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Can I Count It?

Ozmomndad

By Ozmomndad
in General geocaching topics

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Jenischmeni

+Jenischmeni

Posted
Posted

There will be some who say "yes" and some who say "no".

 

If it was me, I wouldn't count it until I could return to sign the log. I have; however, claimed finds on logs that I couldn't sign. This would be because they were a solid frozen block of ice or a gooey mess. In those (very rare) instances, I will take a photo of the log and container and log the find. More often than not though, I'll place a new log and baggie in the container and then claim the find.

M 5

+M 5

Posted
Posted

Not only would I not count it, but it would never even cross my mind to consider counting it. I don't even understand why anyone would even want to count it.

knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted

I'm sure that my comment about trusting your gut was right-on, and that your gut is telling you to not log them. But one more thought occurred to me... Claiming a DNF on a cache because of muggles is a sacrifice most of us are willing to take to preserve a cache's integrity. It is an honorable thing.

GOF and Bacall

GOF and Bacall

Posted
Posted

Briansnat is correct. If it were my cache and you were to log it as a find I likely wouldn't notice or care. Unless you talked about it in your online log. I don't compare the signatures in the paper log with those online but I will delete a log that says something to the effect of "I didn't get the cache but I am claiming the find anyway.".

GOF and Bacall

GOF and Bacall

Posted
Posted

I wouldn't but in the end it is only between you, your conscience and the cache owner.

 

This is the only correct answer.

 

Sure, but keep in mind that others my point and laugh at events if someone makes a habit of logging caches they haven't signed. :)

d+n.s

+d+n.s

Posted
Posted

None of our opinions really matter. I wouldn't log it, but who cares?

If you are really worried about it e-mail the CO and ask. If you get no response do what you want.

bladesedge

+bladesedge

Posted
Posted

I found a cache once that I couldn't log cos there was no log book in it. i asked the CO if I could log it, included a pic of the cache for reference that I had found it, and never heard anything from the CO. I've returned again to that location, but the cache had completely gone missing. One day I'm up that way again I'll eventually get it logged.

Starkes

+Starkes

Posted
Posted

Well, if you didn't even open the container and see the logbook then you're just making the assumption that whatever you found was truly the cache. Granted in most cases it's usually a safe bet but I've read some stories about how some hides incorporate decoy caches (though I'm new to the game and haven't seen one like this yet).

 

So, I wouldn't log a cache as found in this sort of situation (and I see avoiding muggles as part of the challenge of the cache anyways)

tozainamboku

+tozainamboku

Posted
Posted

Nowhere is there a rule that says you have to sign the log. It is up to cache owner to decide if this is a good excuse for not signing the log. I know many cache owners who prefer that you don't compromise a cache to muggles and who would accept muggle activity as a good excuse. On the other hand, there are cache owners who intentionally place caches where muggles are as challenge to cache finder to figure out how to use stealth to retrieve and sign the log. You need to find out which kind of cache owner this is.

 

It might surprise some to know that I personally would not log a find if I had to leave because of muggles even if the cache owner said it was okay. If the smiley is that important, I'll wait till the muggles leave, come back later, or figure out how to be stealthy and sign the log.

Manville Possum

+Manville Possum

Posted
Posted

Last week a user that is new to our area logged one of my listings, the container is hid at the corner of a Upping Stone, which is also one of my waymarks. They explained that they had a photo of their visit, but with snow on the ground they did not want to leave tracks. That is fine with me, I really just want to show off the Upping Stone, and fact that they did not want to disturb the area shows that they have respect for other peoples property. I have however got an email from the CO of a PMO cache telling me that because I found a destroyed (by Wildlife) cache that contained no log, I could not claim the find.

Tobias & Petronella

+Tobias & Petronella

Posted
Posted

The way we play is simple...

 

If we couldn't sign it, then we didn't find it.

 

If the logbook is unsignable (i.e it turn to pulp or is gone) we add a slip of paper or new logbook if we have one, with our names on it to claim a find.

 

It's us vs. the muggles. If they see you and can figure out what you are doing then they win.

 

It's great to be the first to find a cache but it's terrible to be the last.

 

Treat each cache you find as if was your own.

Castle Mischief

+Castle Mischief

Posted
Posted

I wouldn't but in the end it is only between you, your conscience and the cache owner.

 

This is the only correct answer.

 

Sure, but keep in mind that others my point and laugh at events if someone makes a habit of logging caches they haven't signed. :)

 

Oh, you betcha. I'd point and whisper if I knew you did this and I saw you at an event.

knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted

I wouldn't but in the end it is only between you, your conscience and the cache owner.

 

This is the only correct answer.

 

Sure, but keep in mind that others my point and laugh at events if someone makes a habit of logging caches they haven't signed. :)

 

Oh, you betcha. I'd point and whisper if I knew you did this and I saw you at an event.

So-called "Minnesota Nice" doesn't allow us to point.
GOF and Bacall

GOF and Bacall

Posted
Posted

I wouldn't but in the end it is only between you, your conscience and the cache owner.

 

This is the only correct answer.

 

Sure, but keep in mind that others my point and laugh at events if someone makes a habit of logging caches they haven't signed. :)

 

Oh, you betcha. I'd point and whisper if I knew you did this and I saw you at an event.

So-called "Minnesota Nice" doesn't allow us to point.

 

Not even from behind you hand?

knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted

I wouldn't but in the end it is only between you, your conscience and the cache owner.

 

This is the only correct answer.

 

Sure, but keep in mind that others my point and laugh at events if someone makes a habit of logging caches they haven't signed. :)

 

Oh, you betcha. I'd point and whisper if I knew you did this and I saw you at an event.

So-called "Minnesota Nice" doesn't allow us to point.

 

Not even from behind you hand?

Not officially approved, but it does happen. Nods are certainly acceptable, though.
bittsen

+bittsen

Posted
Posted

Question: Can I count a cache if I found it, but was unable to sign the log due to muggle activity?

You can count it even if you never found it.

 

It would be scummy to do though.

 

 

The guidelines say you have to sign the log to claim the smiley though.

bittsen

+bittsen

Posted
Posted

It's bittsen. bittsen's not really an ubergenius.

No, I'm not. But there isn't a descriptor for someone smarter than an Uber Genius so I had to rate it down a little.

Imagin0s

Imagin0s

Posted
Posted

Just to add to this discussion, I was in NJ recently on a little business. I came on a cache on a billboard where I had to climb up a little to get it. I walked circles around the GZ and could see the cache. I have a torn ACL and in climbing up to make the grab, slipped and about passed out with pain. I didn't make another attempt to get up and grab it. I logged the attempt to do so at least and posted that I did not sign the log. I claimed a find on this one knowing it is very unlikely that I will be back this way once I am healed up. I'll leave it up to the CO to allow/deny my call. I will take a look at the terrain difficulty they set it as - it may be high since it isn't handicap accessable and involved a little climb.

DanOCan

+DanOCan

Posted
Posted

As long as you *could* have signed the log I'd claim it. If it were a situation where the cache was a long way up a light post and you couldn't climb the pole to grab it then I'd say "no", but if you were close enough to actually confirm it was the cache then it really doesn't matter. Take the smiley.

Harry Dolphin

+Harry Dolphin

Posted
Posted

Just to add to this discussion, I was in NJ recently on a little business. I came on a cache on a billboard where I had to climb up a little to get it. I walked circles around the GZ and could see the cache. I have a torn ACL and in climbing up to make the grab, slipped and about passed out with pain. I didn't make another attempt to get up and grab it. I logged the attempt to do so at least and posted that I did not sign the log. I claimed a find on this one knowing it is very unlikely that I will be back this way once I am healed up. I'll leave it up to the CO to allow/deny my call. I will take a look at the terrain difficulty they set it as - it may be high since it isn't handicap accessable and involved a little climb.

 

This is certainly very elitist, and very presumptuous. Make the CO the bad guy, when you did not sign the log? I log those as DNF. And there have been several. Climb up the grain silo? No thanks. I can see the cache, but I cannot get to it to open it and sign the log. DNF. And it doesn't make any diffrence where it is. A DNF is a DNF whether it's five miles from home, or five hundred. Still a DNF.

GOF and Bacall

GOF and Bacall

Posted
Posted

Just to add to this discussion, I was in NJ recently on a little business. I came on a cache on a billboard where I had to climb up a little to get it. I walked circles around the GZ and could see the cache. I have a torn ACL and in climbing up to make the grab, slipped and about passed out with pain. I didn't make another attempt to get up and grab it. I logged the attempt to do so at least and posted that I did not sign the log. I claimed a find on this one knowing it is very unlikely that I will be back this way once I am healed up. I'll leave it up to the CO to allow/deny my call. I will take a look at the terrain difficulty they set it as - it may be high since it isn't handicap accessable and involved a little climb.

 

I'd still point and laugh at events. Not everyone can get every cache. Such is life. Learn to enjoy the journey and stop worrying about the find count.

knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted
As long as you *could* have signed the log I'd claim it. If it were a situation where the cache was a long way up a light post and you couldn't climb the pole to grab it then I'd say "no", but if you were close enough to actually confirm it was the cache then it really doesn't matter. Take the smiley.
Awesome!! There are a whole bunch of caches in Nevada that I "could have signed" if only I were in Nevada. Boy, is this ever gonna get my numbers up!!
WRASTRO

+WRASTRO

Posted
Posted

Just to add to this discussion, I was in NJ recently on a little business. I came on a cache on a billboard where I had to climb up a little to get it. I walked circles around the GZ and could see the cache. I have a torn ACL and in climbing up to make the grab, slipped and about passed out with pain. I didn't make another attempt to get up and grab it. I logged the attempt to do so at least and posted that I did not sign the log. I claimed a find on this one knowing it is very unlikely that I will be back this way once I am healed up. I'll leave it up to the CO to allow/deny my call. I will take a look at the terrain difficulty they set it as - it may be high since it isn't handicap accessable and involved a little climb.

For me this would have been a DNF or a note. If I can't get to the container I don't log a find.

 

To the OP: I have walked away from numerous caches where there were too many muggles about to allow safe retrieval and replacement of the cache container. Note or log but never a found it for me in this situation.

M 5

+M 5

Posted
Posted

Just to add to this discussion, I was in NJ recently on a little business. I came on a cache on a billboard where I had to climb up a little to get it. I walked circles around the GZ and could see the cache. I have a torn ACL and in climbing up to make the grab, slipped and about passed out with pain. I didn't make another attempt to get up and grab it. I logged the attempt to do so at least and posted that I did not sign the log. I claimed a find on this one knowing it is very unlikely that I will be back this way once I am healed up. I'll leave it up to the CO to allow/deny my call. I will take a look at the terrain difficulty they set it as - it may be high since it isn't handicap accessable and involved a little climb.

 

You didn't even touch it. Lack of integrity in my book, but that's between you and your caching community.

Imagin0s

Imagin0s

Posted
Posted

Yeah, I will just scratch that one. Been over a week now and I am still limping from slipping on that attempt. When I got back my gf chewed my a** for even attempting to do things I shouldn't have.

nanncyan

+nanncyan

Posted
Posted

Nowhere is there a rule that says you have to sign the log. It is up to cache owner to decide if this is a good excuse for not signing the log. I know many cache owners who prefer that you don't compromise a cache to muggles and who would accept muggle activity as a good excuse. On the other hand, there are cache owners who intentionally place caches where muggles are as challenge to cache finder to figure out how to use stealth to retrieve and sign the log. You need to find out which kind of cache owner this is.

 

It might surprise some to know that I personally would not log a find if I had to leave because of muggles even if the cache owner said it was okay. If the smiley is that important, I'll wait till the muggles leave, come back later, or figure out how to be stealthy and sign the log.

 

I think it clearly states in the rules you must sign the log. Here is what it says under Additional logging requirements.

 

"As of April 4, 2009, Additional Logging Requirements can no longer be grounds for deleting a cache find. Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed."

 

So according to Groundspeak, yes you must sign the log. As others have said, let your conscience be your guide.

knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted

Nowhere is there a rule that says you have to sign the log. It is up to cache owner to decide if this is a good excuse for not signing the log. I know many cache owners who prefer that you don't compromise a cache to muggles and who would accept muggle activity as a good excuse. On the other hand, there are cache owners who intentionally place caches where muggles are as challenge to cache finder to figure out how to use stealth to retrieve and sign the log. You need to find out which kind of cache owner this is.

 

It might surprise some to know that I personally would not log a find if I had to leave because of muggles even if the cache owner said it was okay. If the smiley is that important, I'll wait till the muggles leave, come back later, or figure out how to be stealthy and sign the log.

 

I think it clearly states in the rules you must sign the log. Here is what it says under Additional logging requirements.

 

"As of April 4, 2009, Additional Logging Requirements can no longer be grounds for deleting a cache find. Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed."

 

So according to Groundspeak, yes you must sign the log. As others have said, let your conscience be your guide.

 

OK, I don't break out the popcorn very often, but I have been around long enough to know what's playing next:

:)

bittsen

+bittsen

Posted
Posted
OK, I don't break out the popcorn very often, but I have been around long enough to know what's playing next:

:)

Let me do it... Let ME!!

 

The guidelines say you have to allow a smiley if the cacher signs the log. It does NOT say you HAVE to sign the log to collect a smiley. There is cache owner discretion on logging a find but there is NOT discretion if the log IS signed.

John in Valley Forge

+John in Valley Forge

Posted
Posted
OK, I don't break out the popcorn very often, but I have been around long enough to know what's playing next:

:)

Let me do it... Let ME!!

 

The guidelines say you have to allow a smiley if the cacher signs the log. It does NOT say you HAVE to sign the log to collect a smiley. There is cache owner discretion on logging a find but there is NOT discretion if the log IS signed.

 

I have no idea how you can get to your position from the sentence "Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed."

 

Is it that the signature is considered by some to be an Additional Logging Requirement?

bittsen

+bittsen

Posted
Posted

Let me do it... Let ME!!

 

The guidelines say you have to allow a smiley if the cacher signs the log. It does NOT say you HAVE to sign the log to collect a smiley. There is cache owner discretion on logging a find but there is NOT discretion if the log IS signed.

 

I have no idea how you can get to your position from the sentence "Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed."

 

Is it that the signature is considered by some to be an Additional Logging Requirement?

 

Ahem...

 

This is why people use the popcorn icon.

 

It's all in the word CAN

And there is no minimum logging requirement.

Cache owners have discretion in the minimum. Show me otherwise

John in Valley Forge

+John in Valley Forge

Posted
Posted

Let me do it... Let ME!!

 

The guidelines say you have to allow a smiley if the cacher signs the log. It does NOT say you HAVE to sign the log to collect a smiley. There is cache owner discretion on logging a find but there is NOT discretion if the log IS signed.

 

I have no idea how you can get to your position from the sentence "Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed."

 

Is it that the signature is considered by some to be an Additional Logging Requirement?

 

Ahem...

 

This is why people use the popcorn icon.

 

It's all in the word CAN

And there is no minimum logging requirement.

Cache owners have discretion in the minimum. Show me otherwise

 

"Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed."

 

The word CAN tells me that the first action in the sentence (be logged online as Found) is optional, the more important word in the sentence is ONCE which signifies that the second action listed (the physical log has been signed) is precedent to the first action.

 

It seems a pretty simple sentence. Obviously it is not, but rather very much in dispute in its meaning.

Ecylram

+Ecylram

Posted
Posted

"Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed."

 

The word CAN tells me that the first action in the sentence (be logged online as Found) is optional, the more important word in the sentence is ONCE which signifies that the second action listed (the physical log has been signed) is precedent to the first action.

 

It seems a pretty simple sentence. Obviously it is not, but rather very much in dispute in its meaning.

I agree. It's pretty straight forward, but now you (and I) will be called names again for that opinion.

 

I also agree with those who say the CO has the option to not require the log be physically signed.

tozainamboku

+tozainamboku

Posted
Posted (edited)
As long as you *could* have signed the log I'd claim it. If it were a situation where the cache was a long way up a light post and you couldn't climb the pole to grab it then I'd say "no", but if you were close enough to actually confirm it was the cache then it really doesn't matter. Take the smiley.
Awesome!! There are a whole bunch of caches in Nevada that I "could have signed" if only I were in Nevada. Boy, is this ever gonna get my numbers up!!

Come on, you know what he meant. I'll accept the argument that sometimes people leave a decoy, or there is something other than the cache itself that looks like a cache, so unless you actually open it up and look inside how can you actually confirm its the cache. But these situations are a rare and since the cache owner is free to delete your log, it seems reasonable to go ahead an log a find if you were actually close enough where you could have retrieved the cache but didn't because of muggles, or a swarm of bees, or some other excuse.

 

Nowhere is there a rule that says you have to sign the log. It is up to cache owner to decide if this is a good excuse for not signing the log. I know many cache owners who prefer that you don't compromise a cache to muggles and who would accept muggle activity as a good excuse. On the other hand, there are cache owners who intentionally place caches where muggles are as challenge to cache finder to figure out how to use stealth to retrieve and sign the log. You need to find out which kind of cache owner this is.

 

It might surprise some to know that I personally would not log a find if I had to leave because of muggles even if the cache owner said it was okay. If the smiley is that important, I'll wait till the muggles leave, come back later, or figure out how to be stealthy and sign the log.

 

I think it clearly states in the rules you must sign the log. Here is what it says under Additional logging requirements.

 

"As of April 4, 2009, Additional Logging Requirements can no longer be grounds for deleting a cache find. Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed."

 

So according to Groundspeak, yes you must sign the log. As others have said, let your conscience be your guide.

Wouldn't want to disappoint my fans :) so I will respond.

 

The supposed rule you quoted was added on April 3, 2009 precisely for the reason you quoted - Additional Logging Requirements were no longer allowed after that date. If a cacher finds a cache they are told that they can log a find online once they have signed the physical log regardless of any ALR that might appear on the cache page. The particular wording continues to allow a cache owner to delete logs that appear to be bogus; using the physical log book is one way to confirm a find is not bogus. Nowhere do it say that a cache owner must delete logs if the log book is not signed.

Edited by tozainamboku
John in Valley Forge

+John in Valley Forge

Posted
Posted

"Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed."

 

The word CAN tells me that the first action in the sentence (be logged online as Found) is optional, the more important word in the sentence is ONCE which signifies that the second action listed (the physical log has been signed) is precedent to the first action.

 

It seems a pretty simple sentence. Obviously it is not, but rather very much in dispute in its meaning.

I agree. It's pretty straight forward, but now you (and I) will be called names again for that opinion.

 

I also agree with those who say the CO has the option to not require the log be physically signed.

 

I would agree with you that the CO has the discretion to accept online logs that do not have an signed logbook to back them up. I figure that is the way to handle unique situations, with discretion.

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