"dangerous Game"?!?!

October 20, 2004

I don't frequent the forums here very much, but I need to get this out to all of you.

I am a police officer in south Georgia. We recently received an alert from an agency in north Georgia in reference to a suspicious device which later turned out to be a Geocache. The device resembled a PVC pipe-bomb.

That sent off red flags to alot of officers who have never heard of this hobby. I have been active in this for around 3 years.

First, I want to let you know that there was some concern that someone would use a cache as a chance to plant an improvised explosives. The initial impied issue was that this could be turn into covert activity, which is bull.

Please. When placing/finding your caches, be alert for anything out of hte ordinary. The fact is, that a terrorist is not likely to plant a device which could harm ONE or TWO people. It would typically be around where as many victims as possible would be hit.

Further. If you are placing caches, stay away from things that definitley appear to be home made... ie: PVC pipes with caps, etc.... we got this alert at our agency... who knows where all it went.

Stay Safe!

b1pig

October 20, 2004

Tips for avoiding having the bomb squad called out to inspect your cache:

1) avoid PVC tube caches that muggles will think is a pipe bomb, especially in high-traffic areas such as city parks. A PVC tube cache in a remote area is not a problem. One near a school or city landmark is.

2) Very clearly label the cache using an official sticker or similar labeling to make it obvious that your cache is a game piece and not a suspicious object

3) If possible, use a transparent container and camoflauge your cache with natural materials instead of camo tape, etc.

4) Hide it well enough that it won't be found by muggles

Edited October 20, 2004 by YuccaPatrol

22k · October 20, 2004

Tips for avoiding having the bomb squad called out to inspect your cache:

1) avoid PVC tube caches that muggles will think is a pipe bomb, especially in high-traffic areas such as city parks. A PVC tube cache in a remote area is not a problem. One near a school or city landmark is.

2) Very clearly label the cache using an official sticker or similar labeling to make it obvious that your cache is a game piece and not a suspicious object

3) If possible, use a transparent container and camoflauge your cache with natural materials instead of camo tape, etc.

4) Hide it well enough that it won't be found by muggles

What about educating your local Police Department? It'll help decrease concern over finding containers in remote areas as well as making it easier to explain what your doing when caught searching through the bushes.

6.5k · October 20, 2004

Tips for avoiding having the bomb squad called out to inspect your cache:

1) avoid PVC tube caches that muggles will think is a pipe bomb, especially in high-traffic areas such as city parks. A PVC tube cache in a remote area is not a problem. One near a school or city landmark is.

2) Very clearly label the cache using an official sticker or similar labeling to make it obvious that your cache is a game piece and not a suspicious object

3) If possible, use a transparent container and camoflauge your cache with natural materials instead of camo tape, etc.

4) Hide it well enough that it won't be found by muggles

Trying to decide how helpful these could be...

1. Good thinking, but avoiding anything that could be mistaken for a bomb means avoiding about everything. Defining what 'looks like a bomb' would be difficult because a bomb could probably be made to look like anything.

2 and 4 may or may not mesh well. Yes, label your containers! but OTOH you must relize hiding it so its not found by mistake, probably also means either totally covering or at least working the labeling(s) into the camo. Either way it makes it more difficult to read, especially from mr.bombsquad who isn't going to want to get that close....

3, I just don't like. Spending time considering what containers might mate better with what locations is great. But anywhere you can put any box you could use a 'transperent' one, however those containers may not be the best choice cache wise. Rubbermaid/tupperware etc lasts for a while but given time will leak, gladware and the like disposiable are even worse (sorry if this is news to anyone, but gladware is !@#%). Yes, there are some 'good' transpearent containers that are easy to seal and container to do so with most environmental changes. But who wants to spend $20 for a kayaking dry box? or hunt down some lock and lock?

oh, and be careful not to block too much with those labels

3.5k · October 20, 2004

1. Good thinking, but avoiding anything that could be mistaken for a bomb means avoiding about everything. Defining what 'looks like a bomb' would be difficult because a bomb could probably be made to look like anything.

Excellent point. I think one of the things we all need to realize is we're dealing with a very high "ignorance curve" here. First of all, people are ignorant of geocaching. That's really part of the fun though, isn't it? We get to educate them and then surprise them when they realize there are caches just about everywhere.

But there's also the ignorance curve about "what does a bomb look like?" They can look like anything - a cigar box, a stuffed animal even. Someone who wants to place a bomb is very unlikely to write the word "BOMB" on the side of it (unless he's placing it in an old Spy vs Spy cartoon).

The fact is, though, for the average ignorant American out there "pipe bomb = pipe." Leave a piece of schedule 40 PVC on the steps in front of your local school tomorrow and someone will show up to blow it up. That's just how it works.

At least part of the issue has to come down to responsible hiding techniques on the part of cachers. How invisible is your cache? What is the likelihood that it will be found? If it is found what is the most logical assumption the average ignorant person is going to make about it? Sorry..but that's the person who's going to dial 9-11 and get your cache blown up.

One major plus to all those urban micros is that I hear of scant few 35mm film canisters getting blown up by bomb squads. That's saying something, I guess.

Bret

1.6k · October 20, 2004

Pipe bomb look a like geocaches are a concern. A lot of the time, as others have suggested, the environment is telling. If the thing is hanging in a tree with "geocache" written on it, perhaps its less of a concern than a pvc pipe in a mall.

I guess I am reticent to think that just because I am out in the toulies, the pvc pipe is going to be OK. If I was a bomber type, I might want to set a couple off in isolated areas to see what damage I can create before going "prime time". If I was a pot farmer, I might use these as a defense against other pot people stealing my dope. Yeah if I am a terrorist with a proven workable design, I want to put the thing in the busiest place, but there are other people to be watchful of.

1.9k · October 20, 2004

here is my take...

PVC = 99% of the time bad

i have a pvc hidden cache in a park about 2 blocks from a school.

it though is in a place where no muggle will ever find it(and no i am not being overconfident) and because of it i feel that it is safe. anyway it was the only container i could make the cache out of.

20.7k · October 20, 2004

Whenever I read a thread like this one, it amazes me how few people know what a pipe bomb actually looks like. A pvc pipe with two end caps does not look like your standard pipe bomb.

It should also be noted that as many (probably more) clear tupperware caches and labelled caches have been 'neutralized' by the bomb squad as standard unpainted ammo poxes and 'pvc' caches.

The best ways to avoid having your caches exterminated is to (1) hide them in the woods, (2) hide only micros in muggle-filled areas, or (3) have permission and maintain the relationship with managers of the land on which your cache is placed. This third one can still blow up on you (pun intended) as the manager may not be consulted by the bomb squad.

I'm not saying that these three ideas must be ridgidly adheared to. But I do believe that if one does not follow them, he should not whine if his cache is blasted by a water cannon.

1.2k · October 21, 2004

It should also be noted that as many (probably more) clear tupperware caches and labelled caches have been 'neutralized' by the bomb squad as standard unpainted ammo poxes and 'pvc' caches.

Chapter and Verse please. Which is to say, Show me where you get this fact.

87% of all statistics are made up (including this one)

1.4k · October 21, 2004

As a veteran police officer, I first learned of geocaching from a teletype that was sent nationwide a couple of years ago. The teletype involved a bomb squad that had been called to a geocache site. I thought the game sounded intriguing and slowly became involved in it.

We have numerous officers within our department that geocache and more from surrounding departments. One of our EOD members is also a geocacher and we do what we can to educate other deputies.

You, as an officer, can help educate our fellow brethren about geocaching. It's up to common folks like you and I to help educate others.

As a police officer I have made myself available to any local agency which may be interested in learning about geocaching and am working on a Powerpoint presentation that I can give to fellow officers. My goal is to finish the presentation in the next couple of months and make it available to other LEOs. My presentation will be from a LEO's point of view and will be aimed at educating others in the law enforcement field.

Happy geocaching!

1.9k · October 21, 2004

87% of all statistics are made up (including this one)

67% of all people know that

2.3k · October 21, 2004

87% of all statistics are made up (including this one)

67% of all people know that

97% of those don't care...

2.1k · October 21, 2004

Whenever I read a thread like this one, it amazes me how few people know what a pipe bomb actually looks like. A pvc pipe with two end caps does not look like your standard pipe bomb.

you are correct but you didn't go far enough -

every pipe bomb that I have seen (gotta admit that is few as most end up in little pieces) has been made out of metal (read STEEL) pipe.

you don't get much of an explosion or cause much damage from a plastic bomb (you get noise). It is the fact that the steel holds in the combustion until the exposion that makes it so intense and then it becomes the shrapnel that causes injury.

Edited October 21, 2004 by CompuCash

24.7k · October 21, 2004

It should also be noted that as many (probably more) clear tupperware caches and labelled caches have been 'neutralized' by the bomb squad as standard unpainted ammo poxes and 'pvc' caches.

Chapter and Verse please. Which is to say, Show me where you get this fact...

You can start with the one in vegas from a few years ago. After that I've never kept track of the container type.

The two containers I have direct (as in outside the forums) knoweldge of were one each of plastic and metal and both were reported as drug stashes. and got a completely different response.

Edited October 21, 2004 by Renegade Knight

1.4k · October 21, 2004

The Vegas one was the one that made me aware of geocaching. A nationwide teletype was sent-out giving details of the game. I'm glad that I had the opportunity to learn about it.

2.7k · October 21, 2004

No Problem, just put it in an ammo can about 4 miles from the road, and only the smart ones will look for it.

1.2k · October 21, 2004

It should also be noted that as many (probably more) clear tupperware caches and labelled caches have been 'neutralized' by the bomb squad as standard unpainted ammo poxes and 'pvc' caches.

Chapter and Verse please. Which is to say, Show me where you get this fact...

You can start with the one in vegas from a few years ago. After that I've never kept track of the container type.

The two containers I have direct (as in outside the forums) knoweldge of were one each of plastic and metal and both were reported as drug stashes. and got a completely different response.

Still doesnt address the question of where he gets his "facts"

1.9k · October 21, 2004

It should also be noted that as many (probably more) clear tupperware caches and labelled caches have been 'neutralized' by the bomb squad as standard unpainted ammo poxes and 'pvc' caches.

Chapter and Verse please. Which is to say, Show me where you get this fact...

You can start with the one in vegas from a few years ago. After that I've never kept track of the container type.

The two containers I have direct (as in outside the forums) knoweldge of were one each of plastic and metal and both were reported as drug stashes. and got a completely different response.

Still doesnt address the question of where he gets his "facts"

I have heard about clear containers getting blasted as well as ammo cans

im gonna guess that if somebody researches it they will find more ammo cans getting the blast

October 21, 2004

Just today somebody on my other messageboard posted about "would you have called the police" I would have said yes too, but now I know about geocachers. I suggested It may be a geocacher.

nobody paid attention to me, maybe they think I'm a lunatic. I wonder if she knows her coordinates I could check for her.

October 21, 2004

It's unfortunate that everyone (including the police) iare so paranoid these days. There was this article on the early news this morning about a "bomb scare" at the US Embassy in Ottawa today because someone saw a "computer parts box" left near an entrance or something. It turned out to be a freakin empty HP Laser Toner Cartridge box. I'm sure it was pretty suspicious sitting by the backdoor where it blew off of or out of the garbage cans sitting 15' away.

Thorin

October 21, 2004

We have a cacher here in the area mentioned (North Georgia - Atlanta Metro) that has put out about 60+ caches within the last 3 months that from what I've heard are mostly PVC capped pipes.

It may be one of them that started this thread.

First, those who keep bringing up that most pipe bombs are made of "metal" pipes need to think outside the box. A PVC pipe filled with blasting material wrapped with nails would do plenty of damage.

Now if you think "damage" means quantity of destruction, then you could be mislead.

The worse damage to geocaching would be for a few cachers to be hurt by a PVC bomb (or any other bomb for that matter).

Then geocachers everywhere might be concerned for their safety and alot of park and recreational organizations would most likely ban it after a few episodes of such activity.

That would be alot of damage.

Look what the DC area sniper did to the whole country.....

Kenneth

22k · October 21, 2004

The bombs placed in our area, (real ones, not a scare), were packages placed in mailboxes. A bit difficult to realize what they were when you went to get the mail.

I think the point is that when it comes to bombs, people generally don’t think outside the box and they do have a pre-conceived idea of what a bomb will look like, typically a pipe-shaped object. Therefore you should consider this when you place a cache and try to avoid alarming people, irrational as it may be, and use a more….innocent looking container. (Note: I said should 'consider')

I know it’s silly. I know a bomb can look like anything, but we dealing with perceptions here, not reality.

Oh and by the way, statistically 3 out of 4 people make up 75% of the population; just don't ask me where I got my facts.

Edited October 21, 2004 by Elf Danach

1.8k · October 21, 2004

How about we just simplify this a little:

Don't hide a cache anywhere likely to get someone arrested or your trinkets blown up.

Don't hide a cache next to the police station. Don't hide a cache next to the governor's mansion. Don't hide a cache next to the bank headquarters. Don't hide a cache inside Grand Central Station.

There. That was easy.

October 21, 2004

For clarification after responses to my first response to the original poster, my "tips for avoiding the bomb squad" were not meant to be "rules" or "guidelines". They are just a few ideas that may or may not be useful to you when hiding a cache.

Just about any type of cache is appropriate in some situations and inappropriate in others.

20.7k · October 21, 2004

...
Still doesnt address the question of where he gets his "facts"

Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner. I don't live in the forums any longer.

I made my assumption based on similar threads posted over the last few years. I believe that if you do a search of the forums, you will find your substantiation.

Does anyone know exactly how many caches of each type are destroyed in this manner? Of course not. Many likely go unreported and are just presumed to be MIA. Has anyone heard of several PVC caches being lost to the boys in blue? I haven't. Of course, this type of cache is a small fraction of total caches placed. (I have no documentation of this either, unless I can go by my finds. In which case, I estimate PVC caches at less than .5% of the total cache population.)

October 21, 2004

Am curious to know which N Ga cache started this thread. Does anyone know?

I live in N Ga and only heard about this thru our GGA forums. (Georgia Geocacher's Association)

1.2k · October 21, 2004

...
Still doesnt address the question of where he gets his "facts"

Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner. I don't live in the forums any longer.

I made my assumption based on similar threads posted over the last few years. I believe that if you do a search of the forums, you will find your substantiation.

Does anyone know exactly how many caches of each type are destroyed in this manner? Of course not. Many likely go unreported and are just presumed to be MIA. Has anyone heard of several PVC caches being lost to the boys in blue? I haven't. Of course, this type of cache is a small fraction of total caches placed. (I have no documentation of this either, unless I can go by my finds. In which case, I estimate PVC caches at less than .5% of the total cache population.)

If you are going to make statements like the one you did it becomes your responsibility to substantiated your claims. Not expect me to. Statements like the one you made get read and repeated until people believe them and don't ask questions, They become fact simply by repetition. We need to have facts but lets have ones that are real and not simply pulled out of our butt.

So again I ask.

Chapter and Verse please. Which is to say, Show me where you get this fact...

You may be right. But you need to be able to back up what you submit as fact. Not expect me to do your homework for you.

October 22, 2004

Someone who wants to place a bomb is very unlikely to write the word "BOMB" on the side of it (unless he's placing it in an old Spy vs Spy cartoon).

That's it then. Since it's common knowledge that bombers don't write "BOMB" on their bombs, it follows that anything with "BOMB" written on it must be a non-bomb and therefore innocuous. So that's how we should label geocaches.

There's only two possible flaws in this solution:

1. Law enforcement officers might actually believe that bombers label their bombs as "BOMBS".

2. Al Queda or the KKK actually lurk this newsgroup looking for ways to conceal bombs and would conclude that unlabeled obects are actually more suspicious than objects clearly labelled "BOMB". Ergo....

Which do you think is more likely?

Groundspeak should make those safety vests bombproof.

October 22, 2004

Unfortunately, a lie repeated often enough and unanswered becomes the truth. Statisstics are irrelevant. I typically watch who has placed a cache and go after those I know, except for mountain man, he's just a sadist . Newbies make me warey. But even then you really can't be safe, who's to say that Phat.bak didn't place a cache in good faith and some sick person comes along and replaces his cache with a new "modified" one? In truth there are no right answers and you just gotta have faith in others. Cache safe.

20.7k · October 22, 2004

...You may be right. But you need to be able to back up what you submit as fact. Not expect me to do your homework for you.

Strangely enough, I need not do anything. No matter how much you demand it. People are acting like there is (1) a rash of caches placed that resemble bombs, and (2) these 'suspicious' caches are being destroyed by the bomb squad on a regular basis.

Neither of these assumptions appear to be the truth. In fact, from a search of the forums which I did (granted not a perfect sampling of all caches), few caches are destroyed and tupperware is a popular choice for getting the boys in blue out of the office.

Seriously, do you want a pie chart? Forget about it. Mmmmmm, pie.

Edited October 22, 2004 by sbell111

October 22, 2004

I think we are being a little over reactive here. I have used PVC on several caches and none, NONE, have been mistaken for pipe bombs. Perhaps its because they look so unlike a pipe bomb. Also if someone wants to plant a bomb it ain't necessarily going to be a pipe bomb. Remember Timothy McVey....... A rented Ryder truck. Mr. McVey was a terrorist just a must as Ossama. He just happened to be an American.

I will continue to use PVC for my Cache containers.

Let's be realistic here.... Not hypo-reactive.

And since we ae on the topic... what about ammo-boxes????? A far superior bomb container. Seems there is no problem there.

I await comments.

October 22, 2004

The average citizen going about thier day doesn't know what an improvised explosive looks like. All they know is when thier kids digging in the leaves at the base of a tree ina park find a small container, they're gonna freak. Admit the likelyhood of it happening.

Why else would the cops come out and blow up a cache? We typically respond to investigate what a citizen says they saw. Each agency has thier own response. Me, being from a "small" (not metro atlanta) law enforcement agency, we respond and investigate. Normally, we just walk up, light a match and key our radio a few times. If it don't blow up, it ain't a bomb. :lol:

In all reality, the easiest way to avoid this, is to make a quick phone call, letter or stop to chat with the local officer/deputy, etc... (police chief, sherriff...)

Law enforcement officers are trained to evaluate the circumstances. If we know that there is a cache in a city park in a certain general area, and someone "suspicous" is seen walking around with a little box trying to fond something, then we have a pretty good clue as to what they are doing.

I didn't become aware of Geocaching from my job. I found out about it from fellow Jeepers on Quadratec.

This is just something I want my family and I to continue enjoying for years to come. With the way the "alert" was worded, I could see our fun going down the tubes.

October 22, 2004

After reading a bunch more in this thread I think the government should ban Geocching and antone with a GPS unit be arrested a a terrorist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

October 22, 2004

Like phat.bak, I'm curious WHICH North Georgia cache has caused all the ruckus. Does someone know the cache ID that was mistaken for a bomb?

100% of the people typing this message want to know.

1.4k · October 22, 2004

The average citizen going about thier day doesn't know what an improvised explosive looks like.

Uh.... I am a trained and state certified LEO and I still don't know what an IED resembles...

Did I miss something in my academy classes or my CEUs? :lol:

Seriously, as others have mentioned a bomb can resemble anything. I'm not on our EOD squad, but have ridden enough shifts and spent enough time with them to be resonably confident to reply in this thread.... and yes, one of our EOD members is a well respected geocacher

As far as what sbell said:

No matter how much you demand it. People are acting like there is (1) a rash of caches placed that resemble bombs, and (2) these 'suspicious' caches are being destroyed by the bomb squad on a regular basis.

That's a very true statement... I would be willing (based on what I read here and on various news sources and LEO only teletypes) that less than 1/10th of 1% of all geocaches are ever even visited by a non-geocaching LEO. I have no facts to back-up this statement as it is my own theory based on information I receive from various (not to be named) sources.

October 24, 2004

I am a member of a regional hazmat team with close ties to EOD teams through-out my state. The issue is growing, and will continue to rise in occurrance.

Consider the appearance of your cache containers. If it looks supicious, it will be treated the same by local authorities. Choose your container well, mark them clearly and most should live long happy lives.

October 25, 2004

Ya and don't use a HP LaserToner Box because they're definately "suspicious"

Thorin

38.2k · October 25, 2004

I am a member of a regional hazmat team with close ties to EOD teams through-out my state. The issue is growing, and will continue to rise in occurrance.
Consider the appearance of your cache containers. If it looks supicious, it will be treated the same by local authorities. Choose your container well, mark them clearly and most should live long happy lives.

Its not so much a choice in container as it is a choice in location. If you place your cache in an area where its likely to be discovered, or where searchers are likely to be observed and arouse suspicion, you're asking for trouble.

If you must place caches in areas like this then its a good idea to avoid PVC pipes and ammo boxs, particularly ones with the military markings still visibile. Still, even a clear plastic container isn't necessarily going to keep the bomb squad from coming out and blowing up your cache. If the container is full its not obvious to them what is inside.

Clearly marking it may help in some cases, but not all. The more info on the container, the better. If you can provide an e-mail address and phone # on the outside of your container, that would be really good.

1.2k · October 25, 2004

My most recent cache "PDX Aiport Travel Bug Embassy" consists of a ammo can painted a nice shade of royal blue. It's in a fairly public place, so camo color would have been REALLY stupid for the purpose.

I WAS going to go for hot pink, but that would have been silly. <_<

October 25, 2004

I live in a small community where I know all the officers by name. Recently, I noticed that the number of caches in my county has grown to 32. Not huge by any means but enough that I thought it was time to fill in the law on geocaching. I recently posted this message in my local organizations forum:

I've been thinking for some time now that I should do this and I'm

encouraging you to do the same. Knowing that our activity could

sometimes be seen as suspicious and also knowing that caches in my

county are really on the rise, I decided to meet with the local

sheriff and give him the "geo-rundown".

In the day and age that we live in, there are several containers

that could be misconstrued for something dangerous by people who

have no idea what caching is all about. Cachers who don't know that

they are being watched could also been seen as suspicious as they

poke and prod around in the bushes. I just thought it was a good

time to fill in one of the head muggles on geocaching.

It was a great meeting, I took a file with me that contained

information about geocaching, a sample cache page and a printout of

a map that showed where all the caches were in Jasper county. I

also included two pages of pictures that showed different kinds of

cache containers and made sure to include some that could be

questionable by the police (such as PVC pipe caches). Ed (the

Sheriff) thought this was very cool and was very receptive to all

the information.

I told Ed that since geocaching was growing in this area, he might

get a few calls about suspicious people looking around for something

or calls from someone who found what they thought was something

dangerous. Now, Ed and I are friends and go back a long way. He's

also a big fan of DQ cheeseburgers, so it was easy to walk in the

office and fill him in. Even though you may not know your local

officers, I would encourage you to put together a file about

geocaching and share with with your local law enforcement. Ed has a

meeting scheduled with the rest of his officers next week and says

he will be sharing all the information I gave him.

I've kept a copy of everything I put in the file and if anyone would

like to educate someone in there community, just let me know if I

can help. I would be glad to share it.

Scoob

"dangerous Game"?!?!

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