Take Back The Forums!

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I am a member of a number of state associations, most notably the Alabama Geocachers Association (AGA (alacache.com, website temporarily down)), the Arkansas Geocaching Association (arkgeocaching.org), the Georgia Geocachers Association (ggaonline.org) and maybe six others.

 

All of them have their own forums, in part to keep track of local friends and issues, but also to create a controlled, friendly atmosphere that they did not find here.

 

The AGA, for instance, has 1000+ members, yet rarely will you see one of them post here. Being closely involved in the development and growth of that association, and knowing a great many of our members well, I know for a fact that most of them despise how people treat one another in these forums, and subsequently stay out.

 

That's not to say that everything is peaches and cream every day in those local forums, but by and large they seem to be more appealing to more folks than here.

 

The same is true for the other state's forums. I know literally hundreds of geocachers, and very few ever post in the Groundspeak forum.

 

I frequently travel to geocache and to attend events in a number of states, and overwhelmingly when these forums are mentioned the main thing I hear is something like "Hoo boy, I am not going there, I don't need that kind of ugliness!"

 

I have, until lately, stayed out of here for the same reason.

 

So, why is it that folks who want to communicate with other geocachers, as is evidenced by their building and participating in local forums, won't post here? Sure, many of their discussions are about regional issues, but just as many discuss geocaching topics of interest world-wide.

 

Why are these forums reputed to be so ugly that the vast majority of cachers won't post here? Plenty of them read here, as is evidenced by the number of views as oppossed to posts, so they are interested in the topics.

 

Now, I won't enter into such a discussion unless I feel that I have something to contribute or can perhaps help with, so this IS NOT a pointless criticism of these forums nor of the folks who regularly post here - it is instead an invitation to explore why more folks don't often post here and see if we can't do something about that.

 

This forum, as I understand it, was designed to be a central communication hub shared by all geocachers.

 

Is it that today? If my perception is correct, it isn't; it's become a mine-field where few dare tread, or a squabble that few want to read, dominated by the opinions of a few.

 

I suppose it is the nature of forums that after a bit like-minded folks enjoy the company of others and soon a small number dominate the forum - It's been seen over and over on the internet, and I suspect clubs and groups have been that way long before the 'net.

 

What, then, can be done about it?

 

Moderators, if willing and empowered, can control the worst offenders, but for most of us it's a matter of self-control and thoughtfulness in posting.

 

We can state our opinions without anger and animosity, most of us do it every day in our work and family environment.

 

Maybe we should ask ourself "Would I talk to my boss, my wife or my daughter that way?", and if not, don't do it here.

 

I propose that we each decide and commit to make it a more friendly place, one where we can help and support each other, and disagree without being disagreeable.

 

Let's all maintain our right to speak our mind, but try to do it in a supportive and kind way.

 

Further, let's ask ourselves "Is my post helping anything?" and try to get away from the knee-jerk reaction, the piling-on, the sarcasm and the me-too posts that add nothing and make this an angsty, often negative environment.

 

We can turn the tone of this forum around, make it attractive to all, make it safe for anyone to post. We know by all these seperate forums created for this purpose that folks want this. Let's make this the place where it happens.

 

This can and should be the flagship of geocaching communications if we work together to make that happen!

 

Ed

[+The Leprechauns]

You could consider leading by example.

[+BlueDeuce]

I want a pony.

[ju66l3r]

You could consider leading by example.

 

 

Psst..I don't think we're helping his cause.

[+ReadyOrNot]

The problem is that whenever you get large numbers of people together in one place, the stupidity level increases dramatically. In the smaller community forums, there's probably a bit more accountability. These are people you actually have to deal with in real life.

 

I'm pretty sure I'll never come across an off-topic jabbering rodent trying to cause trouble, so I don't mind calling him an off-topic jabbering rodent.

Edited June 16, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+Criminal]

That’s too many words for me.

 

I think you’re failing to differentiate between ‘squabbling’ and disagreement. When I first heard of pocket caches I was pretty shocked that thinking adults could really consider it geocaching, and tried to get someone from the pro-pocket cache lobby to offer up some sort of argument supporting them. I was practically begging for someone to debate the issue with me. The only thing anyone could come up with didn’t even approach a suitable line of reasoning.

 

My case against them, and the other fake finds, wasn’t squabbling, it wasn’t meant to be demeaning, and it wasn’t meant to create discord. I was simply looking for somebody to explain how telling a lie was appropriate in a game that relies so heavily on the honor system.

Edited June 16, 2006 by Criminal

[+briansnat]

These forums are far more friendly than nearly every other Internet forum I've visited. Anybody who thinks its ugly here hasn't been around a lot of other forums.

 

The point of these forums are to communicate and discuss issues. When issues are debated, there will be differences of opinion and somtimes the discussion gets spirited. I think its healthy as long as the debate is respecful and doesn't degenerate into gratuitous personal attacks. Though that does happen here, its not all that frequent. The mods are usually quick to step in when it does.

 

Some people see any debate as a negative. When I get together with my family we'll loudly dicuss politics, sports or whatever. Over the years I've brought semi strangers (usually a new girlfriend) into that environment and some were appalled. One ex-GF asked me why I would visit my family so often since it was obvious we couldn't stand each other. Can't stand each other? I thought we loved each other and got along great! On the other hand, other guests would jump right into the fray and comment afterwards how much fun my family was. Its all a matter of perspective.

 

I think most of the people who are really put off by these forums are the ones who come here with an issue, ask what people think and don't get the answer they want.

[+Snoogans]

This can and should be the flagship of geocaching communications if we work together to make that happen!

 

Ed

 

People seldom flame those that they have been face to face with at an event or may bump into on the trail.

 

This international forum is a bit like driving on the freeway. Folks get really brave in their SUVs just as they do behind a computer screen hundreds or thousands of miles away. I doubt that the atmosphere here will ever change.

 

At events, people ask me why I come here all the time. Recently, many of these same people have thanked me for speaking up about recent decisions that have affected a large and mostly silent crowd that lurk here.

Edited June 16, 2006 by Snoogans

[+Katerbug]

The problem we have on the national forum basically boils down to people not understanding how to debate things like grown-ups, or being so passionate about the subject that they don't know when to hold back. I've been puttering around in off topic lately because of this, all fun and games there. However, you can't keep people from expressing their opinions the way that they want to. If someone were to yell at me because of my opinons on certain topics, oh well. We all need to realize that we're here because we all share a common interest, and though we may not all engage in it the same way, we're the lucky minority that actually have fun doing it, so why ruin it for each other? If someone plays differently than you do, let them, they're having fun, you go and have your own fun without worrying about it. Debates are perfectly fine, they help shape the game that we play(like virts being moved to Waymarking.com and such) but you've gotta know where to draw the line. No reason we should yell and scream like children on here. Just my two cents...

 

oh, and I agree with Brian..these forums are quite tame compared to some that I've seen, very thankful for that.

Edited June 16, 2006 by Katerbug

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

You could consider leading by example.

 

Yup, that's exactly why I am here today, why I posted this, and what I hope to accomplish!

 

Let bygones be bygone's and let's see what we can do about today and tomorrow.

[+AuntieWeasel]

Let bygones be bygone's and let's see what we can do about today and tomorrow.

 

You know how you let bygones be bygones? You stop bringing the contentious issue up again and again and again.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I am a member of a number of state associations, most notably the Alabama Geocachers Association (AGA (alacache.com, website temporarily down)), the Arkansas Geocaching Association (arkgeocaching.org), the Georgia Geocachers Association (ggaonline.org) and maybe six others.

 

All of them have their own forums, in part to keep track of local friends and issues, but also to create a controlled, friendly atmosphere that they did not find here.

 

The AGA, for instance, has 1000+ members, yet rarely will you see one of them post here. Being closely involved in the development and growth of that association, and knowing a great many of our members well, I know for a fact that most of them despise how people treat one another in these forums, and subsequently stay out.

 

That's not to say that everything is peaches and cream every day in those local forums, but by and large they seem to be more appealing to more folks than here.

 

The same is true for the other state's forums. I know literally hundreds of geocachers, and very few ever post in the Groundspeak forum.

 

I frequently travel to geocache and to attend events in a number of states, and overwhelmingly when these forums are mentioned the main thing I hear is something like "Hoo boy, I am not going there, I don't need that kind of ugliness!"

 

I have, until lately, stayed out of here for the same reason.

 

So, why is it that folks who want to communicate with other geocachers, as is evidenced by their building and participating in local forums, won't post here? Sure, many of their discussions are about regional issues, but just as many discuss geocaching topics of interest world-wide.

 

Why are these forums reputed to be so ugly that the vast majority of cachers won't post here? Plenty of them read here, as is evidenced by the number of views as oppossed to posts, so they are interested in the topics.

 

Now, I won't enter into such a discussion unless I feel that I have something to contribute or can perhaps help with, so this IS NOT a pointless criticism of these forums nor of the folks who regularly post here - it is instead an invitation to explore why more folks don't often post here and see if we can't do something about that.

 

This forum, as I understand it, was designed to be a central communication hub shared by all geocachers.

 

Is it that today? If my perception is correct, it isn't; it's become a mine-field where few dare tread, or a squabble that few want to read, dominated by the opinions of a few.

 

I suppose it is the nature of forums that after a bit like-minded folks enjoy the company of others and soon a small number dominate the forum - It's been seen over and over on the internet, and I suspect clubs and groups have been that way long before the 'net.

 

What, then, can be done about it?

 

Moderators, if willing and empowered, can control the worst offenders, but for most of us it's a matter of self-control and thoughtfulness in posting.

 

We can state our opinions without anger and animosity, most of us do it every day in our work and family environment.

 

Maybe we should ask ourself "Would I talk to my boss, my wife or my daughter that way?", and if not, don't do it here.

 

I propose that we each decide and commit to make it a more friendly place, one where we can help and support each other, and disagree without being disagreeable.

 

Let's all maintain our right to speak our mind, but try to do it in a supportive and kind way.

 

Further, let's ask ourselves "Is my post helping anything?" and try to get away from the knee-jerk reaction, the piling-on, the sarcasm and the me-too posts that add nothing and make this an angsty, often negative environment.

 

We can turn the tone of this forum around, make it attractive to all, make it safe for anyone to post. We know by all these seperate forums created for this purpose that folks want this. Let's make this the place where it happens.

 

This can and should be the flagship of geocaching communications if we work together to make that happen!

 

Ed

Ed, I understand your perception, but I have never particularly had the impression that people largely do not get along here. Yes, many people disagree on a number of aspects of how the sport/game might be played, and even on interpretations of the rules, and some folks love to debate various points, but I usually see very little real discord or animosity. To me, the disagreements and debtes are just harmless -- and even desirable -- diversity, without which life would be very boring. In fact, and I have said this before, compared to most forums and email list groups which I have seen on the web (and I manage many myself), this place is quite "easy" and relaxed and "safe".

 

As for the folks who prefer local forums, they may prefer smaller forums with far lower activity levels, and where they have a fair to middling chance of knowing at least 25% of the posters. It is also my perception that since some folks feel safe only when they are big fish in a very small pond (i.e., local forums), versus than being a small fish in a very big pond (i.e., the geocaching.com forums), they may tend to make inaccurate assessments of larger forums, such as this geo forum, in which they may view the larger forums as necessarily threatening and hostile, if only due to size and lack of familiarity.

 

And, let us not forget that many people love to read the forums, but never post to them; this is sometimes called "lurking". Every time I attend a geo event, people who are complete strangers to me (i.e., I had never met them before, and their geo handles are not familiar to me) approach me and tell me how much they love my posts, particularly my bizarre humor, on the national forums and the local Maryland Geocaching Society forum, and yet, when we chat, it turns out that they have never posted a single post to either forum themselves in their entire geo lives. Thus, had they not approached me and spoken with me, I would never have known that they existed, much less that they were reading and enjoying my posts, and, in fact, enjoying the forums in general!

Edited June 16, 2006 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+Metaphor]

I posted this on my local forum in a thread that spread the message that the GS forums were ugly:

 

"human nature is human nature, and we chose to read what we read. This morning, a quick jump to the first page of the General forum at Groundspeak yielded the following results:

 

38 threads covering a gamut of interests, from using bluetooth, a 50 state multicache, sharing of creative cache ideas, getting permission to place a cache in a library, paperless caching advice, geocaching vehicles, ghost-hunting and haunted caches, a cache stat tracker program, best puzzle caches, a first-timer seeking assistance...

 

There were three threads that were mildly negative: a micro in the woods complaint, public stealth caches, tb hotels in muggly areas...

 

There were four controversial threads: death of micros, the Numbers Game (the real controversial thread resulting from some pretty unethical logging practices -- pocket caches, logging archived caches that you've never been to, multiple logging of one's own caches to build up smilie count, defacing cache containers in an effort to set a record, etc, which spilled out of Geowoodstock 4), a complaint about placing caches in illegal and/or dangerous places, and cheating by not signing the log...

 

And that was only one of the forums. I've had conversations with cachers in other countries, gotten help with language translations, had my lost tb found through the forums, given and gotten great advice, met with cachers from other states, and had technical problems solved.

 

My point is that someone new coming into the MGS forum, reading that the Groundspeak forums are always vile, filled with angst and vitreol, and are a peopled with mean, angry people, will probably steer clear of them, or give a cursory glance at the more glaring examples of negativity, and never check the good stuff that is there to be had.

 

If a reader chooses to read only the negative, that's his or her preogative. But don't stereotype all the forums and forums posters on the other forums as negative, angry people. They're simply not."

 

I read a lot of posts, but not responding in them is not a sign of fear or anything else. I respond when I feel I want to and it can be in any of a variety of threads. Sometimes it may be a comment about a policy, a helpful hint (if Briansnat hasn't said it first) or in some cases, a opinion voiced on an issue I feel strongly about...

 

My point is this: if the forums have a bad reputation, it's largely because people tend to read the more scandalous threads, neglecting the ones that don't have negativity. Then they tell others how nasty the GC forums are. That next person shies away, spreads further the impression that the GC forums are evil, etc. and on down the line. Some threads have volatility, like the ones you've (AR) been somewhat involved in recently, but through them I've learned a great deal about geocaching in other parts of the country. But others have been less so, and downright mundane, as evidenced by the 38 threads I noted above with nothing but civility, friendliness and helpfulness. If you choose to see these forums in a certain light, try not reading and responding to the controversial ones. Instead spend more time with the others, in this, or any of the general, regional or international forums found here, and your opinion may change. Then spread that word... it will go a lot longer way than opening a new thread that will guarantee more histrionics. Peace is most found when you look for it.

Edited June 16, 2006 by Metaphor

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Let bygones be bygone's and let's see what we can do about today and tomorrow.

You know how you let bygones be bygones? You stop bringing the contentious issue up again and again and again.

Auntie, it is so good to see a post from you here! I wuv you and I wuv your posts! Your tone (which I love), at times reminds me a bit of a legend circulating around Hollywood about Faye Dunaway (with whom I fell in love with her when I saw her acting in the film Barfly; moan!). The story (which is probably untrue, but it is so much fun) has it that while Faye was acting in a recent film, she was picked up at her home one morning by an understandably nervous studio production assistant, who was acting as her chauffeur. And the story goes that Faye came out to the car wearing dark movie star sunglasses, and never said a word to the driver, and then, as they were driving enrout to the studio, the driver activated on the turn signal to herald an upcoming turn, and, the tale says, from the back seat, at last, came The Voice, which said, "Can't you turn that thing DOWN?" Auntie, I can imagine you asking the same thing, and so you are my idol! BTW, I found the above tale about Faye in an article at this celebrity/fashion/scandal website, if you want to read more about the Goddess.

[+thedeadpirate]

You could consider leading by example.

 

 

Psst..I don't think we're helping his cause.

 

You're not. And it is actually surprising considering this recent post. But you do admit that you are offering no solutions.

 

I read these forums regularly. I definitely could understand folks not wanting to step out into the foray. It seems that a number of posters consistently attempt to hijack threads to further their agendas instead of just discussing the topic at hand in a civil manner.

 

This thread is about participating in the forums in a civil, friendly manner which invites others to participate. I think that the point made about the members of the smaller forums being more accountable to each other is correct.

 

I participate in several local forums spanning a number of different activities. All of those forums are generally friendly and promote good dialogue. The participants don't always agree, but are respectful of others in their disagreements.

 

These forums suffer from the same problems many other forums that I have participated in do which span a large segment of the population. For some reason people seem to disconnect on the internet. If you want to see a really harsh example of this, try visiting Usenet sometime. Since a large majority of the posters have no personal connection to the other posters, the normal processes in our brains that keep us in check cease to apply.

 

I will say that these forums, by and large, are much friendlier than other forums of this size, in my experience. I think this is largely due to the moderators staying on top of flagrant abuses. However, I think the OP's suggestion that we do more self-moderation is right on.

 

It is up to each one of us to make this a place where all geocachers can share our ideas in an inviting atmosphere.

[+Team Dubbin]

Oh imagine that, a topic about not fighting with people fighting in it. This thread and everyone of them like it is totally useless.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

That’s too many words for me.

 

I think you’re failing to differentiate between ‘squabbling’ and disagreement. (1.) When I first heard of pocket caches I was pretty shocked that thinking adults could really consider it geocaching, (2.) and tried to get someone from the pro-pocket cache lobby to offer up some sort of argument supporting them. I was practically begging for someone to debate the issue with me. The only thing anyone could come up with didn’t even approach a suitable line of reasoning.

 

My case against them, and the other fake finds, wasn’t squabbling, it wasn’t meant to be demeaning, and it wasn’t meant to create discord. (3.) I was simply looking for somebody to explain how telling a lie was appropriate in a game that relies so heavily on the honor system.

 

I think the difference between squabbling and disagreement is pretty obvious to most people. It is hard to tell, though I get notes from admins saying "It's not what you say, it's how you say it". I expect that's one of the big problems online, we don't know how the other person said it, we just know what we read, and read into it.

 

1. Well, here's the problem! You say you don't mean to be demeaning, but I think that's exactly what most folks would read into the line "When I first heard of pocket caches I was pretty shocked that thinking adults could really consider it geocaching" Calling them "fake finds" certainly doesn't help, we never considered them fake. A lot of us did, and do, consider it geocaching, yet I believe myself to be a thinking adult, and don't see it as at all shocking that we each play the game our way.

 

2. At the time Pocket Caches were becoming popular I was a Reviewer, and very closely watched. A goodly percentage of my posts drew notes from CO Admin or another Reviewer, making it clear that I was not free to speak my mind. As a consequence I rarely posted and stayed almost completely out of these forums. I would have loved to answer your posts.

 

Had JoGPS, the Reviewer who started Pocket Caches, or some of their biggest fans, say BackBrakeBilly, who is widely respected by many, who set a 'record' of sorts by having 50-something Pocket Caches at an event, or any of the respected cachers who logged them, spoken up in here long ago I doubt the issue would have come to a head as it did, but they didn't, and I felt that I couldn't.

 

There is, or at least was, a voice for Pocket Caches...certainly thousands of them were logged.

 

Were all of those who logged them cheats and liars? Certainly not.

 

Jeremy has come down hard on the issue, it's resolved, so it's not worth debating at this time, but please consider that the vast majority of geocachers involved in the creation and logging of Pocket Caches did it for fun, meant no harm, and were not trying to pad their stats or harm the game.

 

Interestingly, I understand a work-around solution may be being considered that accomplishes the same thing without the logger getting a smilie, so the whole anti-PC issue seems to boil down to numbers. The act is okay, just don't let them get a smilie for it.

 

3. I disagree that logging Pocket Caches was a lie or a cheat - it was a regular and accepted part of events in many states. Calling folks that participated liars isn't correct or helping anything.

[+9Key]

People seldom flame those that they have been face to face with at an event or may bump into on the trail.

I agree! Like the Alabamans, there's only a handful of Texans that post here (Snoogans being the foremost) for the very reasons you outlined, Ed.

 

Its interesting that two of the "cachers" that posted felt the need to defend themselves. I would have just kept quiet and ignored the topic if I were these guys.

[+briansnat]

Oh imagine that, a topic about not fighting with people fighting in it.

 

 

See.

[+StarBrand]

Hardly worth expressing an opinion unless you have some passion about it.

 

Many of the forum "discussions" over the past 2 years have altered my view of caching and strenghtened my opinion in some areas.

 

As long as it doesn't get personal, debate is a healthy thing. I think folks that don't post here are either just looking for information or are just not as comfortable with a lot of folks they don't know. That is why local forums are so important. These forums are well monitored and moderated. Other than the overt occasional beating of a dead horse with 10 threads thinly disgused as the same thing, I rather like the mood and continuity of these forums.

 

Hope to see your comments here again soon!!!

[ju66l3r]

You could consider leading by example.

 

Psst..I don't think we're helping his cause.

 

You're not. And it is actually surprising considering this recent post. But you do admit that you are offering no solutions.

 

 

My post was over-the-top, tongue-in-cheek....thus the manically-animated gif and wide-toothed smilie.

 

This one is just overly-hyphenated.

[+welch]

...

This forum, as I understand it, was designed to be a central communication hub shared by all geocachers.

 

Is it that today? If my perception is correct, it isn't; it's become a mine-field where few dare tread, or a squabble that few want to read, dominated by the opinions of a few.

 

I suppose it is the nature of forums that after a bit like-minded folks enjoy the company of others and soon a small number dominate the forum - It's been seen over and over on the internet, and I suspect clubs and groups have been that way long before the 'net.

 

What, then, can be done about it?

 

Moderators, if willing and empowered, can control the worst offenders, but for most of us it's a matter of self-control and thoughtfulness in posting.

 

We can state our opinions without anger and animosity, most of us do it every day in our work and family environment.

 

Maybe we should ask ourself "Would I talk to my boss, my wife or my daughter that way?", and if not, don't do it here.

 

I propose that we each decide and commit to make it a more friendly place, one where we can help and support each other, and disagree without being disagreeable.

 

...

The thing is, when is someone using anger and animosity instead of friendly and mellow tones?

And if empowered would the MODs make the correct choice in when and who to control the offenders?

Sometimes I think people would act differently if they were just totally ignored vs. getting more upset from being moderated, then opening new threads and taking other ones off course. Isn't it difficult to fight yourself?

 

The other thing is about size and familiarity, I think local group forums are usually small(er) groups of people who have likely met each other. Or at least have more off forum interaction then IMO most people on this board. The less you know about the other person the easier it is to misunderstand their meaning. Or even if you understand the meaning, if it may help knowing a little about the reasons that helped form the ideas they have. "I see your point, but I disagree" vs. "you're a talking head with lunatic ideas"

[+madajb]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I come here _for_ the drama.

The incredible leaps of logic, the angst, the petty squabbling over mundane details, the occasional brilliant riposte.

 

I don't watch soaps, so I come here instead.

Sure, occasionally it gets a little repetitive, when someone's illegimate adopted Korean teenager goes into a coma for the 3rd time while the smart but troubled doctor searches for the cure in darkest Africa, but the forums always drag me back.

 

I say carry on with the snide remarks, the veiled insults, the flashes of inspiration.

If it all stopped, then I might actually have to go outside, and that just can't happen.

 

-ajb

[Dan&Chris]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I come here _for_ the drama.

The incredible leaps of logic, the angst, the petty squabbling over mundane details, the occasional brilliant riposte.

 

I don't watch soaps, so I come here instead.

Sure, occasionally it gets a little repetitive, when someone's illegimate adopted Korean teenager goes into a coma for the 3rd time while the smart but troubled doctor searches for the cure in darkest Africa, but the forums always drag me back.

 

I say carry on with the snide remarks, the veiled insults, the flashes of inspiration.

If it all stopped, then I might actually have to go outside, and that just can't happen.

 

-ajb

[+wimseyguy]

This can and should be the flagship of geocaching communications if we work together to make that happen!

 

Ed

 

People seldom flame those that they have been face to face with at an event or may bump into on the trail.

Oh puhleeeeze. Get a freakin' clue will ya guys? (oh wait-you just said seldom, not never... um never mind then-carry on.... )

 

I think too many visitors to these forums lack a sense of humor and take things way too seriously. And yes, _the_drama_ can be entertaining at times. It is afterall just a discussion about hunting for a container in the woods somewhere hopefully interesting, not a kidney transplant forum.

 

This international forum is a bit like driving on the freeway. Folks get really brave in their SUVs just as they do behind a computer screen hundreds or thousands of miles away. I doubt that the atmosphere here will ever change.

 

At events, people ask me why I come here all the time. Recently, many of these same people have thanked me for speaking up about recent decisions that have affected a large and mostly silent crowd that lurk here.

 

Interesting analogy. I'm also one of the few from my area who come here often. My explanation is that it is like that bar over on that side of town. It doesn't really deserve its reputation, but the regulars do nothing to change the minds of those who think it isn't a cool place to hang out and exchange ideas. That might change it into a Chucky Cheese atmosphere anyway if they did come in without hesitation. You just have to sit quietly and enjoy your beverage of choice the first few times you visit until you get to know the players a little bit.

 

I do feel that we are a little harsh, or short tempered with some newer visitors who cannot figure out to use the most excellent search engine before they ask a question that has been discussed 2-3 or 32 times already. We could stand to provide a slightly gentler response to them. Then again they could stay over in the Getting Started bar where they belong.

[ElevenBravo]

Dont feed the trolls... Ignor them until they POOFT into thin air. :-)

[+Criminal]

SNIP...It is hard to tell, though I get notes from admins saying...

 

I have no idea what the note you get might say as I'm not in the club.

 

1. Well, here's the problem! You say you don't mean to be demeaning, but I think that's exactly what most folks would read into the line "When I first heard of pocket caches I was pretty shocked that thinking adults could really consider it geocaching" Calling them "fake finds" certainly doesn't help, we never considered them fake. A lot of us did, and do, consider it geocaching, yet I believe myself to be a thinking adult, and don't see it as at all shocking that we each play the game our way.

It's STILL baffling to me that anyone would do this. Every time I get surprised by someone's laziness, along comes something even lazier. Bringing a cache? Sheesh. OK OK, I am too idealistic.

 

2. At the time Pocket Caches were becoming popular I was a Reviewer, and very closely watched. A goodly percentage of my posts drew notes from CO Admin or another Reviewer, making it clear that I was not free to speak my mind. As a consequence I rarely posted and stayed almost completely out of these forums. I would have loved to answer your posts.

As above, we're not privy to what is\was being said behind the scenes.

 

Were all of those who logged them cheats and liars? Certainly not.

3. I disagree that logging Pocket Caches was a lie or a cheat - it was a regular and accepted part of events in many states. Calling folks that participated liars isn't correct or helping anything.

OK, one more time in case you missed it.

If you log a geocache as found, (geocache = the container, the coordinate set, and usually the logbook) when you did not, you have told a lie. I'm sorry it ain't pretty, but it's true. My choice of word wasn't meant to insult, it's just the best word there is. If the geocache is removed from its location and brought to an event, it is no longer a geocache. When you or I select Found It from the drop down box, we are saying we went to the location, found the container, and logged it. The hostility that a few brought into the forums, email, and the bookmark list’s comments, are very telling in that people felt genuinely threatened that they could no longer log finds without actually finding anything. Nobody wanted to debate it, they just spewed venom.

[CoyoteRed]

3. I disagree that logging Pocket Caches was a lie or a cheat - it was a regular and accepted part of events in many states. Calling folks that participated liars isn't correct or helping anything.

 

Yet, the Prime Administrator has said it is abuse of the system.

 

I could very well be wrong, but the perception I have is after a long absence you have returned with an agenda. Why you were gone I don't know, but it seems like after the trashing you took over the fiasco of your decision to mark the outside of the cache container you're back and you're trying to rebuild your reputation. Your posts are all mellow and non-confrontational, much more so than before. It would seem they would have to be after being so soundly trounced recently. However, your posts are full of "alternatives." It seems to me the tact you are taking is a mellow presentation of practices outside the normal and accepted bounds in an effort to reduce the sting of what you've done during the record cache run attempt.

 

Face it. You were wrong. Move on and do so without trying to point at other "accepted" practices which are themselves questionable if not outright wrong. They might be acceptable in your circle, but not to the community at large. Obviously.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

So what part of a pocket cache requires you to use a GPSr?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

So what part of a pocket cache requires you to use a GPSr?

 

Quite a lot of it, as is explained here in my post describing them.

 

Again, Jeremy finally came down against them, so I am not arguing - I am instead asking people here to accept that there are differnt ways to play, different reasons for actions other than their strict definition, and to please quit calling those of us who logged PCs liars and cheats.

 

That's not how or why PCs came about, not fair to the many personalities being smeared with these statements.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

So what part of a pocket cache requires you to use a GPSr?

 

Quite a lot of it, as is explained here in my post describing them.

 

Again, Jeremy finally came down against them, so I am not arguing - I am instead asking people here to accept that there are differnt ways to play, different reasons for actions other than their strict definition, and to please quit calling those of us who logged PCs liars and cheats.

 

That's not how or why PCs came about, not fair to the many personalities being smeared with these statements.

You linked to a post by someone else?

 

So pocket caches are good "socialization tools" but what does that have to do with geocaching? You're already getting credit for attending the event cache, why should you also get credit for finding a cache that was brought to the event? You didn't go find it, it was brought to you!

[+Recdiver]

These forums are far more friendly than nearly every other Internet forum I've visited. Anybody who thinks its ugly here hasn't been around a lot of other forums.

 

The point of these forums are to communicate and discuss issues. When issues are debated, there will be differences of opinion and somtimes the discussion gets spirited. I think its healthy as long as the debate is respecful and doesn't degenerate into gratuitous personal attacks. Though that does happen here, its not all that frequent. The mods are usually quick to step in when it does.

 

Some people see any debate as a negative. When I get together with my family we'll loudly dicuss politics, sports or whatever. Over the years I've brought semi strangers (usually a new girlfriend) into that environment and some were appalled. One ex-GF asked me why I would visit my family so often since it was obvious we couldn't stand each other. Can't stand each other? I thought we loved each other and got along great! On the other hand, other guests would jump right into the fray and comment afterwards how much fun my family was. Its all a matter of perspective.

 

I think most of the people who are really put off by these forums are the ones who come here with an issue, ask what people think and don't get the answer they want.

 

So true I've been in forum where I know they eat their own young. I don't go there anymore. The spewing of bile and hatred got to be too much. I likes a good dust up myself as long as no blood is spilt of course.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I could very well be wrong, but the perception I have is after a long absence you have returned with an agenda. Why you were gone I don't know, but it seems like after the trashing you took over the fiasco...yada yada

 

Yes, I choose to return to posting in these forume.

 

Yes, I have been gone for a while. You may remember however the agreement we had worked out when I was active here - I won't respond to you if you don't respond to me. We're never going to get along, so get off my case. Your repeating my sins real and imagined ad nauseum adds nothing.

 

Yes, I am perhaps more mellow.. you criticized me when I was less so, now you're criticizing me for being nicer? Sorta proves my point.

 

Do I have an agenda? Maybe, haven't thought about it... certainly not one I can formulate words for, I just know I was slaughtered when NOT posting, so coming in here and defending myself, sharing my thoughts and ideas, trying to make this a safe and fun environment for all geocachers can't be any worse.

 

So, let's go back to ignoring one another, shall we? Thank you.

[+StarBrand]

So what part of a pocket cache requires you to use a GPSr?

 

Quite a lot of it, as is explained here in my post describing them.

 

Again, Jeremy finally came down against them, so I am not arguing - I am instead asking people here to accept that there are differnt ways to play, different reasons for actions other than their strict definition, and to please quit calling those of us who logged PCs liars and cheats.

 

That's not how or why PCs came about, not fair to the many personalities being smeared with these statements.

I've been fairly silent on the subject for the most part but this kind of logic is flawed and bugs me. Just because a lot of people do it certainly doesn't make it any more legit or acceptable. The new and differnet way to play is just some other activity in my book. Not worthy.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Indeed true - "Just because a lot of people do it certainly doesn't make it any more legit or acceptable" can be said for all the voices here telling us we were wrong!

[+Renegade Knight]

My observations about who posts and who does are similar to TAR's. Most of the people who post in the IGO forums don't here. One level down a lot of people who post in SEIGO don't post in IGO for the same reasons.

 

What I think it is, is a fear of confrontation or something similar. People take things as personal that aren’t personal. Successful posters don't hold a grudge because someone disagreed in a thread. They may agree in another thread. Most of them have a “what happens in a thread stays the thread” attitude.

 

In any activity there will always be wallflowers who just don’t ‘get it’. Hell I dance like a white guy, but it wasn’t until I got up and asked a lady to dance that I figured out the truth about dancing. It’s not at all about how well you dance.

[Moun10Bike]

I could very well be wrong, but the perception I have is after a long absence you have returned with an agenda. Why you were gone I don't know, but it seems like after the trashing you took over the fiasco...yada yada

 

<snip...>

 

Do I have an agenda? Maybe, haven't thought about it... certainly not one I can formulate words for, I just know I was slaughtered when NOT posting, so coming in here and defending myself, sharing my thoughts and ideas, trying to make this a safe and fun environment for all geocachers can't be any worse.

 

CR's post describing his response to this thread matches my impressions to a "T". The recent spike in your posting activity coupled with the content of those posts has come off to me as positively dripping with agenda. My negative impressions of the controversial events that took place at GW4 likely would have faded if those involved had just honestly apologized and responded in a contrite manner. Instead, we have had empty apologies (the "I don't really think I did anything wrong but I'm sorry that my actions upset you" kind) and desperate attempts to sling mud about in an effort to get it to stick somewhere else and thus move the spotlight onto other things. These don't strike me as the actions of someone looking to make the forums a nicer place, but someone looking to divert attention from poor decisions that have, quite deservedly so, come back to bite him in the butt.

[+Totem Clan]

I could very well be wrong, but the perception I have is after a long absence you have returned with an agenda. Why you were gone I don't know, but it seems like after the trashing you took over the fiasco...yada yada

 

<snip...>

 

Do I have an agenda? Maybe, haven't thought about it... certainly not one I can formulate words for, I just know I was slaughtered when NOT posting, so coming in here and defending myself, sharing my thoughts and ideas, trying to make this a safe and fun environment for all geocachers can't be any worse.

 

CR's post describing his response to this thread matches my impressions to a "T". The recent spike in your posting activity coupled with the content of those posts has come off to me as positively dripping with agenda. My negative impressions of the controversial events that took place at GW4 likely would have faded if those involved had just honestly apologized and responded in a contrite manner. Instead, we have had empty apologies (the "I don't really think I did anything wrong but I'm sorry that my actions upset you" kind) and desperate attempts to sling mud about in an effort to get it to stick somewhere else and thus move the spotlight onto other things. These don't strike me as the actions of someone looking to make the forums a nicer place, but someone looking to divert attention from poor decisions that have, quite deservedly so, come back to bite him in the butt.

Well said.

 

You want a nice friendly forum? Then quit stirring the pot!

[+Corp Of Discovery]

You could consider leading by example.

 

That pretty much covers it for me.

 

What do the forums need to be taken back from? Any group of people is going to generate conflict of some kind at some point. There is nothing wrong with that, indeed, I think it's quite natural. The things that I think keep people out is when stuff gets personal, like it has recently, and the hyperbole from both sides of various issues.

[+Kryten]

As a cacher from over the pond, I have found these forums an invaluable source of information. I have had technical questions answered, and as a result of reading one thread, removed the rules from my TB hotel. So people round here speak their mind, is that a bad thing, definately not. In any community this large there are going to be disagreements, some people are going to want to take the game in directions which others don't want to go. That is always going to happen so people have got to be free to say things other's may not want to hear (profanity excepted). What would be wrong is expecting everybody to get along like characters from the Waltons, with all disagreements patched up by bed time.

[+Hoppingcrow]

Emboldened, I look out.

Look left and right.

Look forward and back.

Carefully, cautiously, I venture Over There.

Looking forward and back from my new vantage point,

Looking left and right from my new vantage point,

I see the same scenery I saw the last time I ventured out, Over There.

 

All same-same.

Crow going back home.

[+rjb43nh]

Moun10Bike-"These don't strike me as the actions of someone looking to make the forums a nicer place, but someone looking to divert attention from poor decisions that have, quite deservedly so, come back to bite him in the butt."

I not only agree with Moun10Bike, I said almost exactly the same thing in another similar thread started by TAR. I said: "It appears the real reason you started this thread is you are trying to deflect blame from your previous similar bad acts, or justify them, by saying: "but everyone does it." My advice would be for you to drop it while you still have some dignity left. The entire tone of your posts only makes it look worse."

 

Your title for this thread: "Take Back The Forums!, Can't we all just get along?" seems to imply that the forums don't support your point of view and somehow should be brought into line with your way of thinking and your lais sez faire style of caching. What I see is many diverse views presented here but the majority of the posters support following rules, guidelines, or accepted practices. My theory is that the forums may be right and your perception is slanted. I really don't think you can disprove this.

[+carleenp]

I don't think there is a need to sanitize the forums more than they are (which I guess is how I am reading "take back the forums"). I think debate, including strong debate, in the forums is useful. It helps sort out issues or at least educate people on varying viewpoints so they can reach their own. I also often think that people who don't like the debate are perhaps too sensetive to the subject or reading too much into things. It is far too easy to take disagreement personally on the internet. It is also far too easy for a person to get more strong worded on the internet than they might otherwise. But when that crosses the line, that is what the mods are for.

 

And then I tend to think if you don't like it, don't read it or don't post in threads that are troublesome. There are threads from time to time that I just don't read or participate in simply because they bug me. But I won't tell others not to read them or post in them. What is not important to me or bugs me can be very important and interesting to others.

 

Finally, these forums seem pretty tame to me and if they got even tamer, I have to admit that they would also likely get boring. For as much as I like to avoid angst, I still get some interest from reading it.....

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I could very well be wrong, but the perception I have is after a long absence you have returned with an agenda. Why you were gone I don't know, but it seems like after the trashing you took over the fiasco...yada yada

 

<snip...>

 

Do I have an agenda? Maybe, haven't thought about it... certainly not one I can formulate words for, I just know I was slaughtered when NOT posting, so coming in here and defending myself, sharing my thoughts and ideas, trying to make this a safe and fun environment for all geocachers can't be any worse.

 

CR's post describing his response to this thread matches my impressions to a "T". The recent spike in your posting activity coupled with the content of those posts has come off to me as positively dripping with agenda. . . These don't strike me as the actions of someone looking to make the forums a nicer place, but someone looking to divert attention from poor decisions that have, quite deservedly so, come back to bite him in the butt.

Ed, I must agree 100% with the observations by Moun10Bike and CR, in that I perceive you as having an agenda here, and asomewhat covert one at that. And, Ed, after learning more about you in the past week and some of what you have done in the world of geocaching, I have a great deal of appreciation for you and your many contributions to geocaching. And, as I have said before, I do not judge you for those choices you have made where we obviously disagee. However, I strongly sense a covert agenda in many of your recent posts (and in this thread) in the forum, and I feel very comfortable in pointing it out to you.

 

By the way Ed, since you have repeatedly mentioned that when you meet people at events, they tell you that they like PCs and temporary event caches and the idea of claiming a find for them, even through manipulations of the gc.com system, allow me to address that issue. When I attend events here in Maryland, and when I encounter other cachers on the trails, that is not what I hear at all from this large "silent majority". Rather, what I hear is amusement and disbelief at the extremes to which some folks will try to bend the rules in order to claim "finds" for such feats . Mind you, none of these "silent majority" people with whom I speak minds the idea of PCs, or of temporary event caches, but rather, what amazes them (and me) is that folks then try all sorts of ingenious games to try to claim "finds" at the geocaching.com website for those, ahem, dubious "finds". However, while I am on this topic, allow me to mention that with only one or two exceptions, these same "silent majority" people have not reacted so much with anger or rage or blame (as we have seen a very few people do here at the national forums) but rather, simply with amazement, amusement and disbelief, and a strong wish that people would stop playing these games.

[+sbell111]

I think the difference between squabbling and disagreement is pretty obvious to most people. It is hard to tell, though I get notes from admins saying "It's not what you say, it's how you say it". I expect that's one of the big problems online, we don't know how the other person said it, we just know what we read, and read into it.

 

1. Well, here's the problem! ...

My wife is fond of reminding me that there is much truth in jest. In fact she often does it right after I have hurt her feelings completely without meaning to.

 

That being said, you might want to take another read of AuntieWeasel's post. Here it is:

You know how you let bygones be bygones? You stop bringing the contentious issue up again and again and again.

Ed, you would do yourself a huge favor by not posting on certain issues.

 

Edit: fixed my wierd accusation of AuntieWeasel, perhaps the poster that I admire most.

Edited June 17, 2006 by sbell111

[+AuntieWeasel]

You would do yourself a huge favor by not posting on certain issues.

 

Ummmm...I would? Well. Okay. I have no earthly idea what this means, but I like the sound of "huge favor". If anybody needs an address to send wads of cash to, please let me know.

[+sbell111]

I could very well be wrong, but the perception I have is after a long absence you have returned with an agenda. Why you were gone I don't know, but it seems like after the trashing you took over the fiasco...yada yada

Do I have an agenda? Maybe, haven't thought about it... certainly not one I can formulate words for, I just know I was slaughtered when NOT posting, so coming in here and defending myself, sharing my thoughts and ideas, trying to make this a safe and fun environment for all geocachers can't be any worse.

CR's post describing his response to this thread matches my impressions to a "T". ...

I also agree with CR on this one. You might note that this is a fairly rare occurence. Edited June 17, 2006 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

You would do yourself a huge favor by not posting on certain issues.

 

Ummmm...I would? Well. Okay. I have no earthly idea what this means, but I like the sound of "huge favor". If anybody needs an address to send wads of cash to, please let me know.

Not you, silly. Him!

 

<I'll fix it.>

[+Torry]

Over the last 6-7 years I have joined or lurked in dozens of forums from porn/gore sites to demo derby sites to creative writing sites and variety of others.

 

I have lurked or joined many local geocaching sites. These forums are so incredibly average, middle of the road, white-bread normal that it is almost sad.

 

I LOVE the language filters and have no problem with their existence. I am very much in favor of the family-friendly rules and wish to see them remain in place.

 

I have been to forums where my first post was greeted with "shouts" of derision. The main basis for the criticiism was that I was a "Newbie" and therefore not worthy of being heard. Some of the worst (several comments on the size of my male organs being the prime weapon of attack) came from a moderator. When I answered in kind I was promptly banned. A quick re-register on a different computer later I re-visited the site where the "regulars" were congratulating each other for their performance. I haven't visited since.

 

The angst comes and goes with the changing winds. Posters come and go. Life goes on.

 

This place ain't so bad. ... and I like the food.

[+sbell111]

I think that I just learned more than I wanted to about the pig.