Questions on Moving a Cache

[+Lostboy1966]

I have a cache that I placed in a preserve a few months ago. I'm now planning some more hides in the area that will be themed to match this one.

The problem is, my new hides are on the opposite side of the park, well over a tenth-mile away.

My question is, can I relocate a cache a long distance and still keep the GC number (and logs), or do I have to Archive it and Re-Submit it as a new hide?

I'm not sure what option I would prefer yet; I'm just asking here because I'm too lazy to look up the rules.

[+TriciaG]

You can move it up to 528 feet / 161 meters. Anything beyond that can still (possibly) be moved, but requires reviewer assistance.

 

Needless to say, your new placement, either way, needs to still comply with saturation guidelines with respect to other caches.

[+CAVinoGal]

28 minutes ago, Lostboy1966 said:

My question is, can I relocate a cache a long distance and still keep the GC number (and logs), or do I have to Archive it and Re-Submit it as a new hide?

In my opinion, it would depend on the nature of the new location.  Will the hide be very similar to the original, or will it need a new description, hint, container, etc?  In other words, does the location make it a "new cache" experience?

 

Why move it?  Perhaps put new caches across the park, and also add to the series with more caches on the same side as the original?  Granted, I don't know the park or situation - how far are you  talking about?   How big is the park?

[+niraD]

21 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:

Why move it?  Perhaps put new caches across the park, and also add to the series with more caches on the same side as the original?

Absolutely. There's nothing that says that caches in a series have to be 528ft/161m apart from each other. One of my favorite series of caches is linked by a theme, but the caches are located in various places in 2 counties.

[+dprovan]

If you move it that far, it's a different cache and should have a new ID and a fresh log.

[+sernikk]

10 hours ago, TriciaG said:

You can move it up to 528 feet / 161 meters. Anything beyond that can still (possibly) be moved, but requires reviewer assistance.

 

That's true, but there is a workaround. You can just move the cache 'n' times on the max. distance of 161 meters.

But I agree with CAVinoGal, why should you move this cache? Better leave it where it is, or just archive it if you don't want to maintain it anymore in this location.

[+IceColdUK]

2 hours ago, sernikk said:

 

That's true, but there is a workaround. You can just move the cache 'n' times on the max. distance of 161 meters.

 

I believe that this would be flagged to the reviewers.  A good way to get on the 'naughty list'.  ;-)

[+sernikk]

3 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

I believe that this would be flagged to the reviewers. 

 

That's true. Every coordinates change has to be confirmed later on by the local reviewer, but when the change is justified and subtle you should be fine with that

[+TriciaG]

27 minutes ago, sernikk said:

 

That's true. Every coordinates change has to be confirmed later on by the local reviewer, but when the change is justified and subtle you should be fine with that

Or just do it the approved way.

[+dprovan]

2 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

I believe that this would be flagged to the reviewers.  A good way to get on the 'naughty list'.  ;-)

I'm not as sure it would be noticed, but to me, that just makes it like advising someone to shoplift: you get what you want and no one will notice, so that makes it OK. There's no good reason to try to fool the reviewer. If you want to move it further than is allowed by CO adjustment, the reviewer will move it for you. But I still say think hard about whether this is really the same cache or a new cache.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

4 hours ago, sernikk said:

 

That's true, but there is a workaround. You can just move the cache 'n' times on the max. distance of 161 meters.

 

You're missing the point.

 

What you're suggesting is to do a multi-move sneakily so that it doesn't come to the attention of a reviewer.

In other words, 'game' the system so that while you're adhering to the text of the guidelines, you're violating the spirit of the guidelines.

 

Tsk, tsk. Better to do it the right way, isn't it?

Edited January 13, 2021 by TeamRabbitRun

[Darwin473]

1 hour ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

while you're adhering to the text of the guidelines, you're violating the spirit of the guidelines.

 

Isn't that the American way? 

 

I'll go back in my box now, let's keep politics out of GeoCaching!

[+TeamRabbitRun]

6 minutes ago, Unit473L said:

 

Isn't that the American way? 

 

I'll go back in my box now, let's keep politics out of GeoCaching!

 

Hey, Back in your box, you!

 

 

But, point taken.

[+cerberus1]

19 hours ago, Lostboy1966 said:

I'm just asking here because I'm too lazy to look up the rules.

 

Kinda surprised you got the responses you did.  

[+dprovan]

4 hours ago, Unit473L said:

Isn't that the American way?

Only when the guidelines aren't actually appropriate for the situation where they're being applied. In this case, the CO's perfectly within his rights to move his cache to a new location, so there's no reason not to do it through the reviewer. People could use this to sneak a cache too close to another cache, but that's not the American way; that's just cheating.

[+sernikk]

16 hours ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

In other words, 'game' the system so that while you're adhering to the text of the guidelines, you're violating the spirit of the guidelines.

 

To be honest I'm just saying it is possible to move it and if it's not a huge change it won't be anything bad. I don't recommend doing so, I'm showing only how it's working in reality. Like a fun fact in a way I see your point though and agree that we should try to do what was intended in the first place.

 

 

[+hzoi]

On 1/13/2021 at 6:32 AM, sernikk said:

On 1/12/2021 at 8:29 PM, TriciaG said:

You can move it up to 528 feet / 161 meters. Anything beyond that can still (possibly) be moved, but requires reviewer assistance.

 

That's true, but there is a workaround. You can just move the cache 'n' times on the max. distance of 161 meters.

 

Yes - and if you do that, a reviewer will likely be in touch soon to archive the cache for circumventing the rule about moving a cache 528' / 161m, because they can see it. So, while it could be accomplished, I would not personally recommend it.

Edited January 14, 2021 by hzoi

[+Lostboy1966]

Ha! I'm not looking to do anything shady! Still laying out new hides in the park - nothing is official yet. If I move the one I'm thinking of, I'll resubmit it. Traffic is slow enough around here that I'm sure the few that have logged would be happy with an additional Found It chance!

[+fbingha]

If you want to move it move than .1 miles, just ask a reviewer to do it. You don't need to pass any moral test as to whether or not your cache is the "same experience". If it's part of a theme and it makes more sense to keep the same cache instead of creating a new one, let the reviewer know that and they will likely help you out. This has been my experience with themed caches that have become compromised and I needed to move them elsewhere in the same area but more than a tenth of a mile.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

On 1/13/2021 at 8:41 AM, sernikk said:

 

That's true. Every coordinates change has to be confirmed later on by the local reviewer, but when the change is justified and subtle you should be fine with that

 

I'm not a reviewer but that would look to me like they were gaming the system and trying to get past reviewer review.  All it would take is a message to the reviewer, explaining the situation, and as long as there were no proximity issues, they'd make the change.  

 

Work with your reviewers, not against them.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

On 1/14/2021 at 10:51 PM, Lostboy1966 said:

Ha! I'm not looking to do anything shady! Still laying out new hides in the park - nothing is official yet. If I move the one I'm thinking of, I'll resubmit it. Traffic is slow enough around here that I'm sure the few that have logged would be happy with an additional Found It chance!

 

If you move the cache to new coordinates, but keep the same listing (and GC code) nobody will get an additional Found It chance.  The system prevents logging a cache as found more than once.  

[+Lostboy1966]

7 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

If you move the cache to new coordinates, but keep the same listing (and GC code) nobody will get an additional Found It chance.  The system prevents logging a cache as found more than once.  

That's what I'm thinking, NYPC. If the move is big enough, it's not fair to carry over the GC number because it's basically a new hide. If I move it , I'll re-submit.  Thanks, everyone!

[Johannis10]

Same question about moving a cache, but under different conditions:

One of my first cache finds, was a great gadget cache that thrilled me about this hobby. This cache inspired not only me, but also many other cachers in the region to create interesting, technically complex geocaches. The cache now has more than 900 FPs. Probably nobody gave the cache an FP because of the field edge were the final is placed. The reason that defines the cache experience is, because of the sophisticated cache mechanics and humorous additions, not where it is placed. Due to circumstances, I adoped the cache years ago, maintained it and would like to receive it. Due to the wishes of a new landowner, I had to remove the cache and cannot rebuild it nearby. Do you think I have a good chance that I'm allowed to use the same listing (and GC code) even if I have to place the cache somewhere else, not using the old route? What's your experiance or ideas?

Greetings Johannis10

PS.: It's clear, that the new cache location needs to be approved by a reviewer and that there is no distance problem to other caches or other problems like that.

[+cerberus1]

24 minutes ago, Johannis10 said:

...I adoped the cache years ago, maintained it and would like to receive it. Due to the wishes of a new landowner, I had to remove the cache and cannot rebuild it nearby. Do you think I have a good chance that I'm allowed to use the same listing (and GC code) even if I have to place the cache somewhere else, not using the old route? What's your experiance or ideas?

 

I'd like to adopt GC28 and move it to PA.  It'd be the same cache, just not in the same state...      

 

Noticed a couple Temp-Disabled.  Even though it's no longer there, you don't seem to have it archived. 

Guess hoping someone says "Sure...go ahead...it'll be fine"   

[+IceColdUK]

1 minute ago, cerberus1 said:

 

I'd like to adopt GC28 and move it to PA.  It'd be the same cache, just not in the same state...      

 

Noticed a couple Temp-Disabled.  Even though it's no longer there, you don't seem to have it archived. 

Guess hoping someone says "Sure...go ahead...it'll be fine"   

Sure...go ahead...it'll be fine. ?

 

Assuming (1) the cache hasn’t already been archived, (2) you’re not planning on moving it across the country, (3) you feel the experience hasn’t really changed (in other words cachers who have already found it will get nothing other than an extra smiley for doing it again), then this doesn’t seem unreasonable.  Best to check with your reviewer though.

[+niraD]

24 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

Assuming (1) the cache hasn’t already been archived, (2) you’re not planning on moving it across the country, (3) you feel the experience hasn’t really changed (in other words cachers who have already found it will get nothing other than an extra smiley for doing it again), then this doesn’t seem unreasonable.  Best to check with your reviewer though.

I've seen a puzzle cache moved several miles (by a volunteer reviewer). But the final moved from one in-theme location to a very similar in-theme location, and the posted coordinates moved to stay within 2 miles of the final.

 

Keep in mind that this was the exception. It doesn't happen very often. It is much more likely that a cache will have to be archived and a new listing created for the new location.

[Johannis10]

4 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

... this doesn’t seem unreasonable.  Best to check with your reviewer...

Well, I asked a reviewer and I like the reviewer but not his answer ... I feel like a little child, who asks its mother for a piece of chocolate. And what does the best of all mothers answer? She don't say: It's forbidden, but she don't allow it either. She just says with a smile: Look at those carrots. Isn't the color beautiful. I allow you to eat them ... The reviewer allowed me to create a new listing with a new GC- code an zero FP's, but that was not my question and I have no serious doubt that the reviewer knows that too...

Greetings Johannis10

[+GerandKat]

On 1/30/2021 at 5:08 PM, Johannis10 said:

I have no serious doubt that the reviewer knows that too…

He/she/it knows what to do, he/she/it told you that if you move your cache too far away from its former hiding spot, it becomes a new experience, and should than be archived and published as a new geocache.

As a rule of thumb, we're asking ourselfs and the CO of the cache:
Is a geocacher, who found the cache 2 weeks ago, noticing that the cache moved?
If the answer is yes, it's a new experience -> new listing

If the answer is no, and the distance to the new GZ is <500m than it might be okay to move the coordinates.

[Johannis10]

9 hours ago, GerandKat said:

As a rule of thumb, we're asking ourselfs and the CO of the cache:
Is a geocacher, who found the cache 2 weeks ago, noticing that the cache moved?
If the answer is yes, it's a new experience -> new listing

If the answer is no, and the distance to the new GZ is <500m than it might be okay to move the coordinates.

Thank's for sharing your rule of thumbs or your interpratation from the guidlines.

If you and the CO in your area like that: Go ahead... it'll be fine.

I will be glad, if I finde a reviewer in my area wich have a simular interpretation like that:

 

On 1/15/2021 at 8:36 AM, fbingha said:

If you want to move it more than .1 miles, just ask a reviewer to do it. You don't need to pass any moral test as to whether or not your cache is the "same experience". If it's part of a theme and it makes more sense to keep the same cache instead of creating a new one, let the reviewer know that and they will likely help you out. This has been my experience with themed caches that have become compromised and I needed to move them elsewhere in the same area but more than a tenth of a mile.

The guidlines:

"If edits to your cache page change the experience of your geocache fundamentally, it may be appropriate to archive the cache page and submit a new one."

My interpreatation: I don't see a fundamentally change of the experiance from the cachers if that impressive final is at an other edge of an other field. The cachers gave a FP or a recommendation for my cache, not because of the place, but because of the constructien and the nice gadget. But if a reviewer have an other interpretation, i accept that, an that's no problem. Even if the reviewer interprete it as a fundamentally change of experiance, the guidlines says "may be... submit a new one" and not" had to submit a new one".

So, I woud be glad, if the reviewer give me the freedom to choose, if I want a new listing or using the old one. That is not angainst the guidlines and i see only advantages If a CO can create his cache as he prefere it. Thanks to all reviewers, wich support that and make that dreams true.

Greetings Johannis10

[+Hynz]

On 2/1/2021 at 9:42 AM, GerandKat said:

As a rule of thumb, we're asking ourselfs and the CO of the cache:
Is a geocacher, who found the cache 2 weeks ago, noticing that the cache moved?
If the answer is yes, it's a new experience -> new listing

I personally don't care much about gadget caches but out of interest: Strictly speaking even the slightest movement of a hiding place should be "noticed" (especially for somebody who recently found the cache) and would lead to a "yes" to this question but without necessarily changing "the experience".

Even if it is an edge case: I once moved the final of my multi for more than a kilometer without changing the experience: It's is the final of a 4-day hiking cache 

[+niraD]

3 hours ago, Hynz said:

I personally don't care much about gadget caches but out of interest: Strictly speaking even the slightest movement of a hiding place should be "noticed" (especially for somebody who recently found the cache) and would lead to a "yes" to this question but without necessarily changing "the experience".

Even if it is an edge case: I once moved the final of my multi for more than a kilometer without changing the experience: It's is the final of a 4-day hiking cache 

Yeah, I tend to look at it the other way around from GerandKat's rule of thumb. After all, someone who recently found the cache would notice that the container had been replaced, especially if the new container is a different type/size from what was there before. And someone who recently found the cache would notice that the cache had changed hide styles, like a hanger that is now on the ground under some rocks, or vice versa. And someone who recently found the cache would notice that a footbridge was out, and that the remaining routes required significantly more hiking.

 

But we don't archive a cache for any of these things.

 

Like I said, I look at it the other way around. What would someone who recently found the cache recognize in the new incarnation? If the heart of the cache is unchanged (whatever the CO imagines the heart of the cache to be), then it's the same cache and there is no need to archive and relist it.

[+dprovan]

6 hours ago, niraD said:

(whatever the CO imagines the heart of the cache to be)

That seems like the best answer to me. GerandKat's rules of thumb only talk about the specific physical location. I find that often the least significant part of a cache.