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firennice

Requiring photos to log an Earthcache

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I felt this deserved its own thread.

 

The new Earthcache guidelines state that a photo with a person in it cannot be required.

 

I have to say that this is a HORRIBLE idea, and a step in the wrong direction for eartcaching. I totally agree that there should be a series of answers to log a cache. However at some point those answers get out into the community, then anyone and everyone can log the earthcache from wherever they are.

 

The only way to prevent someone from logging while they are sitting in a couch 12000 miles away is by asking for both. If I cannot do that as an earthcache owner, like the people that are fighting off bogus loggers on V Virtuals you have tied my hands, and opened the door for problems down the road.

 

Please, please, please, allow me to require a photo so I can quickly and easily prove if someone is cheating.

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I felt this deserved its own thread.

 

The new Earthcache guidelines state that a photo with a person in it cannot be required.

 

I have to say that this is a HORRIBLE idea, and a step in the wrong direction for eartcaching. I totally agree that there should be a series of answers to log a cache. However at some point those answers get out into the community, then anyone and everyone can log the earthcache from wherever they are.

 

The only way to prevent someone from logging while they are sitting in a couch 12000 miles away is by asking for both. If I cannot do that as an earthcache owner, like the people that are fighting off bogus loggers on V Virtuals you have tied my hands, and opened the door for problems down the road.

 

Please, please, please, allow me to require a photo so I can quickly and easily prove if someone is cheating.

 

It probably does deserve it's own topic. Like this one entitled "Why are pictures needed?, a gripe found just a wee bit down the page a bit. A hot topic, even.

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The new Earthcache guidelines state that a photo with a person in it cannot be required.

 

I have to say that this is a HORRIBLE idea, and a step in the wrong direction for eartcaching. I totally agree that there should be a series of answers to log a cache. However at some point those answers get out into the community, then anyone and everyone can log the earthcache from wherever they are.

 

The only way to prevent someone from logging while they are sitting in a couch 12000 miles away is by asking for both. If I cannot do that as an earthcache owner, like the people that are fighting off bogus loggers on V Virtuals you have tied my hands, and opened the door for problems down the road.

 

Please, please, please, allow me to require a photo so I can quickly and easily prove if someone is cheating.

 

The concern about couch potato logging is a valid one, but something that our specialized EarthCache Reviewers are highly aware of when reviewing EarthCaches.

 

We do not in any way want people to log EarthCaches without actually having been to the cache location. To curtail this behavior, EarthCache owners must create logging tasks that *require* the person to be at the cache site.

 

The logging requirements must be educationally and geologically-based, and the cache owner should be able to determine from the response to the task(s) whether or not a cacher was actually at the site.

 

The specialized Reviewers are asking cache owners with logging tasks that are not stringent enough to change their cache submission.

 

Photographs will remain an option when logging EarthCaches.

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Am I not reading the part about whats preventing the answers from being passed around.

 

I did a 10 question eathcache before and it was a pain. I saved the answers and I still have them, theres nothing but integrity from having me pass them on to someone who wants a easy find without ever being to the site.

 

 

The concern about couch potato logging is a valid one, but something that our specialized EarthCache Reviewers are highly aware of when reviewing EarthCaches.

 

We do not in any way want people to log EarthCaches without actually having been to the cache location. To curtail this behavior, EarthCache owners must create logging tasks that *require* the person to be at the cache site.

 

The logging requirements must be educationally and geologically-based, and the cache owner should be able to determine from the response to the task(s) whether or not a cacher was actually at the site.

 

The specialized Reviewers are asking cache owners with logging tasks that are not stringent enough to change their cache submission.

 

Photographs will remain an option when logging EarthCaches.

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There is no question that you could ask short of one where the answer changes throughout the day that someone needs to visit a location to get the answer . Cacher A visits and tells B C and D the answers...bingo 4 loggers one visit.

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I'm not going to name the cachers however, there was a rash of them who were doing what Cav Scout and LostBy7 were stating. They were passing around the answers to EarthCaches and basically logging them and never leaving home. Once one cacher fulfills the requirements for an EarthCache then anyone can log it if they start passing around the answers. Only way to stop/police this is with the photo of the cacher at the location.

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I have only created three Earthcaches to date - two of which are in very remote locations and as such are 5/5 ECs. I recently completed a 5/5 EC myself in Malaysia, GC19A54 - The Pinnacles, and definitive proof is in the photo that I provided.

 

Of the questions you have to answer – well let’s just say there are other ways to find the answers. If someone were to determine these answers either through their own ingenuity or by getting them from a previous visitor to the EC, then what's to stop them from logging an “armchair” find if they don't have to provide a photo of themself at the EC? The definitive proof that everyone who logged a visit on this EC is their photo with them in it.

 

Now I’m biased and am going to sound conceited here because I don’t know of any of my fellow caching friends that have logged a 5/5 EC but many of them have logged other 5/5 cache types. While I had to work extremely hard to actually get to this EC site, I consider myself to be very fortunate to have had the opportunity to do so.

 

I have followed the debate about photos only being an optional requirement and have come to the following conclusions:

 

1) A photo is not merely an additional logging requirement – we don’t require cachers to wear goofy hats – we require proof of their physical visit to the EC. Answers to questions can be passed around or even found through other sources if the individual is determined enough,

 

2) A photo of an individual at an EC is equivalent to a signed log at a regular cache and is positive proof of the visit to the EC,

 

3) Simply answering questions does not prevent armchair logging of EC’s and there is no way a CO can delete a log if the answers are correct but have reason to believe some is engaging in unethical behaviour,

 

4) If photos of EC visitors are to be optional only requirements, then I will probably wind up archiving my EC’s not out of spite, but because they will lose their value to the individuals who truly make the effort to visit them.

 

Just my opinion and I’m sure not everyone shares it.

Edited by entogeek

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I have only created three Earthcaches to date - two of which are in very remote locations and as such are 5/5 ECs. I recently completed a 5/5 EC myself in Malaysia, GC19A54 - The Pinnacles, and definitive proof is in the photo that I provided.

 

Of the questions you have to answer – well let’s just say there are other ways to find the answers. If someone were to determine these answers either through their own ingenuity or by getting them from a previous visitor to the EC, then what's to stop them from logging an “armchair” find if they don't have to provide a photo of themself at the EC? The definitive proof that everyone who logged a visit on this EC is their photo with them in it.

 

Now I’m biased and am going to sound conceited here because I don’t know of any of my fellow caching friends that have logged a 5/5 EC but many of them have logged other 5/5 cache types. While I had to work extremely hard to actually get to this EC site, I consider myself to be very fortunate to have had the opportunity to do so.

 

I have followed the debate about photos only being an optional requirement and have come to the following conclusions:

 

1) A photo is not merely an additional logging requirement – we don’t require cachers to wear goofy hats – we require proof of their physical visit to the EC. Answers to questions can be passed around or even found through other sources if the individual is determined enough,

 

2) A photo of an individual at an EC is equivalent to a signed log at a regular cache and is positive proof of the visit to the EC,

 

3) Simply answering questions does not prevent armchair logging of EC’s and there is no way a CO can delete a log if the answers are correct but have reason to believe some is engaging in unethical behaviour,

 

4) If photos of EC visitors are to be optional only requirements, then I will probably wind up archiving my EC’s not out of spite, but because they will lose their value to the individuals who truly make the effort to visit them.

 

Just my opinion and I’m sure not everyone shares it.

 

"Just my opinion and I’m sure not everyone shares it."

For what its worth, I share it. Yes, there has been heated arguments on this topic but if anyone counted( I did) the vast majority of earthcachers want a photo requirement. Pseudo requirement? Where did that come from? Is someone saying photos are phony? I have never heard anybody claim that the pic should be the only logging requirement.

Answers get traded and shared. Yep, pics can be changed just like some said the 1st moon pics were doctored, but its dadgum hard and handing out them answers is easy!

Bad policy and terrible for earthcaching. Personally, I'll trade back the fast system for the old with the pictures. Lord onl;y knows the trouble I have had getting approvals so faster nos isn't that great.

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My question to TPTB: Why not? If the photo is one of a handful of requirements, why not? Individual owners could make exceptions if a case was made by the cacher logging the cache.

 

To say it is specialized equipment and a burden for the cacher logging the cache is fallacy (one of the arguments I have heard in the past). More cachers have cameras than GPSrs that can run Wherigos. My cache bag is full of thermometers, measuring tapes, test strips, and even a hydrometer.

 

I see the photo as the equivalent of the cache log. Isn't the only required part of a cache the log book? Why is a log book required?

 

I also understand that an EC with a photo requirement could have the answers passed on, but the picture could be proof of the visit.

 

BTW, I have seen an EC log with a Photoshopped picture.

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I sit here still trying to make sense of all of this. EC are my favorite cache to find and I've never hid one yet. I had started working on getting permission from different individuals for the placement of EC in my area in the fall of 09. I had been looking around and had logged some of CavScout's EC back in March of 09 and really liked how he had them set up. I knew CavScout had a ton of EC hides, so the day after Thanksgiving me and my daughter made the 450 mile drive up to where CavScout is located for an EC run. I wanted to "experience" other types of EC that I had not done in the past. I talked to CavScout on the phone many times and he was always very helpful and offered his help if I needed it in developing new EC.

 

The trip was mainly to make sure that when I started submitting EC I wouldn't be going at it half-cocked and just make a big mess out of an EC listing. I knew that the old service was going be shut down at the end of November, so I decided to wait till the new one was online.

 

Yesterday I notice Gc is down and call CavScout and tell him and not 30 minutes after I hang up the phone he calls me back and says the new system is online. I'm thinking now I can get the ball back rolling and start sending EC in.

 

Then I get home last night and find out that a picture can not be required? :lol: You gotta be kidding, right? I mean whats the point of getting excited, working your tail off getting permission, working the listing up, then going back and forth to get it published, only for it to be logged by anyone without even being on site.

 

There's no container and a picture is so simple.

 

I sure wish the powers that be would seriously reconsider the picture option and let the owner decide if he/she wants to make it a requirement.

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A fellow cacher has just suggested that maybe the issue with requiring photos has to do with privacy concerns. Okay, if that's the case then I can appreciate it. As my friend said, why not require a photo of the individual's GPS with the co-ordinates showing on it? Makes good sense to me.

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I'm not going to name the cachers however, there was a rash of them who were doing what Cav Scout and LostBy7 were stating. They were passing around the answers to EarthCaches and basically logging them and never leaving home. Once one cacher fulfills the requirements for an EarthCache then anyone can log it if they start passing around the answers. Only way to stop/police this is with the photo of the cacher at the location.

 

While I'm still a tadpole (only four earthcaches under my belt) here's my tuppence worth.

 

Those that want to cheat will find a way. Photoshopping yourself into a picture is not that hard.

 

And so what if people do cheat anyway. Who loses? Only the cheaters themselves in missing out on visiting the site.

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I'm not going to name the cachers however, there was a rash of them who were doing what Cav Scout and LostBy7 were stating. They were passing around the answers to EarthCaches and basically logging them and never leaving home. Once one cacher fulfills the requirements for an EarthCache then anyone can log it if they start passing around the answers. Only way to stop/police this is with the photo of the cacher at the location.

 

While I'm still a tadpole (only four earthcaches under my belt) here's my tuppence worth.

 

Those that want to cheat will find a way. Photoshopping yourself into a picture is not that hard.

 

And so what if people do cheat anyway. Who loses? Only the cheaters themselves in missing out on visiting the site.

Of the 30 listings I put together I'd say I have 300 or more hours invested in the writing and development of my ECs...someone who cheats a log is essentially slapping me in the face in addition to disrespecting all the people (their peers) who made a legitimate find.

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A fellow cacher has just suggested that maybe the issue with requiring photos has to do with privacy concerns.

 

That's indeed a valid concern and I do share it. Those Earth cachers who insisted in the past on specific photographs, e.g. ones where the face of the cacher can be seen or is even recognizable, are the ones that have to be blamed. Note that typically it not sufficient to send such a photo to the Earth cache owner, many owners insist even on an upload of such very personal photos to the gc.com page. (It's a bit like it had been for some webcam caches.)

 

As my friend said, why not require a photo of the individual's GPS with the co-ordinates showing on it? Makes good sense to me.

 

I am pretty much sure if only photo requirements of this type and of a similar type existed, the number of complaints about the photo requirements would be much smaller and there would not have been the motivation for trying to change the formulation of the guideline which regards the photo requirement.

 

In any case, I feel that it is better when listing the logging conditions for an Earth cache to start with the geology related questions and not with the photo requirement. The photo requirement is helpful to increase the work to be done by someone who wants to cheat, but it is not at the centre of an Earth cache. Some Earth caches, however, convey the feeling to me that it's the uploaded photo which is the most important part.

 

 

Cezanne

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I'd suggest that those who lose are the ones who take the time and effort to properly visit and log the Earthcache.

Edited by entogeek

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I agree and can go with the GPS and hand only if that is what it takes to validate the visit.

 

Enforcing questions to prove someone was really there is not bomb proof. We all know what can happen with that.

 

If I'm expected to get permission and get a secret security clearance for setting up a earthcache, then why can't I keep the standards high in regards to how I justify who really visited my EC.

 

I've been told by geoaware its just a game, but holy moly, hes very strict on us when getting a EC approved...

 

Come on geoaware, we need support here. We keep you busy with our submissions and bring smiles to finders who visit our sites. Stand behind those who keep the program going.

 

A fellow cacher has just suggested that maybe the issue with requiring photos has to do with privacy concerns. Okay, if that's the case then I can appreciate it. As my friend said, why not require a photo of the individual's GPS with the co-ordinates showing on it? Makes good sense to me.

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Just so everyone is very clear on this issue. The guideline reads :

 

Logging of an EarthCache must involve visitors undertaking some educational task that relates to the Earth science at the site. This could involve measuring or estimating the size of some feature or aspect of the site, collecting and recording data (such as time of a tidal bore), or sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the answer to Earth science related questions they obtained by reading an information display. While photographs may be requested, they do not take the place of other logging requirements. Taking a photograph alone or asking people to do internet research does NOT meet these logging guidelines. Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example) will be considered an additional logging requirement and must be optional. Cache owners may not delete the cache seeker's log based solely on optional tasks.

 

So you MAY request a photograph but it can't take the place of a good on-site logging task. If your logging tasks are poor, we will ask you to strengthen them before your EC is published.

 

If you want specific content in the photograph then the photograph has to be optional. We will insist that you make these optional before we publish.

 

So please feel free to ask people to submit photographs once you have developed great logging tasks that people can only do on-site!

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So the way I read the guidelines....

 

You can:

Require site-specific questions be answered. After the site-specific questions are listed on the page you can also require that a picture be taken at the site. If the questions are wrong or not answered you may delete the find. Also the lack of a picture (weather the questions are answered correctly or not) is a grounds for deletion of the log.

 

You cannot:

Ask for a picture alone or as the main logging requirement or require a specific picture...in other words I can ask for a picture at the site (in addition to the site specific questions) but not a picture of your face while you are doing a handstand at the site.

 

Is this correct?

Edited by Lostby7

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I am wondering the same thing.

 

I request questions to be answered.

 

I request a photo to show proof of visit.

 

Can I delete a find if the finder doesn't meet both requirement?

 

If this is the case my EC will show this... At least in the order requested.

 

So the way I read the guidelines....

 

You can:

Require site-specific questions be answered. After the site-specific questions are listed on the page you can also require that a picture be taken at the site. If the questions are wrong or not answered you may delete the find. Also the lack of a picture (weather the questions are answered correctly or not) is a grounds for deletion of the log.

 

You cannot:

Ask for a picture alone or as the main logging requirement or require a specific picture...in other words I can ask for a picture at the site but not a picture of your face while you are doing a handstand at the site.

 

Is this correct?

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So the way I read the guidelines....

 

You can:

Require site-specific questions be answered. After the site-specific questions are listed on the page you can also require that a picture be taken at the site. If the questions are wrong or not answered you may delete the find. Also the lack of a picture (weather the questions are answered correctly or not) is a grounds for deletion of the log.

 

You cannot:

Ask for a picture alone or as the main logging requirement or require a specific picture...in other words I can ask for a picture at the site but not a picture of your face while you are doing a handstand at the site.

 

Is this correct?

 

You are correct! :P

 

Note however that your site-specific questions will need to be strong. The photo requirement must be made after the questions. They can't be questions answered by an internet search or using online tools (such as Google Earth).

Edited by geoaware

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So the way I read the guidelines....

 

You can:

Require site-specific questions be answered. After the site-specific questions are listed on the page you can also require that a picture be taken at the site. If the questions are wrong or not answered you may delete the find. Also the lack of a picture (weather the questions are answered correctly or not) is a grounds for deletion of the log.

 

You cannot:

Ask for a picture alone or as the main logging requirement or require a specific picture...in other words I can ask for a picture at the site but not a picture of your face while you are doing a handstand at the site.

 

Is this correct?

 

You are correct! :P

 

Note however that your site-specific questions will need to be strong. The photo requirement must be made after the questions. They can't be questions answered by an internet search or using online tools (such as Google Earth).

OK then I have no problems....looks like no real change (aside from making the picture requirement a little less specific)!

Thanks! :)

Edited by Lostby7

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So the way I read the guidelines....

 

You can:

Require site-specific questions be answered. After the site-specific questions are listed on the page you can also require that a picture be taken at the site. If the questions are wrong or not answered you may delete the find. Also the lack of a picture (weather the questions are answered correctly or not) is a grounds for deletion of the log.

 

You cannot:

Ask for a picture alone or as the main logging requirement or require a specific picture...in other words I can ask for a picture at the site but not a picture of your face while you are doing a handstand at the site.

 

Is this correct?

 

You are correct! :P

 

Note however that your site-specific questions will need to be strong. The photo requirement must be made after the questions. They can't be questions answered by an internet search or using online tools (such as Google Earth).

OK then I have no problems....looks like no real change!!! Thanks! :)

If you have strong logging tasks, then there is effectively no change. :)

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So the way I read the guidelines....

 

You can:

Require site-specific questions be answered. After the site-specific questions are listed on the page you can also require that a picture be taken at the site. If the questions are wrong or not answered you may delete the find. Also the lack of a picture (weather the questions are answered correctly or not) is a grounds for deletion of the log.

 

You cannot:

Ask for a picture alone or as the main logging requirement or require a specific picture...in other words I can ask for a picture at the site but not a picture of your face while you are doing a handstand at the site.

 

Is this correct?

 

You are correct! :P

 

Note however that your site-specific questions will need to be strong. The photo requirement must be made after the questions. They can't be questions answered by an internet search or using online tools (such as Google Earth).

 

AAAAHHH - all makes sense now, UNLESS I am up the wrong tree here. In summary, as long as a photograph is not the SOLE requirement then you may ask for it. That is the way I understand it.

 

As an aside, I often ask for some or other description of what a person can see at a certain bearing [compass] or waypoint. If they answer that incorrectly then I am pretty sure they were not at the site.

 

geoaware - keep up the great work that you guys are doing. You rock!! :)

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Just so everyone is very clear on this issue. The guideline reads :

 

Logging of an EarthCache must involve visitors undertaking some educational task that relates to the Earth science at the site. This could involve measuring or estimating the size of some feature or aspect of the site, collecting and recording data (such as time of a tidal bore), or sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the answer to Earth science related questions they obtained by reading an information display. While photographs may be requested, they do not take the place of other logging requirements. Taking a photograph alone or asking people to do internet research does NOT meet these logging guidelines. Requests for specific content in the photograph (must include the visitor's face, for example) will be considered an additional logging requirement and must be optional. Cache owners may not delete the cache seeker's log based solely on optional tasks.

 

 

I wonder if they haven't updated all the wording yet. When I go to the guidelines EarthCaches it states:

 

Logging an EarthCache find requires compliance with the requirements stated by the owner and the EarthCache website, including answering the required questions by email to the owner, providing original photos if so requested, etc.

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So the way I read the guidelines....

 

You can:

Require site-specific questions be answered. After the site-specific questions are listed on the page you can also require that a picture be taken at the site. If the questions are wrong or not answered you may delete the find. Also the lack of a picture (weather the questions are answered correctly or not) is a grounds for deletion of the log.

 

You cannot:

Ask for a picture alone or as the main logging requirement or require a specific picture...in other words I can ask for a picture at the site but not a picture of your face while you are doing a handstand at the site.

 

Is this correct?

 

You are correct! :P

 

Note however that your site-specific questions will need to be strong. The photo requirement must be made after the questions. They can't be questions answered by an internet search or using online tools (such as Google Earth).

 

AAAAHHH - all makes sense now, UNLESS I am up the wrong tree here. In summary, as long as a photograph is not the SOLE requirement then you may ask for it. That is the way I understand it.

 

As an aside, I often ask for some or other description of what a person can see at a certain bearing [compass] or waypoint. If they answer that incorrectly then I am pretty sure they were not at the site.

 

geoaware - keep up the great work that you guys are doing. You rock!! :)

 

The photograph can't replace a strong logging task. Basically if you need a photograph to prove a person was at your EC, then your logging task may not be strong enough!

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Good golly people now I am really mixed up. The Groundspeak person said "Photographs will remain an option when logging EarthCaches" and some of the cahers said they needed to remove a requirement for a pictur before there new earthcache would get published. The new guideline sorta reads that photos can only be "optional' and not required

Now, it is ok to require a picture if you also have good tuff questions that come first?

This thing is hard to follow.

Is this right or allowed?

1. required: good quesations that could only be answered at the earthcache

2. required: (if you want to) a photo taken by the person at the cache place.

A simple yes to both 1 and 2 will help this simple mind geta handle on this.

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Good golly people now I am really mixed up. The Groundspeak person said "Photographs will remain an option when logging EarthCaches" and some of the cahers said they needed to remove a requirement for a pictur before there new earthcache would get published. The new guideline sorta reads that photos can only be "optional' and not required

Now, it is ok to require a picture if you also have good tuff questions that come first?

This thing is hard to follow.

Is this right or allowed?

1. required: good quesations that could only be answered at the earthcache

2. required: (if you want to) a photo taken by the person at the cache place.

A simple yes to both 1 and 2 will help this simple mind geta handle on this.

 

1. YES!!!!

2. Yes - but if you request any specific content (like a persons face), then the photo can only be optional!

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Thank you!!!!!!!!!! You have answered my question :P:):)

 

Good golly people now I am really mixed up. The Groundspeak person said "Photographs will remain an option when logging EarthCaches" and some of the cahers said they needed to remove a requirement for a pictur before there new earthcache would get published. The new guideline sorta reads that photos can only be "optional' and not required

Now, it is ok to require a picture if you also have good tuff questions that come first?

This thing is hard to follow.

Is this right or allowed?

1. required: good quesations that could only be answered at the earthcache

2. required: (if you want to) a photo taken by the person at the cache place.

A simple yes to both 1 and 2 will help this simple mind geta handle on this.

 

1. YES!!!!

2. Yes - but if you request any specific content (like a persons face), then the photo can only be optional!

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The concern about couch potato logging is a valid one, but something that our specialized EarthCache Reviewers are highly aware of when reviewing EarthCaches.

 

We do not in any way want people to log EarthCaches without actually having been to the cache location. To curtail this behavior, EarthCache owners must create logging tasks that *require* the person to be at the cache site.

 

The logging requirements must be educationally and geologically-based, and the cache owner should be able to determine from the response to the task(s) whether or not a cacher was actually at the site.

 

The specialized Reviewers are asking cache owners with logging tasks that are not stringent enough to change their cache submission.

 

Photographs will remain an option when logging EarthCaches.

 

Good golly people now I am really mixed up. The Groundspeak person said "Photographs will remain an option when logging EarthCaches" and some of the cahers said they needed to remove a requirement for a pictur before there new earthcache would get published. The new guideline sorta reads that photos can only be "optional' and not required

Now, it is ok to require a picture if you also have good tuff questions that come first?

This thing is hard to follow.

Is this right or allowed?

1. required: good quesations that could only be answered at the earthcache

2. required: (if you want to) a photo taken by the person at the cache place.

A simple yes to both 1 and 2 will help this simple mind geta handle on this.

 

1. YES!!!!

2. Yes - but if you request any specific content (like a persons face), then the photo can only be optional!

In a way...both seem to contridict eachother...

 

One states that photos are entirely option (by the finder)...while the other states an owner can require a photo in order to keep a find on an earthcache...

 

Keeping in mind...from what I understand...all the cache owner can say is that "A photo at the cache site is required in order to keep me from deleting your find"...while, for the moment, assuming the questions are strong enough to pass the review...

 

In otherwords...I could just take a photo of a stone on the ground and include it with my log (given my answes are correct) and the cache owner cannot delete my find...

 

But, the moment the Cache Owner adds..."the photo must include..." cause that photo requirement to be null and void...thus, just an option...

 

Am I correct??? There are so many if's, and's, but's...or's...about this photo thing that it is going to get messing and convoluted...not that it hasn't already....

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In otherwords...I could just take a photo of a stone on the ground and include it with my log (given my answes are correct) and the cache owner cannot delete my find...

 

But, the moment the Cache Owner adds..."the photo must include..." cause that photo requirement to be null and void...thus, just an option...

 

Am I correct??? There are so many if's, and's, but's...or's...about this photo thing that it is going to get messing and convoluted...not that it hasn't already....

..by the letter of the law true, but I think the reviewer will allow a bit of latitude as you can't photograph nothing.

 

I would phase the logging Requirement, "Take and upload with your log an image taken at a recognizable location at the site which offers clear visual proof of your visit."

Edited by Lostby7

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I have done several Earthcaches where the cache owner asked cachers to photograph fossils and then identify them. Under these new guidelines, it seems like that would now be an "optional" task, even though it's a very good way to get people engaged and learning about fossils.

 

I have seen other Earthcaches that required cachers to bring a thermometer, a bucket, or other kinds of equipment in order to complete tasks and measurements. If taking a photograph at an Earthcache site is one of the educational requirements, then the onus should be on the cacher to go to the site prepared to fulfill that requirement.

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In otherwords...I could just take a photo of a stone on the ground and include it with my log (given my answes are correct) and the cache owner cannot delete my find...

 

But, the moment the Cache Owner adds..."the photo must include..." cause that photo requirement to be null and void...thus, just an option...

 

Am I correct??? There are so many if's, and's, but's...or's...about this photo thing that it is going to get messing and convoluted...not that it hasn't already....

..by the letter of the law true, but I think the reviewer will allow a bit of latitude as you can't photograph nothing.

 

I would phase the logging Requirement, "Take and upload with your log an image taken at a recognizable location at the site which offers clear proof of your visit."

Personally, I have nothing against the photo requirement the way you wrote it...seems perfectly legit...just asking in terms of those that don't visit these forums much to see the "background" behind decisions and interpretations...

 

As stance by Groundspeak one way...and Geoaware the other way...would only cause cachers...and mainly the finders...to be caught in the middle...

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Personally, I have nothing against the photo requirement the way you wrote it...seems perfectly legit...just asking in terms of those that don't visit these forums much to see the "background" behind decisions and interpretations...

 

As stance by Groundspeak one way...and Geoaware the other way...would only cause cachers...and mainly the finders...to be caught in the middle...

Agreed, everyone: EC writers, the reviewers, Geoaware and the eventual finders need to get on the same page. Perhaps a slight redraft of the guidelines are in order to clarify the situation...and making sure that everyone particularity the reviewers are understanding the ruling.

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I have done several Earthcaches where the cache owner asked cachers to photograph fossils and then identify them. Under these new guidelines, it seems like that would now be an "optional" task, even though it's a very good way to get people engaged and learning about fossils.

 

Not necessarily as such a requirement rather belongs to the first group of requirements which are are geology related. These requirements just need to be strong enough and educational in nature so that the reviewer is satisfied with them.

 

While I am against mandatory photographs which cause privacy issues, I personall think that photographs of the type you mention above are a good idea and are instructional. (The pity is just that no such Earth cache is within my reach - at the places in my area where one might find fossils, access is forbidden.)

 

Cezanne

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Personally, I have nothing against the photo requirement the way you wrote it...seems perfectly legit...just asking in terms of those that don't visit these forums much to see the "background" behind decisions and interpretations...

 

As stance by Groundspeak one way...and Geoaware the other way...would only cause cachers...and mainly the finders...to be caught in the middle...

Agreed, everyone: EC writers, the reviewers, Geoaware and the eventual finders need to get on the same page. Perhaps a slight redraft of the guidelines are in order to clarify the situation...and making sure that everyone particularity the reviewers are understanding the ruling.

Ain't that the truth!!!!!!!!!!

Different words from different folks. Just when I thought the 1. yes, 2. yes answers would end the comotion, now you fellers have it all muddied up. I give up!

I'll tell ya this, those people at Groundspeak, geoaware and the reviewers ain't singing the same song! I think I'll go back to nice safe micros.

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Of the 30 listings I put together I'd say I have 300 or more hours invested in the writing and development of my ECs...someone who cheats a log is essentially slapping me in the face in addition to disrespecting all the people (their peers) who made a legitimate find.

 

I think the cheaters are only slapping you in the face if you let them. If you look at it the right way they are hitting themselves in the face.

 

As to the cachers, I think that a person setting a cache has up to three types of "customer". First there are the "seekers"; those that are in the game for the hunt and in the case of ECs the learning experience and more importantly the physical experience of the geological feature. Then there's the "counters" whose primary motive is cutting another notch in their belt. The third customer, the "cheater" is really just a dishonest subset of the "counters".

 

We're probably all guilty of the hubris of counting (I was quick to stick the Bronze on my profile) but I believe that most cachers are in it for the hunt and would have the attitude "more fool them" for the cheaters. The seekers don't lose anything in their experience of finding the cache. The only cachers who might lose out are the counters who, arguably, have their effort lessened. But, I venture, might not the counters be equally giving you a smack around the chops as they snap their photo and race back to the car to race back to the PC to log their find? (Forgetting or totally ignoring whatever you've taken them there for).

Edited by Huntleigh

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To me it's all not clear.

 

Is a "hard" photo requirement ok if it's not requiring faces and/or other parts of the finders' bodies on it? Yes or no?

When reading previous posts - and answers from geoaware - I read this here and that there...

 

Creating ECs is hard work* (for me). I have only made one so far and I find it a pity if people didn't have to prove that they have been there. And I'm not asking for a picture only - it's just one out of several tasks/questions to answer.

 

I have been there to create it - so I think people should be able to prove they've been there as well.

The rest has been said before.

 

To me the picture in an EC is what signing the logbook is in a Traditional/Multi/... cache.

 

Thanks

 

geowas

 

* but fun!

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"Photograph requests in which the CO requires specific content (must include the visitor's face, for example) should be made optional..."

 

What is meant by the words "specific content" other than the example provided (can't require a photo of the visitor's face)? If I require specific content: I.E. You log must include a photo of the rock face that you measured..." is this not allowed? I fear the lack of specificity to the requirement will get you nothing and for what is worth will lose its utility.

 

I recently did a GREAT earthcache where I had to identify, measure and photograph dinosaur tracks and calculate how fast they were moving at the time the tracks were left. There were a lot of tracks so there were a lot of possible answers. It was a 6 mile hike to the site where I had to cross an ice-cold river to accomplish the task. I would consider the requirement to photograph "specific content" was in place at this site primarily so that the CO could verify my answer against the particular track set that I measured.

 

I would like to make my own EC sometime soon but am being scared away by what appear to be ambiguous rule sets.

 

What is the issue with photos? If the issue is personal privacy, why not just say something like this then in the guidelines:.."Requirements for an earthcache logger to post a photo of THEMSELVES at the cache site must be optional. Earthcaches may require a photo as a logging requirement (in addition to the other learning tasks) if it clearly supports the learning process and/or validates that the cache location was physically visited." :unsure:

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What is meant by the words "specific content" other than the example provided (can't require a photo of the visitor's face)?

 

In my understanding the main issue is what's the intent behind asking for a photograph. The examples you mention about photographing something you measured belong in my opinion to the educational part of the requirements. There are no rule set for this part of the requirements at all and such a rule set cannot exist.

No one is complaining that it is defined which type of gology-related questions are strong enough and which not. The decision in this regard has always depended on the people reviewing the Earth caches and this will continue to be the case.

 

Other examples of specific photo content with no earth science connection would be to ask for a photograph on top of a rock which one does not need to climb to answer the geology related questions asking for photographs where the cacher is standing to the left of a sign and rejecting ones where he stands to the right.

 

I would like to make my own EC sometime soon but am being scared away by what appear to be ambiguous rule sets.

 

It appears quite simple to me and also conforms with what geoaware wrote. Develop strong geology related questions/tasks that require visiting the location (not questions that can easily answered by using google or some books). Whether buckets, measuring tapes, cameras or whatever are needed to solve the task, will never be part of the guidelines.

 

I have looked at the descriptions of many Earth caches and what I noticed is that several cases the tasks are very weak and the answers can be found without visiting the location. So the photograph is the main requirement and this is unfortunate and should be avoided. I think Earth caches should be something special and not just virtual caches at locations with more or less geological interest. Quite a number of earth caches are of that type - nothing is taught that could not already be learnt by reading the description and checking some web sites. While I would never cheat and log a found it for a cache which I have not visited, I feel that Earth caches where a visit to the location does not teach me anything extra than book knowledge, should not be published. (The examples who mentioned where the visitor has to get active and do something are examples for what I regard as examples for good practice. If questions of the type to whch mineral class does mineral X belong to? are the main tasks, this is an example for bad practice.)

 

Cezanne

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"Photograph requests in which the CO requires specific content (must include the visitor's face, for example) should be made optional..."

 

What is meant by the words "specific content" other than the example provided (can't require a photo of the visitor's face)? If I require specific content: I.E. You log must include a photo of the rock face that you measured..." is this not allowed? I fear the lack of specificity to the requirement will get you nothing and for what is worth will lose its utility.

 

I recently did a GREAT earthcache where I had to identify, measure and photograph dinosaur tracks and calculate how fast they were moving at the time the tracks were left. There were a lot of tracks so there were a lot of possible answers. It was a 6 mile hike to the site where I had to cross an ice-cold river to accomplish the task. I would consider the requirement to photograph "specific content" was in place at this site primarily so that the CO could verify my answer against the particular track set that I measured.

 

I would like to make my own EC sometime soon but am being scared away by what appear to be ambiguous rule sets.

 

What is the issue with photos? If the issue is personal privacy, why not just say something like this then in the guidelines:.."Requirements for an earthcache logger to post a photo of THEMSELVES at the cache site must be optional. Earthcaches may require a photo as a logging requirement (in addition to the other learning tasks) if it clearly supports the learning process and/or validates that the cache location was physically visited." :unsure:

You are absolutely right.

This whole thing is as clear as mud! Just what the heck is specific content? Can you require a picture but not say what ya want in the picture? This is a example of the right hand not talkin to the left hand. For those of us who have done a lota earthcaching, we need some clear water.

Please, would the reviewers, Groundspeak and geoaware put out a clear statement about pic requirements and what can be required in the photo?

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"Photograph requests in which the CO requires specific content (must include the visitor's face, for example) should be made optional..."

 

What is meant by the words "specific content" other than the example provided (can't require a photo of the visitor's face)? If I require specific content: I.E. You log must include a photo of the rock face that you measured..." is this not allowed? I fear the lack of specificity to the requirement will get you nothing and for what is worth will lose its utility.

 

I recently did a GREAT earthcache where I had to identify, measure and photograph dinosaur tracks and calculate how fast they were moving at the time the tracks were left. There were a lot of tracks so there were a lot of possible answers. It was a 6 mile hike to the site where I had to cross an ice-cold river to accomplish the task. I would consider the requirement to photograph "specific content" was in place at this site primarily so that the CO could verify my answer against the particular track set that I measured.

 

I would like to make my own EC sometime soon but am being scared away by what appear to be ambiguous rule sets.

 

What is the issue with photos? If the issue is personal privacy, why not just say something like this then in the guidelines:.."Requirements for an earthcache logger to post a photo of THEMSELVES at the cache site must be optional. Earthcaches may require a photo as a logging requirement (in addition to the other learning tasks) if it clearly supports the learning process and/or validates that the cache location was physically visited." :unsure:

You are absolutely right.

This whole thing is as clear as mud! Just what the heck is specific content? Can you require a picture but not say what ya want in the picture? This is a example of the right hand not talkin to the left hand. For those of us who have done a lota earthcaching, we need some clear water.

Please, would the reviewers, Groundspeak and geoaware put out a clear statement about pic requirements and what can be required in the photo?

 

The term 'specific content' refers to content that is not related to the site or educational logging tasks. For example, asking for the face of a cacher, a picture of their vehicle, the picture of their dog......are not related to the site or the logging task. These photo requests MUST be optional.

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"Photograph requests in which the CO requires specific content (must include the visitor's face, for example) should be made optional..."

 

What is meant by the words "specific content" other than the example provided (can't require a photo of the visitor's face)? If I require specific content: I.E. You log must include a photo of the rock face that you measured..." is this not allowed? I fear the lack of specificity to the requirement will get you nothing and for what is worth will lose its utility.

 

I recently did a GREAT earthcache where I had to identify, measure and photograph dinosaur tracks and calculate how fast they were moving at the time the tracks were left. There were a lot of tracks so there were a lot of possible answers. It was a 6 mile hike to the site where I had to cross an ice-cold river to accomplish the task. I would consider the requirement to photograph "specific content" was in place at this site primarily so that the CO could verify my answer against the particular track set that I measured.

 

I would like to make my own EC sometime soon but am being scared away by what appear to be ambiguous rule sets.

 

What is the issue with photos? If the issue is personal privacy, why not just say something like this then in the guidelines:.."Requirements for an earthcache logger to post a photo of THEMSELVES at the cache site must be optional. Earthcaches may require a photo as a logging requirement (in addition to the other learning tasks) if it clearly supports the learning process and/or validates that the cache location was physically visited." :unsure:

You are absolutely right.

This whole thing is as clear as mud! Just what the heck is specific content? Can you require a picture but not say what ya want in the picture? This is a example of the right hand not talkin to the left hand. For those of us who have done a lota earthcaching, we need some clear water.

Please, would the reviewers, Groundspeak and geoaware put out a clear statement about pic requirements and what can be required in the photo?

 

The term 'specific content' refers to content that is not related to the site or educational logging tasks. For example, asking for the face of a cacher, a picture of their vehicle, the picture of their dog......are not related to the site or the logging task. These photo requests MUST be optional.

Thanks for the clarification. :)

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Note however that your site-specific questions will need to be strong. The photo requirement must be made after the questions. They can't be questions answered by an internet search or using online tools (such as Google Earth).

 

While I appreciate what you wrote above, having looked at a number of newly came out Earth caches it appears to me that not all reviewers seem to act in the same way.

Quite a number of the new Earth caches approved by geoaware.de seem to have quite weak site-specific questions and in the majority of the cases the photo requirement is the logging requirement that is listed first and also is the strongest one. It seems to me that the trend to use automatic e-mail responders encourages even further to choose very basic questions together with unique answers - questions where something needs to be estimated, explained in one's one words etc do not comply with this new trend. For many cachers it does not seem to be their main priority to learn something about geology and to experience something new, but just to log each cache in its right order (which means that response times of less than 1 hour are expected by quite a number of cachers).

 

ANother reason for weak logging questions seems to be the fact that apparently Earth caches at show caves and places of this type which can only be entered by paying a moderate entrance fee are prefered when no visit of the cave is requested. In my opinion, such caches are quite useless as they hardly tell anything about geology and the questions that can be asked are just artificial ones. For such caches clearly the photograph is the most important requirement.

 

I would appreciate if the earthcache guidelines are applied in the same way in all countries.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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"Quite a number of the new Earth caches approved by geoaware.de seem to have quite weak site-specific questions and in the majority of the cases the photo requirement is the logging requirement that is listed first and also is the strongest one. It seems to me that the trend to use automatic e-mail responders encourages even further to choose very basic questions together with unique answers - questions where something needs to be estimated, explained in one's one words etc do not comply with this new trend."

 

I think it takes more than a couple of days to establish a "new trend" what ever that means. Many times all you got to work with is having a cacher do an estimate. Folks jus can't lug a lab with them!

Remember most of us are not geologists and we aren't about to make cachers geologists at our earthcaches. The geoaware de is probably doing a good job.

Find and submit a earthcache and you will find out.

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The term 'specific content' refers to content that is not related to the site or educational logging tasks.

 

Thanks for the clarification! But can't you just add it to the guidelines? Then it should be clear for everybody. Because asking for a picture of "this educational thing next to the coordinates" could also be "specific content"....

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...a bunch of stuff over the past several days...

 

Who are you and what have you done to Chuck?

 

(I suspect I know the answers and I think it's pretty low of you if I am right.)

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CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHY I HAVE TO SIGN THE LOG FOR A TRADITIONAL CACHE? HECK IF I FOUND IT, HELD IT, OPENED IT, THEN WHY DO I HAVE TO SIGN IT?

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This has nothing to do with this thread :rolleyes: . Please take it somewhere else...

 

...a bunch of stuff over the past several days...

 

Who are you and what have you done to Chuck?

 

(I suspect I know the answers and I think it's pretty low of you if I am right.)

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This has nothing to do with this thread :rolleyes: . Please take it somewhere else...

 

...a bunch of stuff over the past several days...

 

Who are you and what have you done to Chuck?

 

(I suspect I know the answers and I think it's pretty low of you if I am right.)

 

This is where it belongs (and another thread or 2 here). Not a comment on the topic(s). I actually agree with the sentiment(s), for the most part, just not the tactics. I know mtmanva2 and know for a fact that those comments were not written by him, I've read enough of his cache pages to be sure of that. What I am not sure of is whether he knows that they are being made by someone signed in under his account...

 

Dirty pool is dirty pool.

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I think it takes more than a couple of days to establish a "new trend" what ever that means.

 

I agree in general, but not with respect to the specific aspect that among the newly published Earth caches in Germany and Austria (61 new Earth caches in Germany in the new system, 5 in Austria - i.e. more than three times as many as in the US in the same period where 10 are from one cacher from Colorado) there are many with weak logging requirements (weak to be seen as the opposite of the usage of "strong" by geoware).

Roughly 60 caches is a sufficiently high number in my opinion. I am also wondering about the very fast approval (of course this is also something appreciated by many cache creators) that I am currently observing.

 

Please note, however, that "the new trend" I wrote above did not refer to the work of the Earth cache reviewers, but to the way how permissions for logs are sent by the creators of Earth caches and the response time that Earth cache finders are expecting. (So the observation period is not a few days, but several months, up to one year). It is obvious that estimation questions cannot be used

if the log permission is done in the way that a potential finder has to sent an e-mail to an address of the type answer1-answer2@whatever. I both encountered old Earth caches where the logging requirements have been changed and simplified to allow an automatic response as well as many new Earth caches in German speaking countries where the logging questions are quite weak in the sense explained above.

According to my experience with the old review system, quite often weak logging questions had to be

complemented (per request of the GSA) with questions involving some estimation, measuring etc process. (I have translated several Earth caches to English and thus know how the originally submitted version looked like and how the published one looked like). I am worried that with the new system weak logging question might get through again more easily.

 

In many cases I could answer all questions wiithout visiting the site. To relate what I am writing again with the photo requirement. Consider the following scenario: Mr X has visited an Earth cache location some time ago when there has been no Earthcache there and he happened to take a photograph there. Due to the weak educational related questions he is able to answer them without visiting the location again. Now the type of photo requirement can make the essential difference. If photographs with specific content are allowed, the creator of the Earth cache can ask for a photograph where the person claiming a find for an Earth cache is holding up his right hand (something which will unlikely be the case for a previously taken photograph). Note that Mr X is not cheating - he has visited the location and is able to answer all questions. So in my opinion, this should be a legitimate find (it is the fault of the creator of the Earth cache to have come along with weak questions that can be answered from abroad). In any case, the situation I would prefer is that the logging questions are sufficiently specific and not being answerable without a visit to the location.

 

 

Many times all you got to work with is having a cacher do an estimate. Folks jus can't lug a lab with them!

Remember most of us are not geologists and we aren't about to make cachers geologists at our earthcaches. The geoaware de is probably doing a good job.

Find and submit a earthcache and you will find out.

 

By submitting my own Earth cache will not lead me to a reply to my concern since I am not claiming that it is not possible to get Earth caches with strong logging questions published. I am rather observing that recently quite a number with weak logging requirements slipped through where indeed the photo requirement is the most important requirement. In many cases the questions seem to be half-hearted - they are just there because the guidelines ask for them, not to convey something of educational value.

In theory, I could of course and try to submit an Earth cache with weak questions to see what happens, but that sort of approach does not comply with the quality standard I am setting up for my own work.

 

PS: I am not a geologist and my geology knowledge is quite basic (mostly stuff I was taught as a teenager in school which was certainly more which is usually taught at ths level in the US). As a consequence thereof I am able to answer some questions off my head, they are quite likely weak.

 

PS2: Note that the intent of my posts is neither to accuse the Earth cache reviewers to do bad work (they are doing good work and what they do is very valuable for the community) nor to criticize Earth caches. I am pro Earth caches, but only when they are more than just arbitrary virtual caches with photo requirements which means that the photo requirement should not be the essential one. (Otherwise there would have to be also history, biology and many other topics which would have to be allowed their own caches.)

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne

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