signing the log

[+chukkar]

I have been threatened by a cache owner to have my cache find deleted because I did not sign the logbook. The cache is in a high position and was awkward for me to remove. I could feel it, but not quite grasp it, so logged it that way. I have over 500 finds and this is the first time I have ever heard any complaints like this. What is the general feeling on this?

[+KoosKoos]

I've allowed a couple of people to count finds on one of my caches where people had trouble holding onto it (it was hung in a pipe and kept dropping to the bottom). The few times it happened, they asked me first, and I told them to go ahed and count the find.

 

However, I personally hold to the "if my name isn't signed, it's no find" creed, so I can back up an owner who doesn't agree that you can count this for a smiley.

[+FamilyDNA]

Some cache owners would let it slide, but if you did not actually retrieve the cache the owner is within his rights to tell you to log it as a DNF.

 

Call a tall friend and plan another visit.

[+GoBolts!]

If you don't sign the log you did not find the cache.

[+Sagefox]

I have been threatened by a cache owner to have my cache find deleted because I did not sign the logbook. The cache is in a high position and was awkward for me to remove. I could feel it, but not quite grasp it, so logged it that way. I have over 500 finds and this is the first time I have ever heard any complaints like this. What is the general feeling on this?

 

A few months ago, as another example, we found a cache by gps coordinates and did not have access to the cache page. I was pleased that we found the container without any clues or descriptions but then discovered that it had a padlock on it. The combination was on the cache page. Even with the container in our hands I didn't claim that as a find because I could not get at the logbook.

 

If there is a logbook then it should be signed before claiming a find. There are a few conditions where it would be ok to log as found without signing: logbook too wet & moldy, logbook not in the cache, the logbook is jambed in the container or the container lid is unintentionally jambed shut, etc. But if the container is too high to reach as you mentioned then it is part of the "difficulty factor" that you must overcome in order to qualify for a find. Some owners would allow your find to stand but many won't.

 

I consider these caches to be a challenge and people should come back with a step stool, ladder or their tallest friend, or back a pickup truck to the hiding place. I once climbed on top of our camper van. A more common method perhaps is to get a retrieval tool.

Edited November 20, 2006 by Team Sagefox

[+FamilyDNA]

Was the cache page recently edited? It does state quite clearly that the logbook must be signed.

[adampierson]

In general, if the cache logbook isn't signed then a find can't be logged. There are always exceptions, but ultimately the cache owner decides, IMO.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

"Found it" has a different meaning here than in the real world. Perhaps the cache owner in question got his training here!

 

Anywhere else "found it" means that you found something. You are walking along and see a dollar bill on the ground, you found it. You set off to a destination you have never been to and get there, you found it. Someone hides something, you go to the hide location and see it, you found it.

 

Here, however, found it has extra connotations!

 

Here it means that you not only found it, but then you complied with a bunch of rules and expectations. Here found it means that you also opened the container and signed the log.

 

I got educated on "found it" and its special meaning here the hard way, when I found a bunch of caches with some friends. We had the caches in hand, and in the interest of saving time we signed the containers with a marker and replaced them. The community here was quick to decree that we had not in fact found the cache, even though we had it in our hands! We wrote on the darn thing, how could they deny that we found it?

 

It took me a while to figure out that they weren't really saying I hadn't found it, the fact that I had found it was undeniable - they were saying that as I had not complied with the open-and-sign expectation that I could not claim it as a find, a whole different thing than whether I found it or not.

 

Back in the real world found it means that you found it if you say you found it... here you had better have physical proof in the form of a signed (not stickered or stamped) log or someone is likely to tell you that you in fact did not find it.

 

Here what you find had better have a blessed listing page, unlike a pocket cache, for you to find it!

 

Luckily we cache in the real world, where folks understand what found it means, as it has meant throughout the history of the phrase... where "found it" simply means that you found something!

 

I would write the owner a note asking them to explain how seeing something is not finding it, let them jump through hoops trying to relate finding it to the seperate and unrelated issue of signing it. It may not get your log back but it should be entertaining!

 

Perhaps we need to change the name to "Signed It", as that is clearly what is meant here by "Found it".

 

Ed

[+Bad_CRC]

I'd go back and take the log book as a trade item.

 

 

 

 

(no don't do that obviously, but it'd be funny to me if an owner was being a jerk.)

[+fabasard]

I say if you put your eyes on it, and COULD get to it, thats as good as a find. I have been in places where muggles abound and put my eyes on a cache and COULD have grabbed it, but since I didn't want to be questioned I left it alone. I signed a find and went on, possession is 9/10 of the law and if I could possess it, then its mine. Now if its out of reach and I couldnt get to it, well, thats a DNF

[+kc8bdr]

Twice this summer I found caches hidden in bushes. Both times there were others in the area I did not reach for either cache at that moment I elected to post a DNF each time. I did return to sign both log books on days when it was cold and raining to sign the logs.

 

I also found a cache that had a soaked log book, I carry a hand full of replacement log books I grabbed one of them signed it and tossed it in the cache before heading home to log on line.

 

Jim

Kc8bdr

[+BelKen]

The mimimum requirement for a geocache is a logbook.

 

You can wander about and fondle as many containers as you want that may be called container molestation. You may be able to wander about and see as many containers as you like. That is close to another game called eye spy.

 

If you want a smiley find a cache and write in the logbook. Thats called geocaching.

[+briansnat]

I have been threatened by a cache owner to have my cache find deleted because I did not sign the logbook. The cache is in a high position and was awkward for me to remove. I could feel it, but not quite grasp it, so logged it that way. I have over 500 finds and this is the first time I have ever heard any complaints like this. What is the general feeling on this?

 

I would not count that as a find.

Edited November 20, 2006 by briansnat

[Mushtang]

I'd go back and take the log book as a trade item.

(no don't do that obviously, but it'd be funny to me if an owner was being a jerk.)

So if the owner of a cache is following the rules of the site, he's being a jerk? And if you steal his property, you're being funny?

 

Strange way to look at things. I'm glad you're not hunting caches around mine on a regular basis.

[+emurock]

I have been threatened by a cache owner to have my cache find deleted because I did not sign the logbook. The cache is in a high position and was awkward for me to remove. I could feel it, but not quite grasp it, so logged it that way. I have over 500 finds and this is the first time I have ever heard any complaints like this. What is the general feeling on this?

 

A few months ago, as another example, we found a cache by gps coordinates and did not have access to the cache page. I was pleased that we found the container without any clues or descriptions but then discovered that it had a padlock on it. The combination was on the cache page. Even with the container in our hands I didn't claim that as a find because I could not get at the logbook.

 

If there is a logbook then it should be signed before claiming a find. There are a few conditions where it would be ok to log as found without signing: logbook too wet & moldy, logbook not in the cache, the logbook is jambed in the container or the container lid is unintentionally jambed shut, etc. But if the container is too high to reach as you mentioned then it is part of the "difficulty factor" that you must overcome in order to qualify for a find. Some owners would allow your find to stand but many won't.

 

I consider these caches to be a challenge and people should come back with a step stool, ladder or their tallest friend, or back a pickup truck to the hiding place. I once climbed on top of our camper van. A more common method perhaps is to get a retrieval tool.

I think you nail it. I have had time's when I have the cache in hands but could not sign the loglook.

Edited November 20, 2006 by emurock

[+briansnat]

Found it" has a different meaning here than in the real world. Perhaps the cache owner in question got his training here! Anywhere else "found it" means that you found something. You are walking along and see a dollar bill on the ground, you found it. You set off to a destination you have never been to and get there, you found it. Someone hides something, you go to the hide location and see it, you found it.

 

Since most of the forum participants are also geocachers, to claim that the opinions here do not reflect the "real world" is ludicrous.

 

The difference between geocaching and finding a dollar bill on the street is that geocaching is more than just the serendipitous finding of an object. The caches are placed with logbooks inside for a reason. They are not just there to soak up water. The presumption is that the finder will sign the logbook as proof he found the cache.

 

I realize that in some regions there are different mores. Apparently in your area you only have to see the cache to claim the find. I know that in some areas logging a "find" doesn't even include finding a geocache.

Where I do my geocaching however, the expectation is that you find a cache AND sign the logbook in order to claim a find. It's no less the "real world" than your supposed "real world".

 

In fact I venture to say that the requirement of signing the logbook is more the norm that your version of the sport. This website has said for as long as I can remember:

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

I can assure you that in the "real world" many (if not most) cache owners expect you to sign the logbook.

Edited November 20, 2006 by briansnat

[+mgbmusic]

I have been threatened by a cache owner to have my cache find deleted because I did not sign the logbook. The cache is in a high position and was awkward for me to remove. I could feel it, but not quite grasp it, so logged it that way. I have over 500 finds and this is the first time I have ever heard any complaints like this. What is the general feeling on this?

 

I would not count that as a find.

 

It's interesting you mention that one, b/c a previous log entry (or maybe one after wards) reads:

 

May 15, 2004

We found this one after the southern one...however, I would not stick my hand in there...and Tom's hand was a bit too large so he put just his fingers in, swished around a bit of water (which was brown) and felt it...but then it slipped away...he used a stick and after prodding for ten minutes in the brown water and trying with his fingers again, he was afraid he had pushed it a bit further down and to the side...since he didn't want it to be forever lost, he stopped short of signing the log...it's still there...sitting in the brown water...oh, and did I mention the water was brown? Thanks for two caches after the fair.

 

So who's right? My vote goes to the cache owner. Possession is 9/10's and the owner, by definition possesses it. Just my 2 cents. On a side note I logged a FTF today, but as I was hiking back from the cache, I realized that I don't remember ACTUALLY signing my name. I wrote in the log, so by any standard it seems I passed that requirement. I'll stop by sometime in the future and double check that my name's still there, but I still get the FTF.

 

--MGB

Edited November 20, 2006 by mgbmusic

[+Isonzo Karst]

It's definitely cache owner's rules. As the cache owner has already contacted you there's really no debate. Post a note, or a DNF - not a find. I will say it can be annoying to have a cache seriously mis-rated. Rated 1.5 (as I've seen) and the cache is clearly visible, but a climb up a tree. I always log whiny DNFS on those guys (really whiny). If the rating was 3.5 or 4 (to reflect "use of hands" per the Clayjar rating system I'll log an UNwhiny DNF - I'm not much of a climber, but I won't complain about a correctly rated cache, just DNF it.

[+biosearch]

Okay, so I'm new, but....

 

I think that signing the log is a good thing. It proves that you were there and you did what you said that you did.

 

However, I have a lot of experience with disabilities... If I were a cache owner and someone wrote to me and said, "I found it, but couldn't reach it" I'd have to think to myself, "Self, they went and looked for it, but something prevented them from getting it when they found it." "And self" says I "there are things that limit people from being able to do the same sorts of things that others do, but we don't want to exclude them from the game do we?"

 

Now of course there will be those that disagree, that is what the world is all about after all, differences. Differences in viewpoints, differences in backgrounds, differences in abilities.... but having lived with crap for many years, being kept out of things that I used to do, not being able to get around well, having to depend upon other people, I'll be damned if I get to a cache, can't get to it because of something that I have no control over, and be told that I can't log that as a find.

 

It is easy to make these decisions when you're on the other side of the fence.

 

This is a non competitive sport, an all inclusive sort of thing, something fun.... Isn't it?

[+two left feet]

I sometimes place as many as 2 "decoy" caches on a really hard location with a note saying they are not the real cache. Just because you see what looks to be a cache container does not mean it is the real one. It may just have a note that says "keep looking". So how do you know you found the cache without opening it up?

[+sbell111]

Okay, so I'm new, but....

 

I think that signing the log is a good thing. It proves that you were there and you did what you said that you did.

 

However, I have a lot of experience with disabilities... If I were a cache owner and someone wrote to me and said, "I found it, but couldn't reach it" I'd have to think to myself, "Self, they went and looked for it, but something prevented them from getting it when they found it." "And self" says I "there are things that limit people from being able to do the same sorts of things that others do, but we don't want to exclude them from the game do we?"

 

Now of course there will be those that disagree, that is what the world is all about after all, differences. Differences in viewpoints, differences in backgrounds, differences in abilities.... but having lived with crap for many years, being kept out of things that I used to do, not being able to get around well, having to depend upon other people, I'll be damned if I get to a cache, can't get to it because of something that I have no control over, and be told that I can't log that as a find.

 

It is easy to make these decisions when you're on the other side of the fence.

 

This is a non competitive sport, an all inclusive sort of thing, something fun.... Isn't it?

Having been on both sides of that fence, I firmly believe that the 'disability' argument for allowing such a find is a red herring. No one is able to log all caches, that is one reason that it is very good that we have terrain ratings. If this one were rated 1.0, I would argue that the rating should be changed. It is not, so I don't believe that the 'disability' argument is appropriate.

[+biosearch]

Having been on both sides of that fence, I firmly believe that the 'disability' argument for allowing such a find is a red herring. No one is able to log all caches, that is one reason that it is very good that we have terrain ratings. If this one were rated 1.0, I would argue that the rating should be changed. It is not, so I don't believe that the 'disability' argument is appropriate.

Red herring.... Logical fallacy.... hmmmm

 

The cache is rated as a difficulty level 1 and a terrain level 2.

 

Since this incident arose the (the log in question was made Nov 12) the owner posted this message (on Nov 19)

 

November 19 by Lil Devil (4154 found)

The basic tenets of geocaching are: Take something, leave something, and sign the logbook. You can just take a breath and leave footprints, but you must sign the logbook.

 

I will periodically check the logbook and any online logs that are not in the logbook will be deleted.

 

For some people this may be a terrain five cache. Come prepared or come back.

If it is a Terrain level five, mark it as such. If it is a terrain level 2 mark it as such. Which is it?

 

And no, the disability issue is never a red herring. I am assuming that you are, by the insignia I see, military sbell. I pray that you are not effected by your service as others have been and will continue to be.

 

The disability issue is one that can be difficult to deal with. Disabilities range in many ways. A wheelchair bound individual may be able to get to some caches and not others. A person missing a limb may be able to ignore the "no disabilities" marker and still get to the cache. It is difficult to say. And what a cache owner sees as not being restricted by disabilities may very well be extremely difficult for some people. If an individual comes within distance of reaching the cache, being able to see it, but not be able to touch it what harm is there.

 

Are we that eaten up by this that we can't say that this is fine. This is supposed to be a fun, or I thought it was. Did I misunderstand the whole purpose of this? I'm confused, and the more that I read the forums, and I suppose that I should not, the more discouraged I become that the group of people who take part in this are so obsessed by this that they can not see the line where fun breaks off and stupidity begins.

 

Perhaps I should just stop reading the forums?

[+tozainamboku]

On this week of Thanksgiving, we should remember our puritan heritage and sign the log.

 

[+briansnat]

I sometimes place as many as 2 "decoy" caches on a really hard location with a note saying they are not the real cache. Just because you see what looks to be a cache container does not mean it is the real one. It may just have a note that says "keep looking". So how do you know you found the cache without opening it up?

 

Several times I've found what I thought was the cache, only to discover that it was just a randomly discarded film canister or plastic container.

 

Another thing to consider is that the cache might be difficult to reach on purpose. Retreiving it and signing the log is supposed to be part of the challenge. I have a cache that is 30 feet up in a pine tree. You can see it from the ground easily, but the point is to make the climb to get the cache. If you don't do that its not a find in my book.

[+biosearch]

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

I'll quote the moderator here as I'm sure he knows a thing or two about this geocaching thingy that we all apparently do.

 

No. 3, good we're clear on that now.

 

No. 1 & 2, part of the rules, but apparently not enforced, including the owner of the cache in question (or the owner in question for the cache noted, or...) "Take a breath and leave footprints?" Really?

 

So the real rule is that we follow the rules, as long as they suit the cache owner?

[+Scooter Bill]

Maybe the cache should just be marked as "Discovered".

[+baloo&bd]

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

I'll quote the moderator here as I'm sure he knows a thing or two about this geocaching thingy that we all apparently do.

 

No. 3, good we're clear on that now.

 

No. 1 & 2, part of the rules, but apparently not enforced, including the owner of the cache in question (or the owner in question for the cache noted, or...) "Take a breath and leave footprints?" Really?

 

So the real rule is that we follow the rules, as long as they suit the cache owner?

 

C'mon, the cache owner is requiring that people actually find the cache. In geocaching, when there is a physical container, that is determined by signing the log unless otherwise noted. No gray area, no unclear or confusing requirements. Very plain and clear.

 

The owner does have the right to delete a log that does not meet the requirements, implied or stated. That may be frustrating but go ahead and report it to GC and see what response you get. Unless the request is to do something illegal or dangerous, the owner has the rights.

 

Disabilities do not come into play. This is not cold, just a fact. Many cachers, including myself, have caches that are desgnated as accessible in that manner. That was not the issue with the cache here so I am fairly certain that is why the "red herring" comment came into play.

 

If you allow a find for someone just seeing it, do you allow a find to someone whop found the spot it was suppose to be in after it has gone missing? I am sure many of us get request like that from time to time. Where do you draw the line?

[+Criminal]

The problem becomes, where do you draw the line?

You can retrieve it but you can’t open it –

You can touch it but can’t retrieve it –

You can see it but you can’t touch it –

You are sure you would find it if it was there –

You are sure you would have found it had you gone there –

You read the cache page at home and are sure you would find it if you felt like standing up and going outside-

 

The elements of a find:

Go to the coordinates

Find the container

Sign the log (if it is in a sign-able condition)

 

JMHO!!!

[+mgbmusic]

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

I'll quote the moderator here as I'm sure he knows a thing or two about this geocaching thingy that we all apparently do.

 

No. 3, good we're clear on that now.

 

No. 1 & 2, part of the rules, but apparently not enforced, including the owner of the cache in question (or the owner in question for the cache noted, or...) "Take a breath and leave footprints?" Really?

 

So the real rule is that we follow the rules, as long as they suit the cache owner?

 

I see your point here, I really do, but this is why the good people at Groundspeak invented ignore lists and forums, so that we can make our opinions known. Some may agree, and others might not. I would say that caching is like any other activity - you can participate or not. It's not possible to create conditions where every person everywhere is going to be able to participate. It's true in sports, it's true in recreational activities, it's true everywhere in life.

 

Those with disabilities can adapt. In this case, a person with a disability can enjoy the hike and the experience, and if they don't get to log a find, then they still have that. Numbers people are really the only ones who care about numbers. I have 28 finds over - jeez - 5 or 6 months. I've enjoyed every single one of those finds, and I've enjoyed every DNF i've logged. In this case I would do as the cache owner suggested - come back prepared. I have 2 DNF's that I never intend to go back to, but I enjoyed looking.

 

Consistency in cache owners is like trying to find consistency in people - doesn't exist. Read the forums, post to the forums, share your opinions. You enjoy it and we enjoy it - whether we agree or disagree. IN the meantime, add this cache to your ignore list, and try the next one.

 

JM2C

 

--MGB

[+briansnat]

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

I'll quote the moderator here as I'm sure he knows a thing or two about this geocaching thingy that we all apparently do.

 

No. 3, good we're clear on that now.

 

No. 1 & 2, part of the rules, but apparently not enforced, including the owner of the cache in question (or the owner in question for the cache noted, or...) "Take a breath and leave footprints?" Really?

 

So the real rule is that we follow the rules, as long as they suit the cache owner?

 

Well technically, if you do #3 you also complete #1 and #2 by taking the logbook from the cache signing it, then leaving it. The rule doesn't say WHAT to take and leave.

[+agilefox]

I've got to agree with most of the posters here. I was in Seattle when a new cache popped up. I thought having a FTF 1,400 miles from home would be cool, so I played hooky from my conference and ran down to the waterfront. There were way too many people around, so even though I could see the cache clearly, I was unable to retrieve and sign the log. I marked it as a DNF.

 

We all play the game our own way, but there are certain necessary elements for it to be called the same game.

[+biosearch]

Well technically, if you do #3 you also complete #1 and #2 by taking the logbook from the cache signing it, then leaving it. The rule doesn't say WHAT to take and leave.

Okay, okay, I concede....

[+imfrog2002]

I have allowed one person to have a find where he didn't sign the log. He grabbed the container, traded SWAG and forgot to sign it. He posted what SWAG he traded in the log, and it was there, so I'm letting him keep it. Other than that, you have to sign the log, in my opinion. (Unless there's another way to log it.)

[+Juicepig]

As I am from Canada, Sometimes the caches are encased in ice (only in winter though, jeez). I photolog myself with it, and send to owner if necessary, but when possible, always sign the log

[+wimseyguy]

Not only is sign the log stated pretty clearly in the guidelines, it is also stressed on the cache page by the cache owner. There are several times when I have spotted a cache but been unable to sign the log. I posted a note, or a DNF on all but two of these. In those two instances I was unable to get the container open-one was rusted the other simply jammed and I didn't have a big enough wrench with my, so I signed the outside of the container and emailed the owner to be sure they were OK with that decision.

 

If I were the OP I would either return to the spot with a bigger boat ladder or change my find to something else.

Edited November 20, 2006 by wimseyguy

[+briansnat]

As I am from Canada, Sometimes the caches are encased in ice (only in winter though, jeez). I photolog myself with it, and send to owner if necessary, but when possible, always sign the log

 

I'd be more inclined to allow that if it were one of my caches. The ice is not designed to be part of the challenge. I'd rather people not try to smash the container with a rock to get it out.

[Mr.Yuck]

On this week of Thanksgiving, we should remember our puritan heritage and sign the log.

 

 

Yes, I meant to quote the image. I like it. I'll agree with tozainamboku (could be the first time ever). No signed log = no find is a Puritan thing. For example, a few weeks ago, I refused to log a find for This Cache which could not be opened. But, reading the logs, you can see 4 people after me have all claimed finds. So for the masses, I don't think signing the log is a big deal in some cases. For the Puritan's it is. The OP is obviously with the masses, who probably don't even think too much about such things. But I'm with the latter, so sign the log, Gosh Darn it. (A good Puritan never swears).

Edited November 20, 2006 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+sbell111]

... So for the masses, I don't think signing the log is a big deal in some cases. For the Puritan's it is. The OP is obviously with the masses, who probably don't even think too much about such things. But I'm with the latter, so sign the log, Gosh Darn it. (A good Puritan never swears).

I'm not sure that I agree with that. I suspect that the majority of players believe that signing the log is a requirement.

[+baloo&bd]

... So for the masses, I don't think signing the log is a big deal in some cases. For the Puritan's it is. The OP is obviously with the masses, who probably don't even think too much about such things. But I'm with the latter, so sign the log, Gosh Darn it. (A good Puritan never swears).

I'm not sure that I agree with that. I suspect that the majority of players believe that signing the log is a requirement.

 

About the only reason I, or most that I know who cache, would either ask for or allow a "find" without a signature is if it were my fault as the hider. i.e. someon found it on the tenth and notified my that the log were full or soaking and another found it on the 30th and could not log it for the same reason because I neglected to get out and fix it.

 

As a "finder" I have not run into this to often as I carry gel pens (write easier on wet paper) or at least have som paper with me to leave as my signature.

 

As to what "the masses" think, in this case the only opinion that matters is the person who placed the cache. So if you want to try to get away without a signature, more often than not you probably will, however those cases where you are not allowed to, simply move on quietly.

Edited November 20, 2006 by baloo&bd

[+StarBrand]

In most every case, you have to sign the log. Exceptions to this should be VERY rare - but considered.

[Mr.Yuck]

... So for the masses, I don't think signing the log is a big deal in some cases. For the Puritan's it is. The OP is obviously with the masses, who probably don't even think too much about such things. But I'm with the latter, so sign the log, Gosh Darn it. (A good Puritan never swears).

I'm not sure that I agree with that. I suspect that the majority of players believe that signing the log is a requirement.

 

About the only reason I, or most that I know who cache, would either ask for or allow a "find" without a signature is if it were my fault as the hider. i.e. someon found it on the tenth and notified my that the log were full or soaking and another found it on the 30th and could not log it for the same reason because I neglected to get out and fix it.

 

As a "finder" I have not run into this to often as I carry gel pens (write easier on wet paper) or at least have som paper with me to leave as my signature.

 

As to what "the masses" think, in this case the only opinion that matters is the person who placed the cache. So if you want to try to get away without a signature, more often than not you probably will, however those cases where you are not allowed to, simply move on quietly.

 

Well, we're on the same sheet of music. Maybe "the masses" wasn't such a good choice of words. I think most placers would allow a find for a mush log that was their fault. Believe me, I've signed some pretty ugly logs, as far as being soaked. The gel pens are an excellent Idea.

[+trekmiss]

I'm a physically challenged cacher. There are times that I have gotten very close to a cache, but haven't been able to retrieve it. That means I didn't find it. Sometimes I log a note on the cache page like this one. Other times, I don't log anything on the cache page because there really wasn't much to say, but I definitely do not log a find if I don't actually sign the logbook in the cache.

 

I usually only hunt for caches that have less than a 2 terrain. Occasionally, I attempt a more difficult one like the one I mentioned earlier. One thing I have learned is that a level 1 terrain in the mountains of Colorado is much more difficult than a level 1 here in SW Missouri. Oh well, it's the whole experience that I enjoy, it's not about getting another smiley.

[+Confucius' Cat]

I guess my opinion is predictable, but my take on this is who cares if you signed the log or not.

 

Whereas it is not an "official" find if you did not sign the log, it is also reasonable to make an exception for physical reasons (which IS up to the owner to decide).

 

I agree with the "no sign, no find" thing as far as it goes, but as far as fulfilling the requirements of the hunt and the find, once you have located the cache and verified that it is indeed the cache you were looking for, as far as I'm concerned, the cache has been found. The log might not be official, but you HAVE found the cache in the literal sense of the word "found".

 

The above assumption that you have found the cache that you were actually looking for cannot be determined in some cases without opening it, Except for this positive identification, I see no real need to open the cache or sign the log- unless your posted numbers are important to you.

 

I almost always DO open the cache and sign the log, but if I can't for some reason, I certainly won't sweat it.

 

If it were me in the OP situation (and I know I am wierd), since I had seen the sights the owner wanted me to see, appreciated the cleverness of the hide, and actually FOUND the cache, but was not able to retrieve it or open it , i would consider it a "done deal", check the "found" box on my GSAK database and move on.

 

I would not however consider it "found" if part of the cache experience was to find a combination or some such thing and that not finding that information is the reason you couldn't open the cache. Common sense would say that all necessary "puzzles" relating to the cache have to be solved to consider it completed.

[+drives]

Two schools of thought prevail. One says you found it. But if you can't get to the log, how do you know you found it?

 

The second school of thought says the rule it to sign the log then you can update your stats with a "found it".

 

Bottom line is that you are the one that has to deal with yourself when you go to sleep. If you feel like you're cheating, then you're only cheating yourself. No one else cares.

 

I say it's your call.

[+MtnGoat50]

If it were me in the OP situation (and I know I am wierd), since I had seen the sights the owner wanted me to see, appreciated the cleverness of the hide, and actually FOUND the cache, but was not able to retrieve it or open it , i would consider it a "done deal", check the "found" box on my GSAK database and move on.

I would disagree. I once found a cache 75 feet up a tree. I could plainly see the cache and the tree looked climbable, but the penalty for a mistake would have been severe. I was alone, no one knew where I was and my cel phone was dead. So that's as close as I got.

I didn't log a DNF because I found the cache, but I didn't claim a find online either because I couldn't sign the log which was obviously what was intended..... I think I did the right thing.

[+briansnat]

In most every case, you have to sign the log. Exceptions to this should be VERY rare - but considered.

 

The one time I can think of that I didn't sign the logbook it was so wet (basically a blob of pulp) that it was notpossible to sign. I left a business card. I think that would be one of the very rare instances where it's OK.

[+TrailGators]

When this happens to me I usually have an extra logbook or if I don't I try to find a dry piece of paper to sign. The purpose of the log is to prove you were there. I see no need to question someone's honesty. It is all supposed to be about fun anyhow!

[+budd-rdc]

I have been threatened by a cache owner to have my cache find deleted because I did not sign the logbook. The cache is in a high position and was awkward for me to remove. I could feel it, but not quite grasp it, so logged it that way. I have over 500 finds and this is the first time I have ever heard any complaints like this. What is the general feeling on this?

Hard to tell the tone of the owner's voice in a mere e-mail ("threatened") but as others have said, I'd go back and find a way to sign the log somehow. Sometimes, taking a photo of the situation (of your almost getting the cache) shows effort and good faith on your part. At least you were honest in describing your actions.

 

- I had to dig through snow, then used my hands to melt the ice around it so I can retrieve the cache.

- I had to resort to creative use of everyday objects to retrieve AND replace caches out of reach.

- People have had to use plants, dirt, and even their own blood to sign the log book due to lack of pen or pencil nearby.

- There are caches where opening the container is the puzzle, and signing the log inside is the reward.

 

There's accomplishment in finding solutions to a problem, and it's part of the fun of Geocaching. Lack of effort is not something worth bragging about for a mere find count on GC.com.

[+Sagefox]

In most every case, you have to sign the log. Exceptions to this should be VERY rare - but considered.

 

This pretty much covers it.

[+Corp Of Discovery]

Here's a view from a cache owners perspective:

 

I have a cache that a new cacher logged a find on but states that what they found did not match the description on the cache page. Being that there has been some questionable activities in my area recently (fake logs- see Oct. 8th & 15th; fake, non-existant really, caches; geocoin theft and caches disappearing) I emailed them for specifics. They didn't respond. I went to check on my cache and found it right where it was supposed to be. I also found a cammoed peanut butter jar with an official GC.com sticker on it about 10-15 feet away from my cache. I removed the cache to avoid further confusion and posted details in an owners maintenance log. I emailed the new cachers again suggesting they change their 'found' log to either a 'note' or DNF' log. Still no response. If there is still no response in another day or 2 that log will get deleted. They found a cache but did not find my cache.