DNF log deleted

[+4gc18]

A couple days ago I logged a DNF (frustrating, I know!) Then, a day later the owner deleted my log. Is it just me or are DNF logs valuable? For example, if there are a bunch of DNFs in a row, I usually won't search for the cache unless there has been some sort of update posted confirming the cache has not gone missing. I don't know why this is bothering me but it is! Has anyone else had DNF logs mysteriously deleted with no explanation???

[+mfamilee]

That's a weird one... never heard of that happening before.

 

Not showing previous DNFs on a cache would be very misleading for all the next cachers.

[+WRASTRO]

I had one deleted a couple of years ago. The owner was looney toons and made all sorts of wild claims about being in the know with the folks at GS and being asked to free up server space. It was very irritating and quite comical.

 

I would suggest emailing the owner and asking why your log was deleted. Nicely of course.

[+J-Way]

Some people go to extreme lengths to try and fool the seeker. That includes deleting DNFs to make the cache appear easier to find. Don't know if that is the case here, though. Are there any other DNFs logged on that cache?

[+Knight2000]

As with all logs, sometimes finders say more than the owner would like to hear. We have an underwater cache. I do not like when I find a log that insinuates or straight out talks about the cache being in the water.

[+obxnomad]

As with all logs, sometimes finders say more than the owner would like to hear. We have an underwater cache. I do not like when I find a log that insinuates or straight out talks about the cache being in the water.

 

Just curious, why don't you want to let folks know that the cache is in water?

[+Knight2000]

As with all logs, sometimes finders say more than the owner would like to hear. We have an underwater cache. I do not like when I find a log that insinuates or straight out talks about the cache being in the water.

Just curious, why don't you want to let folks know that the cache is in water?

The same reason you don't tell people where other caches are hidden. If you are around water looking for a cache, typically the water is not the first place you look. (Especially if you have to wade in after it.)

 

If someone tells you where to look it can change the ratings too.

[knowschad]

They deleted your DNF? That's one for the books! Please come back and let us know what you find out from the cache owner!!

 

 

Just curious, why don't you want to let folks know that the cache is in water?

The same reason you don't tell people where other caches are hidden. If you are around water looking for a cache, typically the water is not the first place you look. (Especially if you have to wade in after it.)

 

If someone tells you where to look it can change the ratings too.

 

I'd want to know ahead of time, so that I can dress appropriately. Depending on how much effort it took me to get to the point that I knew it was underwater, I might be rather angry that you didn't tell me ahead of time.

 

Of course, there are different ways of "telling"... I know of one (hi, Bart!) called "Shrinky Dinks"

 

Also, I'm assuming that one needs to enter the water to find your cache. That may not be true, come to think of it.

Edited May 8, 2009 by knowschad

[+The Inkwell]

We've never had that happen to us before...I have to ask, could your DNF log have been considered rude by the cache owner?

[+The Leprechauns]

Here are some choice snippets from the correspondence I enjoyed recently with a cache owner who deletes ALL DNF logs if he checks and discovers that the cache is still there:

 

i checked on the cache,its still there just well hidden so i will not have any DNF'S on my caches as long as i have checked on them and they are still in place.

you go the the GS forums and post anything you want there and whine all you want to,this is what gives geocaching a bad name ppl like you

Well, here's your thread, sir. Have fun playing YOUR game.

[+obxnomad]

As with all logs, sometimes finders say more than the owner would like to hear. We have an underwater cache. I do not like when I find a log that insinuates or straight out talks about the cache being in the water.

Just curious, why don't you want to let folks know that the cache is in water?

The same reason you don't tell people where other caches are hidden. If you are around water looking for a cache, typically the water is not the first place you look. (Especially if you have to wade in after it.)

 

If someone tells you where to look it can change the ratings too.

 

I don't quite see the correlation. Upon arriving at GZ the waypoint SHOULD indicate it's underwater. Why keep it a secret?

[+StarBrand]

Just on the off chance it was a mistake --- did you email the cache owner and ask why it got deleted. Maybe there is a bit more to the story.

[+deercreekth]

Here are some choice snippets from the correspondence I enjoyed recently with a cache owner who deletes ALL DNF logs if he checks and discovers that the cache is still there:

 

i checked on the cache,its still there just well hidden so i will not have any DNF'S on my caches as long as i have checked on them and they are still in place.

you go the the GS forums and post anything you want there and whine all you want to,this is what gives geocaching a bad name ppl like you

Well, here's your thread, sir. Have fun playing YOUR game.

 

That's crazy. You would think the owner would enjoy seeing DNFs since that's a testament to how hard it is to find. Then they could post a note saying they've checked and it's still there so others would know. I saw a cache listing recently for a cache that has never been found. The owner posted a note that said something like "I checked on the cache on 10/17, 10/24, 10/31, 11/7... and it's still there."

[+DavidMac]

As with all logs, sometimes finders say more than the owner would like to hear. We have an underwater cache. I do not like when I find a log that insinuates or straight out talks about the cache being in the water.

 

Does your cache page ask people not to give away details about the manner in which the cache is hidden?

 

Do you delete logs that contain spoilers, or email the finder and ask them to change their log?

[Skippermark]

As with all logs, sometimes finders say more than the owner would like to hear. We have an underwater cache. I do not like when I find a log that insinuates or straight out talks about the cache being in the water.

When we first started, we had a DNF deleted because we said too much, pretty much described the exact hiding spot. I understood why they deleted it after they emailed me, so I re-wrote the DNF saying we looked around, thought we found the hiding spot but couldn't find it.

 

I've wondered if people deleted DNFs from their "hard" caches because I've seen some high difficulty ones that have no DNFs. The logs even say things like "very hard, took 4 trips..." so either people aren't logging their DNFs or someone is deleting them.

 

If they're getting deleted, that's annoying because (as a finder) the DNFs help you either know if the cache might be missing or the cache is hard. If I'm in a hurry and see a 4 with no DNFs, I'm going to assume it's overrated and will stop, but if it's got 40 DNFs and 8 finds, I might not because I might not want to waste my limited time looking for something I probably won't find on the first shot.

[Skippermark]

Here are some choice snippets from the correspondence I enjoyed recently with a cache owner who deletes ALL DNF logs if he checks and discovers that the cache is still there:

 

i checked on the cache,its still there just well hidden so i will not have any DNF'S on my caches as long as i have checked on them and they are still in place.

So, let me get this straight.

 

You go to the cache site and can't find it so you post a DNF saying you "Did Not Find" it and then it gets deleted because it's really there?

 

Does that mean you are supposed to relog it as a find since it's there?

[Trinity's Crew]

Here are some choice snippets from the correspondence I enjoyed recently with a cache owner who deletes ALL DNF logs if he checks and discovers that the cache is still there:

 

i checked on the cache,its still there just well hidden so i will not have any DNF'S on my caches as long as i have checked on them and they are still in place.

you go the the GS forums and post anything you want there and whine all you want to,this is what gives geocaching a bad name ppl like you

Well, here's your thread, sir. Have fun playing YOUR game.

Well he can't delete the "Found It" logs on his ALRs anymore. The poor fella might have snapped if he didn't delete SOMETHING.

[+Knight2000]

I'd want to know ahead of time, so that I can dress appropriately. Depending on how much effort it took me to get to the point that I knew it was underwater, I might be rather angry that you didn't tell me ahead of time.

 

Of course, there are different ways of "telling"... I know of one (hi, Bart!) called "Shrinky Dinks"

 

Also, I'm assuming that one needs to enter the water to find your cache. That may not be true, come to think of it.

Some have retrieved it without getting wet. Other have decided to just get it as they couldnt get it without.

 

There are three obvious clues that it is in the water. Title, attributes, hint. Also it says it is not winter friendly but many are like that.

 

I don't quite see the correlation. Upon arriving at GZ the waypoint SHOULD indicate it's underwater. Why keep it a secret?

Not necessarily. The coords are correct. I did have a cacher tell me that he knew it had to be right near there because "your coords are always accurate." There are many nearby hiding places that are not in the water.

 

How many times have you found a cache that says 30' away? It happens. It is something that we have come to expect, along with incorrect ratings.

 

I have never deleted a log. I have encrypted some and one user edited their log. We had been trading emails anyway.

[+DavidMac]

If they're getting deleted, that's annoying because (as a finder) the DNFs help you either know if the cache might be missing or the cache is hard. If I'm in a hurry and see a 4 with no DNFs, I'm going to assume it's overrated and will stop, but if it's got 40 DNFs and 8 finds, I might not because I might not want to waste my limited time looking for something I probably won't find on the first shot.

 

It's also annoying because I, for one, want to keep an accurate account of my cache history and I consider both finds and DNFs to be part of that. I log alot of DNFs (I'm approaching 300, approximately between 5 and 10% of my number of finds) and to me they tell just as much of a story as my find logs. If I can't find a cache that I have reason to believe is still in place, I usually try to make this clear in my log.

 

I've even had people tell me that they have gone out of their way to find a cache only because I had previously logged a DNF at some point and they wanted to give me a hard time for not being able to find a cache that they could.

[+mcrow]

The only way I'd ever delete any log is if it gave away the exact location of the cache.

[+tozainamboku]

Well he can't delete the "Found It" logs on his ALRs anymore. The poor fella might have snapped if he didn't delete SOMETHING.

The system is set up to give cache owners the responsibility of maintaining quality control of the posts to their cache page. Owners are expected to delete bogus and off topic logs. Certainly this includes log where people are posting spam or where there is inappropriate language. It may also include logs that are falsifying the status of the cache. Generally this applies to someone claiming a find when they didn't find the cache. But I certainly could see that you might want to delete a DNF log that says "Greetings from Germany" where the same person DNF'd caches in five continents on the same day. Finally, most will agree that a cache owner can delete a log with spoilers at least if they allow the person to relog the cache without a spoiler. Even a DNF log may contain a spoiler.

 

With this system there is bound to be some abuse of the privelege. ALR caches began because the owners realized they could delete found it logs so they start requiring all sorts of extras. At first there was no official recognition of these caches. Later, TPTB made the decision to specifically mention this in the guidelines and require ALR caches to be list as unknown. That official recognition that it was not an abuse of the log deletion privilege led to all kinds of ALRs being proposed that TPTB felt were not in the best interest of the game. They tried to come up with a way to define which ALRs were OK and which weren't, but that proved to be too difficult. So instead they changed position and stated that cache owners could not delete logs simply because someone fails to perform and ALR. I still don't know how they plan to enforce this or what sanctions they will take against cache owners who continue to delete logs on their ALRs.

 

It is clear that for now, cache owners can delete any log they want to delete. TPTB are not likely to get involved beyond asking cache owners to not delete logs for spurious reasons. But as the email exchange that Lep posted shows, what Groundspeak or a reviewer feels is a spurious reason may not seem so to the cache owner.

 

I had two DNF logs deleted a couple of years ago. Both by the same cache owner. One was a cache that I later went back and found. I guess the cache owner felt that since I found the cache, my original DNF log was extraneous and was cluttering up his cache page. Many people actually change their original DNF log to a Found It log when the go back and find a cache. The other case was a cache that was missing when I looked for it. After he replaced the missing cache he deleted all the DNFs except the first from the period the cache was missing. Again he felt that the DNFs on the cache other than the first one that informed him there may be a problem were extraneous information that no one would be interested in. I'm surprised he left the first DNF in place since now you could see how long it took him to replace the missing cache. Had he deleted all the DNFs or just kept the last one it would have made it seem like he was doing maintenance on his cache quickly after seeing a DNF or even when there were no DNFs. But instead he kept the first, so my conclusion is that he simply felt there was not any important information in the later DNFs once the cache had been replaced.

Edited May 8, 2009 by tozainamboku

[knowschad]

The only way I'd ever delete any log is if it gave away the exact location of the cache.

 

That's kind of tough to do on a DNF, though

[+mcrow]

The only way I'd ever delete any log is if it gave away the exact location of the cache.

 

That's kind of tough to do on a DNF, though

 

Mmmm......yeah, in other words I was saying that I'd never delete a DNF.

[+Sioneva]

The only way I'd ever delete any log is if it gave away the exact location of the cache.

 

That's kind of tough to do on a DNF, though

 

It's possible. I've done it. When you can see the container, but can't retrieve it - yep.

[+mcrow]

The only way I'd ever delete any log is if it gave away the exact location of the cache.

 

That's kind of tough to do on a DNF, though

 

It's possible. I've done it. When you can see the container, but can't retrieve it - yep.

 

I guess I change my position a little then, in that case I would delete the log.

[Skippermark]

It's also annoying because I, for one, want to keep an accurate account of my cache history and I consider both finds and DNFs to be part of that. I log alot of DNFs (I'm approaching 300, approximately between 5 and 10% of my number of finds) and to me they tell just as much of a story as my find logs. If I can't find a cache that I have reason to believe is still in place, I usually try to make this clear in my log.

We generally log DNFs for caches that we search for and don't find, even if it's a multi and we only got part way through. I think it's fun to go back and look at old DNFs. Some I'm like, "Man, how'd I miss that the first time. It was right in front of me when I went back and found it..."

[Clan Riffster]

Here are some choice snippets from the correspondence I enjoyed recently with a cache owner who deletes ALL DNF logs if he checks and discovers that the cache is still there:

you go the the GS forums and post anything you want there and whine all you want to,this is what gives geocaching a bad name ppl like you

But I thought it was Snoogans who was destined to be the death of geocaching?

[+Max and 99]

I had a DNF deleted that also warned other caches to be careful of the barbed wire on the ground when finding this cache at night (I thought that was a reasonable thing to say). I could not find the cache, but new I'd be back. I emailed the CO after my log was deleted, and he said someone else had been playing with his account and accidentally deleted my log. I decided to let it go rather than re-log.

[+Zop]

A couple days ago I logged a DNF (frustrating, I know!) Then, a day later the owner deleted my log. Is it just me or are DNF logs valuable? For example, if there are a bunch of DNFs in a row, I usually won't search for the cache unless there has been some sort of update posted confirming the cache has not gone missing. I don't know why this is bothering me but it is! Has anyone else had DNF logs mysteriously deleted with no explanation???

 

Since I look at DNFs more of a note to the owner that the cache may be missing, I wouldn't care if one nuked my DNF log. As a cache owner however, I would rather encourage DNF's so I know what's going on out there. No DNF's mean nothing wrong. Unfortunately, some cachers either do not have the confidence to log a DNF or are too proud to admit it.

[+wimseyguy]

I gotta disagree with that position on DNF's. They are simply a recording of a seeker's experience with a certain cache.

However, if there are a series of DNF's on a cache posted by experienced cachers, I'm quite likely to delete that from my route and not waste any precious play time looking for that one when there are plenty of others around. If the CO was deleting those, and I found out post search (by having my DNF deleted) I'd be pretty PO'd at that CO for wasting my time.

 

I don't see a lot of valid reasons for deleting DNF's. I don't see many for deleting finds either.

[+Chrysalides]

If the CO checked and the cache is still there, doesn't it make more sense to post a note or an owner maintenance, rather than delete the DNF logs?

 

I'd trust an owner maintenance log to indicate cache is still there, much more than I trust a DNF to indicate cache is missing, anyway.

 

By the way, if a DNF or a note is deleted, do you get a notification e-mail too?

[+Knight2000]

The only way I'd ever delete any log is if it gave away the exact location of the cache.

 

That's kind of tough to do on a DNF, though

 

It's possible. I've done it. When you can see the container, but can't retrieve it - yep.

I had few of those on my underwater cache.

[+Shadowraven]

Since I look at DNFs more of a note to the owner that the cache may be missing, I wouldn't care if one nuked my DNF log. As a cache owner however, I would rather encourage DNF's so I know what's going on out there. No DNF's mean nothing wrong. Unfortunately, some cachers either do not have the confidence to log a DNF or are too proud to admit it.

 

That's us, we don't always have the confidence to log a DNF. When we were first caching we thought owners would get mad. We figured they'd check on the cache, see that it was still there, and be like "hey dummy, it's there!" Of course we figured the "dummy" part would be all in fun, but we worried that COs would find us a nuissance. There were a few DNFs we didn't log. Since then we are still hesitant to DNF. Most of the time we do (only because we want it for our records). There have been a couple times where we've posted a note instead (usually if we think our search was problematic because of US for whatever reason or if we plan to return within a short time and try again).

[+beejay&esskay]

 

By the way, if a DNF or a note is deleted, do you get a notification e-mail too?

 

Yes, you get a notification if any log you made is deleted.

 

I had a DNF deleted once. It was a "I can see it but can't get it out" type of DNF. The owner felt I gave too much away. I relogged with less information and that DNF remains.

 

So far I haven't had the type of experience Leprechauns had. If I knew ahead of time, I'd avoid cache owners that delete DNFs, since I log every unsuccessful search and want that history to remain.

[+4gc18]

Just to reply - I don't think my post was rude. Just said that I had no luck and was disappointed because I wanted to get my hands on the TB in the cache - its goal was to get to Ann Arbor and I am attending graduate school at the U of Michigan in the fall (which is in Ann Arbor)! However, the owner is fairly new to caching and has multiple hides, all with NO DNFs...hmmm...I see a trend here so i'm thinking it's not personal!!

Edited May 11, 2009 by 4gc18

[+Kryten]

I deleted a DNF from a newbie which said "last cache of the day, too tired to climb the wall so didn't bother". I didn't want people to start climbing the wall, the landowner doesn't like it, and anyway there's a perfectly good gate. Sent e-mail to explain.

[knowschad]

I deleted a DNF from a newbie which said "last cache of the day, too tired to climb the wall so didn't bother". I didn't want people to start climbing the wall, the landowner doesn't like it, and anyway there's a perfectly good gate. Sent e-mail to explain.

 

Wouldn't a note added to the cache following the DNF have served better to keep people from climbing the wall? Anyone that read his DNF would also have read your note. By deleting the DNF log and not posting a note, you are leaving it wide open for future finders to also climb the wall.

[keldar]

 

I've wondered if people deleted DNFs from their "hard" caches because I've seen some high difficulty ones that have no DNFs. The logs even say things like "very hard, took 4 trips..." so either people aren't logging their DNFs or someone is deleting them.

 

I sure hope people do not hesitate to post DNF's. As a relatively new hider, I am looking for DNF's to tell me whether to check on it, adjust it's rating, adjust it's hiding spot, and gauge the fun factor. I will never get things right if I don't have a whole, true picture of what's going on for searchers.

 

Folks.....post your DNF's. They are your friends. They will help the cache owners make this more fun for everyone.

[+bflentje]

Of course, there are different ways of "telling"... I know of one (hi, Bart!) called "Shrinky Dinks"