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Rules, Who Needs Them?


Mudfrog
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Before y'all jump on me, i certainly dont like the idea of having too many confining rules.

 

But if you will notice, every game that we play has rules. These games range from children's "Go Fish" all the way up to "Professional Athletic Sports". Shouldnt Geocaching have general rules (not guidelines) of it's own?

 

I was just reading a thread where a person said he/she lost respect for cachers because of logging multiple finds on single caches. Before i could post, the thread was locked down. It doesnt "disgust" me that people log the same cache find mulitiple times, or that they log their own caches as finds, or that they log geocoins that they have never even seen, etc,,, but i dont think these ways of playing are right. Some will even say that a cache owner has the right to say whether its ok to log his cache more than one time. Nah, just because he/she says so, doesnt make it proper.

 

Again, our game is all about fun. We as cachers police it pretty well and we sure dont want to take away from our game by placing a bunch of stupid rules. But there will always be differing opinions and for this reason, maybe there needs to be a rule or two to keep everyone on a level playing field!

 

The one simple rule that i think would be in order is,,,,,

 

1. A person can log only one find per Geocaching.com approved cache!

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All of this seems silly. Find the cache, log it, and move on to the next one. It's not a numbers game, but it's still fun to watch the numbers. I'm new to this, and there might be reasons to double log a cache, but I can't think of any.

 

We are only logging our finds once. We're only logging trackables we have in our hands. And we'll only be watching our own numbers, because who knows if other peoples are accurate.

 

Rules shouldn't need to be more established because people should play with respect.

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One Reason to log multiple smiles on one cache :

 

Detour Sturgis

 

.....Because the Cache owner said so ? ....

 

Star

Then when finding and logging this cache twice, you are playing fair. You wouldn't log it twice just to boost your own numbers unfairly.

 

This is a perfect example of why a clear cut rule should not be necessary. Just play with respect.

 

If it's not all about having fun, then we aren't playing right.

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1. A person can log only one find per Geocaching.com approved cache!

Who enforces this new rule?

  If we really thought we needed such a rule, then it seems to me that it'd be trivial for the Geocaching.com web site to disallow logging any find on a cache from an account that has already previously logged a find on that same cache.

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1. A person can log only one find per Geocaching.com approved cache!

Who enforces this new rule?

If we really thought we needed such a rule, then it seems to me that it'd be trivial for the Geocaching.com web site to disallow logging any find on a cache from an account that has already previously logged a find on that same cache.

OMG!! :o

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1. A person can log only one find per Geocaching.com approved cache!

Who enforces this new rule?

Software :o

That's what I was thinking. When I submitted a new cache last night, I forgot to select the State and the submission didn't go through.

 

A new cacher here posted a "Found It" when he returned to a cache to retrieve a Travel Bug. He didn't realize that added to his Find count, and as soon as he was aware he should have posted a "Note" instead, he changed his "Found It."

 

It would have been nice if the web site did that for you.

 

 

But then there are those exceptions . . . :D

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I don't like rules either. I try my best to use common sense, and adhere to my own rules that's consistent with that common sense. I may share my thoughts on that, but try not to force others to my views.

 

I'm sure few of the multiple finds per cache are due to ignorance. It's less likely for TBs and Geocoins, but accidents do happen. Rather than risk being mislabeled as a crook and/or a dummy, be sure to take the time to do things right, like reading the guidelines, asking cache owners/fellow cachers, and writing things down instead of trusting your memory.

 

I've encountered a handful of caches that allow multiple finds. I am neutral on those, since my common sense says it's an exception to the rule. If copycat caches appear and people complain, then they can be archived on case-by-case basis. I'm sure some of the owners will complain about THAT, but that's their fault for COPYING. :o

 

Still not worth creating rules for it. However, I've heard rumors that common sense is on the endangered species list. :D

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Calling caching a game is kind of tough. There are some basic rules, but they can really only be enforced by the often-under-appreciated volunteers. It's hard to pin down the goal of geocaching, which makes 'rules' or standards hard to quantify. In essence, geocaching can be about numbers, swag, the hunt, the GPS units, etc, but is determinded by each player. Golf is similiar but golf has Par as the standard. Most games have a way to measure growth and advancement. Geocaching really does not; you can say numbers but what do the numbers really mean? Like Jeremy stated, who would or even could enforce rules? I'm not too sure as to why people care about numbers. On other message boards, non-caching related -you see a routine where 'veteran' board members begin to gripe and complain about newbies. People seem to fall into a comparison routine where "I have to be better" etc. Again, I'm not sure why. the nice thing about caching is that it is can be done with one or 50 people at at time.

 

Geocaching, imo, is a game involing personal integrity and etiquette, and one I have really admired. most of the people are savy, intelligent, and want what's good for the game and the environement. But the focus seems to be shifting from that focus to individuals and swag. I will say I am unware of the history of the geocaching, so I might be wrong. however, the focus of geocaching is on the onus of the individual, with really no binding rules. As far as I know, you cannot legistlate intgrity or etiquette.

 

We want people to respect nature, not hack-and-slash, CITO, trade fairly, etc, but those can not really be enforced. Geocaching.com does an outstanding job of trying to provide and educate us on these matters. But it still always comes back to a person, typically by themselves, with a cache, in the dark of night, with nobody watching... :o well, you get the idea.

 

Unfortuantley, from a reality standpoint, we don't have rules.. they are more guidelines... :D

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Alright, usually I'm just a lurker but today I'm inspired to post. So, here's my two cents.... I find the joy of caching is in the journey. I don't look at other cacher's numbers as a measure of their worth nor do I look at my own that way. I also don't feel any disappointment over what's in the cache at the end. I feel blessed to have the health, time, money (well maybe I don't really have this one) and freedom just to be able to enjoy this hobby. I've had some many wonderful experiences along the way that have served as an incredible reward for my efforts. Take for example the freshly fledged Blue Jay that I hung out with on my way back from a cache today, or the doe who let me get withing 6ft of her. So, maybe I don't have high numbers, maybe I feel like visiting a cache a second time for whatever reason, maybe I don't log all my DNF's, maybe (HEAVEN FORBID) I leave a crappy trade item.........why would someone spend their energy feeling frustrated by MY experience? When did geocaching become a competitive sport? I think people should learn to enjoy their own journey more and spend less time worry about others.

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A bit off topic, but since this is a recurring theme...

 

I believe most if not all of the power cachers with super high find counts ARE very good at spotting caches. If they were given the opportunity to get multiple finds on a cache without blatant cheating, I have no issues with that.

 

Notice how none of them ever repond to the continual "it's not about the numbers" cries in the forums?

 

Find count is a good way to bring friendly competition. It's also a good measure of one's dedication, but not necessarily "caching ability" since that can depend on the person's character.

 

If you meet a person who gets irritated "beyond resonable limits" on the find count issue, then you'll have to wonder if he is capable of having fun in anything he does. :o

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... 1. A person can log only one find per Geocaching.com approved cache!

If they would of made the database only accept one find log for each person on each cache we would not even be discussing this rule.

 

Instead owners who move acache and think the original finders should log it again, would make it a new cache. Cache Event organizers would list event caches if they wanted people to log them and so on. Geocaching would of adapated to a different set of circumstances and we would not be having the debate now. I'm not even sure we would be debating being allowed to log more than one find on a cache though I'm sure it would come up.

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I think people should learn that it just doesn't matter, but that will likely never happen either.

Once again I am strangely in agreement with someone.

I am a firm believer in personal best.

Actually I ignore how many finds a person or team logs.

For some reason I do attend to when they started with this crazy geocaching stuff.

Go figure. :o

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Alright, usually I'm just a lurker but today I'm inspired to post. So, here's my two cents.... I find the joy of caching is in the journey. I don't look at other cacher's numbers as a measure of their worth nor do I look at my own that way. I also don't feel any disappointment over what's in the cache at the end. I feel blessed to have the health, time, money (well maybe I don't really have this one) and freedom just to be able to enjoy this hobby. I've had some many wonderful experiences along the way that have served as an incredible reward for my efforts. Take for example the freshly fledged Blue Jay that I hung out with on my way back from a cache today, or the doe who let me get withing 6ft of her. So, maybe I don't have high numbers, maybe I feel like visiting a cache a second time for whatever reason, maybe I don't log all my DNF's, maybe (HEAVEN FORBID) I leave a crappy trade item.........why would someone spend their energy feeling frustrated by MY experience? When did geocaching become a competitive sport? I think people should learn to enjoy their own journey more and spend less time worry about others.

You are a wise person! Too bad most of the whiners will never see the wisdom in your idea! Sawdust92

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Why be so upset about people who log the same cache more than once? After all, they are the ones who waste their time hunting a cache they have already been to. If they have fun doing that, then more power to them. Me, I would rather hunt caches that I have never found because it is a new experience. Maybe, I would gto a cache I had already been to if I was with someone who needed to log it and never been there before.

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1. A person can log only one find per Geocaching.com approved cache!

Who enforces this new rule?

Software :D

Oh. I see. So I remove a feature of the web site to suit your version of what is right and what is not, just so you can feel better.

...or you leave it in and enforce your vision of what it should be.

 

I mean come on. The find count isn't. It is a count of the number of Found It logs, not the number of caches found. Any programming neophyte knows it would be relatively trivial to change the query from the number of Found It logs to the number of caches that have a Found It log. You don't even have to remove the number of Found It logs, just add a "Count of Unique Caches Logged."

 

You could set up the count to be only the number of caches logged. You could have a check box that an owner could check to allow more than one find to count. That way a cache the owner wants to be able to be logged multiple times can do it.

 

There is no need for further rules, just an environment that fosters a sense of propriety and etiquette. Foster a sense of quality experience around the cache and what you get out of it and the rest will take care of itself.*

 

*Before anyone pipes up and says they can enjoy any cache with good friends I say you can do the same thing doing anything, from just sitting around enjoying friends' company to mailbox baseball. No need to lower the quality of caches just as an excuse to do something. Besides, even quality caches will do just as well as a crappy one, right?

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1. A person can log only one find per Geocaching.com approved cache!

Who enforces this new rule?

There are alot of games where a person pretty much keeps his own score. If they cheat then, as i have seen stated so many times on these forums, they are only cheating themselves. Its no skin off anyone's back and and its not even worth trying to enforce. I was really thinking that if a person knew of this "rule", then it would be easier for some of them to make decisions on how they log their cache finds. The "rule" spells it out and therefore the totals in everyone's stats would be more consistent in how they came about!

 

Lets face it, we wouldnt even have stats if they werent important to us. Many post their find count number on their webpages or under their posts on other forums. Some cachers have parties for certain milestones like their 1000th find. Some save certain caches to try for when they hit 100, 200 or 500 finds. Some people compete with others, trying to beat them out with more finds. The majority of us pretty much just want to keep up with our own finds.

 

So now i'll ask this. What good are our stats if they aren't correct?

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If the person physically visits the cache twice, I dont see anything wrong with logging it twice (or more)as a find. Its nice to have frequent visitors at caches, showing that its a good hide, and to have people check on them. I doubt a person would visit a cache multiple times just to boost their numbers. The number of HIDES is what impresses me the most. Where would we be without cachers hiding caches in the first place?

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We'll the only ones that this rule would realy matter too are the ones that care about numbers. Chances are if your trying to pad your numbers with multiple finds on the same cache eventualy you'll be found out.

 

For me I realy could care less about my numbers I probly have atleast 20 finds not loged on GC do iI car no. I had tons of fun findng them. This is not a pro spot this is not even a game of go fih theres no winners and no losers. If you want to turn this into a number game well great but as I see it your just putting stress on something that should just be a nice way to go out and enjoy the out doors.

 

Pyro

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Logging a find twice is not only chinsy, but it's also very condemning. Who in the world would do that for numbers? When, if someone looks at your finds and uncovers you've really only found 5 caches, rather than 456 as your tracker counts, people lose respect for you. This is just another pathetic ploy by the number punchers to find another all-time low. Please, bring some dignity back to this sport.

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Who enforces this new rule?
Software  :D

Oh. I see. So I remove a feature of the web site to suit your version of what is right and what is not, just so you can feel better.

I'm undecided whether or not such a rule is needed or would be a good thing.

 

But I am confused about what "feature" you would be removing. People would still be able to claim one "found it" per cache, and people would still claim illegitimate finds on caches they hadn't really found.

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The report pages that show number of finds could do a distinct query on login so even though I can log multiple finds, any group by or sum would be a distinct count.

 

So even though I can find a cache ten times, I only get credit once in my profile or other sum pages.

 

The log for the cache is correct (I found it many times)

The sum of caches found would be correct (returns are really not finds. unless you have a very short memory...)

 

So the software is the solution and people can add many find it logs.

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Alright, usually I'm just a lurker but today I'm inspired to post. So, here's my two cents.... I find the joy of caching is in the journey. I don't look at other cacher's numbers as a measure of their worth nor do I look at my own that way. I also don't feel any disappointment over what's in the cache at the end. I feel blessed to have the health, time, money (well maybe I don't really have this one) and freedom just to be able to enjoy this hobby. I've had some many wonderful experiences along the way that have served as an incredible reward for my efforts. Take for example the freshly fledged Blue Jay that I hung out with on my way back from a cache today, or the doe who let me get withing 6ft of her. So, maybe I don't have high numbers, maybe I feel like visiting a cache a second time for whatever reason, maybe I don't log all my DNF's, maybe (HEAVEN FORBID) I leave a crappy trade item.........why would someone spend their energy feeling frustrated by MY experience? When did geocaching become a competitive sport? I think people should learn to enjoy their own journey more and spend less time worry about others.

I agree, just have fun. Unless you want to win the 'prize' for the most finds. :blink: Then find any way you can to catch up to those big # cachers.

 

 

 

BTW: I know there's no prize, that's the point.

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1. A person can log only one find per Geocaching.com approved cache!

Who enforces this new rule?

Software :blink:

Oh. I see. So I remove a feature of the web site to suit your version of what is right and what is not, just so you can feel better.

...or you leave it in and enforce your vision of what it should be.

True. So there you go then.

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There are a few grandfathered traveling geocaches that I enjoy finding multiple times. Each time I find it, it is in a new location. After I find it, I move it to a new location for the next finder to repeat that process.

 

I personally enjoy the numbers but I am only competing with myself, not anyone else. If I go back to a previously found cache, I post a note, not another found.

 

But so what if someone else abuses that. Like someone else said, no skin off my back.

 

When I see that someone has logged a cache as a find more than once, I usually email that person and explain that the normally accepted practice is to log as a note the second time. It is usually someone new who is unaware of that issue.

 

I vote for not adding that rule.

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BTW: I know there's no prize, that's the point.

 

This says it all. If someone wants to go to the same cache once a year or month and log it as a find each time, why not. The only place (imo) that the numbers matter is to the individual, unfortunately people try to use their numbers or other's lack of numbers on these forums to give or take credence from someone else’s point of view and that is a shame.

 

When prizes or titles are given out in some official manner, then definitive rules for claiming a smiley face will need to be hashed out and set in place. I am new here, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

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I don't understand all the angst over people logging the same cache multiple times. It seems very few people do this and they usually have a good reason - a moving cache, a cache that has multiple ways to get a find, etc. There is a much bigger problem that is corrupting the meaning of the find count. There are many more people out there who do not log all the caches that they do find. Some are protesting the emphasis on numbers. Others simply don't like logging in and having to write something - even just TFTC. If people aren't going to log their finds how can I ever tell how my find count matches up to others. We need a new rule. If you find a cache you must log it online. Now I just need to figure out a way to enforce this rule in software :blink:

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Again, our game is all about fun.

I prefer to think of it as an ACTIVITY. The word game has caused much grief for us here in South Carolina.

 

Games have points and so a score and a winner and a loser.

 

The only losers in geocaching are the ones who overanalyze and don't do what's natural....have fun!

 

As a matter of fact that should be the only rule for caching.

 

RULES

 

1. Have fun!

 

X

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Feature creep and bloated code.

 

I'm sure people in the software industry know about these words. I'm old school, so I prefer self-regulation over rules implementation, even by software which on the surface seems to be low-impact. (I'm sure there'd be a performance hit somewhere, even if it's tiny)

 

I much rather see value-added features (enhancements to PQ, new LC and Virtuals) than "features" enforcing peoples' behavior. We have parents, government, church, and other institutions to take care of that, even in vain. :blink:

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That is a good point. I wonder why Groundspeak hasn't jumped on this idea that the server will only allow people who have already found the cache to post notes. I'm sure they're on it.

Or not. Possibly because Jeremy pretty much stated, in this same thread, that he didn't care.

 

For once, I agree with him. B)

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Me, too.  This is a non-issue.

As are 90% of the other bitches and complaints on the main forum...

Click that red x in the upper right corner of your browser window when the forums are getting you down. I call it the "x-pill" which you can take when the forums are bringing you down.

 

Grab that GPS and find yerself some caches. The fresh air can solve many problems and reveal others as frivolous.

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To quote from the GC.com FAQ page:

What are the rules in Geocaching?

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

Sounds pretty simple to me. I don't think we need any more rules. But then, I'm more of a guideline guy.

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1. A person can log only one find per Geocaching.com approved cache!

Who enforces this new rule?

I WILL, I WILL, I WILL.

 

I have a whistle and black and white stripped shirt that I can wear with my Geocaching hat. I can make a GC Referee Badge out of a used soup can and patrol the woods to make sure that no one is double logging a cache. When I nab a violating cacher then I will slap a metal shealth around their GPSr that will cease the reception of all signals for a period to be determined by the severity of the double log. The shealth will only be removed after the guilty cacher completes at least three CITO events and establishes good relations for GCing in an unfriendly GCing area.

 

Then, and only then, will the cacher be allowed back into the GC fold but they must have the new George Castanza DOUBLE DIPPER icon placed over their account history for a period not less than one (1) year.

 

B)

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Again, our game is all about fun.

I prefer to think of it as an ACTIVITY. The word game has caused much grief for us here in South Carolina.

 

Games have points and so a score and a winner and a loser.

 

The only losers in geocaching are the ones who overanalyze and don't do what's natural....have fun!

 

As a matter of fact that should be the only rule for caching.

 

RULES

 

1. Have fun!

 

X

Geocaching itself is indeed an activity. Its fun for the whole family and gets us out of the house to exercise, explore, and discover new places. I certainly agree with you there!

 

However, there are many who take it farther and have fun in other ways. Friendly competitions with each other, competing with themselves, beating others to FTFs at 3 in the morning, striving to get every icon they can on their stats page, etc,,. To me, this is where geocaching could be considered a game. There are no real winners or losers but our scores are indeed kept in the form of our stats.

 

Im sure there are some out there who could care less and never even look at their stats, but im guessing that the majority of us do. Why then wouldnt we want our stats to be as accurate as possible?

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