Geomuggles... Are They Dangerous?

February 17, 2005

I see now and then a warning that "there may be geomuggles lurking nearby." So? Is this a threat to us cachers? Is there some rule that we should not let muggles see what we are doing? Exercise normal prudence surely, but is there any reason to hide from muggles? I'm sort of a newby with only 27 finds, but I'm curious as to the proscriptions anent geomuggles. :rolleyes:

February 17, 2005

Often while hiking on trails in my area I don't mind if others see my gps. It's interesting the things that some people think it is. One terrified mother grabbed her child up in her arms telling the kid "Watch out for that man's stun gun." I explained it was harmless and was sort of like a mapping device I was using. I have also ran across other cachers or people who have heard of geocaching. When I am near the cache site I will do my best to avoid muggles. Maybe I go about it the wrong way where I'm open at the start of the hunt? But that's how I do things.

24.7k · February 17, 2005

They aren't muggles until you are close to the cache. Then avoid them like the plague. Most are harmless. But enough eat caches to where it's best to just play it safe.

22k · February 17, 2005

If I haven't made conversation with an 'unknown' person, I wouldn't just pull a cache out of hiding.

If I have spoken to them, that would give me a better idea of whether or not I should explain, recuit or avoid.

February 17, 2005

Be polite, yet be aware..

Remember, *YOU* used to be a muggle too!

Soo,, what would *YOU* have thought before you, "saw the light" & shed your muggle-ness, and spotted some person spinning around aimlessly in the woods holding their umm cellphone :rolleyes:

20.7k · February 17, 2005

I am not a fan of giving full-disclosure to a muggle. I am not confident of my ability to judge whether any muggle is going to ransack a cache after I leave. Therefore, I either give them a very vague explanation of the game or I lie.

5.8k · February 17, 2005

How to behave when faced with a Geomuggle,

1. Stand as tall as you can

2. Try to appear as large as possible

3. Make lots of noise to scare them away

4. DO NOT turn your back or take your eyes away

5. DO NOT run, they will view you as prey

6. If they approach you, swing sticks and throw rocks

Any other suggestions?

February 17, 2005

Ah hah! This must be the answer..."whether any muggle is going to ransack a cache after I leave." Cache safety! I had a nice conversation with a guy last week, he watched me find a cache, but he already knew where it was from having seen a cacher find it a few days before I did. Some folks might, I guess, behave differently and either filch the cache, or move it, or destroy it. I just hate being paranoid. :rolleyes:

2.4k · February 17, 2005

Geomuggles are no more or less dangerous than the general public, because they are the general public. You got it, it's all about not having the cache 'muggled' or ransacked by someone who shouldn't otherwise find it at all. It still happens, though, and anyone who hides a box of stuff in the woods or in a public park shouldn't be all that surprised if it comes up missing. After all, you wouldn't leave your car unlocked there, would you? Or your GPS there by itself?

February 17, 2005

Don't let your baby's grow up to be Muggles!

Muggles will have different rules than the ones you are using.

A muggle might take that cache home, then realize what they did, and toss it in the trash.

Or in some states, put it on the mantel as a trophy.

Oh Yea, Game Over!

Edited February 17, 2005 by Honest John & Suzies Jule

6.7k · February 17, 2005

Honest John, you tellin' me I shouldna mounted that cache on my living room wall?

On a serious note, muggles are a problem. One of my caches is an ammo box along a trail behind a ball-park, intentionally an easy family-friendly kid's cache - it's been taken twice. I lost a favorite TB when a local TB hotel was taken. I suspect that anyone in the game has been affected in some way by muggles.

That said, muggles are in fact the general non-caching public. When you cast a net that wide you are bound to scoop up a few bad actors. That does not mean that muggles are bad...the vast majority are good people simply unaware of our game.

The issue is, how do you know? Often, you can't, and therefore muggle-awareness and avoidance must be part of our game. I don't like the guilty-until-proven-innocent approach to muggles, but unless I can talk to them, get a feel for them and the situation, I avoid them and won't approach a cache while being watched.

My experience, however, perhaps because so many in the South are naturally friendly or because as an old one-legged fat man on crutches I don't present much of a threat, almost anyone I meet, I talk to!

I have met hikers and hunters in the woods, talked with them, explained the game and on numerous occasions taken them with me to the cache and showed them what I was hunting. Because I night-cache, often in groups, I get stopped by the police quite frequently. Sometimes I simply explain our game, sometimes I show them the cache. I suspect I have introduced 20 muggles to the game by explaining it and having them go to the cache with me.

On the other hand, I have had direct contact with at least 50 that I didn't feel comfortable with, and avoided or outright lied about what I was doing.

Since I generally set a watch on caches I find, for a while anyway (I am curious about other's experiences) I am confidant that one of the muggles or new geocachers I have taken out has never returned to muggle a cache.

It's an intuitive balancing act, like so much of life. You as a cacher have a responsibility to protect the cache, but as a geocaching community-member (I believe) have a responsibility to promote and grow the game.

I suggest using your best judgement - if the person(s) appear to be approachable and friendly, explain and divulge as much as you are comfortable with. If you can't converse or don't feel good about them, avoid them at all costs, even if it means going to another cache and coming back for this one later!

Ed

Edited February 17, 2005 by TheAlabamaRambler

February 18, 2005

My expirence (hope this is spelled correct) if you tell them what you are doing they no longer are muggles, but sincerely interested. I have on several ?occacions? met people being very interested in my CS60 and wondering what am I going to find today. So dangerous, definitly not. Most of the muggles are very pleasant!!! Maybe I have recruted a few?

20.7k · February 18, 2005

Remember that jerk you knew in grade school. You know the one, he was evil incarnate, but had that special suck-up quality that caused your teachers to remain oblivious to the fact that he was the devil. How do you know that the muggle that you meet in the park is not him, ten years older?

22k · February 18, 2005

Remember that jerk you knew in grade school. You know the one, he was evil incarnate, but had that special suck-up quality that caused your teachers to remain oblivious to the fact that he was the devil. How do you know that the muggle that you meet in the park is not him, ten years older?

Scott Farkus

edit: dadgum typos

edit II: Autoediting: wow, you can't say 'dadgum' anymore! Cool!

Edited February 18, 2005 by BlueDeuce

6.7k · February 18, 2005

Remember that jerk you knew in grade school. You know the one, he was evil incarnate, but had that special suck-up quality that caused your teachers to remain oblivious to the fact that he was the devil. How do you know that the muggle that you meet in the park is not him, ten years older?

So to avoid this slight possibility do you suggest that we live in fear and secrecy, don't trust anyone? That we don't trust our own judgement because sooner or later we may be mistaken?

I take the opposite approach - for 51 years I have assumed that the vast majority of people are good and trustworthy. I have never been proven wrong...the few bad folks I have run across have been far outweighed by the good.

Ed

February 18, 2005

...the few bad folks I have run across have been far outweighed by the good.

Ed

Wot he said

5.8k · February 18, 2005

Secrecy if half the fun!

"I know something you don't know"

20.7k · February 18, 2005

So to avoid this slight possibility do you suggest that we live in fear and secrecy, don't trust anyone? ...

What I suggest is that since I don't own the cache that I am searching for, I don't run the risk of being wrong. Remember, if I am wrong, I am not the one to suffer. It is the owner of the cache and subsequent searchers that lose out if I show the wrong person the cache.

Therefore, I don't go around introducing muggles to the game. I happily take my friends and family around, but not strangers.

6.7k · February 18, 2005

Well, SBell111, you've been in the game quite a while, and it's hard to find really good advice in some of these forums, so I will take what you say to heart and be even more careful. I will still reveal my caches to anyone I deem worthy, but will be more leery about revealing those of others.

Thanks!

Ed

February 18, 2005

The concern of losing a cache to someone who is "not fully informed" seems to take an inordinate amount of space in these forums. Granted, I'm a "newbie" to this sport, and actually happened upon the sport quite by accident, but we ALL were among the "unenlightened masses" at one time....

True, I try to practice stealth when searching AND/OR maintaining caches, but I think it's more in an effort to not spoil the hunt for others rather than out of a paranoid need to keep the Muggles at bay.

February 18, 2005

Regardless of the reason, suffice it to say, a little stealth and a lot of common sense will go a long way.

February 19, 2005

Recently, while enroute to a cache, there was a worker just over a hundred yards from the suspected location of the cache.

I introduced myself and discovered he had not heard of GeoCaching, so I explained it to him and asked if he would like to accompany me to see what it was all about.

He declined and the cache was far enough away from him that he couldn't observe my activities.

When I returned to my vehicle, he did ask how the search turned out.

Honestly, I am more concerned with those mugglers/outsiders/observers that are not curious, but instead may be paranoid and armed with a cell phone and ready to call the police at the drop of a hat!

I've got an idea, get one of those hardhats like construction workers wear, glue a GeoCache logo on it, and then you'll at least look like a utility worker walking around with some kind of handheld device....... OH... LIKE a StarTrek Tricorder, or whatever it was called !

February 19, 2005

but we ALL were among the "unenlightened masses" at one time....

Unless you're Dave Ulmer

My expirence (hope this is spelled correct)

Experience

edit: dang apostrophes

Edited February 19, 2005 by camo-crazed

6.7k · February 20, 2005

The concern of losing a cache to someone who is "not fully informed" seems to take an inordinate amount of space in these forums

We probably are blowing it out of proportion a bit, but my hides are mostly expensive - GeoRose and I like to place family-friendly traditionals with quality trinkets (average $5-10.) in them and keep the quality up by regular restocking - each cache, including the FTF prize, initially costs $80 to $100 bucks and we spend at least $20/month restocking - so the two caches I have had solen cost me money I can ill afford.

We give caches of this nature away at many events throughout the year as well.

Regardless, even if it's a 25-cent film can and a homemade log, it is an effort and expense to the owner that degrades the game when it gets muggled.

That's why I and others above discuss the need for muggle-identification, danger determination and/or avoidance.

See you on the trails!

Ed

February 20, 2005

Okay, now I'm less of a newbie than I was when I first posted the muggle question last week. Yesterday in Orlando (I got 5 finds) I found that some situations do require stealth and muggle awareness. I was seeking a cache in a parking lot at Walmart, deep, deep in muggle country. The only thing to do, since lots of folks were coming and going, many of them glancing at me, was to practice stealth. I snagged the cache, signed the log, and scooted away. Wiser, and probably a better cacher, now.

This person said it well: "...True, I try to practice stealth when searching and/or maintaining caches, but I think it's more in an effort to not spoil the hunt for others rather than out of a paranoid need to keep the Muggles at bay."

Maybe now we can talk about the folks who seem to think caches should be all hide 'n' sneak, and the more diabolically hidden the better. "Sneaky" hides seem to be more for the benefit of the hider than the finder. Turns me off. I think there's a difference between a challenging hide, and a sneaky hide. Who knows?... next week I may have a different opinion after a few more challenging finds. :laughing:

February 20, 2005

Actually this is the literal answer to the question "Geomuggles, are they dangerous?" In fact the are.

As far as being seriously injured or killed, humans are by far the most likely aggressors with about 15,000 people murdered each year in the US. Next on the list of dangers comes dogs. Yes, man's best friend. For the last 10 years about 18 people are killed by dogs each year in the US. Of those 18 people, about 60% are children under 10. That means about 10 children are killed by dogs each year. The number of people injured, crippled and disfigured by dogs each year is far greater.

3.3k · February 20, 2005

The only time I'm fairly cautious about curious onlookers is when I'm looking for any cache other than lame micros. I'm at the point that I could care less if someone sees me lift up a light pole base to remove an Altoids tin. I do make an effort to be discreet while searching for in town caches, but that is almost impossible when caches are hidden in plain view of everyone.

My only concern is that neighbors will call the cops on me when I search for a cache in a neighborhood.

20.7k · February 20, 2005

<_<

I hope that you are 'fairly cautious' every time you search for a cache. If you think it's lame, skip it. It was a present left for you by the cache owner. We should all remember that and show enough respect to try to protect it to the best of our abilities.

February 21, 2005

The only time I'm fairly cautious about curious onlookers is when I'm looking for any cache other than lame micros. I'm at the point that I could care less if someone sees me lift up a light pole base to remove an Altoids tin.

<_< If you think they are lame, why not just leave them? Why ruin the game for everyone else?

The way I see it is someone has given you the key to their property and giving that key to someone else is rather irresponsible. We owe it to the cache owner to take reasonable care not to expose their property to danger. :lol:

Edited February 21, 2005 by High IQ

3.3k · February 21, 2005

I hope that you are 'fairly cautious' every time you search for a cache. If you think it's lame, skip it. It was a present left for you by the cache owner. We should all remember that and show enough respect to try to protect it to the best of our abilities.

I wrote:

"I do make an effort to be discreet while searching for in town caches, but that is almost impossible when caches are hidden in plain view of everyone. "

What I should have said is I don't lose any sleep if I get seen. The problem with these types of caches is that the owner put no thought into cache placement. They never consider the possibility that the cache will eventually be exposed to the public do to "piss poor" placement. Increasing the cache difficulty rating due to muggles doesn't make the situation any better.

The majority of my hidden caches are out in uninhabited areas (where caches should be) so cachers don't have to worry about muggles. I do think there is a place for micros (I hunt them also), but I'm not going to wait 30 minutes to lift a lightpole cover because someone in a parking lot full of cars might see me. I use my daughter and my wife as cover on occasions, and I do most of my caching before dawn so muggles aren't a big factor.

If you think they are lame, why not just leave them? Why ruin the game for everyone else?

The way I see it is someone has given you the key to their property and giving that key to someone else is rather irresponsible. We owe it to the cache owner to take reasonable care not to expose their property to danger.

What about putting geocachers in danger by placing them in an impossible situation, like a cache across the street from 10 houses. On these caches, I "share" my opinion on the online logs.

Here is an example of what I have written recently:

"I found it in the rain after a minute of checking the usual spots.

I give the location a "D" grade though. I don't understand the logic of placing geocaches near homes, so the owners who don't know our game, wander what we're doing."

"Well I'll give the cache a "B" for creativity, but a "D" for location. I hate to look for caches near everyone's houses. I'm glad I haven't been confronted by suspicious homeowners yet."

Most of the caches I'm referring to cost less than 50 cents to put together. A free 35mm container, or Altoids tin, with a small paper log are hardly valuable. I have waited a long time to remove and replace a $90.00 dollar cache that had a micro hidden inside. The hiding spot was a work of art and warranted the utmost care and protection. On other custom created "In town" caches, I have returned during quiet times so as to not expose the cache..

Edited February 21, 2005 by Kit Fox

20.7k · February 21, 2005

If you don't think you can log a cache without giving away its location. Leave it be. Move on to the next one. I don't understand why you would risk cache exposure, especially when you don't even enjoy that type of cache.

February 21, 2005

Although I am just starting in this game... and plan to continue.. it is a great hobby, and I am just starting on my finds..

I have been looking within city limits as a matter of practice for the proficiency I will need to go get the ones that I really want, which are hidden far away from people.

I'll be honest with you. I have only just found one.. looked for several so far.. and already have experienced muggles interference. Oh, I am polite and cordial with muggles.. But I am not there to talk to people other than a friendly hello.. I feel that it kind of defeats my purpose. While I know that people are just curious as to what I would be doing, I don't like having to answer a million questions. If I wanted to talk to people that much, I would throw a party and that may be a better way to recruit people to the sport anyway.

Also, if you're having to explain to somebody what you're doing.. and then that cache turns up missing.. The question that is asked is: Who visited the cache last? Then you have to explain that you didn't muggle the cache. But you have that awful feeling that maybe you let someone see you grab it.. and they muggled it.. Therefore it is inadvertently by your hand that it is missing. Muggles just don't understand.. (with a few exceptions).. and could be self serving... (goes to the general dispostion of today's society anyway).

Edited February 21, 2005 by OccidentalErrant

February 21, 2005

I hope that you are 'fairly cautious' every time you search for a cache. If you think it's lame, skip it. It was a present left for you by the cache owner. We should all remember that and show enough respect to try to protect it to the best of our abilities.

"I do make an effort to be discreet while searching for in town caches, but that is almost impossible when caches are hidden in plain view of everyone. "

What I should have said is I don't lose any sleep if I get seen. The problem with these types of caches is that the owner put no thought into cache placement. They never consider the possibility that the cache will eventually be exposed to the public do to "piss poor" placement. Increasing the cache difficulty rating due to muggles doesn't make the situation any better.

I agree with Sbell111 and others regarding urban caches. If you don't like them, can't afford the time to be stealthy, then why not skip them? or is your find count more important than all else???

I once sat around for 20 minutes waiting for muggles to leave so I can replace the cache...I do this out of respect and appreciation for the cache owners. I also skipped a few when I couldn't afford the time.

3.8k · February 21, 2005

there's always a bandwagon... seems to be a popular thing to bash micros.

but you still hunt them. :huh:

3.3k · February 21, 2005

there's always a bandwagon... seems to be a popular thing to bash micros.

I wasn't bashing micros, if you look at my my profile page the best rated camo caches I listed were all micros. I hunt all caches, and I only have reservations about poorly placed caches. The problem with most of the crappy caches is that I don't know there crappy until I actually get to the location. I think I'm doing others a favor by warning them what they are getting into.

You guys assume I actively broadcast the cache hiding spot to all non-geocachers, with no disregard for it's hiding spot. This is not true. To date, I have yet to be last to find on any "high visibility caches", so I must be discreet enough. I just don't wait a 1/2 hour to retrieve a cache that is hidden in a bad spot. I have on numerous occasions left a cache location to return another time due to the proximity of onlookers. I just don't lose any sleep if I accidently get seen while putting an altoids tin back in it's high visibilty spot.

None of you can tell me that finding a 35mm can hidden in a rain gutter, on a public street, in front of houses would be easy. Try being discreet while your on the ground trying to retrieve it. I ended up re-positioning my truck to block my activity from the houses. I could have came at night with a flashlight, but then the neighbors would really wonder.

Try retrieving a plastic bag (geocache) underneath a sewer access cover, in the middle of a cul-de-sac, that is filled with houses. No matter how you try, you can't be discreet.

Let's get back to the topic at hand, are muggles dangerous. To date I haven't had any negative interations with muggles. If they are very close to me while i'm searching for any (lame or unique) cache, I wait until they pass before resuming my search.

Edited February 21, 2005 by Kit Fox

February 21, 2005

I think it is good to avoid any kind of 'suspicious' activity. I especially don't like explaining what Geocaching is to a police officer let alone muggles..

February 21, 2005

I used to be a muggle... i found my first cache as one, now i am hooked

February 21, 2005

Look, there is too much 'let them live' as far as muggles are concerned. This is the situation - they eat children and small animals. If you see one, rip its limbs off and nail its hide to the door of the outside facility.

OK? How hard can it be? I mean, come on, get with the program!

February 21, 2005

There are many good replies on this topic, but I'd like to add mine....

I cache with a reasonable amount of cautiousness, not to call undo attention to me or my group, being as casual as possible without looking suspicious.

Most people just walk on by.

When you are out for the day and you are powercaching (as many as time will

allow) to stop and talk to muggles to explain what you are doing is not very practical. (It takes up too much time!)

My quick explaination is, I am on a scavenger hunt. It's not a lie and people generally leave you alone.

Out of respect of the cache owner, if I am uncomfortable getting to it to sign the log, I come back another time. It's not a good idea to expose the hide to others that don't understand.

But most people are nice and don't mean harm. But how do you know when the bad ones come along? I am just cautious regardless.

If someone comes near, and is wondering what you are doing, put your GPS to your ear like a cell phone and pretend to talk to someone. It is a great trick.

February 22, 2005

It's funny our name is muggle although were no muggle to geocaching. Anyway......there have been times that I wished people knew what we were doing. Situations like my husband and I walking off the trails into the tree's or even worse creeping out of the trees....who knows what people thought we were doing in there.

February 23, 2005

It's funny our name is muggle although were no muggle to geocaching. Anyway......there have been times that I wished people knew what we were doing. Situations like my husband and I walking off the trails into the tree's or even worse creeping out of the trees....who knows what people thought we were doing in there.

I say, keep 'em guessing... :laughing:

February 23, 2005

Some micros do deserve bashing. It takes no skill for me to toss a film canister in a dish. Maybe I don't care that someone will be forced to sort through the garbage in plain view of several houses in order to log a find. I found a great micro the other day, however. It was really small and hidden in a very clean area. You looked around, no garbage, note even a place to hide. Until you thought as cleverly as the hider. No digging through grass and pine needles, either. Just creative, camo thinking.

2.2k · February 23, 2005

just like any other wild animals you'll come accross whilst caching, they'll be more scared of you than you are of them! give them plenty of space and don't back them into any corners!!

also try not to startle them they'll let out their warning call of "i'll call the cops"

try to blend in with their surroundings so that they'll ignore you. they only pay you attention if you appear to be doing something that they can't quite see.

February 28, 2005

Today I found a cache that I had previously missed finding 5 times! Whilst replacing the cache near an urban intersection, I noticed a car with two muggles in it watching me intently. I stopped what I was doing, looked at my wristwatch, and acted as though I was waiting for someone. It just felt right to not replace the cache (back into an upright post on a chain link fence adjacent to a highway) until the muggles went their way. I think I did right. I am ready to admit that there are situations which require stealth, and it's a learned thing. And I'm learnin'. :huh: Trudge on!

Geomuggles... Are They Dangerous?

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