but this has become worldwide. Unless the effort will be made to translate out the phrase to all the languages I would avoid any. Maybe this can be part of the modification that the user wants to make by having it run around the border in their language. Square or circle does not matter. One can be put inside the other if it is large enough to surround the other shape it is enclosing.

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quote:
Originally posted by MacBWizard201:

file:///Macintosh%20HD/Desktop%20Folder/geologo2

my futile attempt, although this won't work very well on a coin


 

You have to upload the image to somewhere on the web before the rest of us can see it. If you don't have that capability, email the image to me and I'll take care of it.

 

Always proof-read carefully to see if you any words out.

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quote:
Originally posted by Neuman:

Let's hurry before Groundspeak trademarks it! icon_wink.gif


 

Funny.

 

quote:
Why should I send a registered letter when the Logo Usage Guidelines say

 

What I meant was, show us proof that you inquired about getting permission. Since none has issued forth, I'm beginning to doubt you ever made the attempt.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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I have updated the Geologo page with the submitter's name and number of submission so we can better point out which picture we are talking about. Again, If I forgot one up let me know. Lots of good ideas coming in...

 

I seriously question the sanity of somebody who uses multiple exclamation marks!!!!!

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Jeremy, et al:

 

Obviously, my feeble attempts at humor today were EXTREMELY feeble!! I apologize if anyone was offended by my remarks as they were writtin with no malicious intent whatsoever. On the contrary, I was attempting to inject some humor into a situation that has become way to serious.

 

As I have never questioned y'alls rights to enforce your trademark and have complied with all of your requests concerning the TX Geocoin, I have no reason to start bashing you publicly in these forums! I've even tried to say nice things about Bryan in here but I can only lie so much icon_wink.gificon_biggrin.gificon_smile.gif JOKE JOKE JOKE Again, I'm sorry if my prior posts (which I have deleted) were taken the wrong way.

 

Neuman

 

[This message was edited by Neuman on October 08, 2002 at 11:45 AM.]

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By the way, my "let's hurry..." comment was referring to the little white square with a red x that appears when a file is missing. It was sort of funny until they corrected the problem and my joke made no sense (which is par for the course!)

 

[This message was edited by Neuman on October 08, 2002 at 11:44 AM.]

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I'm really liking Gustaf's logo!

 

I made a compass image for a puzzle on this cache of BunkerDave's... Maybe I could modify that(of course removing the protected geo-4box-color logo) and come up with something... Hmmmm. I'll see what I can contribute later this week...

 

After reading through this post, it makes me wonder something: Hey Jeremy! Isn't legal stuff fun?? icon_wink.gif It's great how things are still evolving, but a little sad that they are getting a little complicated...

Oh well.. The game goes on icon_biggrin.gif

 

-fractal

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

N 45 30.ish

W 122 58.ish

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Here's another idea I came up with, obviously it needs work! I could not find an item that signifies the cache. And I like the ideo of the family as opposed to one hunter, how about you?

 

brlogo2.jpg

 

And this one has been forwarded by someone who wishes to be anonymous, we'll call him "Mr. X"

 

pin1.jpg

 

I seriously question the sanity of somebody who uses multiple exclamation marks!!!!!

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Here's a couple. Took a hint from Gustaf and expanded. I'd like to add a compass rose overlay in negative but before I went to all the trouble I wanted a critique. I'm partial to the monocrome version as it has no borders but I know some people like the eyecandy.

geologo_bw.jpg

geologo_color.jpg

 

[This message was edited by Team Bohica on October 07, 2002 at 09:23 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

quote:
Originally posted by GrizzlyJohn:

 

I think the Team FISUR situation is the prime example.


 

Thanks. I'll repeat my response to this example.

 

1. 100 coins were authorized. I don't believe we're telling them not to use them. Nor did we indicate that an open license was given after the first 100.

 

2. We're planning to produce a die to help recoup the costs that Team FISUR had to pay for the first die created. We're not required to do so but we're doing it because we feel bad that the lawyers reversed our decision. . . .

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location


 

I wasn't planning on placing another post on this thread, but I wanted to respond to the above statements by Jeremy.

 

(1) It's clear that I only received permission for the first set of geocoins, but I assumed that when my team (i.e., my family) ran out of coins (months, possibly over a year from now) it would be easy to get permission again. And that the next set would be much cheaper for me since I already had the die. I believe that my expectations were reasonable at the time, and that's the way I was thinking when I made the investment in a die. But I also realized that there were no guarantees.

 

(2) The Team FISUR name and team motto are on the same side as the formerly-approved-and-modified geocaching logo. If I use the Groundspeak approved die, it appears that I'll be losing the team name and motto, and I will end up with a Rhode Island geocoin, not a Team FISUR geocoin. (If you need a visual aid in regard to the geocoin, look here.) I could always add the team name and motto on the flip side, but unfortunately that's additional money.

 

And I'm not asking Groundspeak to help me "recoup the costs" of the die. The Team FISUR motto includes the word "integrity". There is no doubt in my mind that Jeremy Irish is a man of integrity, and that's good enough for me.

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I, also, like that design. It scores high on looking professional and a good timeless classical quality. It may seem a little old fashioned for some tastes, but the colorized version made it seem less so. (And ixnay on the pastels, please!)

 

quote:
Originally posted by LongDogs:

quote:
I really like the one Gustaf came up with (not that my opinion counts for much).

 

http://www.m.kth.se/m95_bef/geo/geologo3.gif


 

I have to agree, that one is really starting to take shape and looks pretty good.

 

The only thing I'd change is I think I'd rather it just say "geocaching" than "geocaching commumity".


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quote:
Originally posted by SR & dboggny:
Originally posted by Dawgies:

 

What you're creating here is a logo for a group of people that has no weight. It won't be tied to an established organization, so therefore it won't be recognized as legit. Political weight stems from sheer numbers and money.

 

not tying it to an "established" organization is the point... as far as your comment as to the fact that it wont be recognized as legit.... dude, wake up, WE are the only people who need to recognize it as legit... is there some other "governing" body that has to recognize this. WE make it legit, not anyone else. you hit the nail on the head. political weight stems from sheer numbers. your comments seem somewhat confused. do you think that geocaching.com is some kind of political organization? its an enterprise. HELLO?

 

I'll stick with my Geocaching.com club membership, logo and my personal key to the "members only" mensroom.

 

 

we will all stick with our memberships but we want a logo that is representative of geocaching, not "geocaching.com." as a community, we derive our power not from the club membership but from our group. we just happen to use the forums as one of our "federal halls" where we get together to talk about our issues. as far as the geocaching.com logo. go ahead and use it, no one is twisting your arm to use ours, frankly, we dont care if you think our logo is legit or not.

 

SR and dboggny. my mother in law rides a broom!


 

Take a breath. I have no problems with what you're doing, just trying to figure out why.

 

I just come here to enjoy the cohesive brotherhood of the group. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

I'll go play on another post.

 

Power to the people!

 

~Honest Value Never Fails~

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

quote:
Originally posted by LongDogs:

I suppose if we're worried, "GPS Stash Hunt" might be even safer than Geocaching.


 

Don't worry about that. We're not pursuing the trademark on the term Geocaching. It is descriptive of the sport.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location


 

FYI:

I just searched the US Patent and Trademark database and found that Geocaching is a registered Trademark,Service Mark belonging to Grounded Inc.

 

Registration Number 2619174

Registration Date September 10, 2002

 

and that the logo has not received final trademark approval from the USPT office as quoted here "Current Status: A non-final action has been mailed. This is a letter from the examining attorney requesting additional information and/or making an initial refusal. However, no final determination as to the registrability of the mark has been made."

 

eagle1.jpg

If you fly like an Eagle the Turkeys don't bug you!!!

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quote:
Originally posted by imeagle:

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

quote:
Originally posted by LongDogs:

I suppose if we're worried, "GPS Stash Hunt" might be even safer than Geocaching.


 

Don't worry about that. We're not pursuing the trademark on the term Geocaching. It is descriptive of the sport.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location


 

FYI:

I just searched the US Patent and Trademark database and found that Geocaching is a registered Trademark,Service Mark belonging to Grounded Inc.

 

Registration Number 2619174

Registration Date September 10, 2002

 

and that the logo has not received final trademark approval from the USPT office as quoted here "Current Status: A non-final action has been mailed. This is a letter from the examining attorney requesting additional information and/or making an initial refusal. However, no final determination as to the registrability of the mark has been made."

 

http://www.cableone.net/imeagle/eagle1.jpg

If you fly like an Eagle the Turkeys don't bug you!!!


 

Wow!

Thanks for that bit of research. Very interesting. I can see a timeline falling into place here. I am not sure what to make of all of this now. But I think this does complicate the matter. And the obvious does not need to be stated.

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I resolved to stay out of it, but the last couple of posts regarding trademarks caused me to look a little futher.

 

http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78045228

 

According to this, the initial submission was January 26, 2001. Long before this whole issue with the logo started. It also states that the trademark is for clothing?

 

But it does cause me to pause, because I considered a signature item, and wanted to put the word "geocaching" on it, but I guess I won't. Now.

 

----------

Do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you be also be like him.

 

[This message was edited by azog on October 08, 2002 at 03:31 AM.]

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I really, really like MountianMudbug #2. It's simple, not too busy and possesses a definite coolness factor. The only comment I would make is, and this applies for all logos, remove all CountryState designations.

 

If I submitted a logo for Ontario Canada, it wouldn't appeal to a lot of people since it contained a reference to a place a lot of people did not come from.

 

But MountianMudbug #2 is decidedly my favorite.

 

In my opinion, which counts for nothing, Gustaf's compass rose is too busy and the text to small to immediately convey to me it's message. When creating design one must walk a balance between detail and overall esthetic. Gustaf's leans on the detail side. MountianMudbug #2's leans on the plain side with the text removed, but it could be modified to contain something like the words "Geocaching" and something like "You are here..." or "Community"

 

Thanks

DirtRunner.

 

Thanks

DirtRunner

 

Your not first...But you could be next.

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I agree, simple is defiitely better. My best example is to make it simple enough that a wood carver could carve it fairly easily. That's the biggist problem I see with examples like Gustaf's, which are great otherwise.

 

As far as country/state names being on there, they do indicate that there is some room for alteration of the logo, that's one reason we're doing this. The final logo will not have anything of that nature on it, so the end user could edit it for his own use. Maybe once we decide on a main design we can have several designs stemming from the main one, all in public domain.

 

I seriously question the sanity of somebody who uses multiple exclamation marks!!!!!

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Originally posted by DirtRunner:

I really, really like MountianMudbug #2. It's simple, not too busy and possesses a definite coolness factor. The only comment I would make is, and this applies for all logos, remove all CountryState designations.

/QUOTE]

 

See, I would rather have the logo have a blank space that could be modified graphically or left blank and filled in by hand. I would like to use the logo on my signature items and would want to put my handle or orginating cache on the item so people could see where it came from and we could follow them via email like a travel bug that didn't cost as much.

 

The Tennessee spot could be made into a blank for general use, or could be modified to put your cache name or state/province name into.

 

By appointment to the Court of HRM Queen Mikki I.

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I'd vote for any of the Gustav logos (1-4, color or not) with a very very close second for Team Bohica - I think they're beautiful, elegant, and I'd be proud to wear them....on a t-shirt, or find them...on a coin.

is it time to start a poll for this yet?

Beta Lemming

As an aside, I'm looking forward to reading whatever info Groundspeak provides (when it's ready) re their proposed die. I suspect it will be a truly equitable and classy solution.

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quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Lemmings:

IF we were to choose something like Gustav's original design - could there not be *ahem* 'derivative' designs as spin offs? For example - I like the early designs because they are so clean lined - but I can see the appeal of having a cute little thumbtack on it too - couldn't BOTH be available, once the original selection was made?


 

In fact that is exactly the idea. The logo can be modified to suit the medium by which it will be rendered (carved wood, hot-iron brand, crochet, silkscreen, coin die, resin mold, etc.)

as well as being customizable by adding your own icons, totems, mottos, etc. Of course, in the case of a coin, there is always the other face for customization. It may be that several of us could go in together to have a die face made for the "back" of the coin with a common logo, and then we could get coins for only the cost of the custom front-face. Or perhaps we'll go even further and design both faces and produce a generic coin we could all go in together on. (Hey, if we order over 500, then are less than $2 each, after die cost.)

 

Perhaps, if we all work together, we could make this one face, and the Groundspeak logo die the other face.

 

I don't think anybody is 100% sure where we are going with this, but the idea is to have a common base work and logo we can all build upon.

 

One other thing that is sure, is that when we are done, we'll all have a large base of public domain geocaching clip-art to draw from.

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My vote would go to Gustuf's design of all those presented so far.

 

- It is a professional looking design.

 

- The graphic lends itself well to either color or monochrome reproduction.

 

- Several elements of the design could be modified to personalize it while maintaining the overall feel. I could put my avatar image in place of the globe and compass rose and it would still maintain an instant association with the original design.

 

Rusty...

 

--------------------------------------------------

Friends don't let friends cache locationless!

 

Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page

Michigan Geocaching Organization

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quote:
Originally posted by LongDogs:

Any suggestions/preferences on the colors used?

 

It looks like gustaf followed the colors I used in my colored-up version, but those were entirely arbitrary, with no thought whatsoever put into the color choices. icon_rolleyes.gificon_wink.gif

 

I can't believe nobody had better suggestions. icon_eek.gif


 

A standard logo can be created but since it is ultimately intended for the public domain anyone could modify the colors to fit their own taste or needs.

 

Rusty...

 

--------------------------------------------------

Friends don't let friends cache locationless!

 

Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page

Michigan Geocaching Organization

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It's not a final as I knocked this out in only 20 minutes. I borrowed from mudbug's and made room for personalization. If there's interest I can do a high-res version. I like this because it's simple and would print easily on a coin. The lines aren't too fine. Also, color doesn't work on coins but could be filled in for t-shirts and the like if people wanted.

geoglobe.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by The Intrepid Lemmings:

- I was going to suggest that it would be simplest to focus on just the black and white version - since people will color it in to suit their wishes - but maybe it wouldn't hurt to have a consensus on preferred colors - to make it feel more of a 'team' patch - then people can change at will - but default colors (or black and white) are in place?


 

I think "official" design colors should exist, just to make it more consistently recognizable when rendered in color.

 

Also, coins can have colored spaces in them for an extra charge. Take a look at the Team FISUR or Moun10bike coins.

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I think some of us are getting a little ahead of ourselves...

 

You need to see how a logo works in different mediums and different sizes.

 

I posted some guidelines you should be looking for in the geocaching newsgroup. Feel free to look there--heck copy it here if you want, I don't care. But at least look at thepoints I'm trying to make. I've been creating logos for over 13 years. I'd hate for people to "settle" for a logo that might not look good rendered small or single color, or whatever.

 

Let's slow down a little...

 

CR

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Chiming in three pages into the thread seems a bit late in the game, but I had some thoughts to share.

 

My first point is that whatever is drafted needs to be entirely original. Meaning, no MS Word clipart, nothing you found on a web site, etc.

 

Also, with the logos floating around... I just don't know about having any text on a logo. It would be good to have a version that has text, but I really think it's the graphic that needs to be recognizable. One reason for this is International useage. While text can be translated, the image itself is what is important in my opinion.

 

For instance, look at this set of symbols:

http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm?CategoryID=38

 

And the dancing Groundspeak guy is a perfect example. If you saw the four sqaured logo with the Groundspeak guy and the flag - you'd know immediately, and without any textual reference to the sport, what it was symbolizing. I think it would be best to shoot for something like that.

 

The logo needs to be extensible anyhow, presenting the community with a basic symbol will allow for its incorporation into anyone's design.

 

--------

trippy1976

 

migo_sig_logo.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by imeagle:

FYI:

I just searched the US Patent and Trademark database and found that Geocaching is a registered Trademark,Service Mark belonging to Grounded Inc.


 

What part of don't worry about it confuses you? We're not pursuing the trademark, so use it at will. We registered it so no one else had the opportunity to claim it. Call off the dogs.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

What part of don't worry about it confuses you? We're not pursuing the trademark, so use it at will. We registered it so no one else had the opportunity to claim it. Call off the dogs.


 

Jeremy's right. This is getting a little out of hand. They aren't out to get anyone, and are just trying to do what they can to keep their corp logo from becoming public domain. I seriously doubt they'd do anything to hurt geocaching or the geocaching community.

 

Their offer to produce a shared die (with or without a charge) is a generous one.

 

I still want to have an unencumbered public domain logo/icon for geocaching, but that doesn't need to de-value or marginalize the Groundspeak icon. It is still the official icon of Groundspeak and the geocaching.com web site.

 

For many it will still be worthwhile to license the Groundspeak logo. I can see many cases where you would want to use both of them together, with the pristine Groundspeak logo and a customized version of the community logo for your area, team, etc. I'd be happy to see coins with the Groundspeak logo on one side, and a personalized community logo on the other. (Or even the generic community logo, for that matter.)

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