Reverse Cache Machine

[+Glenn]

What are your thoughts about having an event where the organizers collect geocaches around a specific location. Take them to the event location. Make the logs available for signing by the attendees. Then replace the caches once the event is over. It's a cache machine where the caches come to you. A reverse cache machine.

 

A debate in another topic get me thinking about this possibility when I reviewed the current finding guidelines. The only requirement appears to be signing the log.

[+Keelmann And Cici]

Personally, I wouldn't sign, and I'd think a great deal less of the event for doing it, seems to me to run counter to the idea of geocaching. And if I were a cache owner of one of the caches, all logs would be deleted, and I'd let Groundspeak rule on any protest.

[+Great Scott!]

Worst idea ever.

 

Don't bother to do that 5/5 cache. Just wait until the next event and the event planner will "borrow" the cache and bring it to you to sign the log.

 

What fun would that be?

[+lamoracke]

I would say bad idea as well, even if the COs agreed. My opinion.

[+Planet]

Bad form, poor taste, lacking in effort, low class, lazy, cheating, bad karma, unfair, silly, dumb idea, useless, pitiful.

 

Want me to tell you how I really feel about it? Is someone actually doing this???

[+Mudfrog]

Not a good idea at all. In the first place, i find it hard to believe that all of the local cache owners would go for it. Secondly, what if a non-attendee goes for the cache thinking it's in it's original hiding spot? Thirdly, to me, these would be considered temporary caches that go against the general gc.com guidelines.

[knowschad]

Along with what others have said, I would think that they would be considered "pocket caches", a concept that has already been banned by Groundspeak (thank goodness!)

[+The A-Team]

For physical caches all logging requirements beyond finding the cache and signing the log are considered additional logging requirements (ALRs) and must be optional.

Being given the cache at an event ≠ Finding the cache

 

This is the worst idea I've seen on the forums since the guy that was trying to start up a metal detector geocaching-style game. I sincerely hope you're just joking, but it's hard to tell from your post if you are or not.

[+The VanDucks]

Ooooo - I would be furious if someone took one of our caches to this type of event! It would violate quite a few of the geocaching rules and upset every geocacher in the local community!

Edited June 28, 2012 by The VanDucks

[+uxorious]

Bad form, poor taste, lacking in effort, low class, lazy, cheating, bad karma, unfair, silly, dumb idea, useless, pitiful.

 

Want me to tell you how I really feel about it? Is someone actually doing this???

 

+1 Could not have said it better myself.

[+JJnTJ]

Please don't.

Edited June 28, 2012 by JJnTJ

[Pup Patrol]

What are your thoughts about having an event where the organizers collect geocaches around a specific location. Take them to the event location. Make the logs available for signing by the attendees. Then replace the caches once the event is over. It's a cache machine where the caches come to you. A reverse cache machine.

 

A debate in another topic get me thinking about this possibility when I reviewed the current finding guidelines. The only requirement appears to be signing the log.

 

Sounds like cache theft to me.

 

Or an incredibly ill-educated cacher who doesn't understand the concept of "finding" caches.

 

Geocaching 101

http://www.geocaching.com/guide/default.aspx

 

How do I find the cache and what should I do once I've found it?

 

There are many things to know about searching for a cache. For instance, did you know that there is a slight "error" to every GPS device due to technological limitations? Your device can get you close to the cache, but there are a number of things to consider as you get closer to the cache location. Watch this video to follow along as we find a geocache or read tips here.

 

When you find the cache, sign the logbook and return it to the cache. You can take an item from the cache if you like - just make sure to leave something of equal or greater value in its place. When you are finished, put the cache back exactly as you found it, even if you think you see a better spot for it. Finally, visit the cache page to log your find and share your experience with others.

 

Again, there's gotta be a background story to this query. It's documented as bad behaviour, not allowed, pathetic...so what's the reason for bringing it to the forums? When does the other shoe drop?

 

 

B.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Pup Patrol

[jholly]

What are your thoughts about having an event where the organizers collect geocaches around a specific location. Take them to the event location. Make the logs available for signing by the attendees. Then replace the caches once the event is over. It's a cache machine where the caches come to you. A reverse cache machine.

 

A debate in another topic get me thinking about this possibility when I reviewed the current finding guidelines. The only requirement appears to be signing the log.

 

Sounds like cache theft to me.

 

Or an incredibly ill-educated cacher who doesn't understand the concept of "finding" caches.

 

Geocaching 101

http://www.geocaching.com/guide/default.aspx

 

How do I find the cache and what should I do once I've found it?

 

There are many things to know about searching for a cache. For instance, did you know that there is a slight "error" to every GPS device due to technological limitations? Your device can get you close to the cache, but there are a number of things to consider as you get closer to the cache location. Watch this video to follow along as we find a geocache or read tips here.

 

When you find the cache, sign the logbook and return it to the cache. You can take an item from the cache if you like - just make sure to leave something of equal or greater value in its place. When you are finished, put the cache back exactly as you found it, even if you think you see a better spot for it. Finally, visit the cache page to log your find and share your experience with others.

 

Again, there's gotta be a background story to this query. It's documented as bad behaviour, not allowed, pathetic...so what's the reason for bringing it to the forums? When does the other shoe drop?

 

 

B.

[speculation]

There is a cache machine scheduled for this weekend. I'm guessing Glenn doesn't like them.

[/speculation]

[+niraD]

Without the consent of the owners of the caches in question, it is cache vandalism.

 

With the consent of the owners of the caches in question, it merely violates the Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines (e.g., cache permanence, cache saturation).

[+lamoracke]

 

[speculation]

There is a cache machine scheduled for this weekend. I'm guessing Glenn doesn't like them.

[/speculation]

 

well, could make the cache machine very interesting. I was a bit disappointed in the last cache machine I did where there was a cache missing 2-3 days before the cache machine that had the entire GZ mowed and cut. We looked and marked our DNFs. That stuff happens, so no big deal. Cache was gone, nor was it replaced that day, yet about 10 or so (double checked my number, the current # is 5) people still logged it as a find because either they just logged everything or whatever mix up. So, I do find that carelessness of what you log increases at these things, but one can be careless on any caching day.

 

I could do the cache machine a week before the machine or after, its still just the same caches without a dinner event or a chap trying to find a nice route to maximize caches (we never follow the route personally though).

 

edited to check the true number of a fact I quoted.

Edited June 28, 2012 by lamoracke

[+Isonzo Karst]

It's been done. It was common briefly, mostly in the southeast US, and lead to the great pocket cache massacre of 2006.

 

Caches are reviewed published on Geocaching.com with the understanding that they are going to be hunted at the coordinates provided

by the cache owner.

 

They're not published to move to events. With the possible exception of a handful of remaining traveling caches - which really weren't/aren't meant to be found at events either, but do sometimes end up there.

[+Gustav129]

Basically takes "legal" caches and turns them into temp "pocket" caches......

 

Bad idea.

 

Especially for people who may travel to an area and don't want to go to a Cache Machine and cache on their own. Then they get a bunch of DNF's when all the caches are moved.

[knowschad]

So, Glenn... what do you think now?

[+The_Incredibles_]

Well since you asked...I think it's a disgusting idea. If this happened to one of my caches without my consent I would delete the logs.

[knowschad]

Come to think of it, it may violate the guideline for events:

 

An event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together geocachers for an organized geocache search.

[jholly]

Come to think of it, it may violate the guideline for events:

 

An event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together geocachers for an organized geocache search.

Yeah, I probably would go with that one. Much better case than the others.

[knowschad]

Come to think of it, it may violate the guideline for events:

 

An event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together geocachers for an organized geocache search.

Yeah, I probably would go with that one. Much better case than the others.

 

I'm not so sure about the "better" part. Notice that it uses the word "search" in conjunction with "geocache". Wouldn't be much of a search going on.

[Mr.Yuck]

It's been done. It was common briefly, mostly in the southeast US, and lead to the great pocket cache massacre of 2006.

 

Caches are reviewed published on Geocaching.com with the understanding that they are going to be hunted at the coordinates provided

by the cache owner.

 

They're not published to move to events. With the possible exception of a handful of remaining traveling caches - which really weren't/aren't meant to be found at events either, but do sometimes end up there.

 

I knew someone would come along with the correct answer!! I think the poo really hit the fan when people did it at GeoWoodstock in Texas. Was that 2006?

 

Surprised no one has asked "what the heck is a cache machine"? Regional term used in the Pacific NW. Basically, a big group caching outing.

[+6NoisyHikers]

I was wondering what cache machine meant but I thought I'd wait until someone explained it...

 

"Cache Machine" actually brings to mind those teams that do the highway power trails: driver, navigator, film can grabber, logger... Sounds like a machine to me!

[jholly]

I was wondering what cache machine meant but I thought I'd wait until someone explained it...

 

"Cache Machine" actually brings to mind those teams that do the highway power trails: driver, navigator, film can grabber, logger... Sounds like a machine to me!

Cache Machine The highway power trail activities don't fit well, they are normal caches with a route to get to them.

Edited June 28, 2012 by jholly

[+pppingme]

If I owned the cache, I'd delete all the logs that came from the event.

[jholly]

If I owned the cache, I'd delete all the logs that came from the event.

You don't get any logs from the event, the event CO gets those logs. Any logs that occur on the day the event occurs might or might not be from folks that attended the event dinner, you really have no way of knowing. And if you do delete the logs your probably going to get a nastygram from the frog for unwarranted log deletion. You can archive your cache or mark it unavailable and pull it for the day. Deleting logs for the reason you state is a bad idea.

 

But since your outside the area normally visited by the Northwest cache machines you can go back to sleep.

Edited June 28, 2012 by jholly

[+SwineFlew]

What about this cache? I found it on my lap at a event.

[Luckless]

What about this cache? I found it on my lap at a event.

 

SwineFlew, apparently this cache is a grandfathered cache that was published before moving caches were prohibited. Grandfathered caches are allowed because they were created before they were prohibited. Congratulations on finding this old cache.

[+niraD]

I wouldn't log a find for a grandfathered traveling cache unless I found it "in the wild". Logging one because someone brought it to an event before re-hiding it seems like logging a friend's cache because you saw the prepared container on his kitchen table before he actually hid it.

 

Unless the traveling cache's goal was to be hidden at events so attendees can find it there, of course. But I haven't seen any traveling caches like that.

 

But YMMV...

[+SwineFlew]

I wouldn't log a find for a grandfathered traveling cache unless I found it "in the wild". Logging one because someone brought it to an event before re-hiding it seems like logging a friend's cache because you saw the prepared container on his kitchen table before he actually hid it.

 

Unless the traveling cache's goal was to be hidden at events so attendees can find it there, of course. But I haven't seen any traveling caches like that.

 

But YMMV...

I am seeing more and more traveling caches showing up at large events. I found two so far, yes, it does feel like cheating since the goal of caches is to be hidden in the wild and found in the wild, not to be found at an event.

[Pup Patrol]

What about this cache? I found it on my lap at a event.

 

As far as I understand "travelling caches", they aren't supposed to be handed around at events, either. What would be the point?

 

And travelling caches have nothing to do with the topic of this thread, any way.

 

 

B.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Pup Patrol

[+cwgrizz]

I don't like the idea, but then fwiw, I don't like carrying/switching film canisters on power trails either. Seems "close" to the same thing to me.

[Mr.Yuck]

What about this cache? I found it on my lap at a event.

 

As far as I understand "travelling caches", they aren't supposed to be handed around at events, either. What would be the point?

 

And travelling caches have nothing to do with the topic of this thread, any way.

 

 

B.

 

I do not believe that was ever the intent. There is a grandfathered moving cache in my area (posted coords about 60 miles from me), placed in 2002, that has never, ever been used as anything but a "pocket cache" passed around at events. It even showed up at an event I hosted, although that event was listed only on an alternative Geocaching website, and not this one. I'll bet there are several grandfathered moving caches still around being used in this manner. It's not like anyone is going to call the Geocaching Police, and it's not like The Frog cares.

 

The reviewing process was much less strict in those days. You could get away with stuff. For example, from another current thread, you could get away with virtuals designed to be armchair logged. And moving caches designed to be passed around at events.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, off-topic, sorry.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Mr.Yuck

[+6NoisyHikers]

Come to think of it, it may violate the guideline for events:

 

An event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together geocachers for an organized geocache search.

 

But they have been test driving this type of event in Ontario - events designed to bring cachers together to go group caching. (Because TPTB know we do that before/during/after events anyway.) The word is that the experiment was a success and Group Hunting Events will soon be coming to a location near you!

 

Organized Group Hunts

[+6NoisyHikers]

I was wondering what cache machine meant but I thought I'd wait until someone explained it...

 

"Cache Machine" actually brings to mind those teams that do the highway power trails: driver, navigator, film can grabber, logger... Sounds like a machine to me!

Cache Machine The highway power trail activities don't fit well, they are normal caches with a route to get to them.

 

I checked out the link and I have to say that I really like this idea. It sounds like a well-organized and respectful group event. I would take part in something like this (have to work this weekend though!) I don't generally like caching in groups so I like that we can start where we want and that we will bump into people along the way.

 

BUT - back on topic - this is not what the OP was describing. I believe his question had to do with creating an event where cachers lounge on picnic blankets and have caches delivered to them like so many pizzas on Grey Cup weekend.

[knowschad]

Come to think of it, it may violate the guideline for events:

 

An event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together geocachers for an organized geocache search.

 

But they have been test driving this type of event in Ontario - events designed to bring cachers together to go group caching. (Because TPTB know we do that before/during/after events anyway.) The word is that the experiment was a success and Group Hunting Events will soon be coming to a location near you!

 

Organized Group Hunts

Ahhh... you mean, "Cache Machines"?

[+6NoisyHikers]

 

But they have been test driving this type of event in Ontario - events designed to bring cachers together to go group caching. (Because TPTB know we do that before/during/after events anyway.) The word is that the experiment was a success and Group Hunting Events will soon be coming to a location near you!

 

Organized Group Hunts

Ahhh... you mean, "Cache Machines"?

 

Well, I think it is a little different because it sounds like a "cache machine" is an event where everyone is running around town in small groups, then gets together for dinner to swap stories, and a "group hunt" seems to be 50 cachers tromping down the same trail together at the same time headed for the same cache. The former I would do, the latter I wouldn't. (But no judgement on those who would!)

[+The A-Team]

Come to think of it, it may violate the guideline for events:

 

An event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together geocachers for an organized geocache search.

That only applies if they list their event on this site. If they set it up through Facebook, Twitter, or a local caching group, they can do whatever they want. The owners of the affected caches could still use the "delete bogus logs" guideline, though.

[+The A-Team]

Well, I think it is a little different because it sounds like a "cache machine" is an event where everyone is running around town in small groups, then gets together for dinner to swap stories, and a "group hunt" seems to be 50 cachers tromping down the same trail together at the same time headed for the same cache. The former I would do, the latter I wouldn't. (But no judgement on those who would!)

Interesting. I'd actually prefer the exact opposite, though not in such a large group. I'd thoroughly enjoy getting a dozen or so cachers together to go hiking through the nearby hills to find a bunch of caches (and may actually do that later this summer).

[+Don_J]

What are your thoughts about having an event where the organizers collect geocaches around a specific location. Take them to the event location. Make the logs available for signing by the attendees. Then replace the caches once the event is over. It's a cache machine where the caches come to you. A reverse cache machine.

 

A debate in another topic get me thinking about this possibility when I reviewed the current finding guidelines. The only requirement appears to be signing the log.

 

Sounds like cache theft to me.

 

Or an incredibly ill-educated cacher who doesn't understand the concept of "finding" caches.

 

Geocaching 101

http://www.geocaching.com/guide/default.aspx

 

How do I find the cache and what should I do once I've found it?

 

There are many things to know about searching for a cache. For instance, did you know that there is a slight "error" to every GPS device due to technological limitations? Your device can get you close to the cache, but there are a number of things to consider as you get closer to the cache location. Watch this video to follow along as we find a geocache or read tips here.

 

When you find the cache, sign the logbook and return it to the cache. You can take an item from the cache if you like - just make sure to leave something of equal or greater value in its place. When you are finished, put the cache back exactly as you found it, even if you think you see a better spot for it. Finally, visit the cache page to log your find and share your experience with others.

 

Again, there's gotta be a background story to this query. It's documented as bad behaviour, not allowed, pathetic...so what's the reason for bringing it to the forums? When does the other shoe drop?

 

 

B.

 

I'd have to guess that the idea was born out of this thread. Particularly post #27

[+The A-Team]

Just to muddy the waters, I just thought of another guideline that would come into play, under 2.1. Listing Guidelines that Apply to All Geocaches: Technical Requirements:

1. Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates. You must visit the cache location and obtain the coordinates with a GPS device. GPS usage is an integral and essential element of both hiding and seeking caches and must be demonstrated for all cache submissions. Projecting waypoints from a specific location already defined by set of coordinates is permissible. For geocaches that include additional waypoints see the guidelines specific to those cache types.

If you're being presented with the cache nowhere near GZ, then GPS usage definitely wasn't an integral element of finding it. I think this guideline is one of the biggest nails in the pocket-cache coffin.

[+6NoisyHikers]

1. Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates. You must visit the cache location and obtain the coordinates with a GPS device. GPS usage is an integral and essential element of both hiding and seeking caches and must be demonstrated for all cache submissions. Projecting waypoints from a specific location already defined by set of coordinates is permissible. For geocaches that include additional waypoints see the guidelines specific to those cache types.

 

This also discounts all "accidental" finds by muggles-who-become-cachers. Or people who just use maps and compasses. Or people whose GPS batteries ran out halfway there. Or people who dropped their GPS in the river and it washed away...

[AZcachemeister]

If I knew in advance what was going to happen, I wouldn't attend.

If I saw this happening after I was already there, I would leave immediately.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Without the consent of the owners of the caches in question, it is cache vandalism.

 

With the consent of the owners of the caches in question, it merely violates the Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines (e.g., cache permanence, cache saturation).

 

I'm not supporting this in any way, but if the cache owner disabled one or more of their caches, grabbed the containers and took them to an event for the logs to be signed, then replaced and re-enabled them, it wouldn't violated any guidelines. It's be a pretty cheesy thing to do, and I wouldn't signed any of the logs myself, but I'm not sure what GS or a reviewer could do about it.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

If I knew in advance what was going to happen, I wouldn't attend.

If I saw this happening after I was already there, I would leave immediately.

 

I'd probably do the same, and it would leave a very bad taste in my mouth about attending any future events and the local geocaching community as well. I might even give up local caching as well on only cache when I'm traveling.

 

What strikes me about the idea of bringing caches to an event to be logged is that the only motivation that I can think of for doing it would be to provide an incentive for people to attend the event. IMHO, that misses the whole point about geo events, as I think events should be about getting a bunch of geocachers together to meet and socialize, not to increase one's find count. I'd be perfectly happy if Attended logs no longer added to our find count.

[+ras_oscar]

The process is fairly simple: Arrive at GZ, Find the cache, sign the log, replace the log. Any other method is not caching. A queiry to the OP: you have described this as a "reverse cache machine" what is a cache machine? Is that another term for a group caching trip?

[+Glenn]

Along with what others have said, I would think that they would be considered "pocket caches", a concept that has already been banned by Groundspeak (thank goodness!)

I know that Groundspeak has on occasion locked logging a few caches that they deemed as "pocket caches". But I can't find any official reference to pocket caches or any guideline that would prevent their existence. I'm not saying that the guideline isn't there. I just can't find it if it is.

 

For physical caches all logging requirements beyond finding the cache and signing the log are considered additional logging requirements (ALRs) and must be optional.

Being given the cache at an event ≠ Finding the cache

 

This is the worst idea I've seen on the forums since the guy that was trying to start up a metal detector geocaching-style game. I sincerely hope you're just joking, but it's hard to tell from your post if you are or not.

When I said the event I didn't mean an official event cache. Maybe get together would be a better word since it isn't the same a cache type. A reverse cache machine get together.

 

Please don't.

I don't have any plans on hosting a reverse cache machine any time soon. The idea came to me when discussing another topic. I searched the guidelines to see if it violated any of them. I really couldn't find anything. So I was wondering what other people think. Except for slight sidebar on event caches I think the conversation is going well.

 

When you are finished, put the cache back exactly as you found it, even if you think you see a better spot for it.

That's not exactly a guideline but it is good gouge. I saw this but realized that if someone was collecting up caches for a reverse cache machine (RCM) that finished would mean at the conclusion of the RCM.

 

[speculation]

There is a cache machine scheduled for this weekend. I'm guessing Glenn doesn't like them.

[/speculation]

Cache machines are a different topic. This isn't a topic started passive aggressively against cache machines. I've had my concerns about cache machines years ago. Cache machines have matured greatly since then and I am glad to have been one who helped guide them in the right direction.

 

Without the consent of the owners of the caches in question, it is cache vandalism.

 

With the consent of the owners of the caches in question, it merely violates the Geocache Listing Requirements / Guidelines (e.g., cache permanence, cache saturation).

Ah, those are LISTING guidelines. You have to follow those guidelines to get the cache listed. I'm talking about finding cache or more specifically carrying a cache to different location for logging purposes. A practice that is done all the time. I've found caches brought them trail side for others in my group to trade swag and sign the log. The only difference is possibly the time and distance involved. Neither violate a guideline.

 

So, Glenn... what do you think now?

I think this is good conversation and I am learning a lot. I see a lot of bad form and bad idea posts. But a lot of people think that power tails are bad form and a bad idea. That doesn't mean that they violate any guidelines.

[+Glenn]

Just to muddy the waters, I just thought of another guideline that would come into play, under 2.1. Listing Guidelines that Apply to All Geocaches: Technical Requirements:

1. Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates. You must visit the cache location and obtain the coordinates with a GPS device. GPS usage is an integral and essential element of both hiding and seeking caches and must be demonstrated for all cache submissions. Projecting waypoints from a specific location already defined by set of coordinates is permissible. For geocaches that include additional waypoints see the guidelines specific to those cache types.

If you're being presented with the cache nowhere near GZ, then GPS usage definitely wasn't an integral element of finding it. I think this guideline is one of the biggest nails in the pocket-cache coffin.

This also discounts all "accidental" finds by muggles-who-become-cachers. Or people who just use maps and compasses. Or people whose GPS batteries ran out halfway there. Or people who dropped their GPS in the river and it washed away...

 

Great find The A-Team but 6NoisyHikers has the same concerns that I do. Following that guideline to the letter would mean that a lot of currently common finding practices would be against the guidelines.

 

A-Team I assume that guideline quote came from http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.printer.friendly&id=11#c59. The guidelines there are broken down in to 3 parts; Placement, Listing, and Logging. That quote is from the Listing section of the guidelines. Meaning that a cache won't be listed if finding by a GPS isn't intended as an integral part of the finding process. Any and all reference to a GPS being required is left out of the Logging section. In fact the Logging section is very short and simple. It is summed up by the first sentence. "Physical caches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed." There are apparently no other requirements other than simply signing the physical log. I can't find where it says that the cache can't be moved from GZ and logged elsewhere.

[+The A-Team]

There are apparently no other requirements other than simply signing the physical log.

You keep missing the part later in that section. I'll quote it again:

For physical caches all logging requirements beyond finding the cache and signing the log are considered additional logging requirements (ALRs) and must be optional.

Notice it says "finding the cache". That's another requirement. I maintain that someone stealing* a cache and handing it to you nowhere near GZ does not constitute you finding the cache. Retrieving it from a spot and handing it to your caching buddies a few feet away from GZ is totally different than relocating it completely away from the GZ area and you know it.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to frequently forget the biggest, all-encompassing guideline there is: common sense. There shouldn't need to be guidelines covering every possible scenario. Some things are obvious enough that a guideline shouldn't need to be written. There's no guideline prohibiting me from dousing every cache I find in gasoline and lighting it on fire, so does that mean it's okay for me to do it?

 

I'd be very happy if this entire thread got completely deleted. I shudder to think what might happen if someone with little integrity stumbles upon this thread and runs with the idea.

 

*and it is, it isn't yours to do with as you please, it's the owner's cache