lakeuk Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Seems the Royal Navy use the same GPS that I use - Garmin Legend http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6501555.stm Link to comment
+rutson Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Errr... why do they need a hand help unit, surely the choppers have a GPS system??? Link to comment
+Bear and Ragged Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Someone set to the wrong datum? (I'm sure our boys -and girls- have the correct datum set!) G Link to comment
+Papakas Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Surely they would have known which side of the border they were on from the broken red line on the surface of the water? Link to comment
+Mad H@ter Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Errr... why do they need a hand help unit, surely the choppers have a GPS system??? British Aerospace/Marconni/Racal/Thales are still developing/fixing/modifying the integrated GPS system or There was no room for the integrated GPS as they chose the delux ICE system with big base unit in boot Link to comment
+Bear and Ragged Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Surely they would have known which side of the border they were on from the broken red line on the surface of the water? Depends which way you come from, as to it being on your left or right! Link to comment
+Kryten Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 (edited) Signal strength looks a bit dodgy for the open sea and why are they viewing the "Noddy" satellite page. edited to say oops it's the decent satellite page Edited March 28, 2007 by McKryton Link to comment
+careygang Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Signal strength looks a bit dodgy for the open sea and why are they viewing the "Noddy" satellite page. Crewman probably hasn't worked out how to change the display. My son confused me when I found mine set like that one day. I'd never seen that screen before and I had to work out how to get the little man back! Link to comment
+The Forester Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 (edited) I've got a question for Legend users: Does that screenshot show the time/date of the fix? I've had a look at the exif metadata of that jpeg and it shows that the image was made by Photoshop Version 7.0 at 09:54:36 (BST?) this morning. Are we supposed to be as impressed with this piece of evidence as we were about the incontrovertible evidence that Iraq was stuffed full of weapons of mass destruction prior to being "liberated"? Edited March 28, 2007 by The Forester Link to comment
+The Forester Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 (edited) Hee hee hee! Like many other geocachers, when I see co-ords I like to plot them on a good map or georeferenced satellite image to see the area and exact location that is being quoted. For that reason I plotted the Navy's Lat/Long onto the MicroStiff VirtualEarth. If you tilt your screen and/or play around with the image contrast on your monitor, you can actually see the seabed contours in this image. Those contours are highly relevant to the question of whose territorial waters were trangresssed by whom. In that part of the world, the international boundary between Iran and Iraq runs along what is called the thalweg. That just a fancy name for the middle of the river outflow's meandering course. The boundary runs along the centreline of the Shatt-el-Arab's course, not equidistant between its shorelines. For that reason, until recent troubles, there was an annual survey of the Shatt, all the way out to the conventional 12 mile territorial limit, to delineate exactly where the thalweg was at that time. Every two years or so, the surveys were used in bilateral conferences to re-demarcate the boundary between the two neighbours. Good fences making good neighbours an' all that. Take a gander at the latest(?) satellite picture and use your eye to follow what you think is the centreline of the NorthWest_to_SouthEast course of the deepest part of the outflowing Shatt. That is the bilaterally agreed (between the DeFacto governments of Iraq and Iran) boundary between Iranian and Iraqi territorial waters. Make your own mind up as to whether the little white cross at the RN Garmin GPS position of the dhow (if that deck is really a dhow) is on the Iranian or the Iraqi side of the centreline of that thalweg! Edited March 28, 2007 by The Forester Link to comment
+jerryo Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Hardly surprising that there are only four caches in Iran considering how inaccurate the latest GPS readings seem to be from their government. And the only one cache of these four that was found was discovered by accident! <ducks> Link to comment
+The Forester Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 I must put my hand up in the air and admit a certain amount of guilt there! In 1985 during the IranIraq war, I was instrumental (no pun intended) in importing to Iran's Northern Gulf coast a NavStar GPSr for high-accuracy measurement of 'stuff' for defence work which was intended to make the Iraqi airforce/USnavy attacks against Iranian exports from Kharg Island more difficult. An irony was that I was working for a very Murricane company (Dick Cheney's favourite!) at the time. All open and above board, 'guv, honest! Link to comment
+sTeamTraen Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 There was an episode of the Gadget Show a few months back that compared a map, a basic GPS, and a 60csx for getting around. One of the comments on the 60csx was "this is what the SAS use". No idea if that's true. Link to comment
+Bear and Ragged Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 I've had a look at the exif metadata of that jpeg and it shows that the image was made by Photoshop Version 7.0 at 09:54:36 (BST?) this morning. That'll be when the BBC worked on the photo to "size it down" for the web. G Link to comment
Edgemaster Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 There was an episode of the Gadget Show a few months back that compared a map, a basic GPS, and a 60csx for getting around. One of the comments on the 60csx was "this is what the SAS use". No idea if that's true. Really? I thought they may have had a more advanced model, well, the US army certainly have - it being their system and all, they may share? Link to comment
+Haggis Hunter Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Make your own mind up as to whether the little white cross at the RN Garmin GPS position of the dhow (if that deck is really a dhow) is on the Iranian or the Iraqi side of the centreline of that thalweg! It's quite difficult to tell from that image, but I would say it was bang in the middle? Our government are saying that they where 1.7nautical miles from Iranian water. On that map it is difficult to gauge that in my opinion! Link to comment
+purple_pineapple Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 as Ian said, I expect the choppers have GPS - although it could be a StreetPilot i3 attached to the windscreen - our one has a very amusing habit of taking us the wrong way! Link to comment
+purple_pineapple Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 as Ian said, I expect the choppers have GPS - although it could be a StreetPilot i3 attached to the windscreen - our one has a very amusing habit of taking us the wrong way! Link to comment
Edgemaster Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 (edited) Hee hee hee! Like many other geocachers, when I see co-ords I like to plot them on a good map or georeferenced satellite image to see the area and exact location that is being quoted. For that reason I plotted the Navy's Lat/Long onto the MicroStiff VirtualEarth. If you tilt your screen and/or play around with the image contrast on your monitor, you can actually see the seabed contours in this image. Those contours are highly relevant to the question of whose territorial waters were trangresssed by whom. I think your coordinates are wrong. From the BBC video on the quoted site above, the MOD note 29 50.36N 048 43.08E which actually is here. (it's only a slight difference, but looks nearer the Iraqi side) Also, how old are the satellite images there? As you note, the borders often change. The coordinates in the image differ from those quoted. The image is probably just used (MOD website) as a clear representation. They note a landing craft was tracked by the HMS Cornwall with GPS, and the data was logged/mapped there. Edited March 28, 2007 by Edgemaster Link to comment
fraggle69 Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 They had no reason to be there, there are no geocaches at sea in that area. Any excuse for a fight eh Is it coz I is british, does my GPS look bovered. Link to comment
+The Forester Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Errr... why do they need a hand help unit, surely the choppers have a GPS system??? The aircraft does have a GPS input to the inertial reference system, but that display is down low on a console between the two pilots. The propaganda photograph seems to have been taken purely for propaganda purposes, not as part of any actual military mission. There are several reasons why I don't believe that the photograph is anything like the incontrovertible proof that the gumment promised. I can't see any Iranian military vessels in the picture, nor even either of the two Marine rigid raiders. If the GPS imagery is purported to be relevant to the incident, I'd expect there to be some evidence visible in the picture. The target ship had two lighters (shallow draft barges) tied up alongside her at the time of being boarded by the Marines. I see no lighters in the image either. So, the picture doesn't show the time or the place of the incident. What does it show? Not much, I think. I guess we shouldn't expect much from the people who gave us the incontrovertible evidence of the Uranium shipments and the mobile anthrax laboratories and the babies being torn out of Kuwaiti hospital incubators and all that guff. Link to comment
+The Forester Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 I think your coordinates are wrong. Quite apart from the fact that the co-ords are not in any way my co-ords, they are the co-ords shown on the Garmin. You are quite right that there's something fishy about those co-ords. There's a bust of 823m (that's about half a mile, in old money) between the co-ords reported to/by la belle Beckett and the co-ords shown on the screen of that Garmin. As evidence of whether the Royal Navy/Marines assault craft entered Iranian waters or not, the picture is totally useless and quite misleading. Link to comment
+Brenin Tegeingl Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 As evidence of whether the Royal Navy/Marines assault craft entered Iranian waters or not, the picture is totally useless and quite misleading. Has the UK Government ever claimed that the photograph is part of the evidence that they are presenting to the Iranian Government, or to our NATO Partners and the UN? As the Government has declared, the Helicopter after doing a check on the location. Declaring it to be in Iraqi Territorial Waters, and the vessel being stationary. Meaning as far as the C&C were concerned it was a routine search, moved away from the location to carry on patrolling. As they were not even at the location when the incident took place, obviously it's a picture of the boat or even taken at the time of the incident. It has been used as a example, probably so that more people viewing it will understand about the reference to GPS positioning. As a picture of the console would mean nothing to the majority viewing it. Link to comment
+Boardslider Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 It's at times like this that we need a sort of Ben Elton for the noughties: "So, they weren't trespassing illegally in Iranian waters; they clearly in Iraqi waters - a perfectly legitimate place for the British military" Link to comment
+rogerncook Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 I think as a tax payer, they should have the GPSr in an Aquapac in case they drop it in to the Gulf out of the helicopter door, but those gloves look good for finding caches hidden in the WMD's or in the brambles. Best of wishes to our lads and girl... Link to comment
+The Forester Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Has the UK Government ever claimed that the photograph is part of the evidence that they are presenting to the Iranian Government, or to our NATO Partners and the UN? Yes. As the Government has declared, the Helicopter after doing a check on the location. Declaring it to be in Iraqi Territorial Waters, and the vessel being stationary. Meaning as far as the C&C were concerned it was a routine search, moved away from the location to carry on patrolling. I don't understand quite what you are trying to say. Clearly, from the half mile discrepancy between the two sets of co-ortdinates issued by the FO/MoD, the inspected vessel had moved in the couple of days between the incident and the "evidential" photograph. What use is the photograph? It quite certainly doesn't indicate the position of either the Iranian boats or the RN/RM ones. It does nothing whatsoever to refute the Iranian claim the the RIBs strayed into the Iranian side of the boundary line. In fact, if anything the photograph suggest that the Brit side has an embarassing paucity of GPS tracking data with which to refute the Iranian allegation that our side strayed onto their side. There is no doubt whatsoever that Cornwall's surveillance radar data tapes will have recorded the positions of all of the six Iranian gunboats as well as the two Marine RIBs throughout the whole of the incident. The MoD presentation conspicuously omits the track taken by the RIBs when travelling from the mothership (Cornwall) to the target cargovessel. It simply plots the posiition of Cornwall and the position of the anchored "dhow". In lieu of tracking data, they simply published the rather lame and quite irrelevant GPS photo taken from the cabin door of the ship's Lynx. If the MoD was comfortable with the track taken by the boarding party, they would no doubt have shown that track and demonstrated its innocence. I think Whitehall has shot itself in the foot with that picture of the Garmin. They also grossly overstated the significance of the one digit typo in the Iranian Latitude, as if it in some way proves the innocence of the boarding party. Thus far there has been a lot of bluster from Beckett and Browne. Too much, perhaps. Even a simple matter such as where the detainees are being held became a very silly and petulant demand that Iran declare the location. You really don't need to have done the long course at Fort Monckton (I haven't!) to deduce that they are being held at Evin nick. Link to comment
+Brenin Tegeingl Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Forrester the Government have issued a statement that the Helicopter went to the location of the vessel and as it was stationary did not stay in the location whilst the search and subsequent incident took place, so would be unable to provide real time photographs of the vessels. If they had been on location at the time, the crew would hardly have had the time to take photographs showing someone in the doorway with a hand held GPS. As the Helicopter is fitted with Military GPS systems, I'm guessing that they are using the Data from that to present evidence to all Governments and the UN. And not a picture of a civilian hand held GPS, take several days after the incident. Obviously they are not going to make public the exact information apart from the coordinates of the vessel, to the general public. What use is the photograph? It quite certainly doesn't indicate the position of either the Iranian boats or the RN/RM ones. It does nothing whatsoever to refute the Iranian claim the the RIBs strayed into the Iranian side of the boundary line. Nor does a photograph taken days later prove the Iranian case. And considering the seriousness of the incident, surly the Iranians would have proof read any message containing what they claim is reliant details to insure that there was no Typos before sending? And strictly my personal opinion, your taking your usual Anti Authority stance what ever the facts. Link to comment
+dino-irl Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Who Cares?????????????????????????????????????? Link to comment
Lactodorum Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 To qualify as a relevant thread in this Geocaching forum I reckon the discussion should focus on the use/misuse of the GPSr, its coordinates etc. I don't think this is an appropriate place for discussing the rights/wrongs of the current conflict/war/situation/jihad or whatever. Even though the sun is shining outside my window and the beach is beckoning for one last day I shall keep my eye on this one. Link to comment
+Us 4 and Jess Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Who Cares?????????????????????????????????????? I find that quite upsetting I think a lot of people care, maybe I have misinterpreted what you mean maybe you mean who cares about the co-ordinates and if you do then I appologise. I was at my inlaws for tea on Sunday and my hubbys brother and Sister in law were there too, our Sis IL's daughter and son in law are both in the Royal Navy, her daughter has just had a baby and is on shore leave but her husbands ship is HMS Cornwall (the ship the party that were arrested came from) he luckily was on shore leave too last week as he was doing a course of some kind, but they were saying if he was on his ship he would almost certainly have been in the search party, and those peole taken will be his friends. So as I said earlier a huge amount of people do care Again if I have misinterpreted what you meant I do appologise Mandy Link to comment
+dino-irl Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Who Cares?????????????????????????????????????? I find that quite upsetting I think a lot of people care, maybe I have misinterpreted what you mean maybe you mean who cares about the co-ordinates and if you do then I appologise. I meant who cares about the photo and the BBC article that spawned this hugely OT discussion. The fate of the sailors and marines is of course worrying but hardly topical discussion for this forum ps. no offence taken here. I've noticed that people with relatives/friends in the Armed Forces are very sensitive at any perceived criticism of their activities, etc. I have a feeling it's to do with the unpopularity of the conflict, and probably very understandable. Also very OT for this forum though so I'll shut up now Link to comment
+Us 4 and Jess Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Who Cares?????????????????????????????????????? I find that quite upsetting I think a lot of people care, maybe I have misinterpreted what you mean maybe you mean who cares about the co-ordinates and if you do then I appologise. I meant who cares about the photo and the BBC article that spawned this hugely OT discussion. The fate of the sailors and marines is of course worrying but hardly topical discussion for this forum ps. no offence taken here. I've noticed that people with relatives/friends in the Armed Forces are very sensitive at any perceived criticism of their activities, etc. I have a feeling it's to do with the unpopularity of the conflict, and probably very understandable. Also very OT for this forum though so I'll shut up now Thank you for your reply and for explaining what you meant Mandy Link to comment
+The Forester Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Blair/Browne/Beckett's worst nightmare has come to pass. The Pasdaran confiscated at least one Garmin Legend from the Navy/Marines and they've found that the waypoint and track data had not been deleted. They've downloaded the data and plotted it on a chart. Yes, the data really does appear to back up what the Iranians have been claiming and it appears that at least one of the attack craft really had strayed into Iranian waters. That daft photo of the Magellan Legend in the doorway of the Lynx has backfired on Whitehall in a really big way. They thought that it would be a clever distraction from the actual track of the RN/RM launches, but it has merely legitimised the Iranian claim that the identical GPSr now in Iranian hands is a genuine record of the craft's track. In an Arabic language press conference a Pasdaran officer shows the plot and says that the data recorded a 450 metre excursion into Iranian waters. As for the Lynx being unable to photograph the incident: that now looks a bit lame in view of the footage of the helicopter which is clearly taken from one of the Iranian launches and clearly shows at least one of the RN/RM launches. What is unclear from the Iranian video of the event is why the two British launches appear to have become separated from eachother. In the soundtrack you can clearly hear a British-sounding voice saying something less than complimentary about the people in the other British craft. It's a phrase which is not allowable in this forum, but alludes to what type of heads they have. There is clearly an object lesson in this development: if you want to deny where you've been, then for goodness sake delete the tracklog in your GPSr before doing so! Link to comment
dodgydaved Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Blair/Browne/Beckett's worst nightmare has come to pass. The Pasdaran confiscated at least one Garmin Legend from the Navy/Marines and they've found that the waypoint and track data had not been deleted. They've downloaded the data and plotted it on a chart. Yes, the data really does appear to back up what the Iranians have been claiming and it appears that at least one of the attack craft really had strayed into Iranian waters. That daft photo of the Magellan Legend in the doorway of the Lynx has backfired on Whitehall in a really big way. They thought that it would be a clever distraction from the actual track of the RN/RM launches, but it has merely legitimised the Iranian claim that the identical GPSr now in Iranian hands is a genuine record of the craft's track. In an Arabic language press conference a Pasdaran officer shows the plot and says that the data recorded a 450 metre excursion into Iranian waters. As for the Lynx being unable to photograph the incident: that now looks a bit lame in view of the footage of the helicopter which is clearly taken from one of the Iranian launches and clearly shows at least one of the RN/RM launches. What is unclear from the Iranian video of the event is why the two British launches appear to have become separated from eachother. In the soundtrack you can clearly hear a British-sounding voice saying something less than complimentary about the people in the other British craft. It's a phrase which is not allowable in this forum, but alludes to what type of heads they have. There is clearly an object lesson in this development: if you want to deny where you've been, then for goodness sake delete the tracklog in your GPSr before doing so! Hi Chris, I just slipped my other hat on for a bit. Lacto has asked that this thread keep more geocachical and less political. I agree. You, of course, are entitled to your own opinion about the current government's way of handling things. You are entitled to call our freinds across the Atlantic "Murricanes" in your rather condescending way. But why here? If you spoke, at length, like that in my local club or pub you would be told, eventually, to shut up as others were in there for a quiet drink. Well I, for one, am in the geocaching forum for a quiet read about geocaching, and perhaps a little light relief (even if a bit OT). I am not here to keep hearing a political diatribe. Please could you go into a more appropriate forum to air your views and not keep putting them in my view. Many Thanks! Dave Link to comment
+JollyJax Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Now that all our moderators have spoken either as themselves or their Moderation heads on ... please consider this a request for information on how i can make a formal complaint about the content and nature of some of this thread. It is neither about geocaching nor about the past time in this country. I thought this was a forum about UK Geocaching and I personally find some of the veiws exressed here deeply offensive. Link to comment
Lactodorum Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Now that all our moderators have spoken either as themselves or their Moderation heads on ... please consider this a request for information on how i can make a formal complaint about the content and nature of some of this thread. It is neither about geocaching nor about the past time in this country. I thought this was a forum about UK Geocaching and I personally find some of the veiws exressed here deeply offensive. I think the time has come to draw a line under this discussion. What was a discussion about the use of GPS data has widened beyond the scope of this forum. I am therefore closing it. Thanks for the contributions. Link to comment
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