HELP: will the reviewer believe me?

[+chrisrayn]

I want to post a cache on a stretch of road near where I live that is no longer maintained by the Department of Transportation.

 

However, I went to City Hall in my town and asked if the road, which is located between one washed-out bridge and one intentionally-demolished bridge, had reverted back to the ownership of the landowners or if it was still publicly owned.

 

A man at City Hall referred me to TXDoT (the Texas Department of Transportation), whom I called. She said she knew exactly of the location I was speaking of, and that while the road isn't being maintained, they ALLOW THE ILLEGALLY POSTED NO TRESPASSING SIGNS merely because they serve to prevent vehicular accidents.

 

However, she said that, technically, THE ROAD LOCATED BETWEEN THE TWO BROKEN BRIDGES IS STILL, TECHNICALLY, OWNED BY TXDOT, AND THERE'S NOTHING ILLEGAL ABOUT WALKING ALONG THE ROAD BECAUSE IT ISN'T ON PRIVATE LAND.

 

I'm afraid, though, if I hide these caches and put them up for review, there may be a blanket disapproval on all No Trespassing signs, even though the woman at TXDoT told me that LOCAL FARMERS HAD POSTED THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS TO DETER KIDS WHO COME OUT THERE TO PARTY.

 

Do you think the reviewers will believe my explanation? It's very sad too, because I remember there are a couple of historical markers on this piece of land that I will now be FREQUENTING because I've learned it's completely legal (though I couldn't resist, with the beautiful disaster of the roadway, venturing out there even before I learned it was legal...:-) ).

 

Has anyone had experience with this or thinks it would be approved based on my explanation? I don't want to hide the caches (I'm going to make a trail of about 15 legal caches on the road), and then find out they won't be posted.

 

thanks for any help!

 

chrisrayn

[+webscouter.]

I want to post a cache on a stretch of road near where I live that is no longer maintained by the Department of Transportation.

 

However, I went to City Hall in my town and asked if the road, which is located between one washed-out bridge and one intentionally-demolished bridge, had reverted back to the ownership of the landowners or if it was still publicly owned.

 

A man at City Hall referred me to TXDoT (the Texas Department of Transportation), whom I called. She said she knew exactly of the location I was speaking of, and that while the road isn't being maintained, they ALLOW THE ILLEGALLY POSTED NO TRESPASSING SIGNS merely because they serve to prevent vehicular accidents.

 

However, she said that, technically, THE ROAD LOCATED BETWEEN THE TWO BROKEN BRIDGES IS STILL, TECHNICALLY, OWNED BY TXDOT, AND THERE'S NOTHING ILLEGAL ABOUT WALKING ALONG THE ROAD BECAUSE IT ISN'T ON PRIVATE LAND.

 

I'm afraid, though, if I hide these caches and put them up for review, there may be a blanket disapproval on all No Trespassing signs, even though the woman at TXDoT told me that LOCAL FARMERS HAD POSTED THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS TO DETER KIDS WHO COME OUT THERE TO PARTY.

 

Do you think the reviewers will believe my explanation? It's very sad too, because I remember there are a couple of historical markers on this piece of land that I will now be FREQUENTING because I've learned it's completely legal (though I couldn't resist, with the beautiful disaster of the roadway, venturing out there even before I learned it was legal...:-) ).

 

Has anyone had experience with this or thinks it would be approved based on my explanation? I don't want to hide the caches (I'm going to make a trail of about 15 legal caches on the road), and then find out they won't be posted.

 

thanks for any help!

 

chrisrayn

I would think that the reviewer would allow the caches. I don't know for sure though.

 

My concern would be this.

 

1. Cachers wouldn't know that the land was freely accessible. This would prompt many Needs Archived logs or logs stating they turned around. Might not endure you to the local community.

 

2. The farmer my believe that by posting the signs he has created a no trespassing zone. He may even believe that it is now his property. If so he might accost cachers that had entered "his" land and that could get ugly.

 

For these reasons I would probably rethink the plan, regardless of your right to be on the property.

[+BlueDeuce]

even though the woman at TXDoT told me that LOCAL FARMERS HAD POSTED THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS TO DETER KIDS WHO COME OUT THERE TO PARTY.

 

You'll most likely be required to have permission from the landowners, it is their property after all. Otherwise you are trespassing, party kid or not.

[+ThirstyMick]

even though the woman at TXDoT told me that LOCAL FARMERS HAD POSTED THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS TO DETER KIDS WHO COME OUT THERE TO PARTY.

 

You'll most likely be required to have permission from the landowners, it is their property after all. Otherwise you are trespassing, party kid or not.

 

Looks like he's saying that they aren't the landowners though. They just took it upon themselves to put up the no trespassing signs b/c of the party kids. The texas DOT would be the ones to get permission from.

 

I saw a very nasty, not so family friendly homemade no trespassing sign on land which is very much a public park.

 

If you do put caches there, make sure to make it very clear on your cache pages that the land is NOT private property, and you should be okay as long as the locals who put up the signs don't harass geocachers who are drawn to the area.. Legal or not, It may not be such a good idea to place the caches if they are hostile. Where you might have problems however is in your plan to put 15 of em. How big is this piece of land? They might question whether you are creating a power trail.

[+bittsen]

Get small signs made that say "except geocachers" and place them on the illegaly placed "no trespassing" signs.

 

Yes, that's a tongue in cheek response.

 

I would think that copies of any emails from the Texas DOT would suffice for the reviewer. I don't know how many farmers you are talking about but it sounds like they are attempting to keep people from using public lands. That may (I would hope it is) be illegal.

[+briansnat]

I don't see why the reviewer wouldn't beleive you. Just include what you wrote here, along with the names/titles of the people who you sopke with in a "note to reviewer" on the cache page

[+chrisrayn]

even though the woman at TXDoT told me that LOCAL FARMERS HAD POSTED THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS TO DETER KIDS WHO COME OUT THERE TO PARTY.

 

You'll most likely be required to have permission from the landowners, it is their property after all. Otherwise you are trespassing, party kid or not.

 

Looks like he's saying that they aren't the landowners though. They just took it upon themselves to put up the no trespassing signs b/c of the party kids. The texas DOT would be the ones to get permission from.

 

I saw a very nasty, not so family friendly homemade no trespassing sign on land which is very much a public park.

 

If you do put caches there, make sure to make it very clear on your cache pages that the land is NOT private property, and you should be okay as long as the locals who put up the signs don't harass geocachers who are drawn to the area.. Legal or not, It may not be such a good idea to place the caches if they are hostile. Where you might have problems however is in your plan to put 15 of em. How big is this piece of land? They might question whether you are creating a power trail.

 

I'm sorry...but what's a power trail? I noticed a "chaparral trail" about 20 miles from me that contains 110 caches in a 20-something-mile stretch. Is this illegal? I wasn't aware of it. I just want people to walk from one end to the other, and this seems the best method.

 

And nevermind about 15...i think i can get 8 at the max...it appears to only be about a mile long. seems a lot longer when you have to walk it.

[+BlueDeuce]

even though the woman at TXDoT told me that LOCAL FARMERS HAD POSTED THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS TO DETER KIDS WHO COME OUT THERE TO PARTY.

 

You'll most likely be required to have permission from the landowners, it is their property after all. Otherwise you are trespassing, party kid or not.

 

Looks like he's saying that they aren't the landowners though. They just took it upon themselves to put up the no trespassing signs b/c of the party kids. The texas DOT would be the ones to get permission from.

 

Ah, okay. I misunderstood. Just wanted to make sure the proper landowner was involved.

[+9Key]

You have to ask yourself - is this a place I really want to bring my fellow geocachers? No tresspassing signs all around, with the possibility of run ins with the nearby property owners? Would you do a cache placed there? If you have any hesitation in answering these questions then do not place the cache. Move on to a new location - maybe a city park or nature preserve, public land of some sort.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

even though the woman at TXDoT told me that LOCAL FARMERS HAD POSTED THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS TO DETER KIDS WHO COME OUT THERE TO PARTY.

 

You'll most likely be required to have permission from the landowners, it is their property after all. Otherwise you are trespassing, party kid or not.

 

Looks like he's saying that they aren't the landowners though. They just took it upon themselves to put up the no trespassing signs b/c of the party kids. The texas DOT would be the ones to get permission from.

 

I saw a very nasty, not so family friendly homemade no trespassing sign on land which is very much a public park.

 

If you do put caches there, make sure to make it very clear on your cache pages that the land is NOT private property, and you should be okay as long as the locals who put up the signs don't harass geocachers who are drawn to the area.. Legal or not, It may not be such a good idea to place the caches if they are hostile. Where you might have problems however is in your plan to put 15 of em. How big is this piece of land? They might question whether you are creating a power trail.

 

I'm sorry...but what's a power trail? I noticed a "chaparral trail" about 20 miles from me that contains 110 caches in a 20-something-mile stretch. Is this illegal? I wasn't aware of it. I just want people to walk from one end to the other, and this seems the best method.

 

And nevermind about 15...i think i can get 8 at the max...it appears to only be about a mile long. seems a lot longer when you have to walk it.

A Power Trail is when someone places a series of Caches at or near the minimum distance from eash other. They make these so that someone can say...walk 2 miles and log 20 Caches, or drive 5 miles and log 50 Caches. It's a numbers thing. If you have a mile of road, and are trying to squeze as many Caches as you can fit in it, then that would be a power trail. I think you could reach your goal with only 4 Caches, or maybe with one multi Cache.

 

As far as the farmers go...all the times you've been out there, have you ever had a problem with them? If not, then other Cachers will most likely not have any either. If you have had issues with them, then I might rethink the plan.

[+Leaky Spoon]

We've recently come up on a situation like this. In attempting to do a multi, the 2nd stage clearly took us to a spot of likely access that said "No Tresspassing! Trespassers wtill be Prosecuted" so we left.

 

We contacted the CO and specifically asked "Can you assure us that permission has been granted to enter this property?" The CO's response was that the no trespassing sign was against vehicles (sign did not say that) and that the nearby office building uses the area to walk the canyon.

 

This didn't indicate clear permission, so we don't feel we have the right to go back. I think that if you have permission and it so states on the cache page (to help alleviate fears) we'd search for your cache. I know some don't mind crossing those signs and I know that not all signs are valid, but we won't cross them

 

Good luck! I hope it all turns out for the best!

[+wyld_bill2003]

Why not introduce yourself to the farmers and let them know that cachers will be in the area hunting for your caches. That way they will know to expect people to be there and will know why.

[+bittsen]

Why not introduce yourself to the farmers and let them know that cachers will be in the area hunting for your caches. That way they will know to expect people to be there and will know why.

 

... or get a few shotgun shells loaded with rock salt.

 

[+texasgrillchef]

I want to post a cache on a stretch of road near where I live that is no longer maintained by the Department of Transportation.

 

However, I went to City Hall in my town and asked if the road, which is located between one washed-out bridge and one intentionally-demolished bridge, had reverted back to the ownership of the landowners or if it was still publicly owned.

 

A man at City Hall referred me to TXDoT (the Texas Department of Transportation), whom I called. She said she knew exactly of the location I was speaking of, and that while the road isn't being maintained, they ALLOW THE ILLEGALLY POSTED NO TRESPASSING SIGNS merely because they serve to prevent vehicular accidents.

 

However, she said that, technically, THE ROAD LOCATED BETWEEN THE TWO BROKEN BRIDGES IS STILL, TECHNICALLY, OWNED BY TXDOT, AND THERE'S NOTHING ILLEGAL ABOUT WALKING ALONG THE ROAD BECAUSE IT ISN'T ON PRIVATE LAND.

 

I'm afraid, though, if I hide these caches and put them up for review, there may be a blanket disapproval on all No Trespassing signs, even though the woman at TXDoT told me that LOCAL FARMERS HAD POSTED THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS TO DETER KIDS WHO COME OUT THERE TO PARTY.

 

Do you think the reviewers will believe my explanation? It's very sad too, because I remember there are a couple of historical markers on this piece of land that I will now be FREQUENTING because I've learned it's completely legal (though I couldn't resist, with the beautiful disaster of the roadway, venturing out there even before I learned it was legal...:-) ).

 

Has anyone had experience with this or thinks it would be approved based on my explanation? I don't want to hide the caches (I'm going to make a trail of about 15 legal caches on the road), and then find out they won't be posted.

 

thanks for any help!

 

chrisrayn

 

Go take the illegally posted signs down. I checked with a friend of mine who is a Deputy for Denton County Texas and he told me that he nor any of the other deputies would make an arrest for anyone removing illegally posted "No Trespassing Signs" provided those signs are NOT signs that have been posted by the City, County, or State.

 

Example of a goverment posted sign will be one of major proffesional grade on a metal post. Similar to a "Speed limit" sign etc...

 

Ie... or in other words... if the "No Tresspasing Signs" are those inexpensive signs that you can buy yourself at your local wally world/home depot/lowes etc... then simply go take em down.

 

Once you do that... submit your cache to be published and don't mention that their is an issue with any "No Trespassing Signs"

 

TGC

[+mfamilee]

Ie... or in other words... if the "No Tresspasing Signs" are those inexpensive signs that you can buy yourself at your local wally world/home depot/lowes etc... then simply go take em down.

Taking down a farmer's sign doesn't sound like a way to get on his good side.

I can just imagine the farmer taking a cache in exchange.

 

Once you do that... submit your cache to be published and don't mention that their is an issue with any "No Trespassing Signs"

Umm...

[+AstroDav]

Go take the illegally posted signs down. I checked with a friend of mine who is a Deputy for Denton County Texas and he told me that he nor any of the other deputies would make an arrest for anyone removing illegally posted "No Trespassing Signs" provided those signs are NOT signs that have been posted by the City, County, or State.

 

 

NOOO!!!!! Regardless of if they are there legally or not, you have no right to touch them unless YOU OWN THE PROPERTY!! Whatever you heard from a cop is meaningless.

 

These kind of suggestions are a REALLY good way to get someone in trouble & I'm pretty sure you have posted stuff like this before.....painting words on something that you don't own.

 

I HOPE your intentions aren't to purposely encourage someone to do something illegal.

[Clan Riffster]

I had a few errant "No Trespassing" signs kill a multicache of mine.

It took you along the shore of a lake, through a bunch of ancient cypress trees.

When I set it up, I checked the property appraiser's website, discovering where the private land ended.

Depending on the level of the lake, the private land stopped between 50' to 100' from the water.

That 50/100' strip was sovereign, with full, legal, public access.

The land owners didn't like looking out their back windows seeing folks walking around, so they posted signs.

The signs are all on that strip of sovereign land.

Rather than entice folks into a potential confrontation with those kooks, I just nuked the cache.

 

My advice? Don't hide them while there are signs, legal or otherwise, telling folks not to go there.

Once the sign issue has been resolved, lay out a single multi, rather than trying to cram 8 caches along a mile long roadway.

[+chrisrayn]

Why not introduce yourself to the farmers and let them know that cachers will be in the area hunting for your caches. That way they will know to expect people to be there and will know why.

 

This I've actually thought of. Perhaps getting an official geocaching sticker and putting it on the No Trespassing sign after I've talked to the guy who lives nearby. Maybe if they understood what it was we do, then they would support the effort.

 

You have to ask yourself - is this a place I really want to bring my fellow geocachers? No tresspassing signs all around, with the possibility of run ins with the nearby property owners? Would you do a cache placed there? If you have any hesitation in answering these questions then do not place the cache. Move on to a new location - maybe a city park or nature preserve, public land of some sort.

 

See, the strange thing is that I really WOULD. A cache in this area would be exactly like the few caches that have amazed me and made me want to revisit on a semi-regular basis. The area itself is gorgeous...two blown out bridges, an old, unkempt asphalt road with 6-8 inch cracks in it where trees grow up through the pavement...and the terrain isn't as difficult as one I've done IN my local town, within the city limits. I'd much rather somebody travel this road where they rarely have to bend over than to climb through brambles and over a creek just for its own sake.

 

This area is something beautiful, like the land that time forgot. It's sad to think I didn't do what I could to make it available to geocachers, especially since it's entirely legal.

 

A Power Trail is when someone places a series of Caches at or near the minimum distance from eash other. They make these so that someone can say...walk 2 miles and log 20 Caches, or drive 5 miles and log 50 Caches. It's a numbers thing. If you have a mile of road, and are trying to squeze as many Caches as you can fit in it, then that would be a power trail. I think you could reach your goal with only 4 Caches, or maybe with one multi Cache.

 

As far as the farmers go...all the times you've been out there, have you ever had a problem with them? If not, then other Cachers will most likely not have any either. If you have had issues with them, then I might rethink the plan.

 

I think I would put at least 5. For those who want to traverse the entire mile stretch (which takes around a 40 minutes to an hour to walk, probably double with caching), that is available. However, with a multi-cache, it would perhaps Require them to, which I don't necessarily want to do. If they want to get three on one side one day, and three on the other side the next day, that's available to them. I'm afraid a multi-cache would just piss people off. I may, however, include a quick multi-cache and a mystery cache as one of the six on the road.

 

And in regards to the farmers, I'VE never had a problem with them...but I've heard from the cops that they've been out there a number of times, but only to bust up raucous high school drinking parties at like 2 AM. I've hiked across around 6 or 7 times, and never gotten so much as a note on my car.

 

By the way, thank you EVERYONE for all your help in this! :-D

Edited August 1, 2009 by chrisrayn

[+Curioddity]

This whole thing reminds me of a parallel issue we have here in the Los Angeles Basin: Valet services are putting illegal "No Parking" signs in public parking spaces so they can use the spaces for their operations. There's been quite an exposé about the practice lately on the local news shows and some vigilante citizens have been removing the signs and parking in the spaces.

 

One of my friends was one of those vigilantes. He parked in one of those illegally marked spaces and told the valet to go .. erm .. well I think you get the idea. Anyway, when he returned to his car it had been keyed and the two curb-side tires were flat. Of course there was a great deal of finger-pointing and accusations, but nothing could be proven so no legal action was taken against the valet service.

 

My point is, regardless of whether you're right or wrong, why provoke a confrontation? If the landowner who's land this easement goes through gets upset there could be some ugly consequences including the cache disappearing and confrontation. Is placing a cache on this stretch of land that important?

 

I used to ride with a fellow who was an active member of the LA County Wheelmen (bicycles). He was killed by a car many years ago while on a ride, and on his headstone it actually says "He had the rightaway." That was actually put there in memory of his exceptionally humorous nature, but I think there's another lesson to be learned there too.

 

Pete

[+Dawgies]

Name the cache "No Trespassing" and the build cache and description to match.

[CoyoteRed]

I agree with talking to the farmers. Just let them know we're outdoor lovers who love to see cool things including modern ruins like what you describe. Depending on your skills this really should be no problem.

 

A pointer: don't mention it being listed on the internet. Folks imagine hundreds of visitors a year. Mention "for some friends" and maybe a few to several visits a year. It really depends on how far out the road is and how much buzz it gets. Don't lie, but "manage the full details." If pressed say that it's put on the internet and make sure to immediately follow up with "basically a convenience so we can share our experiences." Remember, it's not what you're saying, but how you say it.

 

The issue that bothers me more though is are the teenagers actually gone? Will cachers on later day weekend hunts be confronted with drunken teenagers really to prove themselves?

 

Otherwise, it sounds like the type of hunt I'd really like. Besides the power trail, that is. Maybe a good story-based puzzle mystery?

[+Knight2000]

Did it look like this?

 

 

If it were me I would take down the signs whether geocaching or not. I'm just ornery like that though. (I also take down yard/garage sale signs that are weeks old and go and throw them in the offenders yard. Sometimes I call them instead and ask them why they are making our town look trashy.)

 

We have a cache series with NT signs. They are also directed at kids but I just mention in the cache pages that geocachers have permission. Of course we do and that is a different issue.

 

If the caches are worthy and they are not infringing upon something else like land or something, I would place the caches. I would write the info that you have possibly with names and contact information in the cache description. Then I would give a good warning to cachers who won't listen and will go search for it anyway.

 

I would do all this a few weeks after taking down those signs though. Once down, they may not come back.

 

Once i posted a SBA on a cache I did that had no trespassing signs. I was mad. It was a multi in WV and we drove all over the place just to see lots of NT signs. I was assured later that the signs were not legal and the land was public access. The hider didn't know about the signs. If I would have known I could have searched for the cache.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

All-in-all, sounds like trubble to me.

 

I agree with your concept of what is right, HOWEVER, to "prove" you are right (especially at the expense of other geocachers) probably isn't the way to go about it.

 

Go to the farmer(s) and discuss it with them -- forget that you are right and they are wrong. Don't even let that enter the discussion -- sit with them and explain geocaching (you might even get them interested in it).

 

The last thing you would want to do is make that initial contact a confrontational one. If so, you (and geocaching) lose, not matter what!

 

Outside of that....... move on to something else (I'm sorry).

[+bittsen]

I am surprised at the number of people suggesting that the public take it in the backside because a few farmers want to restrict the public from using the property we own.

 

I've been in a situation where I was on a "private beach" and told to leave. Good thing I knew ahead of time that Oregon had no private beaches.

 

When one person tries to put ownership on something that the public owns, they need to be dealth with.

Edited August 1, 2009 by bittsen

[+uxorious]

I have a cache that is on an old road that is no longer used. (it looks more like a trail than a road. )

The FTF cachers where approached by someone who told them this was private property, and trespassing was not allowed.

 

I printed out a copy of the county maps that show this as belonging to the county roads system, even though it was no longer use for that.

 

Took the map and a Geocache pamphlet and talked with the landowner. I had a nice chat with the owner, and told her about Geocaching, and gave her my phone number. I let her know, I didn't' want the cache to be a big bother to her and she could call if it was.

 

She said they were well aware the easement for the road went through their property, and that it was public land. She said the fellow that told the FTF it was private was her Grandson. He was concerned because of some recent break ins in the area. (According to the FTF he was very polite about it.)

 

The thing is the cache is up and running, has been for a couple years. The neighboring landowners are aware of it, and do not seem bothered by it.

 

I vote for talking with the farmers on this one.

[+texasgrillchef]

NOOO!!!!! Regardless of if they are there legally or not, you have no right to touch them unless YOU OWN THE PROPERTY!! Whatever you heard from a cop is meaningless.

 

If the signs are posted on PUBLIC property owned by the city, county or state & they are NOT signs posted by the city, county or state then the CO/OP CAN in fact legally REMOVE those signs. The OP stated that the property in question was in FACT PUBLIC property and NOT private property.

 

However... you are correct. If the property is in FACT private property then the CO/OP CAN NOT remove the signs legally. But like I said... the CO/OP states the property is publically owned. ie owned by the city, county or state.

 

In the State of Texas. State law says that any PRIVATLY posted sign on PUBLIC property can be removed by any individual. Example.... A Garage/Yard sale sign that is posted lets say on public right of way. (Side of the road, a road median) can be removed by anyone legally.

 

The legal difference is if the sign is posted on private or public property. An illegal sign that is posted on private property can only be removed by a court order from the city, county or state. Such as illegal billboards. They are on private property. A Billboard that has been illegally built even on private property requires action directly from the city, county or state. A private individual can't legally remove an illegal billboard that is on private property.

 

It is no different than If I went and posted no trespassing signs on the entrance ramp to I-35. Anyone can come alone and remove that sign legally.

 

These kind of suggestions are a REALLY good way to get someone in trouble & I'm pretty sure you have posted stuff like this before.....painting words on something that you don't own.

 

I HOPE your intentions aren't to purposely encourage someone to do something illegal.

 

I am not for sure what posts you are refering too. I have never said to anyone that you can paint words on something you don't own or have a legal right to do so. In the state of Texas, graffitti (sp?) is illegal on any public owned property, or property that you don't own or have permission to do so. Of course I would never encourage someone to do anything that is illegal. But what I am suggesting is NOT illegal when it comes to illegally posted signs on PUBLIC property. Either way legal or not... The Denton County, TX Sherifs office wouldn't be making any arrests for removing illegal signage as described.

 

In the area that I live. Code enforcement is very strict about signage. They remove all Garage/yard sale signs without notice if they aren't on private property. Code enforcement even ENCOURAGES you to remove signs that are known to be illegally placed, however you are required to turn in the signage to the code enforcement department if you do remove the sign.

 

To verify everything I said here was in fact truth before I responded. I contacted code enforcement for my area and asked him about this. Code enforcement told me that I should tell the OP/CO that they should call their local city, county code enforcement office & ask them to have the signs removed &/or if they can remove them themselvs.

 

To the CO/OP: To be safe. Call your local code enforcement office for the location in question & talk to them about the issue. They may go out and remove the signs, or they may tell you that you can do it yourself. Just give them a call.

 

The main question is the signage posted on public property or private property owned by the farmers. If its public the farmers are breaking the law. If the signage is on private property then the farmers are legal.

 

TGC

Edited August 1, 2009 by texasgrillchef

[+mfamilee]

To verify everything I said here was in fact truth before I responded. I contacted code enforcement for my area and asked him about this. Code enforcement told me that I should tell the OP/CO that they should call their local city, county code enforcement office & ask them to have the signs removed &/or if they can remove them themselvs.

You failed to mention in your previous post you were told by code enforcement the OP should call first. That's a very big difference than just making the decision yourself to go out & take the signs down. Thanks for clarifying.

 

Go take the illegally posted signs down. I checked with a friend of mine who is a Deputy for Denton County Texas and he told me that he nor any of the other deputies would make an arrest for anyone removing illegally posted "No Trespassing Signs" provided those signs are NOT signs that have been posted by the City, County, or State.

 

Example of a goverment posted sign will be one of major proffesional grade on a metal post. Similar to a "Speed limit" sign etc...

 

Ie... or in other words... if the "No Tresspasing Signs" are those inexpensive signs that you can buy yourself at your local wally world/home depot/lowes etc... then simply go take em down.

 

Once you do that... submit your cache to be published and don't mention that their is an issue with any "No Trespassing Signs"

Edited August 1, 2009 by mfamilee

[knowschad]

NOOO!!!!! Regardless of if they are there legally or not, you have no right to touch them unless YOU OWN THE PROPERTY!! Whatever you heard from a cop is meaningless.

 

If the signs are posted on PUBLIC property owned by the city, county or state & they are NOT signs posted by the city, county or state then the CO/OP CAN in fact legally REMOVE those signs. The OP stated that the property in question was in FACT PUBLIC property and NOT private property.

 

However... you are correct. If the property is in FACT private property then the CO/OP CAN NOT remove the signs legally. But like I said... the CO/OP states the property is publically owned. ie owned by the city, county or state.

 

In the State of Texas. State law says that any PRIVATLY posted sign on PUBLIC property can be removed by any individual. Example.... A Garage/Yard sale sign that is posted lets say on public right of way. (Side of the road, a road median) can be removed by anyone legally.

 

The legal difference is if the sign is posted on private or public property. An illegal sign that is posted on private property can only be removed by a court order from the city, county or state. Such as illegal billboards. They are on private property. A Billboard that has been illegally built even on private property requires action directly from the city, county or state. A private individual can't legally remove an illegal billboard that is on private property.

 

It is no different than If I went and posted no trespassing signs on the entrance ramp to I-35. Anyone can come alone and remove that sign legally.

 

These kind of suggestions are a REALLY good way to get someone in trouble & I'm pretty sure you have posted stuff like this before.....painting words on something that you don't own.

 

I HOPE your intentions aren't to purposely encourage someone to do something illegal.

 

I am not for sure what posts you are refering too. I have never said to anyone that you can paint words on something you don't own or have a legal right to do so. In the state of Texas, graffitti (sp?) is illegal on any public owned property, or property that you don't own or have permission to do so. Of course I would never encourage someone to do anything that is illegal. But what I am suggesting is NOT illegal when it comes to illegally posted signs on PUBLIC property. Either way legal or not... The Denton County, TX Sherifs office wouldn't be making any arrests for removing illegal signage as described.

 

In the area that I live. Code enforcement is very strict about signage. They remove all Garage/yard sale signs without notice if they aren't on private property. Code enforcement even ENCOURAGES you to remove signs that are known to be illegally placed, however you are required to turn in the signage to the code enforcement department if you do remove the sign.

 

To verify everything I said here was in fact truth before I responded. I contacted code enforcement for my area and asked him about this. Code enforcement told me that I should tell the OP/CO that they should call their local city, county code enforcement office & ask them to have the signs removed &/or if they can remove them themselvs.

 

To the CO/OP: To be safe. Call your local code enforcement office for the location in question & talk to them about the issue. They may go out and remove the signs, or they may tell you that you can do it yourself. Just give them a call.

 

The main question is the signage posted on public property or private property owned by the farmers. If its public the farmers are breaking the law. If the signage is on private property then the farmers are legal.

 

TGC

 

I'd suggest you go back and read Pete's post As he, and others, have pointed out, being legally in the right does not mean that you "win".

 

To the OP:

If its true that the farmer posted those signs merely to keep the kids from partying there (which I highly doubt really works), then that same farmer would probably not have a problem ignoring geocachers, but only if he knows what's going on. He won't have the right to say "yes" or "no" if you talk to him, if it is truely public land, but at least he will be aware.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

All I can tell ya is that if I am confronted by a land owner while hunting a cache and he indicates that I or the cache should not be there I am going to log an SBA on it and let the cache owner and Reviewer hash it out!

 

That the land owner might be lying or the No Trespassing signs illegal means nothing to me... don't attract me anywhere that I am going to get fussed at, right or wrong!

 

I actually had this happen to one of my caches years ago, placed on a fossil-rich right-of-way on a roadway cut nearly a half-mile from a local landowner's property. There was absolutely no question that he did not own or control the land where the cache was, but he told cachers he did several times in rather unpleasant ways, so even though I knew I was right I archived the cache to keep finders from being harassed.

 

Sometimes being 'right' isn't worth the hassle.

[+bittsen]

All I can tell ya is that if I am confronted by a land owner while hunting a cache and he indicates that I or the cache should not be there I am going to log an SBA on it and let the cache owner and Reviewer hash it out!

 

That the land owner might be lying or the No Trespassing signs illegal means nothing to me... don't attract me anywhere that I am going to get fussed at, right or wrong!

 

I actually had this happen to one of my caches years ago, placed on a fossil-rich right-of-way on a roadway cut nearly a half-mile from a local landowner's property. There was absolutely no question that he did not own or control the land where the cache was, but he told cachers he did several times in rather unpleasant ways, so even though I knew I was right I archived the cache to keep finders from being harassed.

 

Sometimes being 'right' isn't worth the hassle.

 

When someone is tryng to take away your rights, ANY rights, it's always worth the hassle.

You have a right to be on public land.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

When someone is tryng to take away your rights, ANY rights, it's always worth the hassle.

You have a right to be on public land.

 

Well there ya go, fight fight fight for your 'rights', never back down, never give in, demand respect!

 

Um, good luck with that.

 

In the described situation I will leave without argument. You have to pick your battles... Some fights aren't worth fighting.

[+Gamaliel]

When someone is tryng to take away your rights, ANY rights, it's always worth the hassle.

You have a right to be on public land.

 

I agree, but the cache hunter isn't going to know who is in the right during a confrontation with a nearby landowner.

[+Gamaliel]

I'm curious what the signs look like. Do they clearly refer to the public road or could they just mean the surrounding land?

 

Many counties have an online, publicly accessible database of county property. If yours does, it should be easy to produce a map that proves your case to the reviewer and to potential cache finders.

[+mrbort]

I believe that a stakeout would be in order here.

 

[+mfamilee]

Sometimes being 'right' isn't worth the hassle.

I totally agree with this.

 

Red Robin

 

Check out the last logs of this archived cache where a farmer was very irate! It was at the end of a public dead end lane, but the farmer was very intent this was his property. The CO ended up archiving it himself. A smiley definitely isn't worth the chance of getting shot.

[+mrbort]

Sometimes being 'right' isn't worth the hassle.

I totally agree with this.

 

Red Robin

 

Check out the last logs of this archived cache where a farmer was very irate! It was at the end of a public dead end lane, but the farmer was very intent this was his property. The CO ended up archiving it himself. A smiley definitely isn't worth the chance of getting shot.

 

In a serious vein (as opposed to my previous post), I totally agree with this. My response here ISN'T about reclaiming public lands from those who would try to take them... It's about the cache and the experiences of those who will search for it. I just don't think it's a good idea for the cache and the hobby to try to push into places where there is clearly no welcome. It's fine to wage a battle to reclaim the public lands but to do it in the context of geocaching, to me seems a path fraught with the peril of casting the hobby in a negative light. A separate crusade against no trespassing signs is something else but when it's mixed in with something where one is actively enticing others to visit makes it a thing that could potentially put other cachers in danger or at least discomfort. Better to resolve the problem amicably, finally and decisively before placing a cache in a questionable location.

[+Knight2000]

A smiley definitely isn't worth the chance of getting shot.

Just make sure that you can shoot back.

Edited August 2, 2009 by Knight2000

[+mrbort]

A smiley definitely isn't worth the chance of getting shot.

Just make sure that you can shoot back.

Definitely need that Gunfight at the O. Cache. Corral... though I'm not sure if Burt Lancaster or Kirk Douglas are available....

[+texasgrillchef]

I'd suggest you go back and read Pete's post As he, and others, have pointed out, being legally in the right does not mean that you "win".

 

To the OP:

If its true that the farmer posted those signs merely to keep the kids from partying there (which I highly doubt really works), then that same farmer would probably not have a problem ignoring geocachers, but only if he knows what's going on. He won't have the right to say "yes" or "no" if you talk to him, if it is truely public land, but at least he will be aware.

 

My post discussion wasn't about what one should or shouldn't do. It was just on the legal aspects of what you could or couldn't do legally speaking.

 

If you wanted to be truly PC you would go have a nice chat with those that put up the signs and explain very nicel that the signs are not legally posted or legally binding & letting the "Farmers" know what your intent and desire is. From the sound of it, the farmers don't want any "Partying" going on.

 

An example of this is at a Texas State Park... Perdanales Falls State Park. On the opposite site of the river there are many many signs that say "NO TRESPASSING" when you go over to that side you can see the amount of trash left by the partiers. YET... the OWNER allows a geocache to be placed over there & allows geocachers to be in the area to hunt for the geocache. For reference... one side of the river is Texas State Park property, the other side is private property. When I was there.. I did the CITO... filled up 2 big garbage bags of beer bottles & cans!

 

So maybe she can explain about CITO and push that on her cache page as well.

 

TGC

[+texasgrillchef]

Well there ya go, fight fight fight for your 'rights', never back down, never give in, demand respect!

 

Um, good luck with that.

 

In the described situation I will leave without argument. You have to pick your battles... Some fights aren't worth fighting.

 

Exactly, absolutely... A person must pick their battles wisely. What's worth fighting for one person may not be worth the effort by someone else.

 

I wouldn't have sued Micky D's for 12 million either for hot coffee.... but someone picked their battle wisely and won their 12 million for doing something stupid! Go figure! LOL

 

BTW> Freedom isn't Free.

 

TGC

[+texasgrillchef]

Sometimes being 'right' isn't worth the hassle.

 

And Sometimes it is....

 

Just depends on what it is WORTH to you. What you & both perceive value is different.

 

To me... if this issue was mine. It would be worth fighting for. Taking the time to "SMOOZE" the farmers if need be, & or get the code enforcement department to take action.

 

Reminds me of a neighbor I had once... Legal posted speed limit on the street was 35mph. But they thought it was to fast for the street. They would become a nusisance on the street giving everyone a hard time who drove above 25mph. The speed they thought it should be posted. Eventually they got arrested for being a "Public nussance" and harrassing people. However, nothing happend until a few people stood UP to them and made complaints to the local police.

 

If you don't stand up to your rights... YOU WILL get walked on....

 

TGC

[+texasgrillchef]

A smiley definitely isn't worth the chance of getting shot.

Just make sure that you can shoot back.

 

At least in Texas.... We CAN be licensed to carry a concealed weapon. I am... and I do!

 

TGC

[+texasgrillchef]

On another note....

 

I personally would wait to get all the "Issues" cleared up with everyone concerned before I even considered placing this cache.

 

Right or wrong, I don't wish to put any cache hunters in harms way, nor do I wish for them to be unnessarily harrased.

 

Only YOU the OP can decide for yourself if this fight is worth it or not. If it is... Fight for it... Go "SMOOZE" the farmers... Call Code enforcement for the area.

 

Once the "farmers" are "Educated" about the legal ramifications as well as "Educated" on the advantages of geocaching and the CITO program, they may infact not have any issues with it going on.

 

Personally, I beleive that the TWO biggest issues we have today in our world of confrontation is a LACK of communication & a lack of EDUCATION.

 

Communicate & Educate (sp?).

 

TGC

[+ecanderson]

The attempted conversion of public property for private use is a battle that goes on constantly. While I would not necessarily bother to fight those battles in the context of a geocache, they are certainly worth fighting. I've also run across attempts by local landowners to convince the unaware that public land or roads are private when they are not.

 

Perhaps the saddest of the problems of this type are actually caused by local government. We have situations here where roads that can be demonstrated to have been "public" over the course of decades are handed over to well connected private property owners by local government. Good grief, we even have problems with the local county gating or otherwise blocking off Forest Service roads (national) to make local landowners happy. Where they imagine they derive the authority to do that is beyond me. Problem is, they'll blithely ignore FLPMA/RS2477 rules unless someone actually calls them to task. Unfortunately, people are too often unwilling to make the attempt.

 

At some point, it's incumbent upon us to take issue with this sort of garbage. Again, involving the finders of a cache in the problem isn't fair to the finder, so I'd deal with the issue separately, but I'd certainly make a point of dealing with it.

[+wimseyguy]

I want to post a cache on a stretch of road near where I live that is no longer maintained by the Department of Transportation.

 

However, I went to City Hall in my town and asked if the road, which is located between one washed-out bridge and one intentionally-demolished bridge, had reverted back to the ownership of the landowners or if it was still publicly owned.

 

A man at City Hall referred me to TXDoT (the Texas Department of Transportation), whom I called. She said she knew exactly of the location I was speaking of, and that while the road isn't being maintained, they ALLOW THE ILLEGALLY POSTED NO TRESPASSING SIGNS merely because they serve to prevent vehicular accidents.

 

However, she said that, technically, THE ROAD LOCATED BETWEEN THE TWO BROKEN BRIDGES IS STILL, TECHNICALLY, OWNED BY TXDOT, AND THERE'S NOTHING ILLEGAL ABOUT WALKING ALONG THE ROAD BECAUSE IT ISN'T ON PRIVATE LAND.

 

I'm afraid, though, if I hide these caches and put them up for review, there may be a blanket disapproval on all No Trespassing signs, even though the woman at TXDoT told me that LOCAL FARMERS HAD POSTED THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS TO DETER KIDS WHO COME OUT THERE TO PARTY.

 

Do you think the reviewers will believe my explanation? It's very sad too, because I remember there are a couple of historical markers on this piece of land that I will now be FREQUENTING because I've learned it's completely legal (though I couldn't resist, with the beautiful disaster of the roadway, venturing out there even before I learned it was legal...:-) ).

 

Has anyone had experience with this or thinks it would be approved based on my explanation? I don't want to hide the caches (I'm going to make a trail of about 15 legal caches on the road), and then find out they won't be posted.

 

thanks for any help!

 

chrisrayn

 

Go take the illegally posted signs down. I checked with a friend of mine who is a Deputy for Denton County Texas and he told me that he nor any of the other deputies would make an arrest for anyone removing illegally posted "No Trespassing Signs" provided those signs are NOT signs that have been posted by the City, County, or State.

 

Example of a goverment posted sign will be one of major proffesional grade on a metal post. Similar to a "Speed limit" sign etc...

 

Ie... or in other words... if the "No Tresspasing Signs" are those inexpensive signs that you can buy yourself at your local wally world/home depot/lowes etc... then simply go take em down.

 

Once you do that... submit your cache to be published and don't mention that their is an issue with any "No Trespassing Signs"

 

TGC

 

To the OP-I'm surprised you didn't simply ask your local reviewer this question, instead of posting it in the forums. Now you have all kinds of advice, some wiser than others.

To TGC-great plan. I'm sure there's no chance of that pesky reviewer reading this thread in the public forums.

 

I agree that it sounds like an interesting place for a cache and a walk. There's a whole series of caches around here call Into the Lake. They are no the roads that were cut off when Falls Lake was created by the damming of the Neuse River in the early 80's. It is really interesting to see nature reclaim spaces like this.

[+uxorious]

Perhaps the saddest of the problems of this type are actually caused by local government. We have situations here where roads that can be demonstrated to have been "public" over the course of decades are handed over to well connected private property owners by local government.

 

I don't know about where you live, but around here the local property owners are sometimes offered the ability to buy the right of way. I haven't heard of the government just giving that property away.

 

I suppose it could happen, not all local governments are the pinnacle of honesty. However, without proof otherwise I would assume the landowner paid for it.

 

Also some right of ways are on easements, and the easement is suppose to revert back to the property owner if it is no longer going to be used for what the easement was given for. ( not usually relevant to public roads though.)

[+Renegade Knight]

....NOOO!!!!! Regardless of if they are there legally or not, you have no right to touch them unless YOU OWN THE PROPERTY!! ...

 

We have a moral obligation to not allow a wrong thing to stand. That would mean remiving the signs and ideally sending them back to their owners saying. "I see you posted land you didn't own in error. I'm returning your sign for your use in posting land you do own."

 

Typically you won't have that much information going in, except you do know it's normally the adjoining land owner's who's underware are all bunched up.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

Also some right of ways are on easements, and the easement is suppose to revert back to the property owner if it is no longer going to be used for what the easement was given for. ( not usually relevant to public roads though.)

This happens quite often. Especially on rural local roads. The roads been there forever and so the roadway agency claimes a prescriptive easment. However the ground belongs to the adjoining land owners and there is no actual recorded easment. Abandonment of the road would result in the ground going to who always had it.

[+Renegade Knight]

I don't see why the reviewer wouldn't beleive you. Just include what you wrote here, along with the names/titles of the people who you sopke with in a "note to reviewer" on the cache page

That's your next step. While not as common as dandylions, it's not unheard of for nearby landowenrs to protect their interests by "extending their influence". We have a war going on in Boise where the Homeowners have refused to let a section of bike path dedicated to public use be used by the public.

[+Bmxer11]

I want to post a cache on a stretch of road near where I live that is no longer maintained by the Department of Transportation.

However, I went to City Hall in my town and asked if the road, which is located between one washed-out bridge and one intentionally-demolished bridge, had reverted back to the ownership of the landowners or if it was still publicly owned.

A man at City Hall referred me to TXDoT (the Texas Department of Transportation), whom I called. She said she knew exactly of the location I was speaking of, and that while the road isn't being maintained, they ALLOW THE ILLEGALLY POSTED NO TRESPASSING SIGNS merely because they serve to prevent vehicular accidents.

However, she said that, technically, THE ROAD LOCATED BETWEEN THE TWO BROKEN BRIDGES IS STILL, TECHNICALLY, OWNED BY TXDOT, AND THERE'S NOTHING ILLEGAL ABOUT WALKING ALONG THE ROAD BECAUSE IT ISN'T ON PRIVATE LAND.

I'm afraid, though, if I hide these caches and put them up for review, there may be a blanket disapproval on all No Trespassing signs, even though the woman at TXDoT told me that LOCAL FARMERS HAD POSTED THE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS TO DETER KIDS WHO COME OUT THERE TO PARTY.

 

Send a note to the reviewer for your area and see whats what, and if he or she will allow you to do it. Or when on the hiding cache page put your story in the note to reviewer box.