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Paperless Caching?

The Golem

By The Golem
in United Kingdom and Ireland

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The Golem

+The Golem

Posted
Posted

Hi

I went out today and found 3 caches in a circuit around Buttermere. Before I set off I spent 20 minutes printing the cache sheets off and scribbling a few notes for each cache.

Now, as I know I will be caching for years to come I would be appreciate a bit of advice, I have heard a few references to "paperless caching" which I assume involves using some sort of hand held PC or similar such widget (a Palm?) Can someone give me an idea of the best model to choose and an idea of how much they might cost. I hope this doesn't turn into a row about which model is the best, I'd just like to find out about a suitable device and how much it's going to set me back. I am completely ignorant of these things - I refuse to own a mobile phone so getting a GPSr (Garmin GPS 12) was a big step!

 

Thankyou in advance.

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Moote

+Moote

Posted
Posted

I use a PocketPC and GPXSonar for paperless caching and if you are a premium member then this is the best tool for the job, you can also use the PPC for Memory Map so you can get OS mapping in a device the size of a wallet.

 

I know the Palm boys always come on an argue that they got their Palm PDA for 6 squid off eBay, but there is a good reason for this and that is the Palm is a nasty device which is only one up the development ladder from a calculator. :o

 

Milton (aka Moote)

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dpoet

dpoet

Posted
Posted

I hope you did Scale Force, while you were in Buttermere.

I am looking at PDA's for paperless caching.

Some people use Palm as they are cheap second hand, some prefer Windoze operating system.

Moote has done a post on using a Windows pda for caching

At the top of the UK forum is a link:-

Resources For Caching In The Uk And Ireland

I am looking at the Acer n50 Premium £220 at

www.ebuyer.co.uk quickfind code 83272

But i'm not sure which software is best, or which platform it runs on

Do a search this must have come up in the forums before

I hope this helps

dpoet

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Moote

+Moote

Posted
Posted
But i'm not sure which software is best, or which platform it runs on

Do a search this must have come up in the forums before

I hope this helps

dpoet

If you want more details on PDA / Software feel free to give me the info of your OS and I might be able to help. Unfortunately most PPC stuff is designed to work on WinDos XP

 

But I have run WinDos in a VM on a Linux box and done most things with a PDA using that. Sadly I went completely to WinDos after my employer kicked out our Sun box for a 2003 WinDos server. (I advised against of course) but saying that the PPC is more adaptable than a palm so it wins all the time for me in the pocket stakes

 

I also believe there is a rough rule of thumb here:

 

People South of Manchester prefer Palms

 

People North prefer PPC

 

Just an observation

 

Milton (aka Moote)

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The Royles

The Royles

Posted
Posted

I would say that you need to define what you want the device to do, as this will have a big bearing on the device and the price.

 

I am a PPC user, but I can see that the palm is a better choice if it does all you want it to.

 

Look at the software available for both, and decide what you want to run.

 

I use PPC purely because of mapping software.

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Moote

+Moote

Posted
Posted
I refuse to own a mobile phone

Oh now you should think of the benefits of a mobile phone; I always carry one both in the Hills and underground, Reason, well 30 mins saved on getting to the nearest telephone can be the difference of life and death for some unfortunate soul.

 

Milton (aka Moote)

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Nediam

Nediam

Posted
Posted

Mark and Lynn have an excellent "Paperless Caching Guide" check out this link and go to the Paperless Caching link. (If you have any trouble, right click the link and select "save as")

 

If you have any problems I'd suggest contacting them through their profile, they're nice and friendly and don't bite :D (hope they don't mind me posting the links now :D:D

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nobby.nobbs

nobby.nobbs

Posted
Posted

toshiba e750 ppc with mobipocket and os maps. great does all i want it to.

 

if a cheap palm will do all you need then go for it. but like lots of things you tend to find that you will use it more and more so it's better to buy as good as you can afford to start with than have to pay for an upgrade later.

 

best bet is find a couple of local cachers and go out with them to see then make a decision later

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Learned Gerbil

+Learned Gerbil

Posted
Posted

People South of Manchester prefer Palms

 

People North prefer PPC

No, no, no!

We're a lomg way south of Manchester, (Hampshire) and own both a Pocket PC and a Palm T3. One is a poorly designed, slightly too small doorstop, and the other is a magnificently designed, highly capable Pocket PC.

Personally I find my Palm to be well designed, cheap and elegant whilst I find my PPC to be burdened with a resource hungry poorly designed operating system that seems designed to inconvinence the user at every step. I would recommend peopel get a cheap Palm, use it for a few months, and then make decisions on what OS and what power they need. Saying "get the most powerful you can" makes no sense whe nyou can buy a cheap Palm for £30 now knowing that after Christmas the "most powerful" device will probably be £50 cheaper than it is now and you will be making more informed choices when you buy it.

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Moote

+Moote

Posted
Posted (edited)
Personally I find my Palm to be well designed, cheap and elegant whilst I find my PPC to be burdened with a resource hungry poorly designed operating system that seems designed to inconvinence the user at every step. I would recommend peopel get a cheap Palm, use it for a few months, and then make decisions on what OS and what power they need. Saying "get the most powerful you can" makes no sense whe nyou can buy a cheap Palm for £30 now knowing that after Christmas the "most powerful" device will probably be £50 cheaper than it is now and you will be making more informed choices when you buy it.

Well as I have stated before and will state clearly again The Palm is the LADA of the PDA world it is low spec cheap highly unadaptable and user unfriendly. The PocketPC is probably the most brilliant design and OS that Microsoft have created (I'm no MS fan either)

 

I know we will now get the same old argument that you can run CacheMate on a PPC. Well brilliant, I also have a Palm and installed CacheMate and for the Money it's nothing special.

 

Now try this with a Palm

 

I run can simultaneously the following on my PPC TomTom 5, and MemoryMap and GPSTuner all tracking at the same time using my Bluetooth GPS, whilst GPXSonar (Cachemate equivalent but free) is running and Surf to GC.com over Bluetooth connection.

 

Try that on a Palm, Oh no sorry it can't adequately multitask because the processor is not designed for that!

 

Now whey can you buy a palm on eBay for the cost of a can of Fizzy drink? Well it's because people like myself who initially purchased a Palm realize that they were hoodwinked by the cheap price and did not realize that it really was an archaic lump of technology that has failed to keep up with modern needs of the human race!

 

PLEASE STOP BANGING ON ABOUT HOW GOOD YOUR PALM IS I HAVE BEEN THERE DONE IT AND BOUGHT A POCKET PC

 

Milton (aka Moote)

Edited by Moote
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HazelS

+HazelS

Posted
Posted

here here Moote....

 

Phill had both a Palm and an Ipaq before we started caching, and so we have had the opportunity to do both...

 

We quickly upgraded the Ipaq (not because we had to, just because we wanted Bluetooth) and it's fabulous!

 

It's become more than just a paperless caching tool... we have a Bluetooth GPS receiver and so we have wireless Tom Tom in the car on it too - totally invaluable.

 

PLUS Phill uses it for work everyday.

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Alibags

+Alibags

Posted
Posted

...and this, ladies and gentlemen, illustrates clearly why you never seem to be able to have an objective discussion on paperless caching in these forums. I have no idea where Moote got his rather strange idea of a North South divide regarding palms versus PPCs from... it seems rather arbitary and not my experience at all.

 

Ho hum :D

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markandlynn

markandlynn

Posted
Posted

Palm cheap cheerfull does the job perfectly well and if you drop it and break it well its only £10 off ebay for another one.

Cachemate the latest version is even better than before

I dont use PPC because of cost if i allready owned one i would not go out walking with it because of the cost.

Palm Vx holds 4000 cache pages with previous logs on cachemate

Lada's well priced, do the job, no fancy looks, relliable, strong history of development nicely put argument for Palm vs PPC oops nearly forgot to put something in my post in bold

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markandlynn

markandlynn

Posted
Posted
If I shelled out £150 what could I get?

Have a look about on ebay.

My only advice based on a personal experience in the field when my £10 palm dropped 2 inches and stopped working is do you really want to carry £150 worth of kit up a hill and get it soaked, dropped or damaged ?

There are ways to go paperless with both palm and ppc.

Have a look at spoilersync as well this may make the memory requirements you have greater and make a colour screen a must.

The more memory you have the better as for the other functions on these things some people use them our palms are used exclusively for geocaching.

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Alibags

+Alibags

Posted
Posted

I wonder if somebody clever could put together a comparison chart of devices that can be used for paperless caching? That would be useful. People could submit the features of their particular combination to build such a list up.

 

One thing that amused me was that at any given event, when people get their PDAs out, absolutely everybody seems to have something different.

 

I have been sulking since they stopped making Psions... :D

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daytribe

+daytribe

Posted
Posted

I have had a Pocket PC for about 3 years now (since before I began Geocaching) and have tried paperless caching a couple of times.

 

I find that it actually takes longer to prepare the cache information and maps for downloading to the PDA than it does to hit print and wait for the paper to come out.

 

Having said that though, I agree with Alibags. A comparison chart would be very useful for newbie and seasoned cachers alike.

 

To some extent we are all experts in our hobby/sport, however we choose to do it.

So who better to do it. We can all contribute. (Any takers with webpage space and the knowledge to create a chart).

 

To simplify things though:

 

This subject could combine three areas; GPS, PDA's & in-car sat nav.

Most of us already have a GPS and we can all read a map (well, nearly all :D ) to get close to the cache. So to keep it simple, lets stick to the actual paperless caching bit.

 

I use a Pocket PC (£180 new) (before I knew about ebay)

GPXSonar (Free) (Software for viewing your cache detail pages)

Memory Map Ordnance Survey (£10-£20 s/hand on ebay) (for downloading OS maps to PDA for viewing in the field)

 

Is this helpful?

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markandlynn

markandlynn

Posted
Posted

OK here goes my kit

Paper OS maps buy them when i need them

GSAK (£8) can export to palm and autoroute directly.

Palm Vx (two of) £10 each hold 4000 caches but normally i have the 490 nearest to home.

Etrex yellow holding 490 waypoints.

Aluminium carry case for palm (came with order)

Cachemate from smittyware (£6)

Microsoft autoroute £15 for importing CSV files (from GSAK) for pushpins into for ease of route finding.

PC to GPS lead (£15)

Palm to GPS lead for when on holiday (£15)

2300 nimh batteries and car recharging units.

Given money i would buy Memory Map and a laptop.

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Learned Gerbil

+Learned Gerbil

Posted
Posted
PLEASE STOP BANGING ON ABOUT HOW GOOD YOUR PALM IS I HAVE BEEN THERE DONE IT AND BOUGHT A POCKET PC

I think you are the one who is banging on - but as I have been accused of banging on about Palms I might as well. Palms don't multitask which is why they do so much with a cheaper meaner better designed interface. I can do all those things if I want with a Palm - just one at a time - multitasking is of little use when you can only view one application at a time. Palm's much better use of resources like memory means that switching applications is very fast almost eliminating the need for mutlitasking. I know, some people like to use their PPC with TomTom and listen to MP3 files at the same time - but I seriously doubt this discussion is about that (and a small MP3 player costs about the same as a £30 Palm not ten times as much like a PPC).

 

BTW I have been there also - I use both a PPC and a Palm and I would rather drive a Lada than a Humvee if that is what it comes to (not that I accept the Palm/Lada analogy).

 

Oh yes - another advantage of Palm over PPC (remember I have both) - My old cheap colour Palm stays charged in my pocket fro about two weeks between charges - my six month old IPAQ lasts about four days. If I actually use the devices the battery in the IPAQ lasts about two hours of continuous use, the cheap nasty Lada like Palm that costs almost nothing lasts almost all day. How much multitasking can you do when the device is dead?

 

This is my lastword in this thread on the subject. They are different devices that do broadly the same stuff in different ways. You do not need an expensive device for paperless caching. If you want to buy a PPC it is easier to do certain things like in- car satnav and you have more choice with mapping products. But none of that comes in the box - and none of it is cheap. That is why I said it was best to spend a little on a cheap Palm - see what it can do for you, and then think about what you want move on to - the economics of buying a £300 PDA and finding you don't use it make no sense unless you are sure in advance you know what you want and what you are going to do with it.

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purple_pineapple

+purple_pineapple

Posted
Posted

I appeat to have an almost identical setup to Markandlynn - guess who I learnt from!! :D Different PDA (Tungsten E) holds all the caches I want it to, as has 1Gb SD card in, but makes searching awkward, so I also keep the 480 or so caches I'm interested in.

 

The only thing I don't have is a GPS to Palm lead. Is this so that you can take lots of cache notes on holiday on the palm, and then download to the GPS when you need them? If so, then i side step this by using a laptop on holiday.

 

Oh, and I don't have many paper OS maps yet, as I rely on autoroute for that bit, although I may start expanding my collection bit by bit!

 

Finally, one other thing - is the car charger for the palm or the GPS? I'm sure i've read of a GPS charger, but i only have a serial connection on my camo. Can it charge through that, and do i need rechargeable batteries in it to do that?

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Moote

+Moote

Posted
Posted
the economics of buying a £300 PDA and finding you don't use it make no sense unless you are sure in advance you know what you want and what you are going to do with it.

Why is it that everyone quotes £300 for a PPC, you can buy one with built in GPS for around £180 and one without built in GPS for as low as £120, both prices include full 3 year warranty. Now a Palm off eBay of any reasonable spec will cost £25 and because you have accepted the terms that it is an auction might not give you a legally binding warranty (Just phone my Mother on this point who deals with legal issues such as these) Buyer Beware is what a solicitor would quote you!

 

If I buy electronic goods, eBay is the last place I prefer the security of a full warranty!

 

Milton (aka Moote)

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markandlynn

markandlynn

Posted
Posted
Now a Palm off eBay of any reasonable spec will cost £25 If I buy electronic goods, eBay is the last place I prefer the security of a full warranty!

 

Does this mean your having a dig at ebay or palms now ?

personally i have never had a problem with ebay. There dispute resolution is very good and the insurance on my credit card would handle any other issues. I have had more issues in high street shops.

 

NB

the total cost of my last three palms is £30 the first one got dropped and broke i still have the other two

 

A good site to compare different types is here

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walkergeoff and wife

+walkergeoff and wife

Posted
Posted

I am always surprised that, when this topic comes up, it always generates as much heat as light. Why should anyone feel threatened by what PDA/PPC someone else uses? Is it because they feel that their judgment is called into question? As geocachers, we are all different, with different experiences, ideas and depth of pocket! :D Surely we can discuss the merits/demerits of various systems in an objective, dispassionate way?

 

In hope......

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Happy Humphrey

+Happy Humphrey

Posted
Posted
(Daytribe) I find that it actually takes longer to prepare the cache information and maps for downloading to the PDA than it does to hit print and wait for the paper to come out.

 

One of the difficulties of recommending an approach for paperless caching is that it depends on how you generally approach geocaching. I would hardly cache at all if it wasn't for having a PDA. Having to print cache descriptions limits you to a very small selection (unless you have time and money for hours of printing), so everything has to be rigidly planned before setting out.

 

I don't like being so restricted, and like to have dozens of cache descriptions available. A Pocket Query, quick download to the PPC and I have all the descriptions I can possibly need. I guess Daytribe plans for a couple of caches only, with no intention of deviating from the plan, and this can work with printed sheets.

 

I've only dropped the PPC twice: once onto tarmac (with a bounce into a puddle) - the aluminium case did its job!

 

As for Palm v. PPC: I've never used a Palm - perhaps they're great - but don't have any trouble with the PPC which runs smoothly all day without recharging, accesses the Internet and downloads emails out in the field, displays full colour OS maps and 4" VGA photos, navigates me around via Tom Tom and Memory Map...etc. (why bother with a Laptop?). I haven't noticed the problems with the operating system observed by LG, so I can't comment on them.

 

HH

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Moote

+Moote

Posted
Posted
I am always surprised that, when this topic comes up, it always generates as much heat as light. Why should anyone feel threatened by what PDA/PPC someone else uses? Is it because they feel that their judgment is called into question? As geocachers, we are all different, with different experiences, ideas and depth of pocket! :D Surely we can discuss the merits/demerits of various systems in an objective, dispassionate way?

 

In hope......

No that is not the point, what I feel is that if someone is thinking of going paperless then they should be given the full facts about the devices, as I have used both and as I work in the IT sector I feel that my experience of various devices is good experience and therefore I pass this knowledge on.

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markandlynn

markandlynn

Posted
Posted
All my caching kit is covered on my household insurance policy with an excess of £15 so my loss would only be as great as yours

If your house insurance covers you half way up a hill when caching on holiday in the lake district i am impressed. :D

I have a palm cause its cheap if i had £120 spare it would go to some more speech therapy for my son.

I am sure the OP has enough opinions now to go off and form one of there own i prefer to link to independent sites to avoid any conflicts of interest.

 

;)

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HazelS

+HazelS

Posted
Posted
The dispute resolution is very good and the insurance on my credit card would handle any other issues.

TO GO OFF TOPIC.....

 

Just be careful with ebay...

 

As a seller and a buyer on ebay I use it a lot, but have been stung...

 

Everyone thinks that their credit card covers them, but it DOESN'T!!

 

We bought a carpet cleaner off ebay, paid by credit card usig Paypal, and we never got the item. The only money we have ever seen back was from pay pal, not the credit card.

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HazelS

+HazelS

Posted
Posted
All my caching kit is covered on my household insurance policy with an excess of £15 so my loss would only be as great as yours

If your house insurance covers you half way up a hill when caching on holiday in the lake district i am impressed. :D

 

Well it does!!

 

If you ensure that you get cover for personal possessions, AND accidental damage, then you are well and truely covered by your household insurance.

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Moote

+Moote

Posted
Posted (edited)
All my caching kit is covered on my household insurance policy with an excess of £15 so my loss would only be as great as yours

If your house insurance covers you half way up a hill when caching on holiday in the lake district i am impressed. :D

I think you would fint that most Household insurance policies cover you for Items lost or damaged outside the home. Mine covers me for up to £2500 and also £5000 for my wallet (don't think of mugging me though as it rearly has £1 in it ;) )

 

Milton (aka Moote)

Edited by Moote
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purple_pineapple

+purple_pineapple

Posted
Posted (edited)

i think my insurance does too, (contents outside home that is, up to a value) although when i broke our new 400 pound digital camera by camping in a muddy week in dartmoor with it, i decided not to put it to the test, and told them i dropped it down the stairs instead!

 

However, I'm very impressed with the 15 quid excess! None of my quotes have even come close to that! I think its 75 at moment...

 

I do agree though that the important point is what you want to do with your PDA. As the OP said they don't use a mobile, I'm giuessing they're not going to start using it to run their lives, and therefore a more simple to use, and cheaper, PDA might be the answer. IMHO, the palm will do the simple things as well as a PPC. It may not have bluetooth, but I have two good computers in my home, and neither of those do either, so bluetooth would be useless to me. However, if you can see yourself going down the in car satnav route, a PPC might be better. I'm not sure how suitable a palm is for that.

 

Dave

 

Edited to clarify

Edited by purple_pineapple
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scaw

+scaw

Posted
Posted

No, I did Moss Force, View a cross Buttermere and S'late in the day...

 

I only live near Keswick so I'll bag the others soon enough!! :D

I live in Cockermouth, not too far away from you :D

Im just outside Workington so near you both :D Ive only been doing this a couple of weeks and bought and etrex off ebay for £70 which is great i can use it no problem :D Ive also got a ipaq and can i heck load waypoints onto it i have tomtom and blue tooth but alas i cant do the waypoints onto the ipaq :D I downloaded swiss army knife but have only just got it to do my waypoints onto my etrex. As they say " a little knowlege in the wrong hands is dangerous" ;)

 

btw this is my first post although i have been reading posts for a while

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dpoet

dpoet

Posted
Posted

Im just outside Workington so near you both :D

 

Welcome to the wacky world of geocaching :D

you will be hooked in no time

If I can be any help, give me a shout

I can't be of any help with your pda tho'

I haven't bought one yet :D

The chatroom is also good just for a chat or help.

I haven't been on for a while, the Java seems to conflict with something on my computer, and i haven't looked at IRC clients yet. ;)

I may bump into you while caching. I carry my eu geocoin with me now, so if you meet me you can log it :D

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scaw

+scaw

Posted
Posted

I may bump into you while caching. I carry my eu geocoin with me now, so if you meet me you can log it ;)

I have just ordered a euro geocoin and i also have compass rose which i havent activated yet as ive only done 3 cache's but i have released 2 travel bugs.

You are so right about being hooked all i need is some better weather to get out there, i have a bad knee so have to be so careful about the terrain i go on :D

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dpoet

dpoet

Posted
Posted

sorry off topic for a minute

Scale Force at Buttermere GCMEMY is nice, lovely waterfall.

it's a bit boggy, but no hill climbing, it is uphill and a 3 mile round trip from the car park. there are some good places for a picnic on the way

If the weather ever improves.

Light at the end of the tunnel GCHG1T is an easy one, on the way around the lake.

Stoneycroft stair GCPM6P is very easy, very near the road.

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milvus-milvus

+milvus-milvus

Posted
Posted

I nearly dropped my iPaq in the river Nene today.. :D

 

Horses for courses, I say. Still getting to grips (poor choice of word, maybe :D ) with the PDA after nearly a year - but just bought a holder and enough cabling to be able to use it in the car safely (trying to use PDA/GPS in the car without a holder can result in erratic driving!). Now looking for a cheap copy of Tomtom to have a play with that too. But I'm a proper map fan really - a holiday is just another excuse to buy another OS map - so I'm not totally won over by all this tecnological stuff - I just like playing with it. ;) And there are days when a printed sheet of paper works a lot better - particularly when you are trying to retrieve a cache that just fell in the river... :D

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