Issues with caches placed for merit badges?

[+ArtieD]

In our area, I have seen decent hides placed by scouts, a great girl scout hide and some downright bad ones like this one that was placed with terrible initial coordinates and updated to coordinates that were not much better. Many experienced cachers have had zero luck finding this one and no one has found it to date. One caching friend of mine who is involved in scouting has offered help, but has gotten no response. The hider hasn't logged in since July and has seemingly abandoned it.

 

So, I was wondering if any of you have had issues with caches placed by scouts (both boy and girl) in order to get a merit badge? What have been your experiences?

Edited September 13, 2013 by Arthur & Trillian

[+Panther&Pine]

Same, we've found a few of them. Some good, some nuteral and a few bad.

I don't think it is a good idea overall to have hiding caches in ANY group's badge requirements.

My scouts have a hard enough time remembering to bring their uniforms, let alone keeping track of a cache. trackables on the other hand, while they don't have any instant gratification seem to do just fine.

[+whh0]

You might find this thread interesting.

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=315161&st=0&p=5296102&hl=scouts&fromsearch=1entry5296102

[+bflentje]

We all have seen this. Now what?

[+ArtieD]

Well, it's just my opinion, but if the Boy and Girl Scouts are going to have badges for geocaching, they should re-evaluate the requirements at the very least. Preferably, they should not be able to get the badge unless they maintain the cache for, say, a year.

[+redwoodkestrel]

I've found quite few boy scout caches and one or two girl scout caches. It seems to me that they eventually end up the same way: unmaintained. I know there are exceptions to this but I'd say at least 80% of the scouting caches I've found have basically been abandoned.

 

I think the issue is that as part of the badge requirement, they place a cache... but there's nothing in the requirements about maintaining it. Or it may be mentioned but hey, once you get the badge, why bother?

 

Maybe there should be a second badge - an "advanced geocaching" badge, perhaps? That you can earn once you get the first one, but has a maintenance requirement in it... maintain it for a year, then archive it? Because honestly, I think to keep up these caches in the long-term, you really need a commitment from the troop leader.

 

Or require that any cache they place has to be an ammo can... the few scouting caches I've found that have been ammo cans have held up great over time.

[Clan Riffster]

On topic:

To date, I have not found a single cache placed as part f a merit badge requirement, that was not an abandoned mess within a matter of months, primarily due to poor decisions in container selection, combined with the kids never looking back once they get their patch. I don't doubt that, technically, it is possible for a Scout to place a cache that does not suck, but I haven't experienced that myself, as of yet.

 

Slightly off topic:

I was sorely disappointed to read the requirements for this merir badge. As a former Scout, one of the many things I took pride in with the program is that they were not sell outs to any particular corporate entity. I would have much preferred that the language be ambiguous enough to allow for caching activities on any cache listing service, not mentioning this one by name. I figure had they left the text vague, the vast majority of caches placed would still end up here, and the program would not seem to be toadying to Groundspeak.

[+niraD]

I don't think it's a good idea to hide caches for any reason other than the desire to own and maintain a cache. That includes hiding caches to earn a badge, or to qualify for a challenge cache, or to receive a sweepstakes entry, or to "give back to the community".

 

But unmaintained caches aren't unique to scouts, or even to youth in general. Neither are caches with thoroughly incorrect coordinates.

[+dprovan]

Let's see: force a newbie to hide a cache. Bad because the newbie doesn't know what he's doing. Bad because the newbie's likely to lose interest -- possibly even more likely for a merit badge seeker to lose interest than for a typical newbie -- and not maintain the cache. Of course that's not going to work.

 

I'd be more worried if it happened more often, but I haven't seen that many scout caches to begin with, and many were fine. Last I heard, hiding a cache was one of several options, and I once talked to a scout leader that discouraged this option because of these problems.

 

So I agree the option should be discouraged or eliminated, but as long as it's there and taken, what I would suggest is that some established geocacher -- let's assume that's the merit badge leader, but maybe it's you if you're seeing this as a regular problem among the local troops -- volunteer to own any caches placed. Between the leader and the scout, they can work through the scout doing all the work of ownership -- creating, placing, writing up, and maintaining the cache -- but for the rest of us, the leader's the CO and that's all we have to worry about. That means the CO has to make sure the quality is good enough, something I hope he's doing anyway, and it means the CO will be there once the scout moves on. If the scout gets into geocaching, the cache ownership can be changed later.

 

Unfortunately, I suspect this is mainly a problem when the leader himself knows little or nothing about geocaching, which is perhaps a more important issue to look at.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

Boy Scout Law

 

A Scout is:

 

Trustworthy,

Loyal,

Helpful,

Friendly,

Courteous,

Kind,

Obedient,

Cheerful,

Thrifty,

Brave,

Clean,

and Reverent.

 

Perhaps the need to amend the Boy Scout Law to include Responsible.

...and here I thought it was already in there. Learn sumptin' new every day!

 

Truth of the matter is... the (adult) Pack Leader is supposed to be the responsible party. How can one teach responsibility if they do not exhibit same?

The Terms of Use explain it fairly clearly:

Minors. Our services are not targeted towards, nor intended for use by, anyone under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you are not permitted to use our services. If you are under the age of 18 but at least 13, you may only use our services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by this Agreement.

 

I know, I know... I am preaching to the choir. From the get-go of the Merit Badge thing and scout groups placing hides, I thought it was a baaaad idea.

 

It all falls upon the shoulders of the Scout Leadership.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gitchee-Gummee

[+farrtom]

Hiding a cache is an option not a requirement to earning the meritbadge. As part of this option the scout is to present to the meritbadge counselor a maintenance plan for the cache. If the counselor isn't making sure that the scout has a plan or that they understand the responsibility of owning a cache then I blame the ADULT counselor not just the scout.

 

That being said I see plenty of bad caches by other people too, not just scouts.

[+Don_J]

Hiding a cache is an option not a requirement to earning the meritbadge. As part of this option the scout is to present to the meritbadge counselor a maintenance plan for the cache. If the counselor isn't making sure that the scout has a plan or that they understand the responsibility of owning a cache then I blame the ADULT counselor not just the scout.

 

That being said I see plenty of bad caches by other people too, not just scouts.

 

But, what happens when the merit badge counselor doesn't understand the responsibility of owning a cache in the first place?

 

I think that most of us already know the answer.

 

I have found about ten merit badge caches, all of them abandoned. If they were not already in bad shape when I found them, they eventually were. I also know of three that were placed within 15' of existing caches, that the scouts were not aware of. After being told that their cache would not be published because of the proximity guideline, they never went back to collect their containers. This caused confusion for finders of the original cache, causing the CO's to have and go and retrieve the Scout's abandoned container.

[+K13]

Until the membership policy change in May 2013, I was a Boy Scout Leader and Merit Badge councilor. My Scout Troop has a cache in place and it is maintained on at least a monthly schedule. This is well beyond the requirement for that OPTION on the Geocaching Merit Badge requirements.....

8. Do ONE of the following:

 

a. If a Cache to Eagle® series exists in your council, visit at least three of the 12 locations in the series. Describe the projects that each cache you visit highlights, and explain how the Cache to Eagle® program helps share our Scouting service with the public. b. Create a Scouting-related Travel Bug® that promotes one of the values of Scouting. "Release" your Travel Bug into a public geocache and, with your parent’s permission, monitor its progress at www.geocaching.com for 30 days. Keep a log, and share this with your counselor at the end of the 30-day period. c. Set up and hide a public geocache, following the guidelines in the Geocaching merit badge pamphlet. Before doing so, share with your counselor a six-month maintenance plan for the geocache where you are personally responsible for the first three months. After setting up the geocache, with your parent’s permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor. d. Explain what Cache In Trash Out (CITO) means, and describe how you have practiced CITO at public geocaches or at a CITO event. Then, either create CITO containers to leave at public caches, or host a CITO event for your unit or for the public.

 

Other Merit Badge councilors may do things differently, but when I taught the merit badge at summer camp, placing a cache was not the option chosen for the class. It is a sad statement that the quality of Scout-placed Geocaches are at such a low level, but that is to be expected from an organization that now teaches its members that morals are defined by public opinion.

 

By the way, the cache that my former Troop placed is being adopted by a local cacher to continue its existence in the game and to continue the enjoyment it brings to cachers who may find it.

[+u1bd2005]

One of my favourite fines so far was a one placed by scouts, container was just a usual tupperware container which is no different to a lot of hides, contents were dry, good condition and was a nice place to hide it. the hide itself was up to the standards of any other cache I found, but the location led me to discover a new favourite place for my morning walks before work.

 

It's the only cache I've found so far that was placed by scouts, but was a good cache imo, and I'd definately have no issues looking for more scout caches in future.

[+palmetto]

The bulk of merit badge placed caches that I review are never published. No response to my notes asking about permits in state forests, permission in state parks, off-limits locations, or saturation issues.

 

The handful that do get published, I bookmark, as I know that physical cache maintenance will not be done, and listing maintenance (archival) will eventually be done my me.

 

One scout leader emailed me with some questions about cache placement, and then did a reasonable job with it - letting the boys place urban micros that they could reach from home. These were actually maintained for some time. I did ultimately archive most of them myself, but they had a decent run.

 

The scout guideline should include a 3 month time frame, placed, published, monitored REMOVED & the listing ARCHIVED. Or eliminate the option of cache placement.

 

I've seen adults do very nice Cache to Eagle series, and these are well received.

[mac367]

I am an adult leader with the local troop. I am also a Geocaching Merit Badge counselor. It really comes down to the counselors working with the scouts to either help them understand the maintenance of their potential hide or choose another option. As many have noted, these are teenage boys, their minds and interests bounce from one thing to the next. I have several boys in the troop that started working on the badge at summer camp....2 years ago. None of them have shown enough continuing interest to take it any farther and I am not pushing them specifically so we don't end up with these issues. If any of them or any other scouts start to show some real interest, then I will gladly work with them to within the guidelines to place and maintain a cache.

[+ngrrfan]

I have several boys in the troop that started working on the badge at summer camp....2 years ago. None of them have shown enough continuing interest to take it any farther and I am not pushing them specifically so we don't end up with these issues. If any of them or any other scouts start to show some real interest, then I will gladly work with them to within the guidelines to place and maintain a cache.

Maybe that is the solution. To get the badge you have to actively cache and maintain your cache for at least two years.

[+kunarion]

I have several boys in the troop that started working on the badge at summer camp....2 years ago. None of them have shown enough continuing interest to take it any farther and I am not pushing them specifically so we don't end up with these issues. If any of them or any other scouts start to show some real interest, then I will gladly work with them to within the guidelines to place and maintain a cache.

Maybe that is the solution. To get the badge you have to actively cache and maintain your cache for at least two years.

Could the Scout groups set up permanent caches specially designed to be interesting challenges? The maintenance of those caches could be part of the badge process, but the caches remain for the next groups, next year. I'm thinking the badge could be more about the find, less about every scout placing a new cache.

 

Scouts design and build cool little boardwalks, foot bridges, picnic tables, etc. Into those, they could design amazing hiding compartments for ammo cans. In a spot with little traffic, that requires a hike, maybe there wouldn't need to be all that much maintenance.

Edited September 15, 2013 by kunarion

[+dprovan]

The scout guideline should include a 3 month time frame, placed, published, monitored REMOVED & the listing ARCHIVED. Or eliminate the option of cache placement.

That's an excellent idea. I think most COs try not to think about the end life of their cache, so dealing with that as an explicit part of the merit badge requirement would be very useful.

[Clan Riffster]

It is a sad statement that the quality of Scout-placed Geocaches are at such a low level, but that is to be expected from an organization that now teaches its members that morals are defined by public opinion.

Morals have been defined by public opinion since the dawn of time. I just got done reading some religious text from a couple thousand years ago where morality was defined rather differently than it is today. These morals included things like not eating pork or rabbits, as doing so was bad, but eating the flesh of your kids is apparently okay, but only if you happen to disagree with some commandment their deity made. Leftovers are an abomination. Baby girls are twice as dirty as baby boys. Bats are apparently not flying mammals. The deity says they are birds. Who knew? If you like seafood, it sucks to be you, as clams, oysters, crabs, lobsters, and shrimp are abominations. Polyester is a sin. Owning slaves is hunky dorey, though if you force them to sleep with you, you must punish them afterward. If your kids curse at you, they must be killed. If a priest's daughter is unchaste, set her on fire. Handicapped people are not allowed in church. Etc. etc.

 

Just crazy stuff! 

 

But, those were the defined morals of those times. Thankfully, we no longer live in those times. Society has decided on a different set of morals, and even the Boy Scouts recognize that all kids are human beings and deserve to be treated with dignity, respect and tolerance.

 

To get back on topic; scout owned caches sucked long before the Boy Scouts of America supported basic human rights, so I'm not buying into the notion that the recent rule change you mention caused the decline in quality.

[Keystone]

All future posts need to be about "caches placed for merit badges." I should be able to open and read a discussion about that without seeing posts arguing about morality issues or ridiculing my dietary choices. Thanks.

[+giddeanx]

I have several boys in the troop that started working on the badge at summer camp....2 years ago. None of them have shown enough continuing interest to take it any farther and I am not pushing them specifically so we don't end up with these issues. If any of them or any other scouts start to show some real interest, then I will gladly work with them to within the guidelines to place and maintain a cache.

Maybe that is the solution. To get the badge you have to actively cache and maintain your cache for at least two years.

 

As a former boy scout:

Having a merit badge include one or two years of work seems ridiculous compared to requirements for other badges, especially since it is not a required badge. Most non-required badges can be completed in a single week and usually are during Summer Camps.

[+giddeanx]

The scout guideline should include a 3 month time frame, placed, published, monitored REMOVED & the listing ARCHIVED. Or eliminate the option of cache placement.

That's an excellent idea. I think most COs try not to think about the end life of their cache, so dealing with that as an explicit part of the merit badge requirement would be very useful.

Before doing so, share with your counselor a six-month maintenance plan for the geocache where you are personally responsible for the first three months.

 

It looks like they don't intend for these caches to last for more than 6 months anyway. Also who is responsible for the next three months of the plan?

[+ScoutDadNC]

If the caches are not being maintained, then the Merit Badge Counselor is not doing their job.

 

The requirement states that they must have a 6 month maintenance plan. I think that the best way for this to work is to set it up near the meeting place.

 

I am the district counselor for district. I also have about half the troop working on the badge. Our cache for the troop is behind the scout hut. Easy find. It was originally an ammo can. Got stolen. Now it is a sealed canister. I tell the boys that are working on it to check it during the meetings. We look at the logs, check trackables and add swag as needed. Don't fault the scouts for poor mb counselors. The cache was created under my name so it would not be lost b by a one and done hider.

 

If you believe that the quality of the meritbadge program is poor in your area, sign up to teach it. It will not cost you anything, and all you will have to do is take a youth protection class online (about 20-30 minutes)

 

This is my suggestion. I ensure that the meritbadges that I sign off on are complete according to the requirements. There are some that do not do it that way.

[+ArtieD]

Don't fault the scouts for poor mb counselors.

 

While I can agree that partial responsibility rests with the counselors, the majority rests with the scout going for the badge. They know the rules going into it. If they don't, then they should even be attempting the badge anyway.

 

If you believe that the quality of the meritbadge program is poor in your area, sign up to teach it. It will not cost you anything, and all you will have to do is take a youth protection class online (about 20-30 minutes)

 

That is not my responsibility, nor should it be the responsibility of other local cachers. This is purely a scouting thing and if the scouts, counselors, etc., can't be counted on to follow the merit badge rules and understand what's involved, they should not be offering the badge at all. Stick to building bridges and birdhouses.

[mac367]

Let me clarify what I meant by 2 years ago. The boys were interested in the badge 2 years ago at summer camp so they started working on some of the other requirements for the badge. Since that time none of them have taken the initiative to pursue the badge any further. I have talked with them, but based on their response I am not pushing them to place hides that might not get maintained. Again, they are teenagers whose interests change by the minute.

[RagnoJr]

I have helped my daughters Junior Girl Scout troop place a cache as part of earning a badge. I think they key is to have an adult or experienced Geocacher place it for them and be the one responsible for maintaining it.

[+Don_J]

If the caches are not being maintained, then the Merit Badge Counselor is not doing their job.

 

The requirement states that they must have a 6 month maintenance plan. I think that the best way for this to work is to set it up near the meeting place.

 

I am the district counselor for district. I also have about half the troop working on the badge. Our cache for the troop is behind the scout hut. Easy find. It was originally an ammo can. Got stolen. Now it is a sealed canister. I tell the boys that are working on it to check it during the meetings. We look at the logs, check trackables and add swag as needed. Don't fault the scouts for poor mb counselors. The cache was created under my name so it would not be lost b by a one and done hider.

 

If you believe that the quality of the meritbadge program is poor in your area, sign up to teach it. It will not cost you anything, and all you will have to do is take a youth protection class online (about 20-30 minutes)

 

This is my suggestion. I ensure that the meritbadges that I sign off on are complete according to the requirements. There are some that do not do it that way.

 

But you have an interest in geocaching. If the scouts don't really have an interest and neither does the counselor, it just becomes a quick exercise to get the badge. No different than someone who discovers the smartphone app, caches for two days, hides a cache and then totally forgets about it when they discover the next smartphone app.

[+ScoutDadNC]

That is not my responsibility, nor should it be the responsibility of other local cachers. This is purely a scouting thing and if the scouts, counselors, etc., can't be counted on to follow the merit badge rules and understand what's involved, they should not be offering the badge at all. Stick to building bridges and birdhouses.

 

Before you make quotes like this, understand that the purpose of meritbadge counselor is to get the youth out and working with adults not directly associated with the troop or even BSA in general. It is meant to get the youth to try something new.

 

And you comment about building birdhouses and bridges is rather insulting. There is so much more to scouting. The skills and leadership experience goes so far beyond building arts and crafts. Please learn about the program, and you may actually find that you like teaching the meritbadge.

[niftylite]

*happily trundles along at own pace*

[Jayme H]

Hey gang -

 

Just a friendly reminder to keep things civil. These forums need to be held as a place where everybody can feel safe to express an opinion. Let's dial it back a bit, please.

 

Thanks!

[+ScoutDadNC]

Hey gang -

 

Just a friendly reminder to keep things civil. These forums need to be held as a place where everybody can feel safe to express an opinion. Let's dial it back a bit, please.

 

Thanks!

 

My apologies. I just find that too many people like to down grade the Scouting program. A lot of times too many people like to complain without offering a solution.

 

My suggestion for becoming a Meritbadge counselor is not hard to do and can actually be a little fun.