How would you rate this cache?

[+FreeBird65]

The cache itself would be hidden atop a wall. I can't give any more information than that. Only access to the top of the wall would be via ladder or bucket truck. The wall is 18-20 feet high. The "special equipment" requirement in clayjar's rating system gives this one a 5 terrain rating, but that seems too harsh. Looking for input. TIA.

[+briansnat]

I consider special equipment to be something that the average geocacher will not have with him or have access to AND requires specialized knowledge or skill to use. I wouldn't put a ladder in that category. If it were my cache I'd probably rate it 3.5

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

The cache itself would be hidden atop a wall. I can't give any more information than that. Only access to the top of the wall would be via ladder or bucket truck. The wall is 18-20 feet high. The "special equipment" requirement in clayjar's rating system gives this one a 5 terrain rating, but that seems too harsh. Looking for input. TIA.

Regarding those that have no ladder or bucket truck -- is it possible/probably those attempting the cache will be causing damage to the wall or surrounding area (i.e. making a ladder)?

 

If the answer is "yes", then I wouldn't place the cache.

 

Whose wall, BTW? There is a liability question regarding both damage and injury.

 

Outside of that -- the difficulty of 4.5+ seems good. Am guessing it cannot be seen from below, hence the difficulty rating may also be high.

[+bittsen]

I will chime in and ask what is special about this location or the cache?

If someone has a cache atop a 20 foot wall that requires a ladder or bucket truck and it's just a garden variety micro, I would put them on my ignore list.

 

As for the Clayjar rating system and briansnats reply, I typically don't carry a 20 foot ladder or bucket truck with me. When it becomes necessary to always carry a 20 foot ladder, I will give up geocaching. In reality, if I know a cache is atop a 20 foot wall that requires a ladder, I will ignore the cache. It's just not something I want to do to find a cache.

[+Team Cotati]

I'd stick with clayjar's 5.

[+FreeBird65]

I don't necessarily enjoy the every day skirt lifter. I more enjoy the challenge of getting to the cache - on the top of a mountain, in a water culvert, or on top of a wall.

 

I'm trying to not give too many details on "the wall" as I know some of the possible hunters are active on here.

 

Let's just say the structure is sound. You can do no damage to it by placing a ladder up against it. I suppose you could throw a grappling hook over the top and then pull yourself up.

 

I learn something every day about what I should have in my bag that might help me retrieve a cache - a piece of wire, magnet on a string, etc. I thought why not a ladder. Sure, maybe only 3 people will go to the trouble of finding it.

 

I had in my mind a 3 - 3.5 as well. The difficulty rating will be low. The hunter will have to put two and two together - cache should be easy to find with a 1.5D, but it is not here at the base of the wall??? Ah, terrain is high - where else could it be?

[+briansnat]

I learn something every day about what I should have in my bag that might help me retrieve a cache - a piece of wire, magnet on a string, etc. I thought why not a ladder. Sure, maybe only 3 people will go to the trouble of finding it.

 

I found a cache that was too high in a tree for me to reach. I went back and got a chair so I could retrieve it. I don't think that makes it 5 star terrain.

 

Geocachers don't usually carry chairs, but they should have easy access to one and they require no special skill to use. I put a ladder in the same category. I think most geocachers would either own a ladder or know someone they can borrow one from.

[+Walts Hunting]

The ladder makes it a 5. That is a problem with the system but it is what it is. There is no difference between yours and one on an island that requires a kayak. I would almost be willing to bet there are more cachers with kayaks than 20 foot ladder.

[+The red-haired witch]

In my opinion, it clearly falls within the definition of terrain 5.

 

Relative to Briansnat comment about a chair not being specialised equipment, if a cache is only a couple feet too high to reach, you could pile up a few logs, climb on your bike, on your backpack, on a chair or even on a caching partner , so I agree that no specialized equipment is needed.

 

But if the cache is on top of a 20 feet wall, you need climbing gear or a big ladder, so, yes, that is specialized equipment. 20 feet is also high enough to kill yourself if you fall. Terrain 5 (as well as the climbing attribute) serves as a kind of safety warning... I will not try a terrain 5 cache alone. A terrain 3 or 3.5 might be a bit rough, but not that dangerous.

[GermanSailor]

The wall is 18-20 feet high. The "special equipment" requirement in clayjar's rating system gives this one a 5 terrain rating, but that seems too harsh. Looking for input. TIA.

A wall 6 meters high - T5

 

GermanSailor

Edited May 11, 2010 by GermanSailor

[+buttaskotch]

I disagree with BrianSnat, I have no ladder, grappling hook or bucket truck nor know anyone that has any of those or able to move these to cache location, assuming that the ladder is 20 ft tall, that's not going to fit in my car.

Hence, a 5 rating would be suitable for someone like myself.

 

Another issue re: liability, hoping that PERMISSION was granted to CO

[+StarBrand]

I just can't see a ladder as special equipment or skills needed either. Most I would rate it is a 4.

 

I too worry a bit about permission and damage issues.

[+atmospherium]

A ladder is certainly "special equipment". I don't carry ladders in my back pocket nor in the trunk of my car. A 5 for that.

 

If there is ANY possible way a cacher could reach the cache without any equipment at all, then 4.5. Otherwise you'll get nothing but complaints. Better to overrate than underate.

 

***DISCLIAMER*** The opinions give above are solely my own and are just as easily ignored as yours.

[+briansnat]

I disagree with BrianSnat, I have no ladder, grappling hook or bucket truck nor know anyone that has any of those or able to move these to cache location, assuming that the ladder is 20 ft tall, that's not going to fit in my car.

Hence, a 5 rating would be suitable for someone like myself.

 

Another issue re: liability, hoping that PERMISSION was granted to CO

 

You know me. Have ladder, will travel.

[+FreeBird65]

Okay - here is my real motive. I plan to be "just in the neighborhood" with a ladder to rent for anyone hunting.

 

When I started caching, I did not carry a flashlight, wire, string with a magnet among other items. I've learned over the months of doing this. Why can't a ladder just be part of the learning experience? A "Little Giant" type ladder fits in most vehicles and would get you to this cache location.

Edited May 11, 2010 by FreeBird65

[+roziecakes]

I disagree with BrianSnat, I have no ladder, grappling hook or bucket truck nor know anyone that has any of those or able to move these to cache location, assuming that the ladder is 20 ft tall, that's not going to fit in my car.

Hence, a 5 rating would be suitable for someone like myself.

 

Another issue re: liability, hoping that PERMISSION was granted to CO

 

I do have to agree with you. We have a local cache that was originally rated with a 4 terrain because it was in a tree that was climbable. Some of the lower branches were removed on the tree, now requiring a ladder. We had to borrow a friend with a ladder to get it. I would call that a 5 terrain, because a ladder is not something we typically carry in our geocaching backpack, of course. Since we don't have a ladder it took us several months of asking people to help us.

 

I think if it would be something that MOST people couldn't do without getting a ladder there I would call it a 5. Granted, you'll have some person who can scale 20 feet walls in a single jump, or who are so tall they can stand on a chair and reach it, or something like that, but just because there are exceptions to the rule doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a terrain rating that will cover most people.

 

I would go to find it I like a challenge.

[+The red-haired witch]

When I started caching, I did not carry a flashlight, wire, string with a magnet among other items. I've learned over the months of doing this. Why can't a ladder just be part of the learning experience? A "Little Giant" type ladder fits in most vehicles and would get you to this cache location.

 

Unlike (most) flashlights, wires, strings and magnets, those "little Giants" ladders cost a few hundred of dollars. A bit much to buy just for a cache (not saying it can't be useful for many other things, but not everyone owns/needs a 20 feet ladder). And it really won't fit in your caching kit if you cache by bus, bicycle, motorcycle or even some sub-compact car

 

Nice of you to offer to rent yours, but if you're not always going to be by the cache, people need to either bring their own or make an appointment with you. I don't think that makes it terrain 3.

 

Anyway, I'm unlikely to go caching in your area, but you asked for opinions, so you are getting them.

 

I think that, when in doubt, over-rating terrain is better than under-rating it :

 

- If you put too many stars, some people will comment it was too easy in their log, but they'll still be happy they found the cache.

 

- If you put too few stars, some people may try for your cache even though the terrain is really above their ability, then see where they have to go and have to turn away without trying (or worse, try even though they shouldn't and get hurt in the process... For my part, I usually avoid climbing caches, but I've been known to do some tree climbing for a cache with a low terrain rating, alone in the middle of the woods, because I wouldn't turn away empty handed after an hour long hike I've been lucky so far when doing dumb things like that)

 

I think you'll have more unhappy people in the second situation...

Edited May 11, 2010 by The red-haired witch

[+roziecakes]

Yeah, sure a ladder can be part of my learning experience, want to buy me one? Hey, it's easy!

 

***Only joking, just so you know***

Edited May 11, 2010 by nymphnsatyr

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I learn something every day about what I should have in my bag that might help me retrieve a cache - a piece of wire, magnet on a string, etc. I thought why not a ladder. Sure, maybe only 3 people will go to the trouble of finding it.

 

I found a cache that was too high in a tree for me to reach. I went back and got a chair so I could retrieve it. I don't think that makes it 5 star terrain.

 

Geocachers don't usually carry chairs, but they should have easy access to one and they require no special skill to use. I put a ladder in the same category. I think most geocachers would either own a ladder or know someone they can borrow one from.

 

I have always enjoyed reading this log on a cache that's located 15-20' off the ground. I DNFd it soon after it came out because I wasn't prepared. One of these day I'll throw a ladder on my vehicle and may eventually find it, especially since it's D/T rating is one I haven't yet done.

Edited May 11, 2010 by NYPaddleCacher

[+BulldogBlitz]

i only cache in a bucket truck....

 

that carries my scuba gear... and grappling hooks.... and extend-an-arm grabber...

 

 

so this cache would only be a 2.

[+sea_dragon]

You'll be renting a ladder to cachers?

 

Sound's like a commercial cache to me. Good luck getting it approved...

[+Chokecherry]

Ok here's my theory. I would not carry a 20 ft ladder with me caching. Just as I probably wouldn't carry my canoe or skuba gear.

 

So lets say there's a cache that you have to canoe to. I own a canoe and most people have access to some sort of vessel to cross water with but does that mean the cache should not be a 5 just because people have access to the equipment?

 

I would rate it a 5 in terrain based on the fact that most cachers are not toting around a 20 ft ladder.

[+briansnat]

Ok here's my theory. I would not carry a 20 ft ladder with me caching. Just as I probably wouldn't carry my canoe or skuba gear.

 

So lets say there's a cache that you have to canoe to. I own a canoe and most people have access to some sort of vessel to cross water with but does that mean the cache should not be a 5 just because people have access to the equipment?

 

I would rate it a 5 in terrain based on the fact that most cachers are not toting around a 20 ft ladder.

You might not have it with you but can you reasonably obtain it and posses the skills to use it it? Most geocachers don't head out with a phillips head screwdriver or a wrench, yet I've encountered caches that required these. Should they be rated 5 stars for terrain?

 

I've found a number of caches that required more than I had with me ranging from a pen, to waders to a flashlight. I don't think any of that rises to the level of a 5 star cache.

Edited May 12, 2010 by briansnat

[+Chokecherry]

The tools used to open the cache have NOTHING to do with terrain. The terrain is what it takes the reach the cache.

 

Per the knowledge books a 5 star terrain means "Requires specialized equipment and knowledge or experience (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc.) or is otherwise extremely difficult."

 

Most people have "access to" a boat or can rent a 4wd vehicle but that doesn't mean that the cache rating is lowered because most people have access to that stuff. It means that you have to use your specialized equipment. Unless one can spiderman up that wall then specialized equipment is needed to get up it.

[+wolfslady]

IMO if you want to rate the cache lower than 5 you need to clearly state that you need to bring a 20' ladder to get to it. I wouldn't agree but I wouldn't be angry and ignore your future caches.

 

Can I borrow a 20 foot ladder. Sure my DH is returning my neighbors as we speak because our cat was stuck in a tree for 2 days and our ladder wasn't quite long enough. We have a truck so we could even move the carseat to it and squeeze in so we could get to it. But most people don't have something large enough to carry one (and no I can't afford a fancy folding one) so it's silly to act like it's not a big hassle and most people have access to one. It's not a screwdriver or a wrench. Both of which I carried in my car before geocaching. Both of which I learned within weeks that I might need, even though I haven't so far. Same with magnets. I can easily toss one in my bag. Once you have to leave to get something that most experianced geocachers wouldn't carry with them or couldn't easily carry it should be a 5.

 

Rate it what you want but like someone else said no one is going to get angry that you rated it a 5, but a lot of people might think you are a jerk if they get out there and need a ladder for a 3.5 or even a 4. Good luck whatever you decide.

[+buttaskotch]

I disagree with BrianSnat, I have no ladder, grappling hook or bucket truck nor know anyone that has any of those or able to move these to cache location, assuming that the ladder is 20 ft tall, that's not going to fit in my car.

Hence, a 5 rating would be suitable for someone like myself.

 

Another issue re: liability, hoping that PERMISSION was granted to CO

 

You know me. Have ladder, will travel.

Ooohhhhh, Road trip in our future? )

[+buttaskotch]

Okay - here is my real motive. I plan to be "just in the neighborhood" with a ladder to rent for anyone hunting.

 

When I started caching, I did not carry a flashlight, wire, string with a magnet among other items. I've learned over the months of doing this. Why can't a ladder just be part of the learning experience? A "Little Giant" type ladder fits in most vehicles and would get you to this cache location.

Something else to put into my tiny NYC apartment....

[+BigAl437]

Sorry, but if I have to take a ladder that just doesn't sound like a family outing to me. I cache mostly with my family and the ladder would not fit with my wife and three kids. This would not be one I would do with them. Now concerning the rating. I agree with the stated position above that it's better to over rate than under rate. I know how I have felt when I have gotten to a cache and found out it is a lot harder (terrain) than what the CP says it was. So have fun and be safe.

[+bittsen]

OK briansnat, self proclaimed "Geocacher of the decade"...

 

Allow me to demonstrate WHY a ladder is "special equipment" and why the cache that requires a 20 foot ladder should be rated a 5.

 

Yes, for a park and grab the need for a 20 foot ladder is easily accomodated BUT what if the cache is located at the top of a 20 foot wall at the end of a 3 mile hike on flat ground on a trail that winds through the trees?

 

A ladder IS special equipment that would make a 3 mile hike hell. But the same cache at the base of a tree at the end of a 3 mile hike would be a 1.5 or 2 terrain. Does it go to a 4 because you have to snake a 20 foot ladder through the forest? No, it's a 5 because it needs special equipment.

[+Chokecherry]

Even for a park and grab it's still special equipment. I have to drive 40 miles at times to just get to park and grabs back into the woods where there are no people around just to get out of the car and grab something. I'm going out on a limb here but I'm guessing joe average does not carry a 20 foot ladder in the car.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

IMO if you want to rate the cache lower than 5 you need to clearly state that you need to bring a 20' ladder to get to it. I wouldn't agree but I wouldn't be angry and ignore your future caches.

 

A cache which is top of a 20' wall doesn't *require* a 20' ladder to retrieve. A 20' ladder is just one piece of special equipment which could be used to retrieve the cache. There may be plenty of other of other options if one uses their imagination. That, to me, is what makes caches like that interesting. So, if I lived in an NYC apartment and didn't own a 20' ladder I'd have to figure out some other way to retrieve the cache if I wanted to log a find on it.

[+JL_HSTRE]

I'm not sure I know anyone who owns a 20 ft tall ladder.

 

4 difficulty

5 terrain

[+wolfslady]

IMO if you want to rate the cache lower than 5 you need to clearly state that you need to bring a 20' ladder to get to it. I wouldn't agree but I wouldn't be angry and ignore your future caches.

 

A cache which is top of a 20' wall doesn't *require* a 20' ladder to retrieve. A 20' ladder is just one piece of special equipment which could be used to retrieve the cache. There may be plenty of other of other options if one uses their imagination. That, to me, is what makes caches like that interesting. So, if I lived in an NYC apartment and didn't own a 20' ladder I'd have to figure out some other way to retrieve the cache if I wanted to log a find on it.

 

 

 

The OP stated that you would NEED a ladder or bucket truck to reach the cache, leading me to believe that it was a wall that likely couldn't be climbed. (Although they did state later that a grappling hook MIGHT be an option to climb the wall. I'd assume that it might be an option to pull the cache down to you and then toss it up again, but hey it better be a sturdy box. LOL) I’m not sure what kind of ladders you are using to climb 15-20 foot walls but the one’s I use for that height need to be leaned against the wall. That means some angle is required for safety. I guess if you had someone with you to hold it, you could use a steeper angle. But a 20’ wall with a 5’ something person is still going to need a 20’ ladder to do it with even a small amount of safety. I guess if you had one of those (folding) ladders that are free standing and you were willing to stand on the very top you could get away with one that is 15’ But although I’ve seen them, I don’t know anyone who personally owns one that tall.

 

 

I was looking at a place that I thought would be cool to put a geocache. It was on a beam under a bridge that crosses a river. (no turn around road) The sides of the supports are round smooth concrete. You would need a ladder. There might be a very few people who could manage to find a way to climb to it without one, but they would still need equipment. It would have to be a 5. If I did it I would want to make it a puzzle so that it is a 5 difficulty or I’d want to find a way for someone to lower it without the ladder, but people sometimes fish there so it would have be a way that is hidden. I also understand that people aren’t always fond of caches under bridges and I haven’t been around long enough to understand if the reasons for that and if I could make this one special enough to overcome that dislike. The place also needs some CITO so that is another issue. I only had a few minutes to check it out when I was headed home from elsewhere and no time to think about rather it would actually be a good idea or not, just something that is in the back of my mind to consider. If I do it I will put on the cache page what special equipment is required. Just like I’ve seen on all of the caches that require a boat or scuba gear that I’ve seen so far. I’m just wondering is it usual for someone to put a cache in a swamp or somewhere else you need a boat to reach it and not mention it? Some of it’s just too sneaky for me. I don’t mind having to work to find a good hide but I don’t want to have to drive back for one (or go out of my way) only to discover I wasted the limited time I have for geocaching on one that needed tools most people wouldn’t have with them. It doesn’t help that where I live there are only about a dozen geocaches within a 10 mile drive of my house, and it's often a 1 to 5 mile drive between them, so wasting gas isn’t fun to me either. But everyone seems to have their own rules and ideas. I for one will try to keep other people's effort in mind when I rate my caches and write the discription.

[+buttaskotch]

IMO if you want to rate the cache lower than 5 you need to clearly state that you need to bring a 20' ladder to get to it. I wouldn't agree but I wouldn't be angry and ignore your future caches.

 

A cache which is top of a 20' wall doesn't *require* a 20' ladder to retrieve. A 20' ladder is just one piece of special equipment which could be used to retrieve the cache. There may be plenty of other of other options if one uses their imagination. That, to me, is what makes caches like that interesting. So, if I lived in an NYC apartment and didn't own a 20' ladder I'd have to figure out some other way to retrieve the cache if I wanted to log a find on it.

Absolutely correct and that other way would more than likely require other "special" equipment

[+NYPaddleCacher]

IMO if you want to rate the cache lower than 5 you need to clearly state that you need to bring a 20' ladder to get to it. I wouldn't agree but I wouldn't be angry and ignore your future caches.

 

A cache which is top of a 20' wall doesn't *require* a 20' ladder to retrieve. A 20' ladder is just one piece of special equipment which could be used to retrieve the cache. There may be plenty of other of other options if one uses their imagination. That, to me, is what makes caches like that interesting. So, if I lived in an NYC apartment and didn't own a 20' ladder I'd have to figure out some other way to retrieve the cache if I wanted to log a find on it.

 

 

 

The OP stated that you would NEED a ladder or bucket truck to reach the cache, leading me to believe that it was a wall that likely couldn't be climbed. (Although they did state later that a grappling hook MIGHT be an option to climb the wall.

 

In that case, it was also that OP that wasn't using much imagination in describing what was needed to retrieve the cache. I've ready about quite a few challenging cachers where the finders used an approach that the OP never considered to retrieve a cache.

 

 

I was looking at a place that I thought would be cool to put a geocache. It was on a beam under a bridge that crosses a river. (no turn around road) The sides of the supports are round smooth concrete. You would need a ladder. There might be a very few people who could manage to find a way to climb to it without one, but they would still need equipment. It would have to be a 5. If I did it I would want to make it a puzzle so that it is a 5 difficulty ...

 

I have seen quite a few caches which had a 5 terrain rating due to special equipment requirements and a 5 rating for difficulty because it included a puzzle. Unfortunately, sometimes it appears that the CO was more interesting in having a 5/ 5 cache then was rate the cache as an accurate reflection of the overall difficulty.

A cache on an island a few hundred feet out in a lake might be rated a 5 for terrain but pretty much anyone can spent less than $5 for an inflatable raft to get that island and it would be rated exactly the same as a cache which required scuba gear (which requires a lot more training and certification just to rent the gear) or a cache 1 mile from shore out to an island in the open ocean. When rating puzzles I have to wonder how many COs have actually solved a few 5 star difficulty puzzles prior to applying that rating to theirs. The 5 star difficulty guideline suggests that it might require several days and/or visits to find. That suggests to me that if the difficultly is based on a puzzle that the puzzle should take at least several days to solve. I've done one that took over a month to solve and from what I've read from others that solved it many spent a considerably longer. I've also done 5 star puzzles which took me an hour or so to figure out how to approach it, then only 15 minutes or so to successfully solve it.

 

I’m just wondering is it usual for someone to put a cache in a swamp or somewhere else you need a boat to reach it and not mention it? Some of it’s just too sneaky for me. I don’t mind having to work to find a good hide but I don’t want to have to drive back for one (or go out of my way) only to discover I wasted the limited time I have for geocaching on one that needed tools most people wouldn’t have with them. It doesn’t help that where I live there are only about a dozen geocaches within a 10 mile drive of my house, and it's often a 1 to 5 mile drive between them, so wasting gas isn’t fun to me either. But everyone seems to have their own rules and ideas. I for one will try to keep other people's effort in mind when I rate my caches and write the discription.

 

I understand where you're coming from as I typically have to drive 40 miles or so round trip to go caching. My primary point about the 20' ladder was that the CO doesn't necessarily have to get specific about what sort of challenges one might encounter as long as it's rated accurately. As I said, a cache rated 4 or higher is *supposed* to be difficult, and at least for a 5 star difficult mutilple visits to find it should be the rule, not the exception.

[+Chokecherry]

Yes, but we're talking about terrain rating not difficulty rating. Terrain rating states at 5 star that special equipment is needed to get to the cache.