Salvelinus

...and please don't feed me DCNR's ranting about keeping them available to the public. They are only just looking at the control aspect. When DCNR closes an entire State Forest to public use for an entire weekend, just for the exclusive use of a private road rally which pays them big $$$$ to hold their event...they are talking out of both sides of their mouth. Salvelinus

I agree with your thoughts. Seems like a no brainer to just give land managers premium accounts. Why affect 100's of people when a solution can be found by only affecting a few? I just recently had two caches changed and now I expect to eventually just pull them. I had very good reason to make them for premium only. I expect the old problems I had with them to return, so if they do...I'll just pull them. Salvelinus

Just got a note that The Underground Railroad has been archived. D'oh! This one will likely be requested to return as active. I have to stop the email somehow ...the support from fellow cachers for this cache has been overwhelming. I have a busy couple of weeks with travel for work, then I'll focus on this one again. Salvelinus

First off, I applaud your effort and enthusiasm. One thing you must understand is that PA State Gamelands are not State Parks or State Forest. In fact, organized events and group activities on gamelands are specifically not allowed within their regulations. Gamelands are managed to propagate game...and facilitated toward those that pursue game. The PA Game Commission does understand that other outdoor activities will occur on gamelands and they are willing to let those activites occur as long as they do not interfear with the propagation of game or the persons who may pursue game. There is no reason for us to present a positive image to them because they already allow our activity to occur on their lands...minus a few isolated and unrelated incidences which may or may not involve Game Commission personel. As you know, there is a local faction in NEPA that doesn't want caching on gamelands...the rest of us have had no problems. As an employee of a sister agency (PAFBC) I can assure you that if you force a small, user-funded (not tax-funded) agency to deal with an issue that concerns users that are not directly funding the lands they manage...you will not like the outcome. Regards. Salvelinus

Gee...the main reason I cache is to get away from places where you can do these sort of things.

This cave cache sparked quite a local controversy. I do remember some old forum threads about the topic. I suspect even if your cave isn't popular or registered somewhere, the caving purist will eventually be against your cache. Frankly, IMO some of their concerns are very legit...some are not. I remember some of those people as being quite bizarre. I thought GC.com was backing away from approving cave caches due to several previous bad situations with the caving community? Maybe not. In any event, I wish you luck. I would be into a cache like that. Salvelinus

I guess the manager at this one didn't get the word from the corp. office that it was ok. It amazes me these are still allowed. Even the approver mentioned it as being a "business location" in their response to the placer. Isn't that the same as commercial?

Yeah...but its nice to know there are a few others around who think like you do.

My favorite is a nano-micro hidden on a steel road bridge right next to the state forest sign. Another is a ammo can hidden behind a boulder 5 feet from a paved road that runs through State Game Lands. And you are correct....nobody around here, as far as I know, has ever been turned down for a DCNR permit except in the few off limits areas. When I do find a new DCNR permitted cache, I make it a point to thank the owner for making the effort to get the permit. Hopefully, they will place some more.

I hear ya OP! Back when I began, almost every cache listed had at least 3, sometimes 4 of the attributes that you say makes up your favorite type of cache. Ahhhhhh the good old days! These days, at least in my local area, that type of cache a growing rarity. It's kind of amazing when you realize that I am surrounded by more public land then anywhere else in PA, but all the new caches are showing up in the very limited "pink" areas on the map. Then again...it's not at all surprising when you realize you need a permit to place a cache on most of that public land outside the pink areas. I'm convinced that geocache permit systems are slowly choking the game out of these areas. I also find it ironic (and a bit scary) that these are absolutly the very best places to geocache and so few new caches are showing up there! Why bother going through the hassle of a permit when you can slap a old lipstick tube with a rolled up piece of scrap paper anywhere thats quasi-public property? What seems to be happening is that the sport is being steered more and more to areas that are less than ideal areas to be hiding caches. And when did "stealth" ever become such a popular part of geocaching? Luckily there are still cachers around like George1, PABowHunter, HolyCowboys, RGBisME and a few others who will go through the permit hassle to place a good cache. I just wish there were more cachers like them around and I had more free time to make the longer jaunts to those caches. Until then...I'll patiently wait for the revolution!

I like that! Kinda like the early days

Dang! Now I'll have to travel all the way across the country to find a cache just to find out the end of the story. Hmmm ... and the downside of that is???? It would be worth it to find some of his other caches as well. He is a fantastic hider! This one is not even his best hide.

Well...we better keep it open awhile longer because I think This Cache Name would be in the running!

I understand you can only go by the guidelines you have, so I guess my question would of been better directed to whomever has some power over reviewing and changing the guidelines that you work with. It just seems to me that there have been enough situations lately where "adaquate" permission has been questioned. Maybe someone needs to take a closer look at it and what exactly it means. I understand it is not your job to do as such, nor should it be. Based on the example I gave, it seems that the 131 active "Off Your Rocker" caches have a question to whether or not they now have "adaquate" permission. I guess some would disagree with that, but as this game gets more and more "urbanized" there is potential for major problems if this is not addressed. Salvelinus

I admire how well you handle the enormous task your constantly up against, and would never consider volunteering to do it myself. But, I was just curious if This particular cache has made TPTB in GC.com rethink this type of placement. Seems, as an approver, your now up against another "grey" area. What do you do when the next one is submitted? Salvelinus

There may be no obligation to shop there, but I'll bet anything if they were not attracting business from allowing them there then they wouldn't do it. Do ya really think they are doing that to be nice? I'll guarantee you that if I owned a business there would be a geocache in the parking lot. If for nothing else, it would be there to (un-intentionally ) attract business that I normally may not get. You get them in your parking lot for whatever reason, your half-way to a sale. Back to the OT. I know of a cacher who does not like this type of hide. So, he went to an establishment (restaurant) where one of these was hidden and asked permission to be there to look for it. The manager was less than happy when he heard about it and asked it to be removed. Yeah, the cacher was making a point and hasn't made too many new "friends" by doing what he did. But, it does bring up the question about this type of hide and the permission required. I think GC.com needs to take a harder look at these kind of hides. I still think they are first a commercial cache and should be dealt with as such.

Tis a fact! Especially Porcupines, Wood Mice and Chipmunks

I would think an airport is nothing like a county park. Your only supposed to be there for airport business. Someone carrying a GPS and looking around for something anywhere at an airport will eventually draw attention. Also, the guidelines probably would prohibit it getting approved. Besides getting an easy smiley that means nothing, why would anyone want to go to an airport parking lot to cache? Think location...

Dosn't everyone carry a pocket knife wherever they go?

I do. Send me an email and I will gladly share it with you. But lets keep it out of this thread please. Getting back to the OP's question. Nothing is mandatory based on the way the site is set up. It's truly up to the cache owner whether they will allow a find. I've seen it go both ways. Ethically, signing the cache log to claim a find is the way this game is played. If we stray to far from that, I fear the game is in trouble.

True, but they can ban activities (and do) on their property that they feel may be opposite to its intended use. Malls and plazas ban skateboarders all the time. And I dare you to start up a game of volleyball in a Wal-Mart parking lot and see how long it lasts. Personally, I still don't understand why a cache placed on commercial property is not considered commercial.

I believe my first post actually prompted Jeremy to add the feature on the profile page that updates the date when someone last visited the web site. How's that for initial impact! Do I win? Then again...maybe I'm all wet. edit: spacing

I'm thinking the term "muggle" must totally drive you nuts.

Ok, maybe its not a multi. But why not just create a seperate listing? You ask: "What's the harm?" I say: "What's the point" By allowing people to log "found it" logs for caches where there is no cache listing on the site, has the potential to fundamentally change the game by totally circumventing the approval process. In the example I gave above, the cache hider could of placed a container at the bonus coords and allowed an extra find. However, the area is off limits to physical caches and the approver may or may not even realize it. Sorta like the same problems a moving cache pose. All that said. I'm sure your cache (or caches) are just fine and fun to do. But that type of cache hiding behavoir has the potential to open up a big can of worms. Then again... I'm somewhat cynical Salvelinus

Being new to this sport, and trying to learn the different nuances. It appears to me that this cache is just a multi. As well, the two caches are only about 31m apart and do not qualify under the placing guidelines of 161m separation. How does it qualify for two smilies? Your right...it is nothing but a multi, but people will do about anything anymore to collect smilies. Then argue that it's just their style of playing. Whatever. I guess their is some thrill in playing this way, but I have yet to figure it out. Here is a link to a cache we did this fall which could of been done that way, but thankfully wasn't. The actual cache was placed just outside of a Natural Area which are off limits to caching. However, in the cache were coordinates to one of the last remaining Virgin Hemlock stands in Pennsylvania located within the Natural Area. It was a fantastic site if you made the short trek. Now that's what I call a bonus, and I sure didn't need an extra smiley face to make it complete. Salvelinus