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Moote

Do You Know What A Drystone Wall Is?

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I have just noticed a cache which has been Archived due to people thinking that it was in a Drystone wall, when in fact it is not it is in a Mortared topped wall. Why do people jump up and down when they think it is a Drystone wall, should we not use our eyes investigate if the wall is Drystone or not!

 

Mortared top wall were often used in the late 19th and early 20th centuries around building projects like dams and Quarries, as they are considered sturdier than a Drystone wall.

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I would say going by the date that the walls were made, that they are still of a historical value and should also be protected against caches being placed in them.

 

Your statement moote goes along the same lines as the Americans attitude towards dry stane wall. There are plenty of them and they aren't really that important. This was the general attitude in an American thread about walls.

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I have just noticed a cache which has been Archived due to people thinking that it was in a Drystone wall...

 

Link please! <_<

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I have just noticed a cache which has been Archived due to people thinking that it was in a Drystone wall, when in fact it is not it is in a Mortared topped wall. Why do people jump up and down when they think it is a Drystone wall, should we not use our eyes investigate if the wall is Drystone or not!

Drystone or mortar topped wall, when a cacher starts dismantalling the thing in search of a cache, what's the difference?

 

What's your point?

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I have just noticed a cache which has been Archived due to people thinking that it was in a Drystone wall, when in fact it is not it is in a Mortared topped wall. Why do people jump up and down when they think it is a Drystone wall, should we not use our eyes investigate if the wall is Drystone or not!

Drystone or mortar topped wall, when a cacher starts dismantalling the thing in search of a cache, what's the difference?

 

What's your point?

The point is if we say "Drystone" that means drystone, if we include mortared, then there are a lot of caches requiring archiving, as all walls are either mortared or drystone.

 

So should we be saying caches should not be hidden in on or near any wall?

 

Linky for he who asked Emma's TB Hotel

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I agree with moote, plus the use of a bit of common sense, if the tops been motared it sghould be stable enough, that doesn't mean to say thayt the placer starts pulling bricks out just to place a cache, anyone looking should be respectfull of the wall and not start pulling chunks out of it, although if it is constructed correctly you won't be able to

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Dry stone or mortar topped, I don't really see the difference, wouldn't touch either of them with a barge pole if I was setting!

 

EVEN if the cache setter places the cache in an existing gap, what is to say that all that follow will have the same integrity? <_<

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Dry stone or mortar topped, I don't really see the difference, wouldn't touch either of them with a barge pole if I was setting!

 

EVEN if the cache setter places the cache in an existing gap, what is to say that all that follow will have the same integrity? <_<

My point is the more we push the rules the less places we get to place caches, this cache in my eyes was OK

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Moote,

The cache you are referring to has been archived by a moderator subsequent to a previous (and experienced) finders comments.

Do you disagree with with the moderator's decision to archive the cache on the basis of the wall construction only?

Jon

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I had a negative experience with one of my caches.

It's hidden in an area that was constructed in 1997, with the walls made to look like they were much older.

A multi-stage micro was placed in a gap at footlevel (with enough info given on the cache page telling finders where to look, asking them not to pull stones out of the wall).

 

However, despite the fact that the entire wall was mortared, an over cautious cacher took offense and went straight to the mods (without contacting me first). A quick email had the situation resolved with the mods. I've never worked out who it was, as they just left a scribble in the logbook (I've since re-done the multi).

 

So yes, some caches do appear to need to be educated on the differences, but what is even worse is those cachers who place their cache nearby to a DSW, but don't give any indication on the page that the cache definitely isn't placed inside it.

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As I recall, there were other issues with the cache - mainly that you had to cross the wall or the fence next to it, and tresspass on to an area with no ROW to search for and retrieve the cache.

 

T

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unfortunately relying on people and their common sense to not pull out loads of rocks and to replace as they find it are often doomed.

 

most people are sensible but it only takes one....

 

and the only restriction is in not placing within the wall so not restricting locations place it nearby..... and make sure that this is noted in the description.

 

better to include a few mortar topped walls than risk any dry stone ones.

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Thanks to contributors so far for understanding the problem we mods have with such locations. The dry stone wall "guideline" was introduced here in the UK by Eckington and I to try and prevent damage being caused. It is not a Geocaching.com guideline.

 

The thinking behind it was that while a cache setter may well take care to find a non damaging location, a cache hunter will be searching a relatively large area and will not know how careful the setter has been. They may well feel the need to move a stone or two. The next hunter might move a different stone or two and before long visible damage has been done. We felt it best that people got used to the fact that when in the vicinity of a dry stone wall, although it would make a great hiding place they know it can't be there so they don't feel tempted to start dismantling parts of it.

 

Of course, much as we'd like to, Eckington and I cannot personallly visit every cache we review <_< so we rely on being told about problems. When such a problem is reported we try and contact the owner but in some instances we feel obliged to act unilaterally.

 

Unfortunately what constitutes a dry stone wall is not totally clear and in some cases a location is open to interpretation. What about an old wall which has totally collapsed into a loose pile of stones? What about a partially mortared wall? What about a pile of stones next to a wall? And so on.

 

The bottom line is that we try to use common sense. We don't always get it right but I think on balance the guideline works pretty well.

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I have just noticed a cache which has been Archived due to people thinking that it was in a Drystone wall, when in fact it is not it is in a Mortared topped wall. Why do people jump up and down when they think it is a Drystone wall, should we not use our eyes investigate if the wall is Drystone or not!

 

Only just spotted this one...

 

On a slightly related topic, is it not a little hypocritical of a cacher to report a cache as SBA because he considers it to be illegally placed and at the same time logging it as a find! Sure he found it, but isn't he condoning its placement by logging it? Whilst I admit that deleting his log was, perhaps, done in a fit of pique, my reasoning was as stated. (As an aside, I hadn't realised it was subsequently possible to log a find against an archived cache: surely a bug!)

 

I had considered earlier comments regarding there being several more suitable places to hide a cache nearby, however, I decided that it should not be up to somebody else to dictate where I place my cache. That is not to say that I will not accept the decision of the moderators: on the contrary, I will accept it, even though I and others disagree with it. In this case, however, I would prefer to remove the cache container, leave the cache archived and release the general area for someone else to place their cache.

 

It is not necessary to climb the wall or fence, there's a gap to squeeze through!

 

Farmers' fields? There are far greater crimes: only this week I witnessed a couple walking two unleashed dogs on a public footpath through a field of newly born lambs (and their mothers), but that's a separte rant...

 

Perhaps we should call for a 10m exclusion zone around ALL walls, after all, our GPSs are not that accurate! In which case I must archive Pirate's before it has even been found (for the avoidance of doubt, Pirate's is NOT in a wall, drystone or otherwise, but NEAR one!

 

BB

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On a slightly related topic, is it not a little hypocritical of a cacher to report a cache as SBA because he considers it to be illegally placed and at the same time logging it as a find! Sure he found it, but isn't he condoning its placement by logging it? Whilst I admit that deleting his log was, perhaps, done in a fit of pique, my reasoning was as stated. (As an aside, I hadn't realised it was subsequently possible to log a find against an archived cache: surely a bug!)

 

 

No, I don't think it's hypocritical at all. You go out to find a cache, you find it, you log. If you have comments to make about a cache....that's a separate matter. If you deleted his log because you didn't like his SBA; that's just being.... as you say...

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On a similar note I could name three caches that all break the guidelines of where a cache should be placed, one in a brick wall, one in a dry-stone wall and one in a cairn! Should I report them to "the powers that be" or would a private email be better?

 

Edited to remove the ofending line - sorry!

Edited by The Golem

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If the wall owner decided he/she was happy to have the cache in their wall then only prob we can see is if the cache container was part of a multi .If a seeker made incorrect calculationsat another stage they could end up in wrong place where co-incidently there is another such wall .

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On a similar note I could name three caches that all break the guidelines of where a cache should be placed, one in a brick wall, one in a dry-stone wall and one in a cairn! Should I report them to the Thought Police or would a private email be better?

 

I presume by "Thought Police" you are referring to me <_<

 

If you have concerns about a cache I would suggest that your first course of action should be to contact the owner directly. If you get no response or are still unhappy then feel free to contact a local reviewer (Eckington or I) to see if we can help. If you are still unhappy then contact@geocaching.com is another option.

 

However, be prepared for the possibility that others might not see things the way you do :lol: !!

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I've had an issue with Dallan72 and a wall once... but rather different from this one. A cache of mine had lost its cover and been muggled, and some visitors kindly replaced the box and placed it at the foot of a wall. I made the clue clear it was at the foot of the wall under a stone, and not IN the wall. However, when Dallan72 visited he reported the new box had been damaged (when Badgers attack?) and that it was really tucked 'under' the wall rather than at the foot of it.

 

So far so good. Then he bought a replacement lock-n-lock box out of his own money and, at my request, moved the box to another, better location. It's still close to the wall but has better cover. He sent photos to show where it is, and gave advice on a good clue. The page still makes it clear it's not in the wall. A note on that - If 'It's not in the wall' is a part of the clue, don't encrypt it! Put it in brackets, thus: [ ] and it'll be clear on the page for all to read (if they do read the page, of course <_< )

 

Anyway, who could have done more to help me out? Had I have failed to respond to his contact it's possible the cache might have been archived but since I was very open to suggestions - and practical help - to keep the cache both live AND placed in an environmentally responsible way there wasn't a problem. I said thanks on the cache page at the time but I'd also like to say a public thanks to Dallan72 here too. Cheers buddy!

 

Back to Moote's original thoughts - A dry stone wall is one made without mortar, and is thus an artfully balanced pile of rocks. A mortared wall is one big solid lump with much less 'art' involved. And no balancing required. A mortar-topped wall is a dry stone wall with a 'seal' of mortared stones across the top to lock it all in place. The stones below are still basically balanced on top of each other and are at danger of the same sort of disturbance as a dry stone wall. I'd want a very clear cache page or clue before going anywhere near one.

 

Bexybear's 'it's only a little bit of trespass' comment doesn't really excuse the hide. I have been known to jump the odd fence (bing quite fat I don't squeeze through gaps that well) but it doesn't explain what was wrong with keeping cachers on the ROW side of the wall. I'm sure a little tweak of the location and the co-ords on the page would have fixed this cache just fine and it's a shame it's been archived. It sounds like an interesting location.

 

P.S. Logging a find on a 'naughty' cache: Did you find it: [Yes] [No] Delete as appropriate.

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On a similar note I could name three caches that all break the guidelines of where a cache should be placed, one in a brick wall, one in a dry-stone wall and one in a cairn! Should I report them to the Thought Police or would a private email be better?

 

I presume by "Thought Police" you are referring to me <_<

 

If you have concerns about a cache I would suggest that your first course of action should be to contact the owner directly. If you get no response or are still unhappy then feel free to contact a local reviewer (Eckington or I) to see if we can help. If you are still unhappy then contact@geocaching.com is another option.

 

However, be prepared for the possibility that others might not see things the way you do :lol: !!

 

Original post edited - my apologies! :P

 

How could someone not see it from my point of view? :lol:

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Time to reply after all the fuss I seem to have caused...

 

I've had an issue with Dallan72 and a wall once... but rather different from this one. A cache of mine had lost its cover and been muggled, and some visitors kindly replaced the box and placed it at the foot of a wall. I made the clue clear it was at the foot of the wall under a stone, and not IN the wall. However, when Dallan72 visited he reported the new box had been damaged (when Badgers attack?) and that it was really tucked 'under' the wall rather than at the foot of it.

 

So far so good. Then he bought a replacement lock-n-lock box out of his own money and, at my request, moved the box to another, better location. It's still close to the wall but has better cover. He sent photos to show where it is, and gave advice on a good clue. The page still makes it clear it's not in the wall. A note on that - If 'It's not in the wall' is a part of the clue, don't encrypt it! Put it in brackets, thus: [ ] and it'll be clear on the page for all to read (if they do read the page, of course :laughing: )

 

Anyway, who could have done more to help me out? Had I have failed to respond to his contact it's possible the cache might have been archived but since I was very open to suggestions - and practical help - to keep the cache both live AND placed in an environmentally responsible way there wasn't a problem. I said thanks on the cache page at the time but I'd also like to say a public thanks to Dallan72 here too. Cheers buddy!

 

P.S. Logging a find on a 'naughty' cache: Did you find it: [Yes] [No] Delete as appropriate.

Thanks for that Paul. To be fair though if I remember correctly somebody else had been and reported it as being located in the base of the wall and I responded to a note you left on the cache page asking for it to be relocated by the next visitor. So along I came at 0730 on my way from Lancashire to Belfast for the day (the cache is just off the A75 near Gatehouse-of-Fleet) and relocated the remains of the container. Next day, on my way back from overnight at Stranraer, I replaced the box with a brand new one from Tesco's in Belfast. As I said at the time, it's all part of the service!

 

But the difference with Simply Paul's cache GCPGAP is that he had responded to some previous comments and sought to relocate it. Emma's TB Hotel had received comments in the past about being located somewhere it shouldn't be, and was apparently even going to be relocted on Boxing Day, but still remained there. I'm no wall expert, but this particular wall certainly had loose stones in the middle, one of which was hiding the cache, and as Tigger quite rightly pointed out the cache was also across the fence/wall from the road and public ROW, gap (which I never noticed) or no gap. Hardly terrain 1 as listed. I'd already been poking about on the other side of the wall, so somebody could quite easily have pulled out the "wrong" stone and caused some serious damage.

 

So I posted an SBA to alert the reviewers that there may be a problem with the cache, on the grounds of the wall and trespass, just following the system previously encouraged in the forums. What happens next is between the reviewer and cache owner. No problem: no archive. Problem: archive and/or sort it out. The problem is that not many cachers seem to post SBAs because, I believe, of the rather negative name "Should be Archived" and the backlash like this that sometimes occurs. Instead, caches either remain located in silly/dangerous/"illegal" places or temporarily disabled for months and months. The reviewers are good, but they can't monitor every single cache!

 

Back to Moote's original and subsequent posts, I was somewhat surprised at his stance

My point is the more we push the rules the less places we get to place caches, this cache in my eyes was OK

since this cache doesn't appear to meet GAGB guidelines re. crossing fences, landowner permission and being hidden in stone walls and yet he has previously been referring cachers to these very same guidelines for help placing their first cache etc. Fair enough, it might be a mortar-topped drystone and not just pure drystone, but does that really make it any better and a suitable hiding place??

 

I still don't understand why Bexybear didn't just relocate the cache on Boxing Day to a suitable place on the other side of the wall, but not in it. That way it should meet the guidelines so problem solved!

 

P.S. Logging a find on a 'naughty' cache: Did I find it: [Yes]

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Mortared top wall were often used in the late 19th and early 20th centuries around building projects like dams and Quarries, as they are considered sturdier than a Drystone wall.

 

The assumption that a mortar topped wall is sturdier is not necessarily true. A mortar topped wall can be sturdier but more often than not it is simply an added weakness.

As a wall settles it locks all the individual stones in place increasing in strength (that includes the toppers/copes) if they're mortared in place they're unable to settle and form a bridge over the top/last course of stones. The whole point of top stones is to lock both faces of the wall into place by their weight across the top of both faces. One or both faces will eventually collapse if the toppers are not in contact and leave a hole beneath the mortared tops.

 

We advise all our clients that if they want mortared tops we will return after 6 to 12 months to finish up after the wall has settled. (a square yard of DSW has about 1 ton of stone in it)

 

Today the majority of mortared walls are around house and road developments because contractors and councils are worried about health and safety issues or some lowlife nicking the tops (and if you saw the price of half round hogs backs you'd understand).

 

Yes we'd like the work but we have enough on right now so I think it's best to leave dry stone walls well alone. :laughing:

 

team_loumon takes off his dry stone wallers hat and puts on his fireproof suit in anticipation. :)

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Moote is out of town so can't contribute ATM.

 

Having met him at a local bash today...

 

he's not a bad chap really... for a northerner

 

:):laughing::)

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lacto thought police??? :D surely those two words are mutaully exclusive :lol: well certainly after opening time at the local.!!!! :D

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This is not a Drystone wall it is Mortar top built during the construction of a nearby dam. These are not part of the guidelines for none placement. The wall is as solid as a rock

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Well, if Moote says it's ok, that's good enough for me. Lacto? Unarchive this innocent cache at once. You should know better than to take the repeatedly logged concerns of cachers seriously...etc...etc.

 

I know I'm just stirring things up...but...Hands...of....Orlac!

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Well, if Moote says it's ok, that's good enough for me. Lacto? Unarchive this innocent cache at once. You should know better than to take the repeatedly logged concerns of cachers seriously...etc...etc.

 

I know I'm just stirring things up...but...Hands...of....Orlac!

 

Paul, that's out of order... I'd suggest you apologise for taking the piss out of Moote and his posts. We are all entitled to an opinion, and your very poor attempt at humour isn't called for on this occasion.

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These are not part of the guidelines for none placement.

Hmmmm! Double standards me thinks?

 

You should look back at some of your other points Moote? I think you may find you have demanded stuff to happen in the past, that doesn't meet the guidelines. Now you want something that is important to others to be ignored because it isn't in the guidelines.

 

When it comes to guidelines, which side of the fence does the GAGB sit on??

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trouble is moote that lacto only has your word for that.

 

now i'm not saying you're lying but does he trust everyone who says that it's not a dry stone wall? or just those people that he's met or .......

 

can't have grey areas, they do a hard enough job for free as it is. straight easy to interpret guidelines that everyone can understand with no grey areas. remember these guys are getting on a bit now!!! :laughing:

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Mortared top wall were often used in the late 19th and early 20th centuries around building projects like dams and Quarries, as they are considered sturdier than a Drystone wall.

 

The assumption that a mortar topped wall is sturdier is not necessarily true. A mortar topped wall can be sturdier but more often than not it is simply an added weakness.

As a wall settles it locks all the individual stones in place increasing in strength (that includes the toppers/copes) if they're mortared in place they're unable to settle and form a bridge over the top/last course of stones. The whole point of top stones is to lock both faces of the wall into place by their weight across the top of both faces. One or both faces will eventually collapse if the toppers are not in contact and leave a hole beneath the mortared tops.

 

We advise all our clients that if they want mortared tops we will return after 6 to 12 months to finish up after the wall has settled. (a square yard of DSW has about 1 ton of stone in it)

 

Today the majority of mortared walls are around house and road developments because contractors and councils are worried about health and safety issues or some lowlife nicking the tops (and if you saw the price of half round hogs backs you'd understand).

 

Yes we'd like the work but we have enough on right now so I think it's best to leave dry stone walls well alone. :huh:

 

team_loumon takes off his dry stone wallers hat and puts on his fireproof suit in anticipation. :ph34r:

 

Read the above from someone whose job entails Dry Stone and Mortared Top Walls, from them it sounds like Mortar Topped can be just a vulnerable as Dry Stone walls and as such should be added onto the list in the GAGB guidelines used by our reviewers. A issue I intend raising on the GAGB forum.

 

Dave

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Mortared top wall were often used in the late 19th and early 20th centuries around building projects like dams and Quarries, as they are considered sturdier than a Drystone wall.

 

The assumption that a mortar topped wall is sturdier is not necessarily true. A mortar topped wall can be sturdier but more often than not it is simply an added weakness.

As a wall settles it locks all the individual stones in place increasing in strength (that includes the toppers/copes) if they're mortared in place they're unable to settle and form a bridge over the top/last course of stones. The whole point of top stones is to lock both faces of the wall into place by their weight across the top of both faces. One or both faces will eventually collapse if the toppers are not in contact and leave a hole beneath the mortared tops.

 

We advise all our clients that if they want mortared tops we will return after 6 to 12 months to finish up after the wall has settled. (a square yard of DSW has about 1 ton of stone in it)

 

Today the majority of mortared walls are around house and road developments because contractors and councils are worried about health and safety issues or some lowlife nicking the tops (and if you saw the price of half round hogs backs you'd understand).

 

Yes we'd like the work but we have enough on right now so I think it's best to leave dry stone walls well alone. :huh:

 

team_loumon takes off his dry stone wallers hat and puts on his fireproof suit in anticipation. :ph34r:

 

Read the above from someone whose job entails Dry Stone and Mortared Top Walls, from them it sounds like Mortar Topped can be just a vulnerable as Dry Stone walls and as such should be added onto the list in the GAGB guidelines used by our reviewers. A issue I intend raising on the GAGB forum.

 

Dave

 

We've all seen mortar topped walls with the mortar remaining like a bridge over a pile of fallen dry stones.

 

Great post Team_louman and go to it Dave.

 

If it's a wall and has dry stones...

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When it comes to guidelines, which side of the fence does the GAGB sit on??

 

It's a wall, not a fence, and as I've already said, you do not need to climb (or sit on) it to reach the cache...:ph34r:

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For those interested in the issue I've posted a new thread on GAGB regarding adding Mortared Top Walls to the GAGB Guidelines. Please if your going to post any comments to the thread keep it factual and No personal attacks.

 

Dave

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trouble is moote that lacto only has your word for that.

 

...............does he trust everyone .................?

 

Generally yes :ph34r: . Geocachers are almost always a trustworthy bunch I've found over the years I've spent at the game. Sure things can sometimes get a bit heated here on the forum but they quieten down as quickly as they flare up.

 

The main problems we have are matters of opinion and interpretation, not matters of fact.

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trouble is moote that lacto only has your word for that.

 

...............does he trust everyone .................?

 

OK I have done this cache, most who have replied here have not been there; does it affect me if it is archived? No; as I have no vested interest. I was stating a point.

 

There is a definition of Drystone wall; there is a definition of mortared top walls, the GAGB guidelines are for Drystone walls, they make no mention of Mortared topped walls

 

If (as some are here) we push the guidelines to include more places where not to place caches, then ultimately we will loose more areas to place caches.

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Mortared top wall were often used in the late 19th and early 20th centuries around building projects like dams and Quarries, as they are considered sturdier than a Drystone wall.

 

The assumption that a mortar topped wall is sturdier is not necessarily true. A mortar topped wall can be sturdier but more often than not it is simply an added weakness.

As a wall settles it locks all the individual stones in place increasing in strength (that includes the toppers/copes) if they're mortared in place they're unable to settle and form a bridge over the top/last course of stones. The whole point of top stones is to lock both faces of the wall into place by their weight across the top of both faces. One or both faces will eventually collapse if the toppers are not in contact and leave a hole beneath the mortared tops.

 

We advise all our clients that if they want mortared tops we will return after 6 to 12 months to finish up after the wall has settled. (a square yard of DSW has about 1 ton of stone in it)

 

Today the majority of mortared walls are around house and road developments because contractors and councils are worried about health and safety issues or some lowlife nicking the tops (and if you saw the price of half round hogs backs you'd understand).

 

Yes we'd like the work but we have enough on right now so I think it's best to leave dry stone walls well alone. :huh:

 

team_loumon takes off his dry stone wallers hat and puts on his fireproof suit in anticipation. :ph34r:

 

Read the above from someone whose job entails Dry Stone and Mortared Top Walls, from them it sounds like Mortar Topped can be just a vulnerable as Dry Stone walls and as such should be added onto the list in the GAGB guidelines used by our reviewers. A issue I intend raising on the GAGB forum.

 

Dave

 

We've all seen mortar topped walls with the mortar remaining like a bridge over a pile of fallen dry stones.

 

Great post Team_louman and go to it Dave.

 

If it's a wall and has dry stones...

This is a wall built to look like a Drystone wall, it was something they did in civil engineering in the early 20th century. As for building Drystone walls I also have been involved doing this for the RRCPC.

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Please if your going to post any comments to the thread keep it factual and No personal attacks.

 

I'm not sure if this is aimed at me, with my GAGB side of the fence comment? If it is then allow me to explain why I asked!

 

To my knowledge Moote is still a committee member for the GAGB. So in my view whilst he is on the committee, his sometimes off the wall opinion reflects that of GAGB. If it does not reflect that of GAGB then he should not be on the committee.

It's a bit like being a politician, in the military or even perhaps one of our illustrious approvers, you aren't allowed your own opinion whilst you represent the larger cause.

 

If (as some are here) we push the guidelines to include more places where not to place caches, then ultimately we will loose more areas to place caches.

If this means protecting historical features/sites and our environment then I am all for it. This is one of the downsides of losing the virtuals. I believe you mentioned in a previous thread that we have plenty room in the UK for placing caches. Let's not deface our countryside, just so that we can get more boxes out there!

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HH I promise my request was not at anyone, I'd actually read your comment as being joking. It was from experience of several years on this forum, seeing issues where those who have posted, feel strongly about the issue degenerate into personal attacks. As this topic I believe has highlighted a Grey Area in the GAGB Guidelines which needs clarifying.

 

Note that's not a attempt to put more areas out of bounds, but just to make things clearer and so help to avoid issues like this again. Descriptions of a Dry Stone Wall with a mortared top and a wall constructed using slab stones with a mortared top would help those who have concerns differentiate between them.

 

Dave

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Please if your going to post any comments to the thread keep it factual and No personal attacks.

 

I'm not sure if this is aimed at me, with my GAGB side of the fence comment? If it is then allow me to explain why I asked!

 

To my knowledge Moote is still a committee member for the GAGB. So in my view whilst he is on the committee, his sometimes off the wall opinion reflects that of GAGB. If it does not reflect that of GAGB then he should not be on the committee.

It's a bit like being a politician, in the military or even perhaps one of our illustrious approvers, you aren't allowed your own opinion whilst you represent the larger cause.

 

If (as some are here) we push the guidelines to include more places where not to place caches, then ultimately we will loose more areas to place caches.

If this means protecting historical features/sites and our environment then I am all for it. This is one of the downsides of losing the virtuals. I believe you mentioned in a previous thread that we have plenty room in the UK for placing caches. Let's not deface our countryside, just so that we can get more boxes out there!

I am still a committee member this is correct, and all I am doing is reflecting what is written in the Geocaching Guidelines on the GAGB website.

 

The GAGB guidelines only mention Drystone walls, and from what I know of the wall it is as modern as a lot of other structures I have seen caches placed in or on. We could argue for ever on these points but one thing is certain, once you start this downward spiral of where not to place it will sink deeper and deeper as we self in force a narrowing of places. It is important that the Guidelines followed, but it appears that as soon I raise an issues, it becomes a big thing on here.

 

I understand where you are coming from with the protection of historical features, but unfortunately quite a lots of modern structures soon become historic icons. Maybe we should only place in areas that have no buildings, so that now wipes out a lot of good urban caches as any cache near a building could be perceived a threat.

 

But also I could equally argue that placing in some plant type area (such as near nettles) can damage the wild life as these are important to various butterflies, which are soon becoming extinct, or any cave that supports a protected bat population (Nearly every cave in the south of England and many in Northern England) should be archived. These are equally or greater issues to the countries ecology but we rave about some caches which are placed in these types of area.

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I am still a committee member this is correct, and all I am doing is reflecting what is written in the Geocaching Guidelines on the GAGB website.

Just to clarify matters, does the above mean you are speaking for the GAGB on this, or are these privately held views ?

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I am still a committee member this is correct, and all I am doing is reflecting what is written in the Geocaching Guidelines on the GAGB website.

Just to clarify matters, does the above mean you are speaking for the GAGB on this, or are these privately held views ?

It means I am reading their website and the site only mentions Drystone walls. It does not mention UK Government protected speleological site where bats roost, which can gain you a criminal record for disturbing bats. Or none SSSI flower meadows, where some endangered species of butterflies live.

 

There is no single mention on the GAGB website of Mortared walls, which are not Drystone walls as the construction techniques are different.

Edited by Moote

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I am still a committee member this is correct, and all I am doing is reflecting what is written in the Geocaching Guidelines on the GAGB website.

Just to clarify matters, does the above mean you are speaking for the GAGB on this, or are these privately held views ?

It means I am reading their website and the site only mentions Drystone walls. It does not mention UK Government protected speleological site where bats roost, which can gain you a criminal record for disturbing bats. Or none SSSI flower meadows, where some endangered species of butterflies live.

 

There is no single mention on the GAGB website of Mortared walls, which are not Drystone walls as the construction techniques are different.

Ah, a politicians answer to a simple question.

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I am still a committee member this is correct, and all I am doing is reflecting what is written in the Geocaching Guidelines on the GAGB website.

Just to clarify matters, does the above mean you are speaking for the GAGB on this, or are these privately held views ?

It means I am reading their website and the site only mentions Drystone walls. It does not mention UK Government protected speleological site where bats roost, which can gain you a criminal record for disturbing bats. Or none SSSI flower meadows, where some endangered species of butterflies live.

 

There is no single mention on the GAGB website of Mortared walls, which are not Drystone walls as the construction techniques are different.

Ah, a politicians answer to a simple question.

Well maybe I gain that from my Farther :ph34r: , but the answer is that their Guidelines state Drystone wall and that appears to be exclusive. I speak of what is on the website and that is where anyone can brush up on the Guidelines. It is almost a direct quote of the site and it is that I quote; I no need speak as a committee member here as that is what the site states categorically.

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So, if Emma's box is moved from the field side of the mortared-top wall to a similar position on the road side of the wall, there is no trespass involved, no climbing of walls or fences, and the wall falls outside of the guidelines...does my cache then get re-instated?

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Ah...I find myself understanding Moote's point of view.

 

Viewpoint 1 - in layman's terms a drystone wall has dry stones in it.

 

Viewpoint 2 - Drystone walls to mortar topped walls is at the thin end of a wedge of more places being considered unacceptable and where do we stop? Drystone walls are a kind of historical record of an areas appearance, mortar topped are a modern(ish) way of making stronger dry stone walls. Since they are modern and less fragile they don't need the same level of protection.

 

I have a thought that the GAGB probably didn't have expert knowledge of the types of drystone walls, so what were they intending or reacting to when the rule was drawn. If it intended to include mortar topped but didn't make the distinction that is not a reason to exploit the rule. (parallel - Political parties have to declare all gifts, so they make them called loans and don't declare them - it's not illegal, but it is against the spirit of the rules drawn up)

 

It could be to do with safety or the fact that someone pays for that wall to exist and will have to pay for it to be repaired as slowly dozens of cachers move stones out in the manner of a stoney Jenga game.

 

If there is a distinction between dry stone and mortar topped, and surely the permission of the wall's owner should be enough to sort it out - although I can't imagine any owner agreeing for the Jenga reason.

 

I understand the 'thin end of a wedge' argument and they's no point backing ourselves into a corner as rules can be too rigid sometimes when common sense can deal with most things. The thing with this is while most of us had a degree of common sense, some of us don't, or don't have the specialist knowledge so there is a danger of rules being imposed on us. Is it better to make our own rules than have someone else make our rules?

 

It's a tricky balancing act, having as few rules/guidelines as possible while not bringing the game into disrepute and Moote's point, legislating ourselves into extinction.

 

To keep on topic - did the cache have permission to be placed where it was?

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So, if Emma's box is moved from the field side of the mortared-top wall to a similar position on the road side of the wall, there is no trespass involved, no climbing of walls or fences, and the wall falls outside of the guidelines...does my cache then get re-instated?

Bexybear

 

I do know that this cache has a bit of sentimental added value to you and also 2 other cachers who were grateful for the story that it tells ;)

 

I do think that the fence was the only issue but I did skirt that in this debate, as I felt the main reason persons made issue was the Drystone wall element of the cache; but they were mistaken to believe this, I would think if the cache is placed the other side of the fence, Lacto or Ecky will re-enable it, just point them my way as a witness that it is not Drystone and I will back this up to the hilt.

 

Milton

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I understand the 'thin end of a wedge' argument and they's no point backing ourselves into a corner as rules can be too rigid sometimes when common sense can deal with most things. The thing with this is while most of us had a degree of common sense, some of us don't, or don't have the specialist knowledge so there is a danger of rules being imposed on us. Is it better to make our own rules than have someone else make our rules?

 

It's a tricky balancing act, having as few rules/guidelines as possible while not bringing the game into disrepute and Moote's point, legislating ourselves into extinction.

This quite adequately sums up my position on this matter; good cache placement is about using your common sense, I try and place all my caches in places which can stand an amount of extra abuse, I would be weary of placing in a rich fertile flower meadow, but in a copse I would usually be happy.

 

The same goes for man made structures, I had a nice "nano" hidden on the side of a building; it got heavily criticised, why? Because people could see them, not because the Georgian House would be pulled apart in the hunt; many missed the point of that Stealth cache. I just hope that Bexybear brings back his little gem so that I might smile whilst driving down the M62

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