Requiring photos to log an Earthcache

January 17, 2010

Yes it's me MTMANVA2. and I want photos. Have a good day!

Edited January 17, 2010 by mtmanva2

2.9k · January 17, 2010

CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHY I HAVE TO SIGN THE LOG FOR A TRADITIONAL CACHE? HECK IF I FOUND IT, HELD IT, OPENED IT, THEN WHY DO I HAVE TO SIGN IT?

You miss the point entirely. Forcing people to take a picture with their faces in it is just plain silly and an ALR to boot. Not only that, it can be a pain in the butt if you're caching alone to get a good face picture.

If an Earthcache is so weak that it necessitates a face picture to prove the finder was there, it needs to be retooled.

1.4k · January 17, 2010

You are wrong...

CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHY I HAVE TO SIGN THE LOG FOR A TRADITIONAL CACHE? HECK IF I FOUND IT, HELD IT, OPENED IT, THEN WHY DO I HAVE TO SIGN IT?

You miss the point entirely. Forcing people to take a picture with their faces in it is just plain silly and an ALR to boot. Not only that, it can be a pain in the butt if you're caching alone to get a good face picture.

If an Earthcache is so weak that it necessitates a face picture to prove the finder was there, it needs to be retooled.

4.8k · January 17, 2010

CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHY I HAVE TO SIGN THE LOG FOR A TRADITIONAL CACHE? HECK IF I FOUND IT, HELD IT, OPENED IT, THEN WHY DO I HAVE TO SIGN IT?

What an ironic statement coming from someone concerned with the logging of extremely difficult 5/5* caches

I'm assuming I missed the :huh: in there somewhere.

But to answer your question, because the Guidelines say so :laughing:

Of course, it's a free country.... :shocked:

If an Earthcache is so weak that it necessitates a face picture to prove the finder was there, it needs to be retooled.

I think they're right.

My 0.02

1.1k · January 17, 2010

You are wrong...

CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHY I HAVE TO SIGN THE LOG FOR A TRADITIONAL CACHE? HECK IF I FOUND IT, HELD IT, OPENED IT, THEN WHY DO I HAVE TO SIGN IT?

You miss the point entirely. Forcing people to take a picture with their faces in it is just plain silly and an ALR to boot. Not only that, it can be a pain in the butt if you're caching alone to get a good face picture.

If an Earthcache is so weak that it necessitates a face picture to prove the finder was there, it needs to be retooled.

My, that sure out them in their place. No way anyone can counter a well thought out rebuttal like that.

1.4k · January 18, 2010

The whole point of the statement was that an signature is required for physical caches. Since you cannot sign a log at a EC, the picture is same as a signature.

A picture ofthe finder is not a ALR. Wearing clown shoes, buying a testing kit, writting a poem, and standing on your head is a ALR.

Anyway I'm done defending pictures at ECs.

Groundspeak has final say so. Until then I will still require pictures of the finders at my old ECs and a picture at my new ECs.

If they say remove it, then so be it.

Regards.

CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHY I HAVE TO SIGN THE LOG FOR A TRADITIONAL CACHE? HECK IF I FOUND IT, HELD IT, OPENED IT, THEN WHY DO I HAVE TO SIGN IT?

What an ironic statement coming from someone concerned with the logging of extremely difficult 5/5* caches

I'm assuming I missed the in there somewhere.

But to answer your question, because the Guidelines say so

Of course, it's a free country....

If an Earthcache is so weak that it necessitates a face picture to prove the finder was there, it needs to be retooled.

I think they're right.

My 0.02

1.1k · January 18, 2010

The whole point of the statement was that an signature is required for physical caches. Since you cannot sign a log at a EC, the picture is same as a signature.

A picture ofthe finder is not a ALR. Wearing clown shoes, buying a testing kit, writting a poem, and standing on your head is a ALR.

Anyway I'm done defending pictures at ECs.

Groundspeak has final say so. Until then I will still require pictures of the finders at my old ECs and a picture at my new ECs.

If they say remove it, then so be it.

Regards.

CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHY I HAVE TO SIGN THE LOG FOR A TRADITIONAL CACHE? HECK IF I FOUND IT, HELD IT, OPENED IT, THEN WHY DO I HAVE TO SIGN IT?

What an ironic statement coming from someone concerned with the logging of extremely difficult 5/5* caches

I'm assuming I missed the in there somewhere.

But to answer your question, because the Guidelines say so

Of course, it's a free country....

If an Earthcache is so weak that it necessitates a face picture to prove the finder was there, it needs to be retooled.

I think they're right.

My 0.02

Leave a camera there then, mines broken but even if it worked I seldom carry one caching, and since Groundspeak doesn't require a photo the only way you'd get one from me is if you provide the camera.

And if you rejected it I'd file an appeal to Groundspeak over your ALR to get my log reinstated.

This is all moot since I'm unlikely to find one of yours but others will who will feel that way, and I have to wonder why you wish to be obstinate over an issue Groundspeak is not.

6.8k · January 18, 2010

So you MAY request a photograph but it can't take the place of a good on-site logging task. If your logging tasks are poor, we will ask you to strengthen them before your EC is published.

I am wondering when a logging tasks will be called poor by you. Could you please explain that in view of the example I refer to below?

I would have thought that a question like whether a spring/well currently is dry (a simple yes/no question) like asked in this cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...83-2d8cfb29dd8f

is quite poor if it is the only logging task besides the photo requirement.

I am not astonished at all that creators of such logging requirements feel the photo to be fundamentally necessary.

Cezanne

January 18, 2010

So you MAY request a photograph but it can't take the place of a good on-site logging task. If your logging tasks are poor, we will ask you to strengthen them before your EC is published.

I am wondering when a logging tasks will be called poor by you. Could you please explain that in view of the example I refer to below?

I would have thought that a question like whether a spring/well currently is dry (a simple yes/no question) like asked in this cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...83-2d8cfb29dd8f

is quite poor if it is the only logging task besides the photo requirement.

I am not astonished at all that creators of such logging requirements feel the photo to be fundamentally necessary.

Cezanne

Logging tasks are poor if (and this is not an exhaustive list) :

1. They can be answered by doing an internet search or using Google Earth

2. They are reading a simple fact from a sign and not involving the participant in thinking

3. They are not related to the topic covered in the text

4. They are taking a measurement that is not related to the text

The whole reason we have a logging task is, in a way, for you to test the people that visit your EC if they have learned from the experience. That whole objective of EC if for people to learn, rather than just to drop in an admire the view (which may also be a wonderful thing, but not the main objective). I understand that people want a WOW factor and, for EC, the WOW should be in the learning! Your logging task is your proof that they have both visited AND learned something. With a strong set of logging tasks, the photo task is purely secondary and should be treated as such. And, as the guidelines say, if you require people to have specific content not related to the lesson or site, then the photo must be optional.

I think the original question for this topic has now been well and truly explained. Thanks for all your comments and I hope you can all move forward within the new guidelines.

2.9k · January 19, 2010

The whole point of the statement was that an signature is required for physical caches. Since you cannot sign a log at a EC, the picture is same as a signature.

Again, no it is not. Answering questions that can only be done by actually visiting the site of a well-crafted EC is the cacher's virtual signature.

A picture ofthe finder is not a ALR. Wearing clown shoes, buying a testing kit, writting a poem, and standing on your head is a ALR.

A picture requiring a face shot is an ALR, at least according to the new rules.

Anyway I'm done defending pictures at ECs.

Groundspeak has final say so. Until then I will still require pictures of the finders at my old ECs and a picture at my new ECs.

If they say remove it, then so be it.

Regards.

Openly defying the guidelines...this is gonna end well.

January 19, 2010

(Oops - double post. See below:)

Edited January 19, 2010 by Arby Gee

January 19, 2010

I think making photos optional is a good idea myself. I've never required a photo on any of the 8 ECs I've published. There have been hundreds of finds logged, and of those I've deleted maybe a dozen or so because of poor or non-existent answers. But I see no evidence at all that anyone is passing around the answers and armchair Earthcaching. The whole point of Earthcaching is to learn something, and when it comes to learning, one good question is worth a whole page of text. A photo teaches nothing.

I'll be glad to see the photo requirement eliminated when it comes to the ECs I find too. I do most of my caching by myself and trying to take a decent picture can be a real nuisance. My digital camera is fairly bulky and I don't always want to lug it around with me when I'm caching. My cell phone is much smaller, but it's almost impossible to frame myself in the picture with the appropriate background. There have been some Earthcaches where I've spent more time trying to get the stupid photo right than actually exploring and learning the geology. And if Earthcaches make up a high percentage of the caches you do, your gallery ends up with a bunch of pictures of your big head blocking out the background, usually with some kind of goofy expression on your face trying to snap the picture.

And as for the idea of the picture being comparable to signing a logbook, just how many COs go out there and read the logbooks and check them against the online logs???

2.9k · January 19, 2010

I couldn't have said it better myself.

January 19, 2010

I have changed my EC photo requirements so that only the EC object in question is only needed thing to be seen in a picture. Photo quality is almost irrelevant as long as earthcache object can be seen there. Phone pictures or otherwise bad pictures are infact quite good as that really show finders own fingerprint that one has actually visited the site. :huh:

I still think it is taking pictures don't rule out any educational purposes of EC's. In my mind seeing in general and making in this case photos yourself helps in learning process and is that way educational.

January 19, 2010

Are we missing a fundamental point here? If you go back and look at the posted photos, 99% of them show a common theme -- those folks are enjoying themselves! They're tromping around in the woods, over rocks, at the shore, etc, etc, and they're glad to share the images with the world.

From an academic point of view, the pix may be meaningless, but from a people-oriented point of view, they are out having fun learning about geology.

January 19, 2010

Are we missing a fundamental point here? If you go back and look at the posted photos, 99% of them show a common theme -- those folks are enjoying themselves! They're tromping around in the woods, over rocks, at the shore, etc, etc, and they're glad to share the images with the world.

From an academic point of view, the pix may be meaningless, but from a people-oriented point of view, they are out having fun learning about geology.

Absolutely!! They're having fun because they're out there enjoying nature, whether they've got a camera with them or not. For those pathetic individuals who would prefer to sit at home in front of their computer and log caches that they never visited - let 'em! It's their loss, not mine. I'm not about to babysit the wretches. (They'd be better off logging my traditional caches though, because I don't crosscheck the logbooks. If they want to log my ECs they better send me some good answers.) And anyone who wants to post pictures on my ECs is more than welcome to - the more the merrier. I'm just not going to require it for those who'd rather not.

2.5k · January 19, 2010

The whole point of the statement was that an signature is required for physical caches. Since you cannot sign a log at a EC, the picture is same as a signature.

A picture ofthe finder is not a ALR. Wearing clown shoes, buying a testing kit, writting a poem, and standing on your head is a ALR.

Anyway I'm done defending pictures at ECs.

Groundspeak has final say so. Until then I will still require pictures of the finders at my old ECs and a picture at my new ECs.

If they say remove it, then so be it.

Regards.

CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHY I HAVE TO SIGN THE LOG FOR A TRADITIONAL CACHE? HECK IF I FOUND IT, HELD IT, OPENED IT, THEN WHY DO I HAVE TO SIGN IT?

What an ironic statement coming from someone concerned with the logging of extremely difficult 5/5* caches

I'm assuming I missed the in there somewhere.

But to answer your question, because the Guidelines say so

Of course, it's a free country....

If an Earthcache is so weak that it necessitates a face picture to prove the finder was there, it needs to be retooled.

I think they're right.

My 0.02

Leave a camera there then, mines broken but even if it worked I seldom carry one caching, and since Groundspeak doesn't require a photo the only way you'd get one from me is if you provide the camera.

And if you rejected it I'd file an appeal to Groundspeak over your ALR to get my log reinstated.

This is all moot since I'm unlikely to find one of yours but others will who will feel that way, and I have to wonder why you wish to be obstinate over an issue Groundspeak is not.

That is like saying that I want to cache but I don't have a gps can you leave one in the cache container for me. Why are you even adding your two cents when you haven't even done a earthcache or even found one yet? :anicute:

2.5k · January 19, 2010

I think making photos optional is a good idea myself. I've never required a photo on any of the 8 ECs I've published. There have been hundreds of finds logged, and of those I've deleted maybe a dozen or so because of poor or non-existent answers. But I see no evidence at all that anyone is passing around the answers and armchair Earthcaching. The whole point of Earthcaching is to learn something, and when it comes to learning, one good question is worth a whole page of text. A photo teaches nothing.

I'll be glad to see the photo requirement eliminated when it comes to the ECs I find too. I do most of my caching by myself and trying to take a decent picture can be a real nuisance. My digital camera is fairly bulky and I don't always want to lug it around with me when I'm caching. My cell phone is much smaller, but it's almost impossible to frame myself in the picture with the appropriate background. There have been some Earthcaches where I've spent more time trying to get the stupid photo right than actually exploring and learning the geology. And if Earthcaches make up a high percentage of the caches you do, your gallery ends up with a bunch of pictures of your big head blocking out the background, usually with some kind of goofy expression on your face trying to snap the picture.

And as for the idea of the picture being comparable to signing a logbook, just how many COs go out there and read the logbooks and check them against the online logs???

I know someone on this page that went out and checked there cache to see if there was a name writtened on the log book and deleted it. So I think a picture of the EC location is a good idea.

1.1k · January 19, 2010

The whole point of the statement was that an signature is required for physical caches. Since you cannot sign a log at a EC, the picture is same as a signature.

A picture ofthe finder is not a ALR. Wearing clown shoes, buying a testing kit, writting a poem, and standing on your head is a ALR.

Anyway I'm done defending pictures at ECs.

Groundspeak has final say so. Until then I will still require pictures of the finders at my old ECs and a picture at my new ECs.

If they say remove it, then so be it.

Regards.

CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHY I HAVE TO SIGN THE LOG FOR A TRADITIONAL CACHE? HECK IF I FOUND IT, HELD IT, OPENED IT, THEN WHY DO I HAVE TO SIGN IT?

What an ironic statement coming from someone concerned with the logging of extremely difficult 5/5* caches

I'm assuming I missed the in there somewhere.

But to answer your question, because the Guidelines say so

Of course, it's a free country....

If an Earthcache is so weak that it necessitates a face picture to prove the finder was there, it needs to be retooled.

I think they're right.

My 0.02

Leave a camera there then, mines broken but even if it worked I seldom carry one caching, and since Groundspeak doesn't require a photo the only way you'd get one from me is if you provide the camera.

And if you rejected it I'd file an appeal to Groundspeak over your ALR to get my log reinstated.

This is all moot since I'm unlikely to find one of yours but others will who will feel that way, and I have to wonder why you wish to be obstinate over an issue Groundspeak is not.

That is like saying that I want to cache but I don't have a gps can you leave one in the cache container for me. Why are you even adding your two cents when you haven't even done a earthcache or even found one yet?

Not even close. It has now been confirmed that he cannot REQUIRE me to take a photo at his cache, therefore if I find one I will NOT take a photo, unless he provides the camera, in which case why not?

Since he has stated he will continue to require photos his caches now have an ALR attached to them and violate Groudspeak Guidelines, so any logs he deletes for lack of a photo must be reinstated and the ALR removed. His desire to be a control freak does not give him the right to be one.

1.1k · January 19, 2010

I think making photos optional is a good idea myself. I've never required a photo on any of the 8 ECs I've published. There have been hundreds of finds logged, and of those I've deleted maybe a dozen or so because of poor or non-existent answers. But I see no evidence at all that anyone is passing around the answers and armchair Earthcaching. The whole point of Earthcaching is to learn something, and when it comes to learning, one good question is worth a whole page of text. A photo teaches nothing.

I'll be glad to see the photo requirement eliminated when it comes to the ECs I find too. I do most of my caching by myself and trying to take a decent picture can be a real nuisance. My digital camera is fairly bulky and I don't always want to lug it around with me when I'm caching. My cell phone is much smaller, but it's almost impossible to frame myself in the picture with the appropriate background. There have been some Earthcaches where I've spent more time trying to get the stupid photo right than actually exploring and learning the geology. And if Earthcaches make up a high percentage of the caches you do, your gallery ends up with a bunch of pictures of your big head blocking out the background, usually with some kind of goofy expression on your face trying to snap the picture.

And as for the idea of the picture being comparable to signing a logbook, just how many COs go out there and read the logbooks and check them against the online logs???

I know someone on this page that went out and checked there cache to see if there was a name writtened on the log book and deleted it. So I think a picture of the EC location is a good idea.

But they are not required, nor are they needed, they are an ALR.

10.1k · January 20, 2010

Logging tasks are poor if (and this is not an exhaustive list) :

1. They can be answered by doing an internet search or using Google Earth

2. They are reading a simple fact from a sign and not involving the participant in thinking

3. They are not related to the topic covered in the text

4. They are taking a measurement that is not related to the text

The whole reason we have a logging task is, in a way, for you to test the people that visit your EC if they have learned from the experience. That whole objective of EC if for people to learn, rather than just to drop in an admire the view (which may also be a wonderful thing, but not the main objective). I understand that people want a WOW factor and, for EC, the WOW should be in the learning! Your logging task is your proof that they have both visited AND learned something. With a strong set of logging tasks, the photo task is purely secondary and should be treated as such. And, as the guidelines say, if you require people to have specific content not related to the lesson or site, then the photo must be optional.

I think the original question for this topic has now been well and truly explained. Thanks for all your comments and I hope you can all move forward within the new guidelines.

I find that that explanation answered almost nothing! Very strange.

1. Internet search... The answer might not be availble now, but it probably will be soon. Never underestimate what is available with a good Internet search! Tell that to the mystery cache owners who didn't realize that the first stages were findable on the Internet (including one of my multi caches...)

"Strong set of logging tasks". They exist?!? Oh, dear. Does this mean that EarthCaching will be re-examining EarthCaching listings again? I've never understood the strong set of logging tasls that include: Estimate the depth of the river today. Estimate the height of the cliff. I guess that that means that most of the ones I've found will be archived? (Not saying that that is necessarily bad...)

Photos. Definitely an ALR. I'm glad to see that EarthCaching is accepting this fact. My sister will only post a photo when required. She will be happy that they are no longer required. Myself, I am always happy to post photos when requested. Though that often includes Finley Dolphin perchd upon my head. Oh, well.

Presumably, photo requirements will be phased out as an ALR, as they have been at GC.com. They have never had anything to do with the learning experience at an EarthCache. They were there merely to satisfy the whim of the EarthCache owner. And that is an ALR.

January 20, 2010

I felt this deserved its own thread.

The new Earthcache guidelines state that a photo with a person in it cannot be required.

I have to say that this is a HORRIBLE idea, and a step in the wrong direction for earthcaching. I totally agree that there should be a series of answers to log a cache. However at some point those answers get out into the community, then anyone and everyone can log the earthcache from wherever they are.

The only way to prevent someone from logging while they are sitting in a couch 12000 miles away is by asking for both. If I cannot do that as an earthcache owner, like the people that are fighting off bogus loggers on V Virtuals you have tied my hands, and opened the door for problems down the road.

Please, please, please, allow me to require a photo so I can quickly and easily prove if someone is cheating.

If someone cheats they are the ones that will have to live with it for the rest of their lives. Alot of people around here do what they car "Phone A Friend" . If they can't find the cache they call someone that has already got a :huh: to tell them right where it is. We have never liked this and are glad to say all of are finds are real.

?Question?

While in Maryland two years ago we where at a park with a BIG waterfall. We (My brothers and I) took a picture of us in front of the falls because we thought it look nice. After we got back in Michigan we noticed there was a Earthcache right there. so we answered the questions and were right on all of them. Was it wrong to log this find?

Here is the photo and a link to the cache

Marylands highest water fall

January 20, 2010

What about this?

Post a picture of yourself "in front of" the limestome cut" to your log showing you and a unquie feature you find.

It does show an element for completion that is site specific.

1.4k · January 20, 2010

Here's a reminder for what geoaware wrote. You can request a photo but not of the finders face.

Just so everyone is very clear on this issue. The guideline reads :

Logging of an EarthCache must involve visitors undertaking some educational task that relates to the Earth science at the site. This could involve measuring or estimating the size of some feature or aspect of the site, collecting and recording data (such as time of a tidal bore), or sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the answer to Earth science related questions they obtained by reading an information display. While photographs may be requested, they do not take the place of other logging requirements. Taking a photograph alone or asking people to do internet research does NOT meet these logging guidelines. Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example) will be considered an additional logging requirement and must be optional. Cache owners may not delete the cache seeker's log based solely on optional tasks.

So you MAY request a photograph but it can't take the place of a good on-site logging task. If your logging tasks are poor, we will ask you to strengthen them before your EC is published.

If you want specific content in the photograph then the photograph has to be optional. We will insist that you make these optional before we publish.

So please feel free to ask people to submit photographs once you have developed great logging tasks that people can only do on-site!

1.4k · January 20, 2010

I dont ever think I will have to worry about you finding any of my ECs. For one you will have to walk to many of the ECs I own and most of them require walking uphill . That means you cannot park your car next to the ECs I own.

Control freak? Kinda strong words for not knowing who I am or what I'm wanting to do. My reason for posting a photo is proof of the visit and thats all. I have allowed logs without photos several times especially for folks like yourself who cannot afford a camera or cell phone. Judging by how many finds you have Im starting to think you dont even own a GPS.

Now that you are annalizing the new rules, I can request a photo but I cannot ask for a face in the shot. Currently the old ECs, circa 2009 and before, are unaffected by the new rules.

Can/will the rules change? Yes. Will I comply/concur? Yes. Until then I will support the current rules for the new ECs and old rules for my pre 2010 ECs. I own one new EC and it follows the new guidelines.

Listing a EC is difficult at times and making the questions difficult will more than likely turn away visitors which in turn will drop the interest in ECs all together. Its happening now. I dont see that many new ECs being published with the new system.

Someday someone will complain about an EC that requires the finder to hike a few miles and cry it's a bad idea. How dare the owner of the EC make the finder exercise... :huh: :anicute:

Enjoy!

Not even close. It has now been confirmed that he cannot REQUIRE me to take a photo at his cache, therefore if I find one I will NOT take a photo, unless he provides the camera, in which case why not?

Since he has stated he will continue to require photos his caches now have an ALR attached to them and violate Groudspeak Guidelines, so any logs he deletes for lack of a photo must be reinstated and the ALR removed. His desire to be a control freak does not give him the right to be one.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Cav Scout

1.1k · January 20, 2010

I dont ever think I will have to worry about you finding any of my ECs. For one you will have to walk to most of the ECs I own and many of them require walking uphill . That means you cannot park you car next to most of the ECs I own.

Control freak? Kinda strong words for not knowing who I am and what I'm wanting to do. My reason for asking for a photo is proof of the visit and thats all. I have allowed logs without photos several times especially for folks like yourself who cannot afford a camera or cell phone. Judging by how many finds you have Im starting to think you dont even own a GPS.

Now that you are annalizing the new rules, I can request a photo but I cannot ask for a face in the shot. Currently the old ECs circa 2009 and before are unaffected by the new rules.

Can/will the rules change? Yes. Will I comply? Yes. Until then I will suport the current rules for the new ECs and old rules for my pre 2010 ECs. I only own one new EC and it follows the new guidelines.

Listing a EC is difficult at times and making the questions difficult will more than likely turn away visitors which in turn will drop the interest in ECs all together. Its happening now. I dont see that many new ECs being published with the new system.

Someday someone will complain about an EC that requires the finder to hike a few miles and cry it's a bad idea. How dare the owner of the EC make the finder exercise...

Enjoy!

Not even close. It has now been confirmed that he cannot REQUIRE me to take a photo at his cache, therefore if I find one I will NOT take a photo, unless he provides the camera, in which case why not?

Since he has stated he will continue to require photos his caches now have an ALR attached to them and violate Groudspeak Guidelines, so any logs he deletes for lack of a photo must be reinstated and the ALR removed. His desire to be a control freak does not give him the right to be one.

My favorite vacations were the ones spent hiking the mountains. I have a photo here I took in Colorado of the Chicago lakes, 16 mile round trip at over 11,000 feet on my first day in Colorado, walking and me are old friends and I've climbed several of the hills down your way as well. I already said it was a moot point though and was content to leave it at that until your brother jumped in. Don't take it so personally when someone disagrees with you. As I stated, it was a heads up for you on the way some people view your stance who will find them. I read your question about old Earthcaches, the reply did not say you can still require a picture, they made a point of mentioning that you can REQUEST a picture.

Oh, and I own three GPS actually, an old Magellan 2000XL, a Garmin ETrex Legend and a Garmin GPSMap 60CSX that gets considerable use.

See between my job, maintaining my farm and the scarcity of caches within a reasonable driving distance and the shortage of money to waste on gas I can't spend all my time playing games, so my total numbers are lower than yours.

1.2k · January 22, 2010

I have been gone for a while and I have tried to catch up with everything. Admittedly, I am slow, but I am totally confused regarding the photo requirement or non-requirement. Before you jump on me, yes, I did read all the current threads and 'revised guidelines' on the subject and all I have for the effort is a headache and no consistent answer.

Before a friend of mine sent me this quote from his newly published cache, I thought I had deciphered the new rules. The quote, "Please make your photo requirement optional, per our new guidelines.".

As I read what GS said, geoaware said in several posts and what is published, it seems like the written guidelines haven't caught up with various interpretations . Certainly, the above quote doesn't show much of an allowance toward requiring photos.

Before my friend sent me the above referenced quote I thought is was OK to require a photo but not require specific things like faces, etc. I don't think that it is logical to call a requirement optional. If it were optional, it wouldn't be a requirement.

As I understand from other ECers, caches are being reviewed and published with a photo requirement, but some are not. Please folks, saying this discussion is over doesn't answer the question. IS ANY PHOTO ALLOWED AS A REQUIREMENT? Yes, I know that photos don't take the place of educational questions and/or tasks and I don't want to get into a discussion of what constitutes good, tough or even puny questions. Just a simple answer to the photo question is all I would love to have.

Many thanks to all....participants and observers!

Edited January 23, 2010 by Konnarock Kid & Marge

2.5k · January 24, 2010

I can't wait for the day that they start deleting your EC find because you posted a picture.

1.8k · January 24, 2010

Hmmmmmmmmm,

As a solo cacher I do have problems with placing myself in the photo. I appreciate also the difficulties of trying to get a photo shot of one's GPS'r into the shot if the primary Tupperware Finder Gizmo happens to be their picture taking gizmo as well. Yes there are affordable digital picture taking gizmos and now some Uber cheap models.

As for me I stopped rowing upstream and bought a $ 100.00 digital picture taking gizmo ... the real problem now becomes trying to quickly and effectively transfer.

( Hey I am old and slow and not techno inclined - it is my feeling that many folks have resisted the photo requirement due to a lack of funds to throw at a digital camera, we would much rather save our bucks to get a newer and spiffier GPS'r. Then there are those, like me who are techno challenged. )

1.2k · January 24, 2010

Hmmmmmmmmm,

As a solo cacher I do have problems with placing myself in the photo. I appreciate also the difficulties of trying to get a photo shot of one's GPS'r into the shot if the primary Tupperware Finder Gizmo happens to be their picture taking gizmo as well. Yes there are affordable digital picture taking gizmos and now some Uber cheap models.

As for me I stopped rowing upstream and bought a $ 100.00 digital picture taking gizmo ... the real problem now becomes trying to quickly and effectively transfer.

( Hey I am old and slow and not techno inclined - it is my feeling that many folks have resisted the photo requirement due to a lack of funds to throw at a digital camera, we would much rather save our bucks to get a newer and spiffier GPS'r. Then there are those, like me who are techno challenged. )

I also appreciate what you are saying. I too am often alone when caching. Just hold the camera in one hand at arms length and snap away. It will not win any photography contests, but it will do. Heck if someone objects having their face shown, I couldn't care less and accept any location photo.

My problem is I am not sure what the guidelines call for. As I said, a friend sent me a note that said he needed to make the photo optional and another friend pointed out that he got an EC approved with the photo requirement! It shouldn't be that hard to spell it out clearly and have the reviewers use the same approach. Like you, I 'm also old and slow and just may be missing something?

Speaking of camera's, we bought a digital camera for our 8 year old grand child for Christmas for 25 bucks. It ain't great, but it would do for caching. The biggest problem was finding a 1GB SD card. That was the limit for the camera. 2, 4, 8 and even 16GB cards were all on sale so when I found a 1GB card, it cost almost as much as the camera! Anyway, Maggie is enjoying the camera. Sorry for the deviation or as some might call it going off topic.

1.4k · January 25, 2010

If this was the early 1990"s, I probably could agree with this statement .

Hmmmmmmmmm,

As a solo cacher I do have problems with placing myself in the photo. I appreciate also the difficulties of trying to get a photo shot of one's GPS'r into the shot if the primary Tupperware Finder Gizmo happens to be their picture taking gizmo as well. Yes there are affordable digital picture taking gizmos and now some Uber cheap models.

As for me I stopped rowing upstream and bought a $ 100.00 digital picture taking gizmo ... the real problem now becomes trying to quickly and effectively transfer.

( Hey I am old and slow and not techno inclined - it is my feeling that many folks have resisted the photo requirement due to a lack of funds to throw at a digital camera, we would much rather save our bucks to get a newer and spiffier GPS'r. Then there are those, like me who are techno challenged. )

January 25, 2010

Please read the guideline - it is very clear.

Logging of an EarthCache must involve visitors undertaking some educational task that relates to the Earth science at the site. This could involve measuring or estimating the size of some feature or aspect of the site, collecting and recording data (such as time of a tidal bore), or sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the answer to Earth science related questions they obtained by reading an information display. While photographs may be requested, they do not take the place of other logging requirements. Taking a photograph alone or asking people to do internet research does NOT meet these logging guidelines. Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example) will be considered an additional logging requirement and must be optional. Cache owners may not delete the cache seeker's log based solely on optional tasks.

Edited January 25, 2010 by geoaware

1.2k · January 25, 2010

Respectfully, why would you assume that I didn't read the guidelines? I did as well as all of the posts on the subject and several notes from reviewers. Yes, the guidelines say one thing, but obviously are easily misunderstood by EC submitters and reviewers alike.

When a note is received by an EC developer like the above mentioned (make the photo optional) note and other photos are not requested to be made optional, something is not quite understood.

Look, I'm not trying to be a hard case, but it just isn't clear.

Let me try one more time. If educational questions are sufficient and everything is otherwise OK, can you require a photo if it is not specific as to faces, etc., but is site specific and certainly related to the text? When I say require I mean that the log can be deleted if said photo is not posted!

If this question is answered I absolutely swear I will never mention photos again.

Many thanks.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Konnarock Kid & Marge

1.2k · January 25, 2010

If this was the early 1990"s, I probably could agree with this statement .

This isn't the early 1990's? I already said I was old and slow!

January 25, 2010

If educational questions are sufficient and everything is otherwise OK, can you require a photo if it is not specific as to faces, etc., but is site specific and certainly related to the text? When I say require I mean that the log can be deleted if said photo is not posted!

You are correct. That is exactly what the guidelines mean.

If you are not asking for specific non-site related content you can ask for a photo.

If you ask for something in the photo that is not related to the educational logging task or the site, the photo must be optional and you can't delete a log based on the lack of photo alone.

1.2k · January 25, 2010

If educational questions are sufficient and everything is otherwise OK, can you require a photo if it is not specific as to faces, etc., but is site specific and certainly related to the text? When I say require I mean that the log can be deleted if said photo is not posted!

You are correct. That is exactly what the guidelines mean.

If you are not asking for specific non-site related content you can ask for a photo.

If you ask for something in the photo that is not related to the educational logging task or the site, the photo must be optional and you can't delete a log based on the lack of photo alone.

Thanks so much. As I said I am old and slow. I very much appreciate

you clearing it up. Keep on encouraging ECs.

January 27, 2010

While in Maryland two years ago we where at a park with a BIG waterfall. We (My brothers and I) took a picture of us in front of the falls because we thought it look nice. After we got back in Michigan we noticed there was a Earthcache right there. so we answered the questions and were right on all of them. Was it wrong to log this find?

Perfectly legit to log it. You were there and met all the requirements. Hard to believe that's the highest waterfall in Maryland though!

January 27, 2010

If educational questions are sufficient and everything is otherwise OK, can you require a photo if it is not specific as to faces, etc., but is site specific and certainly related to the text? When I say require I mean that the log can be deleted if said photo is not posted!

You are correct. That is exactly what the guidelines mean.

If you are not asking for specific non-site related content you can ask for a photo.

If you ask for something in the photo that is not related to the educational logging task or the site, the photo must be optional and you can't delete a log based on the lack of photo alone.

Thanks for clarifying the new EC requirements. I'd ask two things.

First that the new guidellines actually state that photos can be required, as long as they don't require specfic non-site related content. That is what they may mean, but they imply that any specific content can't be required. This additional clarification would help folk who have not read this thread.

Secondly, that Groundspeak actually update the requirements as listed in the Cache Listing Requirements / Guidelines page. I'm not sure where the new requrements are listed, other than in these forums, but they are not on the Groundspeak requirements page.

Edited January 27, 2010 by DudleyGrunt

January 27, 2010

I'm not sure where the new requrements are listed, other than in these forums, but they are not on the Groundspeak requirements page.

The listing requirements are on the EarthCache website, here.

Hope this helps!

1.4k · January 28, 2010

Are they updated to reflect whats been mentioned in this thread? I dont see any changes.

I'm not sure where the new requrements are listed, other than in these forums, but they are not on the Groundspeak requirements page.

The listing requirements are on the EarthCache website, here.

Hope this helps!

1.4k · January 28, 2010

Can this be quantified in the current guidelines?

If educational questions are sufficient and everything is otherwise OK, can you require a photo if it is not specific as to faces, etc., but is site specific and certainly related to the text? When I say require I mean that the log can be deleted if said photo is not posted!

You are correct. That is exactly what the guidelines mean.

If you are not asking for specific non-site related content you can ask for a photo.

If you ask for something in the photo that is not related to the educational logging task or the site, the photo must be optional and you can't delete a log based on the lack of photo alone.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Cav Scout

1.2k · January 28, 2010

Logging tasks are poor if (and this is not an exhaustive list) :

1. They can be answered by doing an internet search or using Google Earth

2. They are reading a simple fact from a sign and not involving the participant in thinking

3. They are not related to the topic covered in the text

4. They are taking a measurement that is not related to the text

The whole reason we have a logging task is, in a way, for you to test the people that visit your EC if they have learned from the experience. That whole objective of EC if for people to learn, rather than just to drop in an admire the view (which may also be a wonderful thing, but not the main objective). I understand that people want a WOW factor and, for EC, the WOW should be in the learning! Your logging task is your proof that they have both visited AND learned something. With a strong set of logging tasks, the photo task is purely secondary and should be treated as such. And, as the guidelines say, if you require people to have specific content not related to the lesson or site, then the photo must be optional.

I think the original question for this topic has now been well and truly explained. Thanks for all your comments and I hope you can all move forward within the new guidelines.

Taken for face value (and no…no pun intended)…that is not what the guidelines say…pure and simple…they say “Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example) will be considered an additional logging requirement and must be optional.”

Logging of an EarthCache must involve visitors undertaking some educational task that relates to the Earth science at the site. This could involve measuring or estimating the size of some feature or aspect of the site, collecting and recording data (such as time of a tidal bore), or sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the answer to Earth science related questions they obtained by reading an information display. While photographs may be requested, they do not take the place of other logging requirements. Taking a photograph alone or asking people to do internet research does NOT meet these logging guidelines. Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example) will be considered an additional logging requirement and must be optional. Cache owners may not delete the cache seeker's log based solely on optional tasks.

It doesn’t say “specific content not related to the lesson or site”…until this all gets clarified in the guidelines themselves (an less open to personal interpretation)…this is going to be an issue for a long time…

1.2k · January 28, 2010

If educational questions are sufficient and everything is otherwise OK, can you require a photo if it is not specific as to faces, etc., but is site specific and certainly related to the text? When I say require I mean that the log can be deleted if said photo is not posted!

You are correct. That is exactly what the guidelines mean.

If you are not asking for specific non-site related content you can ask for a photo.

If you ask for something in the photo that is not related to the educational logging task or the site, the photo must be optional and you can't delete a log based on the lack of photo alone.

Good grief Charlie Brown, I can't believe I'm quoting myself! If that isn't the height of narcissism, nothing is!

Well here goes, maybe all of the guidelines and written interpretations will not be changed, but everyone (ECers and reviewers alike) ought to cut and paste the above quotes and put them in a file for future reference!

As I promised, I would not use the p---- word and I will not, but this is what I am going by!

1.2k · January 28, 2010

If educational questions are sufficient and everything is otherwise OK, can you require a photo if it is not specific as to faces, etc., but is site specific and certainly related to the text? When I say require I mean that the log can be deleted if said photo is not posted!

You are correct. That is exactly what the guidelines mean.

If you are not asking for specific non-site related content you can ask for a photo.

If you ask for something in the photo that is not related to the educational logging task or the site, the photo must be optional and you can't delete a log based on the lack of photo alone.

Good grief Charlie Brown, I can't believe I'm quoting myself! If that isn't the height of narcissism, nothing is!

Well here goes, maybe all of the guidelines and written interpretations will not be changed, but everyone (ECers and reviewers alike) ought to cut and paste the above quotes and put them in a file for future reference!

As I promised, I would not use the p---- word and I will not, but this is what I am going by!

Even better...would be if the guideline was written that way...instead of being interpreted that way...if it is infact that "clear"...than just write it that way in the guidelines...sheesh...

2k · March 6, 2010

OK, I'm still confused. Is the prohibition for requiring pictures of faces for all Earthcaches or just new ones? If a log is deleted, is there any real recourse?

I will be passing an Earthcache soon which says:

Do not log this EC unless you have answered the questions and have a picture ready to post! Logs with no photo of the actual cacher ( human face included) logging the find or failure to answer questions or negative comments will result in a log deletion without notice.

My current feeling is it's not worth the hassle and just keep driving.

Edited March 6, 2010 by beejay&esskay

March 9, 2010

I will be passing an Earthcache soon which says:

Do not log this EC unless you have answered the questions and have a picture ready to post! Logs with no photo of the actual cacher ( human face included) logging the find or failure to answer questions or negative comments will result in a log deletion without notice.

It will be interesting to see if your earthcache gets approved with that statement. It would seem a photo of the actual cacher (human face included) is an additional logging requirement.

"While photographs may be requested, they do not take the place of other logging requirements. Taking a photograph alone or asking people to do internet research does NOT meet these logging guidelines. Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example) will be considered an additional logging requirement and must be optional. Cache owners may not delete the cache seeker's log based solely on optional tasks."

My recently published earthcache, which had no problems with getting published, had the following as the last "requirement":

"Request, but not a requirement (and can be helpful if any answers for above question are incorrect): for additional verification to avoid armchair logs, please include with your online log a photo of your group with GPS at the cache location."

I try to develop an earthcache where a cacher cannot simply conduct an Internet search and get the answers - the cache requires a correlation of information and observation of physical features. Can cachers "phone a friend" for an answer? Sure, I suppose - but generally I think these are fairly easy to tell in the answers. Often, I know from the "wrong" answers that someone has been to the site. So, a photo simply gives a cacher a chance - an ease their mind about wrong answers - to provide some "other" proof.

1.2k · March 9, 2010

This is what we are going by as to photos and EarthCaches. As far as we are concerned, this was the 'final answer' regarding the photo requirement question. If in doubt, we will quote it to posters and reviewers alike!

"If educational questions are sufficient and everything is otherwise OK, can you require a photo if it is not specific as to faces, etc., but is site specific and certainly related to the text? When I say require I mean that the log can be deleted if said photo is not posted!"

asked by Konnarock Kid & Marge

"You are correct. That is exactly what the guidelines mean.

If you are not asking for specific non-site related content you can ask for a photo.

If you ask for something in the photo that is not related to the educational logging task or the site, the photo must be optional and you can't delete a log based on the lack of photo alone."

answered by Geoaware

For the record, the above exchange can be read in its original on the thread entitled, "Requiring photos to log an EarthCache, Guideline change"---Post 69!

March 11, 2010

How about this:

If you post a voluntary photo of you at the cache site with your face shown, any incorrect answers to the questions will be forgiven and you log will be allowed to remain.

7k · March 11, 2010

How about this:

If you post a voluntary photo of you at the cache site with your face shown, any incorrect answers to the questions will be forgiven and you log will be allowed to remain.

and if you perform a phoon in the photo you're allowed not to submit any answers at all?

March 11, 2010

How about this:

If you post a voluntary photo of you at the cache site with your face shown, any incorrect answers to the questions will be forgiven and you log will be allowed to remain.

and if you perform a phoon in the photo you're allowed not to submit any answers at all?

Hey, I like that idea. Bet Geoware wouldn't think very highly of it though.

Requiring photos to log an Earthcache

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