Approved Commercial Caches - What?

1.2k · June 30, 2005

The polite version of what I want to say:

Someone please explain to me how these are NOT commercial caches. Thank you.

(Impolite version censored... not going to give in to the intense urge to whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine like a 3 year old... "why do the SoCal folks get their commercial caches approved but when I do the same thing, I caaaaaan't! Whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine...!" etc. because I don't need any offerings of cheese, unless it's some really good Havarti!)

Edited June 30, 2005 by Sparrowhawk

38.2k · June 30, 2005

The first one may be a bit over the top, but the second doesn't seem any different from the SBUX caches, or the Crackerbarrel series.

1.1k · June 30, 2005

hummmmm But it happens.

do you feel compeled to buy coffee.

cheers

Edited June 30, 2005 by AtoZ

4.8k · June 30, 2005

There is a lot of room for debate over what is and is not commercial. Plus things happen. I suppose people could complain which could result in getting the

cache(s) in question archived. Or I suppose people could shrug it off as a debatable topic or innocent mistake and set the cache(s) on their ignore list if the nature of them is bothersome. I prefer the later. Less overall anguish that way.

Edited June 30, 2005 by carleenp

2.5k · June 30, 2005

Actually, judging by the logs for the first one, it's out in the parking lot, too. So it's not really that they're over the top.. I think they're fine. There are caches at restaurants all over - cracker barrell, sonic, starbucks, etc...

1.6k · June 30, 2005

The second one seems fine, but the second one is a bit close to the line. As long as you don't have to go inside or buy coffee, I think it's fine, but I could be horribly wrong.

1k · June 30, 2005

I think including the phrase "Make it a daily habit" as a clue might be a bit much...unless the cache is right under a sign that says "Make it a daily habit".

June 30, 2005

The first clearly has no trade items. It is not like it is a container full of coupons for the diner or menus. I don't see the problem with it. It is no worse than the MANY Wally World parking lot caches.

8k · June 30, 2005

I've done both of these caches and neither is a problem. I'm posting spoilers here (neither were that exciting and I know the hiders so I don't feel bad about doing it). The first is hidden under a newspaper rack outside of the cafe. No need to go inside. The second is part of a series that this cacher has hidden. None require you to go inside the restaurant. Interesting though in my log I said I bought a drink while waiting for a muggle to leave the area of the cache.

I have really enjoyed some caches where a the hider has introduced me to a little sandwich shop or restaurant that I wouldn't have known about otherwise. I think the commercial rule is to prevent cache where one would have to pay to find the cache.

1.8k · June 30, 2005

Fine, I'll squeal.

SoCalAdmin takes bribes. Yes, he can be bought. He will approve anything if the price is right.

There. The secret's out. Are you happy?

1.8k · June 30, 2005

ohmigod.....

it's deeper than that isn't it and you just won't admit it, I can tell...this is some gawdawful JUNK FOOD/FAST FOOD/FRANCHISE conspiracy, isn't it...?

(whimper, whimper, I always KNEW they had plans...)

June 30, 2005

Markwell

Some of my points from that thread are being reiterrated here. IMO, any cache located on commercial property is commercial.

You better believe that if I owned a convience store there would be a micro in the parking lot.

Salvelinus

24.7k · June 30, 2005

If the business owner placed it to increase business, it's commercial.

If a geocacher placed it and asked permission for whatever their own reason is, it's not commercial.

If they charge admission and it's for profit it's commercial. If you had to buy something to be able to log the cache, it's commercial.

As it is, it's no more commercial than a cache in a light post in a strip mall parking lot.

June 30, 2005

Very interesting, I've been thinking about this alot lately. I have dreams of opening a little coffee shop. In those dreams lately pops up the idea that I could 'host' a cache there. The cache would have various swag plus coupons for free coffee or pastrie, not discounted but free, so no purchase need be made....just a nice coffee/snack break in a day of caching. No commercial gain intended, yet I can see that it may violate some rules or does it?????

20.7k · June 30, 2005

I don't have a problem with either of these caches. Also, it should be noted that commercial caches are not verboten. They simply require approval. The cache pages were approved, so its a moot issue.

June 30, 2005

Can someone please open a Krispy Kreme francise here in Germany and hide a cache there!

I'd visit it everyday.

DC

June 30, 2005

Not a very good way to develop repeat customers. now if they let you log the cache every time you visited ............

June 30, 2005

Same idea

This is another one that we did recently that fits into this questionable theme. It's a car museum/deli/ice cream parlor (quite the combo). However, we're not really ones to complain about geocaches leading to ice cream parlors in quaint little towns on the side of scenic old highways...uh...er...well...at least not when the chocolate chip mint was so good.

June 30, 2005

I don't see anything wrong with any of these! Like someone mentioned, you don't HAVE to buy anything to log the caches. If I were to see a listing that mentioned something like "Home of the Best Burger in the West" or something along those lines- who knows? I could choose to visit and have a burger, log the cache without buying anything- or if I was really annoyed at the thought of being brought to a "business" by a cache I guess I could choose to just skip it alltogether?

June 30, 2005

I don't see anything wrong with any of these! Like someone mentioned, you don't HAVE to buy anything to log the caches. If I were to see a listing that mentioned something like "Home of the Best Burger in the West" or something along those lines- who knows? I could choose to visit and have a burger, log the cache without buying anything- or if I was really annoyed at the thought of being brought to a "business" by a cache I guess I could choose to just skip it alltogether?

The point is not what you do there when the cache brings you to a commercial business, its the fact that it brought you there in the first place.

We had a local cache pulled for commercial violations. It was at a upscale bar/restaurant, and you had to only ask for the cache it to get it. No requirement to buy anything. All you had to do was visit the business and ask for the cache. I assume this one would be ok with you too?

Here is the cache I mention

Salvelinus

June 30, 2005

If the business owner placed it to increase business, it's commercial.

If a geocacher placed it and asked permission for whatever their own reason is, it's not commercial.

If they charge admission and it's for profit it's commercial. If you had to buy something to be able to log the cache, it's commercial.

As it is, it's no more commercial than a cache in a light post in a strip mall parking lot.

So...a cache at a geocachers favorite bar, hidden with permission of the bar owner is ok as long as no purchase or entry fee is required?

This one for example

Salvelinus

June 30, 2005

Imaskeerd to bring this up but...... if there is a cache in the woods, noone around for miles and I put a travel bug in it..... well isn't someone making a profit off of that bug? Isn't that commercial? So what that you have to walk into an historical building to log a cache, so what if they happen to sell stuff there.

Ok I'm gonna duck and hide now...

6.4k · June 30, 2005

Imaskeerd to bring this up but...... if there is a cache in the woods, noone around for miles and I put a travel bug in it..... well isn't someone making a profit off of that bug? Isn't that commercial? So what that you have to walk into an historical building to log a cache, so what if they happen to sell stuff there.

Ok I'm gonna duck and hide now...

How so?

Any profit was made off the TB owner when the tag was purchased. Nobody makes any money when the TB is placed in a cache.

24.7k · June 30, 2005

I've also seen caches turned down as too commercial becase they were inside the premisis of the business. The biz happend to have several aviation items on display that were at least more interesting than the parking lot which would have been approved.

June 30, 2005

The profit was made at time of purchase yes. The caches facilitate the demand part of the supply and demand scenario. I guess my point is that it seems rather hypocritical.

6.4k · June 30, 2005

The profit was made at time of purchase yes. The caches facilitate the demand part of the supply and demand scenario. I guess my point is that it seems rather hypocritical.

Not really.

There is a HUGE difference between a company using a website it owns to make a profit and someone else using (for free) a company's website to generate profit for another company.

To put it bluntly:

It's perfectly fine for you to paint a sign on your car advertising your company.

It's not OK for me to paint a sign on your car (without your permission) advertising my company.

June 30, 2005

So this is all just one huge commercial endeavor?

9.1k · June 30, 2005

Careful there, Mopar. When you start talking about getting into the business of putting advertising signs on vehicles, you be messin' with the livelihood of some very powerful folk.

3k · June 30, 2005

So this is all just one huge commercial endeavor?

Bigger than huge. It's ginormous.

9.1k · June 30, 2005

It's a vast plot for world domination through subversive religion masquerading as science.

If you don't believe that, translate the bar code on a travel bug. Those of us who know, understand.

6.4k · June 30, 2005

So this is all just one huge commercial endeavor?

Duh! Of course it is!

You think a website this big runs on Jeremy's good looks alone?

5.3k · June 30, 2005

So this is all just one huge commercial endeavor?

Duh! Of course it is!

You think a website this big runs on Jeremy's good looks alone?

Hey Lep...can you still see Mopar's feet?

June 30, 2005

That is my point. The money generated does not 'just' pay the bills. PROFIT.

Not really.
There is a HUGE difference between a company using a website it owns to make a profit and someone else using (for free) a company's website to generate profit for another company.

So a 'commercial cache' might make 'someoneELSE' money.... I see now. I thought it was about protecting the cachers from someone placing a lame cache in order to try and get them to buy something.

9.4k · June 30, 2005

So this is all just one huge commercial endeavor?

Bigger than huge. It's ginormous.

Well, it started as a hobby, but do you realize how much moorage fees are for the Tatoosh? I have to get my money from somewhere, you know.

June 30, 2005

What do you think of caches hidden inside of the newspaper stands. I am specifically referring to one that you would have to purchase a paper in order to open it and retrieve the cache.

I also know of a cache that was placed inside of a sub that you had to pay to get into.

9.4k · June 30, 2005

I put a travel bug in it..... well isn't someone making a profit off of that bug?

Someone made a profit from the vehicle that took you there, the gas you used to drive there, the clothes on your back, the water in your pack, and the swag in the cache. What's your point exactly?

9.4k · June 30, 2005

What do you think of caches hidden inside of the newspaper stands. I am specifically referring to one that you would have to purchase a paper in order to open it and retrieve the cache.

I don't like them. However I don't care much for urban geocaches anyway. Normally a cache like this would not be allowed, but permission can be given. The "no commercial cache" rule is not black or white. Assume it will not be allowed unless you were given permission to do so.

And no, we generally do not charge for commercial cache placements.

I also know of a cache that was placed inside of a sub that you had to pay to get into.

If it was placed with permission by the sub owner I would probably allow this one.

The spirit of the guideline is to keep from overcommercializing the activity. I don't want to see nascar caches with sponsors on them, k? But the occasional (gasp) commercial cache isn't going to be a big deal as long as it isn't too over the top. We're trying to reduce the overt or subversive commercialization of geocaching. No one can be dense enough to believe it would be possible to eradicate commercialism from it.

9.1k · June 30, 2005

What do you think of caches hidden inside of the newspaper stands. I am specifically referring to one that you would have to purchase a paper in order to open it and retrieve the cache.

I also know of a cache that was placed inside of a sub that you had to pay to get into.

These are commercial and are no longer listed (at least not with knowledge of the hiding style). See the royal decree here.

6.4k · June 30, 2005

What do you think of caches hidden inside of the newspaper stands. I am specifically referring to one that you would have to purchase a paper in order to open it and retrieve the cache.

Personally, I hate them. And if specifically you are talking about ones hidden in a group of newspaper boxes with clues that force you to potentially buy 3 different papers (almost $5 if it's Sunday) to find it, I liked those even less.

June 30, 2005

I put a travel bug in it..... well isn't someone making a profit off of that bug?

Someone made a profit from the vehicle that took you there, the gas you used to drive there, the clothes on your back, the water in your pack, and the swag in the cache. What's your point exactly?

June 30, 2005

What do you think of caches hidden inside of the newspaper stands. I am specifically referring to one that you would have to purchase a paper in order to open it and retrieve the cache.

Personally, I hate them. And if specifically you are talking about ones hidden in a group of newspaper boxes with clues that force you to potentially buy 3 different papers (almost $5 if it's Sunday) to find it, I liked those even less.

I know of the cache you speak of.

Take a guess which one held the container?

Yup! The third one I tried! - However, it only cost me $1.50 as it was during the week-

Edited June 30, 2005 by CT Trampers

June 30, 2005

My point was clear in response to the previous posts. Geocache clothing is sold, premium membership sold, tie ins with Jeep etc. Much money is being made off of geocaching, money makes the world go round and I have no problems with someone with ingenuity, incentive, business acumen etc etc etc doing well. The site is run well and it looks to take allot of time and effort. I would not have paid the membership had I thought differently. We were talking about caches placed in a commercial establishment and the 'legality' of them; I said that it seemed hypocritical to ban them. It seems this subject is more 'touchy' than I had imagined.

June 30, 2005

I only spent a buck!

The third one I opened with a crowbar!

June 30, 2005

1. Where I come from, if you search a newspaper rack and can't find the cache somewhere you don't have to pay to access, it's a DNF. Anybody who stuck a keyhider in a pay bay would have their rear blistered by the locals.

2. self-quoted from our regional discussion group...

I simply cannot understand why people hide caches in parking lots of strip mall or big-box stores. With very few exceptions they are not the sorts of places people want to visit unless they have to. I have found some that were redeemed by their exceptional hide or cammo techniques, but generally I find them worthless, my yardstick being that a cache should take you somewhere worthwhile.

Yes, I understand that some people may enjoy them, but that doesn't mean that I can't feel that those people are missing the best parts of GeoCaching.

Edited June 30, 2005 by WalruZ

3k · June 30, 2005

It seems this subject is more 'touchy' than I had imagined.

It was only a matter of time before someone found a subject that people would be touchy about. It had to happen eventually.

20.7k · June 30, 2005

...We had a local cache pulled for commercial violations. It was at a upscale bar/restaurant, and you had to only ask for the cache it to get it. No requirement to buy anything. All you had to do was visit the business and ask for the cache. I assume this one would be ok with you too? ...

The difference in your example and the previously mentioned caches is that the others did not require a cacher to enter the business or interact with the staff of same.

June 30, 2005

Oh no, seems there are lots of 'touchy' topics/subjects... I said more touchy....

June 30, 2005

You pay a fee to get inside a (Texas) state park to cache don't you? What's the difference in the subject being talked about now? Entry fees, newspapers, etc, it's all the same ~ Indirect costs.

All caches types have had questions and even denials by the Approvers. Not just said Commercial caches. I don't believe it's a double standard for just SoCal approvers/cachers. Stuff happens.

It's all in the eye of the beerholder.

9.4k · June 30, 2005

We were talking about caches placed in a commercial establishment and the 'legality' of them; I said that it seemed hypocritical to ban them.

You may think that but you haven't been able to support it with your points (so far).

It seems this subject is more 'touchy' than I had imagined.

I doubt it from your "Imaskeerd to bring this up but....." prior post. However you're confusing 'touchy' with 'interesting argument. Here's where you're wrong' posts. Generally I don't have any real emotion on commercial caches. I'm just trying to make sure that geocaching.com doesn't start looking like NASCAR. This isn't exactly a clenched fist type debate, is it? I certainly don't feel that way.

6.4k · June 30, 2005

My point was clear in response to the previous posts. Geocache clothing is sold, premium membership sold, tie ins with Jeep etc. Much money is being made off of geocaching, money makes the world go round and I have no problems with someone with ingenuity, incentive, business acumen etc etc etc doing well. The site is run well and it looks to take allot of time and effort. I would not have paid the membership had I thought differently. We were talking about caches placed in a commercial establishment and the 'legality' of them; I said that it seemed hypocritical to ban them. It seems this subject is more 'touchy' than I had imagined.

The only touch part is thinking it's hypocritical to use your property to advertise while not allowing others to use it for free.

Would you expect Walmart to allow Target to post ads in their windows? Are they being hypocrites since they post their own ads in their windows?

Does Home Depot let Lowe's put up billboards in their parking lot?

Does your local TV/radio station/newspaper offer free advertising for commercial endeavors? Are they hypocrites for advertising their own services and products?

There is nothing hypocritical about not letting someone use your own private property without your permission.

Approved Commercial Caches - What?

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