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BraillerCD

Does the Mystery at the Museum "Penalize" Geocachers?

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3 hours ago, coachstahly said:

Some people don't have the time or inclination to travel and explore on a regular basis.  Some prefer the thrill of the hunt and the excitement of finding a cache, even if it's the 1000th P&G they've found.  Others want to find caches that take them to an interesting or off-beat location.  Others want to find caches that have swag.  Others want to get out on a trail for physical exercise and find that caching provides some extra incentive but is secondary to their main goal.  Others want to learn about some geological features near home or abroad.  Others want to drive .10, hop out, find a cache, and do it over again for 20 miles.  None of these things "require" you to travel and explore as many people have access to caches less than 5 miles from home.  There's no single way to define how or why cachers choose to cache.

And no single promotion can promote all those possibilities at once.

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On 8/10/2019 at 12:02 PM, dprovan said:

And no single promotion can promote all those possibilities at once.

 

Exactly.

Maybe the best answer during every promotion when someone inevitably complains that it's not fair is simply to wait for one that is, and is more geared to their style of geocaching. Even if it's 1 in 5, or fewer, promotions (especially if 4 in 5 of them are geared to a majority of geocachers' style of geocaching).

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On 8/9/2019 at 8:53 PM, spacemule said:

I am pretty new to this, but isn't the whole point of geocaching getting out, traveling, and exploring?

 

This is the new standard. Some oldtimers would like to find caches too - not only sign them.

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12 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Maybe the best answer during every promotion when someone inevitably complains that it's not fair is simply to wait for one that is, and is more geared to their style of geocaching.

Even in my short tenure of geocaching (2 1/2 years) I'm starting to see that promos may be tougher to fulfill each time, as our local cache "field" becomes saturated with smilies.  We'll see what the next challenge will be and either challenge ourselves to do it, or not. (I generally cache with my husband, and we agree on whether or not we'll actively pursue each challenge/promo).  He was able to claim a challenge cache and get the International Geocaching Day souvenir on August 17.  I didn't earn it, as we did not have time to geocache that day, and I'd already claimed the challenge cache as a FIND earlier this month!!

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1 hour ago, CAVinoGal said:

Even in my short tenure of geocaching (2 1/2 years) I'm starting to see that promos may be tougher to fulfill each time, as our local cache "field" becomes saturated with smilies

 

Strange, we've been caching since 2006 and we have 404 unfound caches within a 10 Km range, 362 of them are not on our "to do list" but should we ever decide we want to go for a promotion (doubt if that will ever happen) we could probably do it all on foot or by bike from home. Every promotion that does not require T5 caches we just get by doing what we always do, no planning no effort.....just business as usual.

I wasn't even aware of the Int. geocaching day and even that we got when we got home from a 4 day weekend away from home.

 

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2 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

Even in my short tenure of geocaching (2 1/2 years) I'm starting to see that promos may be tougher to fulfill each time, as our local cache "field" becomes saturated with smilies.  We'll see what the next challenge will be and either challenge ourselves to do it, or not. (I generally cache with my husband, and we agree on whether or not we'll actively pursue each challenge/promo).  He was able to claim a challenge cache and get the International Geocaching Day souvenir on August 17.  I didn't earn it, as we did not have time to geocache that day, and I'd already claimed the challenge cache as a FIND earlier this month!!

 

Bear in mind that two things have happened in the last couple of years; the promotions have gone from being annual to what now looks like three a year, and the number of finds required for each one has substantially increased. Looking back to 2017's Mary Hyde, the last of the annual promotions, it had a complex scoring system using the newly-introduced Friend League, with at least one week being a team score rather than individual, as well as different multipliers for cache types and/or D/T rating each week, but it looks like I got all of those with just 23 finds. The year before that, Mission GC required just 3 finds (a multi, a mystery and one with 10+ FPs) but had a puzzle-solving aspect to it as well. Compare that with Hidden Creatures that required 100 finds and Mystery at the Museum which needed 57 finds, 22 of which were restricted to specific caches.

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1 hour ago, on4bam said:

I wasn't even aware of the Int. geocaching day

 

For the record, it's been the third Saturday of August, since 2011.

 

"The same procedure as last year, Miss Sophie?"

"The same procedure as every year, James!"

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1 minute ago, hzoi said:

 

For the record, it's been the third Saturday of August, since 2011.

 

 

OK, but I didn't notice. I don't subscribe to newsletter or other "promo mails". I just look at "all activity" on these forums and don't read everything. When away from home I don't visit the forums either. Since we basically go caching every week, mostly on Sundays (except when F1 is on or we have other commitments) it's a day like any other. Had we not been away for 4 days (Aug 15th is a national holiday here) we would not have been outside (too much rain until early afternoon) but we left our B&B in the morning and made our way home along a few unfound caches of a series that has a cache in each Flemish town (all 308, still 11 to go) as they are outside our "normal" 1 hour drive from home range.

So another souvenir gained "by accident".

 

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Just now, on4bam said:
12 minutes ago, hzoi said:

For the record, it's been the third Saturday of August, since 2011.

 

 

OK, but I didn't notice. I don't subscribe to newsletter or other "promo mails". I just look at "all activity" on these forums and don't read everything. When away from home I don't visit the forums either. Since we basically go caching every week, mostly on Sundays (except when F1 is on or we have other commitments) it's a day like any other. Had we not been away for 4 days (Aug 15th is a national holiday here) we would not have been outside (too much rain until early afternoon) but we left our B&B in the morning and made our way home along a few unfound caches of a series that has a cache in each Flemish town (all 308, still 11 to go) as they are outside our "normal" 1 hour drive from home range.

So another souvenir gained "by accident".

 

Just pointing out when it happens, not judging your methods.  Glad you had a nice weekend of caching.

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Groundspeak could give every one if its members a $1000 and some of you will still find something to complain about.

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12 minutes ago, bflentje said:

Groundspeak could give every one if its members a $1000 and some of you will still find something to complain about.

 

Especially if they gave it in cash. How tedious. Just use direct deposit.

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I would turn it down, I can't be bought (especially for such a tiny amount).

 

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10 hours ago, on4bam said:

 

Strange, we've been caching since 2006 and we have 404 unfound caches within a 10 Km range, 362 of them are not on our "to do list" but should we ever decide we want to go for a promotion (doubt if that will ever happen) we could probably do it all on foot or by bike from home. Every promotion that does not require T5 caches we just get by doing what we always do, no planning no effort.....just business as usual.

I wasn't even aware of the Int. geocaching day and even that we got when we got home from a 4 day weekend away from home.

 

 

"404 unfound caches" - anybody else get that joke?

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2 hours ago, bflentje said:

Groundspeak could give every one if its members a $1000 and some of you will still find something to complain about.

They always forget that not everyone lives in the United States.

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3 hours ago, bflentje said:

Groundspeak could give every one if its members a $1000 and some of you will still find something to complain about.

They haven't done it yet, and there are already complaints... :P

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On 8/20/2019 at 1:28 PM, bflentje said:

Groundspeak could give every one if its members a $1000 and some of you will still find something to complain about.

 

But if all the complaining stopped then all the people who love to get self-righteous and annoyed about all the complaining wouldn't have anything to complain about themselves!  What would they all do with their time?!?

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A little behind, but a few of us in Korea had talked about this. First, I don't think we were being "punished" or that it was unfair. I ran into the same problem when I discovered the FEDY.... used up 99% of the caches nearby.  So, traveling a little further wasnt tons of fun, but it was my own fault for eating up everything close. 

 

However, the game caused me to skip caches I normally would have found... Because they didn't contain the reward I needed at the time. They contained the reward at the next step. We're not supposed to skip caches (unless We choose to) , it goes against the idea of what geocaching is about. 

 

So, penalized or punished? Not really... But, I do feel your pain. I didn't like traveling so far, to skip caches, just to return a day or 2 later for those skipped caches. 

 

But, hey, thanks for pushing the app on us 😂

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5 hours ago, mighty_lamp75 said:

We're not supposed to skip caches (unless We choose to)

 

I like your post, but ya know, you did choose to... ;P

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8 hours ago, mighty_lamp75 said:

However, the game caused me to skip caches I normally would have found... Because they didn't contain the reward I needed at the time. They contained the reward at the next step. We're not supposed to skip caches (unless We choose to) , it goes against the idea of what geocaching is about. 

 

I can't find that anywhere in the guidelines, a newsletter, or any blog.  Please send a link.   Thanks.  :)

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21 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:
8 hours ago, mighty_lamp75 said:

We're not supposed to skip caches (unless We choose to) , it goes against the idea of what geocaching is about. 

 

I can't find that anywhere in the guidelines, a newsletter, or any blog.  Please send a link.   Thanks.  :)

 

The closest, I guess, is in the guidelines for what makes a challenge cache unacceptable:

 

Not finding caches: design that limits or punishes any element of finding caches.

 

There’s already been a discussion on why the rules for a Groundspeak promotion are different to those for a challenge...

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10 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

The closest, I guess, is in the guidelines for what makes a challenge cache unacceptable:

 

Yep. Bolded the relevant segment ;)

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Mystery at the Museum ?

Well first off, I didn't know what I was getting into.

Didn't know how many caches I needed to find after getting the detective and 6 evidence caches.

 Ok . . . for the next step I suddenly realized that I then needed to find 15 more "specific" jewel caches.

That's doable.

Not knowing this, I wasted some jewel caches by finding and logging them while I was out looking for the evidence caches . . .  OOoops ! [:(].

Oh well they just added to my overall cache count. No great disaster.

But then I had to search hither and yon for even more of the jewel caches that I realized I needed.

Then, after collecting all of the jewels, I suddenly found that I needed to find another 35 caches to get the vault open !

Holy cache deficiencies Batman !! There aren't that many caches in my town that I haven't found to fill this requirement!

So that means gas up the bat-mobile, we are going to need to  "Travel"  Robin !!

Additionally, with the deadline looming near, and with my work schedule, and not having been given the opportunity to plan ahead for new far reaching cache runs, finding 35 more far away caches was next to impossible.

As such, I had to give up on Mysteries at the Museum after I had collected all of the jewels.

I still have them, somewhere, maybe in the bottom of my cache bag.

I can return them if I knew where to send them.

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The final 35 caches were not known at the start of the promo.  However, it was "MYSTERY at the Museum".  No total number of necessary finds was ever given. That should have been a clue.  Some investigating and calculating was even needed to find out how many were at each of the stages.  With just a little attention, early finishers were posting in their logs and on social media that a total of 57 were required within a few days of the start.

 

In regard to 'skipping' caches, does everyone religiously adhere to logging caches online in exact chronological order as they are physically found? If you accidentally forget to log one early in the day, do you go back and delete 50 cache logs, insert the forgotten one and then relog the 50?  Does it matter only in context to this promotion?  What is the acceptable time span for this threshhold, minutes or days?  Is it always cheating or only if one is pursuing this promotion?  What if there are other circumstances?  Is it really that egregious, a felony, a mortal sin?

 I have re read the rules and FAQ for MATM and nothing says you have to log the caches chronologically, it does say you must find the clues in order, which is a digital aspect, not physical.  I don't think I have ever read anywhere where the online log must absolutely match by order and date/time the physical log for all of geocaching.   Find the cache, sign the log, share your story online.  It may be implied or conventional wisdom but not explicit. I know it is splitting hairs and playing with the 'simple' rules -which are actually guidelines, not rules.  (Still, just sayin').

 

Scenarios:

1. A linear out and back trail with caches.  You could walk pass a gem cache and find your final evidence cache and log the gem on the return.  Completely legit?

2.  A looping trail with caches.   Do you do 2 or more loops, or backtrack the necessary distance, maybe only 528 ft, or does it really matter?  Maybe only individually.  Who is going to know? You found them within 10 minutes of each other.  What about your physical limitations or time limitations?  Just find them in linear order but log them in accordance with MATM to qualify.

3.  On a trail with a steep hill climb. The gem cache is at the top of the hill and the evidence cache is on the flat, shaded but further away.  You would rather do the hill when your legs are fresh, earlier in the day when it is 70 F and not after walking several miles, low on water, and when the temp is 90 F at noon.

4. On a trip or not.  You have a 2 hour window in daylight to go to a park only open in the day to find a gem cache.  You hotel has an LPC evidence cache you need first but can get anytime later that night.  The business trip doesn't allow for extended caching. Several hours apart and different locations. Still on the same day.  What if there is a flight between and the 2 are in different cities?

5.  What if you found 200 caches in one day all over the place but didn't record and don't remember the order?  It doesn't really matter because somewhere in there you will have gotten the 22 required in the right combination several times to qualify.

 

There are plenty of What Ifs and scenarios.  These are just grey areas that are all along the grey scale which is different for each geocacher.  Who is to say what is reasonable or right.  It falls in with couple/family accounts, did everyone climb the tree, did you solve the puzzle yourself, did you actually touch the log when caching with a group, using a temporary group name on the physical log, leapfrogging,  etc....   If you want the souvenir, find the appropriate clues by finding the caches and celebrate.  

 

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18 minutes ago, OwenfromKC said:

In regard to 'skipping' caches, does everyone religiously adhere to logging caches online in exact chronological order as they are physically found? If you accidentally forget to log one early in the day, do you go back and delete 50 cache logs, insert the forgotten one and then relog the 50? 

 

Yes. Since I "log" on my Oregon there's a timestamp and when importing geocache_visits.txt into GSAK the caches ARE in chronological order. So far I only forgot to log a cache at the time we found it twice and I edited all logs of that day so they are in the correct order.

 

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15 minutes ago, on4bam said:
43 minutes ago, OwenfromKC said:

In regard to 'skipping' caches, does everyone religiously adhere to logging caches online in exact chronological order as they are physically found? If you accidentally forget to log one early in the day, do you go back and delete 50 cache logs, insert the forgotten one and then relog the 50? 

 

Yes. Since I "log" on my Oregon there's a timestamp and when importing geocache_visits.txt into GSAK the caches ARE in chronological order. So far I only forgot to log a cache at the time we found it twice and I edited all logs of that day so they are in the correct order.

 

Ditto. I keep field notes, and they are created as I find them, meaning when they're uploaded (let alon if I log immediately) they are posted in the order they are logged. It's extra effort to log them out of order.  I didn't personally resort to that, but it's perfectly reasonable to expect that other people will in order to not do the extra work of compensating for caches that would otherwise not count towards the 'scoring' if logged in chronological order.

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2 hours ago, OwenfromKC said:

In regard to 'skipping' caches, does everyone religiously adhere to logging caches online in exact chronological order as they are physically found?

 

Yep.  Other than events n some virtuals, I've put the time of every cache found since we started too.   :)

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18 hours ago, OwenfromKC said:

In regard to 'skipping' caches, does everyone religiously adhere to logging caches online in exact chronological order as they are physically found? If you accidentally forget to log one early in the day, do you go back and delete 50 cache logs, insert the forgotten one and then relog the 50? 

Like others, I use field notes (a.k.a. drafts), which I create immediately after each find. Therefore it would be more effort to log the finds out of sequence later.

 

18 hours ago, OwenfromKC said:

Does it matter only in context to this promotion?  What is the acceptable time span for this threshhold, minutes or days?  Is it always cheating or only if one is pursuing this promotion?  What if there are other circumstances?  Is it really that egregious, a felony, a mortal sin?

I consider it cheating regarding the promotion. Because the challenge was basically "First find the evidence, then find the jewels, then find 35 more caches" (emphasis by me). It didn't say "First log your finds of the evidence, ...". You can either accept the challenge or not, but using work-arounds to gain the souvenirs without actually fulfilling the challenge is, in a way, cheating in the context of this specific challenge.

It's a bit similar to logging finds with a different date than the actual physical finds, when you're on a "streak". AFAIK there is no guideline saying that the date of your online log must match that of your find. Owners are not allowed to delete logs, which obviously have a wrong date, when the player has signed the physical logbook. Therefore, you don't violate any guidelines by using wrong dates for your online logs, but you're still cheating regarding the "streak".

Edited by baer2006
Misleading typo

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(Perhaps it has been written before. I have not read everything but I have read people complaining about and cheating to get the souvenir.)

 

You do not need to have all the souvenirs. Live goes on even if you haven't solved the latest detective story. I have missed so many souvenirs in my life (geocaching day? again? :-)), sometimes I get them (unintended or by plannnig as with this souvenir series) and sometimes I don't.

 

Playing it as intended might give you a challenge or not. But cheating is just useless - a souvenir earned by wrong logging (just to get that souvenir) is worth nothing.

It is like putting a country sticker to your suitcase without having visited the country. It looks nice, but....? Remember that those badges aren't there to show how great you are but to remember a nice holiday or - in this case - a nice challenge finding 57 "right" caches. (Or just finding the right 7 ones to earn 2 souvenirs - that's nice, too, isn't it?)

 

Cheating with streaks is even more useless. I remember cachers being proud (and telling in each log) about their 1000 days streak - but it was obvious that they cheated. Is this worth anything? I have "only" a 111 day streak (enough for two challenge caches ;-)) but I have done it as intended (and made half of the finds by bike :-)) - that is what I am proud about even without telling everyone each day...

 

 

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Yep, you don't need to earn every souvenir, just like you don't need to find every cache.  My first response to people complaining about the promo is just a recommendation to think about it; is it really that important? Do you need to earn this souvenir? Or would you like to? Much like other things in life, we want things, but we're not necessarily entitled to things.  Souvenirs are a bonus. Especially in tiered promotional period, the whole point is that not everyone will earn every souvenir, nor is intended to; so yeah, it's going to get harder, and for whatever reason, many will not be able to earn some, while many will. C'est la vie. It's a digital image.

 

That said, there's also no objective "fault" or "cheating" when it comes to earning them, if the mechanics exist to do so. If someone chooses to log caches out of order, then that's just fine. That doesn't impact anyone except themselves, so it's not worth complaining if someone does it, let alone call them a "cheater". What does that accomplish? If they were literally cheating someone else out of something they'd otherwise earn, that'd be different. But that's not the case. "Cheating" is a loaded term and it gets thrown around a whole lot in these forums when someone feels that their method of doing something is more "correct" - even when there is no written rule to state as much.  It implies competition when in most cases there is none.

 

So.

We don't have to earn every souvenir, we don't have to find every geocache.

But we also don't have to make people who want to, feel bad about doing what they are allowed to do, to do so, if what they do affects no one but themselves.

 

Personally, in those cases, I'd rather encourage the more rewarding activity, or encourage a change in values so that not earning/finding isn't as personally affecting.

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Hi All, I feel like I am missing something. I earned some souvenirs for the Mardi Gras and mythical creatures themes but haven't seen souvenirs the last few times I've logged in. Do only premium members get souvenirs now, or is it my app? I am on Android. Thanks!

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On 9/19/2019 at 5:04 PM, lolleys said:

Hi All, I feel like I am missing something. I earned some souvenirs for the Mardi Gras and mythical creatures themes but haven't seen souvenirs the last few times I've logged in. Do only premium members get souvenirs now, or is it my app? I am on Android. Thanks!

 

I see 17 souvenirs on your public profile.  Where are you looking?

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On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 11:04 AM, lolleys said:

Hi All, I feel like I am missing something. I earned some souvenirs for the Mardi Gras and mythical creatures themes but haven't seen souvenirs the last few times I've logged in. Do only premium members get souvenirs now, or is it my app? I am on Android. Thanks!

 

Souvenirs are given for promotions, states, certain dates, and some events.  You need to cache to get them.

It looks like the timeframe between now and the cache carnival, maybe you simply didn't cache when promotion souvenirs were available, or not the required "amount" to receive a souvenir.

I needed to mail the site to remove a souvenir I wasn't looking to do. 

 - It was added just because I cached a day during the promotion last month.  :)

 

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On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 11:04 AM, lolleys said:

Hi All, I feel like I am missing something...

 

You might be if you're looking for times when promotions, or dates needed to know when other souvenirs come out.   :)

On your profile dashboard, click the link on top that says "community",  click on "blog", and that might keep you up-to-date on "souvenir days".

Check in there a few times a month (since you don't get notifications as a basic member).

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On 8/20/2019 at 11:29 AM, TeamRabbitRun said:

 

"404 unfound caches" - anybody else get that joke?

 

Yep!

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