APE Cache Found! Your thoughts?

[RuideAlmeida]

Anyone know what happened there?

 

The container was inside a bamboo field... once in a while they die and collapse. The container was (still is) buried under a "mountain" of bamboos.

[+Manville Possum]

Do you think that we would be having this discussion if the original container for Mission 7: Crab Creek (Gaithersburg, Maryland) was found? The Mission 9 APE cache has had special treatment (how many Going APE events have there been?) that no other APE cache has received.

 

No, we just don't get the same PR here on the east coast but I sure would consider teaming up and searching for it.

[+thebruce0]

I'm torn. I still favour reactivation - the arugments posted here make absolute sense.

If it's the same container, in the same location, hidden the same way, and it was only archived because the container had disappeared, and it's an exceptional cache, then why not?

A different container isn't the same cache - so logging the traditional replacement (which I've done) isn't logging the original container, so I don't think back-logging by those who found the replace is reasonable.

 

However, if the original was muggled repeatedly, despite best efforts to keep it protected, then it's not unlikely that attempts may be made again, and if this is the actual last of the official APE containers that was hidden here, it seems like it would have a better life stored and saved for display if/when it does become the last known to actually exist.

 

The only reason I could see for not reactivating it would be the issue of possible theft again. But really that's it. Doesn't matter if it's "just an icon". Nothing else affects me as a cacher, and I realize that the APE series is very unique and memorable. If it's reactivated then many people can enjoy that excursion to find it, and those who had the excursion but never found the actual container (like me) can enjoy the excursion again and finally get a chance to see the original and get the icon. But if it's reactivated, I would certainly also express my concern for its safety.

 

What other means for protection could be employed? I think asking the gov't for some form of protected site status may be overkill (it was a marketing gimmick). What about making an exception for this particular cache and making a more permanent display with permission from the land owner (is it gov't or conservation property?) such as cementing a post and kiosk of sorts. *shrug*

[+Zepp914]

I don't see the point in putting a geocache in a museum. Who wants to see a container behind glass? We aren't exactly talking about Abraham Lincoln's hat here. Remember that whatever happens sets a precedent and they only need one container in the museum. What would happen if another lost APE container ever turns up? I guess it would be best to throw it away or use it to make another non-APE related cache.

[+dprovan]

Do you think that we would be having this discussion if the original container for Mission 7: Crab Creek (Gaithersburg, Maryland) was found?

Yes, I sure do. In fact, if anything, an APE cache lost even longer in the past would be a way bigger deal. Does the logic that led to the recovery search for #9 make sense for the other APE caches?

[+DragonsWest]

If it's reactivated, then what about all the people who have visited from all over the world and experienced the cache, the tunnel, the whole adventure, but only been able to log the "reclaimed" cache? If it's just about making this rare cache type available again then all those people should be able to log it too. I mean otherwise are they expected to go to the expense of visiting again?

 

Merging the logs would be the humane thing to do. But I can imagine someone in Seattle saying, "Yeah, but that's a lot of work." Geocaching is a lot of work, being a code monkey means coaxing a machine to do the work for you.

[+DragonsWest]

Just an opinion from someone who only started last year. I really appreciate the older caches so if this one were to be reactivated, the year placed would be the main motivation for it being a target cache if I were in the area. And, especially since it was found 4 (?) Years after archival-- as was the listing removed. Which leads to my question: I've looked at the A.P.E. cache in Brazil and the online log says it had been archived once. Anyone know what happened there?

 

I read some of the absolute tome of discussion on that one - it's very well looked after by the preserve down there and has become a major geo-tourism attraction (several cachers from my area ventured below the Equator to visit it. That one should last forever. I felt Mission 9 was rather casually archived - such a treasure, too.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I don't see the point in putting a geocache in a museum.

 

 

There's a rather nice geocaching exhibit at the Adirondacks museum in Blue Mountain Lakes, NY. The exhibit itself can't be logged but there's also a "real" geocache just outside the museum that can be found.

 

I think that most, if not all, of the Geocaching Adventures Exhibit (GPS Maze) "caches" were set up at science/discovery museums. The GPS Maze icon is almost as rare as the APE cache icon. It only existed at 16 locations from 2007 to 2014 in the U.S. There have been a handful of location in Canada and Europe since.

 

 

[+Zepp914]

 

I think that most, if not all, of the Geocaching Adventures Exhibit (GPS Maze) "caches" were set up at science/discovery museums. The GPS Maze icon is almost as rare as the APE cache icon. It only existed at 16 locations from 2007 to 2014 in the U.S. There have been a handful of location in Canada and Europe since.

 

The exhibit was less than 6 miles from my house. Of course I didn't know about it because I didn't cache back then, so thanks for reminding me of another cool thing I missed.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Do you think that we would be having this discussion if the original container for Mission 7: Crab Creek (Gaithersburg, Maryland) was found?

Yes, I sure do. In fact, if anything, an APE cache lost even longer in the past would be a way bigger deal. Does the logic that led to the recovery search for #9 make sense for the other APE caches?

 

Oh, it probably would get some discussion. I'm not so sure that it would have been initiated by a survey posted by Groundspeak asking what should be done with the container.

 

 

[+noncentric]

The recent Podcacher podcast discusses the recovery effort.

 

The original cache container was found and some of the promo cards were also found. The cards were supposedly in excellent condition. The original cache, along with several other caches in the general area, were muggled by a persistent individual. Skip ahead to 54:00 in the podcast to hear about the muggling and the local cachers' thoughts about avoiding another muggling if the cache is unarchived.

 

For those that are not aware, this is not a park-and-grab. It's a 2+ mile hike, and can be done by either walking through the tunnel or traveling along a different trail.

[+GrateBear]

I don't see the point in putting a geocache in a museum. Who wants to see a container behind glass? We aren't exactly talking about Abraham Lincoln's hat here. Remember that whatever happens sets a precedent and they only need one container in the museum. What would happen if another lost APE container ever turns up? I guess it would be best to throw it away or use it to make another non-APE related cache.

Thanks for the laugh about Abe's hat! I would walk 2 miles for the cache if replaced, but would not even think of walking that far to see his hat

Oh, and I did vote to reactivate it.

Edited November 16, 2016 by GrateBear

[+thebruce0]

...or biking

[+DanOCan]

I cast my vote to keep it at Groundspeak HQ as a relic and to leave it archived. I think it's great that the original container was recovered but I suspect if restored to the original location it will simply be targeted for muggling again and the next time we might not get so lucky as to find it.

[+cerberus1]

Several cache type have been archived. You want the icon for Locationless (reverse), Groundspeak Block Party, or Groundspeak Lost and Found Party, you're out of luck. Why should Project A.P.E. caches be any different?

Dang, that was fifteen years ago! Yes, we took a vacation to Maryland for the Project A.P.E. cache (and enjoyed virtuals in DC.)

But, if the reason for restoring the cache is so that cachers can get the icon, then bring back Locationless caches so new cachers can get that icon too.

The series is old. Most of the caches seem to have been vandalize by malevolent cachers. How many cachers have actually seen that movie? It was a good series of caches, but it is time to let them rest in peace.

I kinda agree.

We simply lucked out with the timeframe for locationless and a lost and found.

Threads for "bringing back" both are easily found in search here.

Many it seemed were simply looking to add the icons for stats.

 

Seems odd (to me) if folks who missed all the icons available at the time would think it unfair that they're "missing out" on something that happened years before they started.

Those around at the time, well, woulda, coulda, shoulda....

 

It is a part of caching history though, and would make a good addition to other examples of partnerships with Groundspeak over the years - in HQ.

[+Team DEMP]

[i kinda agree.

We simply lucked out with the timeframe for locationless and a lost and found.

Threads for "bringing back" both are easily found in search here.

Many it seemed were simply looking to add the icons for stats.

 

Seems odd (to me) if folks who missed all the icons available at the time would think it unfair that they're "missing out" on something that happened years before they started.

Those around at the time, well, woulda, coulda, shoulda....

 

It is a part of caching history though, and would make a good addition to other examples of partnerships with Groundspeak over the years - in HQ.

 

Except that APE caches aren't discontinued like the others mentioned.

[+Ambrosia]

I had the opportunity to help in the recovery of the Ape cache, but my husband was out of state and I didn't feel like making the drive up to Hyack all on my own. I knew in my heart that the team would find the Ape cache and I would miss out on a historic event. I'm frustrated at my lazy self now. It was exciting to see the whole thing play out online as it was happening, however.

 

I've had mixed feelings about what should happen to the container. I really would like for it to be put back out at the original location. Of course, my main worry is that it will just be vandalized again. If I knew that it would be damaged or stolen again, I think it should just be left at HQ to preserve the interest factor. But I've heard some of the ideas about how to keep it thief - proof, and they sound good, so I voted to have it re-activated.

 

It's true that caches can be unarchived after they have been archived. But Groundspeak prefers that this does not happen after the cache has been archived for about three months. Of course, exceptions can be made if there's a reason, like this one. Groundspeak can make that exception because it's their website. They just thought it would be nice to include everyone in that decision. I was rather pleased that they did that.

 

I've found both the Ape cache, and the replacement (non icon) cache. It's a really cool hike, one of the more memorable caching experiences, especially when doing it as a group.

 

Here's a picture I took of Signal with the original Ape cache:

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Ambrosia

[+Winos_Seattle]

Answer to a forum question: The tunnel is usually closed from end of october to early June, but the Annette trailhead and trail up to the Iron Horse trail is open. I've hiked the 508 foot incline both in the summer and in winter with both boots and snowshoes. It's not a really bad or difficult hike. The idea of traveling it around is neat, but I've also hear that they're not too keen on traveling caches, so I'm not sure if that'll pass.

 

---

 

I also believe that a cache is meant to be found and not meant to be stored away in a closet. As the architect to this recovery and someone who has not logged it (although, I did find it ) its perfectly natural for me to lean on the idea to reactivate it. It is the original container too. PLUS: we've got some great ideas on how to protect it. High tech and low tech ideas. This is 2016...anything is possible.

 

In the end, my intention was to make this cache special again. The look on Moun10bike's and Bryan's face upon returning it to HQ the following Monday was priceless. It's as if their child had come home. I loved seeing that expression. I didn't realize how big of a discovery this was until my time spent reading forum threads from around the world took me into the weeeeee hours of the evening every night since Friday Nov. 11th. I'm extremely proud of the team we picked for this mission. Every one of them was instrumental in some way in making this happen. I'm flabbergasted by the outpour of support from the geocaching community and really hope this makes an impact on current and future geocachers worldwide for a very long time.

[+Winos_Seattle]

The recent Podcacher podcast discusses the recovery effort.

 

The original cache container was found and some of the promo cards were also found. The cards were supposedly in excellent condition. The original cache, along with several other caches in the general area, were muggled by a persistent individual. Skip ahead to 54:00 in the podcast to hear about the muggling and the local cachers' thoughts about avoiding another muggling if the cache is unarchived.

 

For those that are not aware, this is not a park-and-grab. It's a 2+ mile hike, and can be done by either walking through the tunnel or traveling along a different trail.

 

We're going to go back up in May with metal detectors to try to find things that we didn't recover. i.e. Lids, trackables, coins, metal swag, and we'd also be looking for muggled containers to GC79 and the iron horse express. The idea is to scour the area and make sure we've found at least 90% of what we know has been muggled. You're welcome to join us, noncentric.

[+Winos_Seattle]

Do you think that we would be having this discussion if the original container for Mission 7: Crab Creek (Gaithersburg, Maryland) was found?

Yes, I sure do. In fact, if anything, an APE cache lost even longer in the past would be a way bigger deal. Does the logic that led to the recovery search for #9 make sense for the other APE caches?

 

Oh, it probably would get some discussion. I'm not so sure that it would have been initiated by a survey posted by Groundspeak asking what should be done with the container.

I'd love to be in on that discussion. Let me know if our team can help.

 

Although I had a conversation with Clever Cacher out of Melbourne Australia about Mission #8 and we agreed last night that that one is most likely gone. The cache was hidden in a highly used public park just east of Melbourne, 100 feet south of a major street in 1.5 terrain. I'd hate to say it, but even the recovery of a charred lid or swag or TBs would be extremely difficult 11 years later, if not impossible.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Winos_Seattle

[+dprovan]

I also believe that a cache is meant to be found and not meant to be stored away in a closet. As the architect to this recovery and someone who has not logged it (although, I did find it ) its perfectly natural for me to lean on the idea to reactivate it.

I think you and the rest of the team should definitely be allowed to log it whether it's reactivated or not.

[+Winos_Seattle]

I also believe that a cache is meant to be found and not meant to be stored away in a closet. As the architect to this recovery and someone who has not logged it (although, I did find it ) its perfectly natural for me to lean on the idea to reactivate it.

I think you and the rest of the team should definitely be allowed to log it whether it's reactivated or not.

Please tell that to Moun10bike, Bryan Roth and Jeremy. 4 of the 10 never logged it.

[+fbingha]

I also believe that a cache is meant to be found and not meant to be stored away in a closet. As the architect to this recovery and someone who has not logged it (although, I did find it ) its perfectly natural for me to lean on the idea to reactivate it.

I think you and the rest of the team should definitely be allowed to log it whether it's reactivated or not.

There is no debate about that. Anyone on the rescue team can log the cache. Like any other archived cache, they found it, they can log it.

[+bflentje]

I cast my vote to keep it at Groundspeak HQ as a relic and to leave it archived. I think it's great that the original container was recovered but I suspect if restored to the original location it will simply be targeted for muggling again and the next time we might not get so lucky as to find it.

 

This is lame because I suspect those that already have the icon are voting for the museum and those that don't have the icon are voting for reactivation.

[+Ambrosia]

I also believe that a cache is meant to be found and not meant to be stored away in a closet. As the architect to this recovery and someone who has not logged it (although, I did find it ) its perfectly natural for me to lean on the idea to reactivate it.

I think you and the rest of the team should definitely be allowed to log it whether it's reactivated or not.

There is no debate about that. Anyone on the rescue team can log the cache. Like any other archived cache, they found it, they can log it.

 

The listing is locked, so one would have to get permission from Moun10Bike to log it.

[+Ambrosia]

I cast my vote to keep it at Groundspeak HQ as a relic and to leave it archived. I think it's great that the original container was recovered but I suspect if restored to the original location it will simply be targeted for muggling again and the next time we might not get so lucky as to find it.

 

This is lame because I suspect those that already have the icon are voting for the museum and those that don't have the icon are voting for reactivation.

 

I have the icon and I voted to have it unarchived.

[+Winos_Seattle]

I cast my vote to keep it at Groundspeak HQ as a relic and to leave it archived. I think it's great that the original container was recovered but I suspect if restored to the original location it will simply be targeted for muggling again and the next time we might not get so lucky as to find it.

 

This is lame because I suspect those that already have the icon are voting for the museum and those that don't have the icon are voting for reactivation.

yes. I would have to completely agree with that. That's why suggestions and comments are important. Make your point, but make it loud.

[+mertat]

I cast my vote to keep it at Groundspeak HQ as a relic and to leave it archived. I think it's great that the original container was recovered but I suspect if restored to the original location it will simply be targeted for muggling again and the next time we might not get so lucky as to find it.

 

This is lame because I suspect those that already have the icon are voting for the museum and those that don't have the icon are voting for reactivation.

 

I have the icon and I voted to have it unarchived.

And I don't have the icon and I voted to keep it at Groundspeak HQ and leave it archived.

[+Ambrosia]

I cast my vote to keep it at Groundspeak HQ as a relic and to leave it archived. I think it's great that the original container was recovered but I suspect if restored to the original location it will simply be targeted for muggling again and the next time we might not get so lucky as to find it.

 

This is lame because I suspect those that already have the icon are voting for the museum and those that don't have the icon are voting for reactivation.

 

I have the icon and I voted to have it unarchived.

And I don't have the icon and I voted to keep it at Groundspeak HQ and leave it archived.

 

[+narcissa]

It's in a place I likely won't ever visit, but I voted to reactivate because I know it would mean a lot to many geocachers.

[+Winos_Seattle]

It's in a place I likely won't ever visit, but I voted to reactivate because I know it would mean a lot to many geocachers.

Thank you.

[+thebruce0]

And I've already found the replacement but would love to visit again just to find the actual container (and get the icon).

[+Wooley Moran]

Please, by all means, reactivate it! If its safety is still in question, why not reactivate it at Groundspeak HQ but still allow folks who find it to get the icon. (I'm still bummed that I missed getting the icon after Geowoodstock, right before it went missing, due to getting over an illness, so, yeah, personal agenda here!) It's a fun and iconic (pun intended!) cache, so why not keep it around? Since the powers that be are, well, the powers that be, it seems that it could be reactivated/recreated as The Ape Cache with icon available and still be at HQ. Just my two cents' worth! Thanks!

[+bflentje]

I cast my vote to keep it at Groundspeak HQ as a relic and to leave it archived. I think it's great that the original container was recovered but I suspect if restored to the original location it will simply be targeted for muggling again and the next time we might not get so lucky as to find it.

 

This is lame because I suspect those that already have the icon are voting for the museum and those that don't have the icon are voting for reactivation.

 

I have the icon and I voted to have it unarchived.

 

[+narcissa]

Please, by all means, reactivate it! If its safety is still in question, why not reactivate it at Groundspeak HQ but still allow folks who find it to get the icon. (I'm still bummed that I missed getting the icon after Geowoodstock, right before it went missing, due to getting over an illness, so, yeah, personal agenda here!) It's a fun and iconic (pun intended!) cache, so why not keep it around? Since the powers that be are, well, the powers that be, it seems that it could be reactivated/recreated as The Ape Cache with icon available and still be at HQ. Just my two cents' worth! Thanks!

 

I don't agree with this concept. The cache is a complete experience, not just an icon.

[+fbingha]

Either put it back and accept its eventual muggling or put it somewhere secure as a tribute cache but with no icon.. I voted for the first option.

[+Mudfrog]

Either put it back and accept its eventual muggling or put it somewhere secure as a tribute cache but with no icon.. I voted for the first option.

Either of these makes perfect sense but it wouldn't surprise me a bit to see something silly done.

 

For instance, GS knows that icons sell. Doesn't matter what they represent, they just look good on the page. People want em, and as we can see in this thread, some really badly. I'm betting the container ends up at headquarters to make the icon easier for everyone to get.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Mudfrog

[+FunnyNose]

I'm betting the container ends up at headquarters to make the icon easier for everyone to get.

 

A “Participation Trophy”

[+B.l.e.s.s.e.d]

The one place that just NEEDS a Project A.P.E. cache is Bigfoot Country!

 

 

I voted for placing in the original location and reactivating the icon.

 

-B.l.e.s.s.e.d

[+Winos_Seattle]

I'm betting the container ends up at headquarters to make the icon easier for everyone to get.

 

A “Participation Trophy”

I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up at headquarters, but I doubt and that's a big DOUBT, that they would make the icon or logging it available if it stays at HQ. I believe Geocaching.com would only make the icon available if the "original" container was back on it's "original" GZ. Good news: We found the "original" container and we've got the "original" GZ available to us if the caching public wants it back enough.

[+narcissa]

I'm betting the container ends up at headquarters to make the icon easier for everyone to get.

 

A “Participation Trophy”

I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up at headquarters, but I doubt and that's a big DOUBT, that they would make the icon or logging it available if it stays at HQ. I believe Geocaching.com would only make the icon available if the "original" container was back on it's "original" GZ. Good news: We found the "original" container and we've got the "original" GZ available to us if the caching public wants it back enough.

 

Yeah, letting people log it for the icon in a controlled setting like that just doesn't seem like something they'd do, especially after taking such a hard-line about not replacing the original containers.

[+lamoracke]

Course, all this talk of voting is not quite accurate. The survey right now is to get suggestions. The actual voting will occur once Groundspeak has gone through all the surveys and come up with candidates to vote on. This was clarified to us when we were talking to Bryan that day of the podcast. Will look forward to voting on it soon.

[+Twinklekitkat]

If it's reactivated, then what about all the people who have visited from all over the world and experienced the cache, the tunnel, the whole adventure, but only been able to log the "reclaimed" cache? If it's just about making this rare cache type available again then all those people should be able to log it too. I mean otherwise are they expected to go to the expense of visiting again?

 

Maybe the icon should be awarded if you found either one. Of course, only if GC300N0 were archived and replaced with the re-activated original. If you found both, your Ape cache find count should only say one (unless of course you find Southern Bowl, then you would have 2)

[+Winos_Seattle]

If it's reactivated, then what about all the people who have visited from all over the world and experienced the cache, the tunnel, the whole adventure, but only been able to log the "reclaimed" cache? If it's just about making this rare cache type available again then all those people should be able to log it too. I mean otherwise are they expected to go to the expense of visiting again?

 

Maybe the icon should be awarded if you found either one. Of course, only if GC300N0 were archived and replaced with the re-activated original. If you found both, your Ape cache find count should only say one (unless of course you find Southern Bowl, then you would have 2)

 

The problem with that is that the Tribute cache GC300N0 is "not" the A.P.E. cache. I fall under the status of having "Found" the recovered "original" cache and not having been able to log it as a find. I started too late. boo-hoo.

[+narcissa]

If it's reactivated, then what about all the people who have visited from all over the world and experienced the cache, the tunnel, the whole adventure, but only been able to log the "reclaimed" cache? If it's just about making this rare cache type available again then all those people should be able to log it too. I mean otherwise are they expected to go to the expense of visiting again?

 

Maybe the icon should be awarded if you found either one. Of course, only if GC300N0 were archived and replaced with the re-activated original. If you found both, your Ape cache find count should only say one (unless of course you find Southern Bowl, then you would have 2)

 

Remember, while some people enjoy the side game of collecting them, icons are not actually awards. They merely denote different types of caches.

 

Part of being a well-adjusted geocacher is learning to accept that caches are ephemeral.

Edited November 18, 2016 by narcissa

[+dprovan]

Remember, while some people enjoy the side game of collecting them, icons are not actually awards. They merely denote different types of caches.

You are correct that that's the theory of icons in general, but I think it's clear that in the single case of the ape cache, the icon was intended as a reward when originally created, and it's rarity has made it even more of a reward in practice.

[+narcissa]

Remember, while some people enjoy the side game of collecting them, icons are not actually awards. They merely denote different types of caches.

You are correct that that's the theory of icons in general, but I think it's clear that in the single case of the ape cache, the icon was intended as a reward when originally created, and it's rarity has made it even more of a reward in practice.

 

The fact that it is rare obviously makes it more desirable to people interesting in collecting them, but it's still just a cache type and it doesn't follow that the icon should be "awarded" to a geocacher who found an entirely different cache. If it is restored in its original form so more geocachers can find it as intended, that's nice for them, but let's not get too silly about the whole thing.

[RuideAlmeida]

... let's not get too silly about the whole thing.

 

Being a privileged spectator of geocachers from all over the world arriving in Brazil with the sole purpose of finding the last (so far) APE Cache... I wouldn't call them silly.

 

Maybe strong commitment with this game would fit best.

[+dprovan]

The fact that it is rare obviously makes it more desirable to people interesting in collecting them, but it's still just a cache type and it doesn't follow that the icon should be "awarded" to a geocacher who found an entirely different cache.

I still say it is an award and should be awarded, but I agree completely that it should only given for what the award was originally invented for.

[+narcissa]

The fact that it is rare obviously makes it more desirable to people interesting in collecting them, but it's still just a cache type and it doesn't follow that the icon should be "awarded" to a geocacher who found an entirely different cache.

I still say it is an award and should be awarded, but I agree completely that it should only given for what the award was originally invented for.

 

Yes, I understand that they feel like an award to people who place value on them. No need to defend your personal perception of the APE caches.

 

I hope it becomes available for those who feel a need to add this "award" to their profiles.