A Gentle Reminder

[Lactodorum]

More of a request really. As everybody who submits a cache for review already knows, caches must never be placed in dry stone walls, in walls of old buildings or on ancient monuments etc.

 

However, newer cachers may not realise this and may inadvertantly search in such places while hunting for a cache. Could everybody remember to abide by these rules (not guidelines) and leave such places alone.

 

If you come across an instance where a cache seems to fall foul of these rules could you drop myself or Eckington a line so we can investigate. We really need to keep "our noses clean" in such matters.

 

Ta!!!

[+Team Ullium]

I must admit that sounds extremely good sense...and as a newcomer to geocaching and about to place my first caches I will do my best not to fall foul of anything that may bring geocaching into disrepute.

 

I haven't come across any in ancient monuments and I assume you dont class dry stone walls or old ruined buildings that have fallen into disrepair in your rules!

 

Ullium.

Edited July 5, 2004 by Ullium

[+klaus23]

Erm - I can think of several examples right away...

but I don't want to be the one who wees on someone's bonfire

[+Flyfishermanbob]

When is a "dry stane dyke" a "dry stane dyke"? guess its when is a functional barrier ...assume delelict dry stane dykes dont count ?

 

The monuments I can understand .....

 

Elaboration on walls of old houses would be appreciated ..I know of several caches in the "shells" of old buildings (I have 2) ..

 

AAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

 

ok so 1 is just the remaining foundations ....

 

ps where are these rules...all I can find are "guidelines"

[+Flyfishermanbob]

And the other isnt in the walls

phewwwwwwwww

[+Inukshuk and Arwen]

Yep - i'd like to see the rule book for setting caches too and I'd be happy to post it in a prominent place on the www.geocachingtoday.com website so people know where to find it.

 

I have a multi, one part of which has a clue located in a wall which i will relocate it if the rules say I have to.

 

I'm aware of others but i'm not going to blow the whistle here - there must be scores of them around the country!

[+jochta]

What about SSSIs? I avoid them by using the freely available GIS coverages found on the English Nature website (http://www.english-nature.org.uk/pubs/gis/GIS_register.asp). Or you can search by county (http://www.english-nature.org.uk/special/sssi/search.cfm) if you don't have a GIS.

 

When I plotted local geocaches and the SSSI coverage, quite a few are placed within SSSIs. I've seen the placing guidelines but they don't specifically mention SSSIs or any of the other protected sites...

 

i.e. Special Areas of Conservation (SACs), Special Protection Areas (SPAs) or Ramsar sites.

 

Many SSSIs are also National Nature Reserves (NNRs) or Local Nature Reserves (LNRs).

 

Presumably the act of hiding or seeking a cache should not damage the environment. A well hidden cache in a protected area may cause the seeker to inadvertandly damage the area whilst searching. What are peoples/approvers thoughts on this?

[+Eckington]

.....my own lay on this hinges around the permission issue.

 

As a reviewer I trust my freinds in the caching community in that I assume they have permission to place the cache.

 

Sometimes, where I know there are wider issues involved as with the current debate with the Forestry Commision or the New Forest, when I check on the map and see a cache might well be in a special area I post the setter and ask them to reassure me that they have the permission of the local ranger/warden to place the cache.

 

Otherwise I assume that, having gained permission to place the cache the landowner will have discussed the location with the setter. This being so caches within any of the areas quoted should be in a position where no damage can be done.

 

I also rely on my belief that the caching community are environmentally very aware and are not likely to either place, or hunt a cache in any way that is likely to cause damage to the environment in any way.

 

Mind you, having followed tracks, seemingly leading no-where, through six foot braken or nettles I sometimes wonder............

 

Hope this helps a little,

 

Cheers and cache Well,

 

Eckington

[+Chris n Maria]

Not all SSSIs are that fragile, we have a cache in a SSSI and the warden was very happy about it and was very surprised when we didn't bury it!!

 

Managing many areas involves a lot of hacking and burning, for instance Epping Forest requires constant grazing to maintain the open areas, coppicing of trees, heavy equipment to dig out ponds and lay paths. Many other local SSSIs require similar. Management often means not "leave it as it is" more "hack it back to how it should be". In amongst all this slashing and burning an ammo box under a log is hardly going to damage things.

 

local knowledge and getting permission is the way to go

 

Chris

[Lactodorum]

....and my views strongly echo Ekington's (hmmm! that almost rhymes )

 

Whenever anybody submits a cache for review they state that they have obtained the landowner's permission by ticking the relevant box on the submission page. We take it that people do not deliberately set out to deceive us.

 

That being said, where we know of a particular issue we sometimes contact the placer to confirm this is the case.

 

The sites you mention jochta are an excellent resource and I recommend people to check them out. I found this quote to be sobering:

 

"It is an offence under Section 28 P(6) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as incorporated by the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000), without reasonable excuse, intentionally or recklessly to destroy or damage any of the flora, fauna, or geological or physiographical features by reason of which land is of special interest, or intentionally or recklessly to disturb any of those fauna. A person found guilty of any such offence may be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £20,000 or on conviction on indictment to a fine."

 

This only goes to underline the need to obtain permission which, like Chris 'n Maria, I have found is unlikely to be unreasonably refused. The landowners/managers I have spoken to have almost all been quite supportive of the sport once they understand it.

 

I'd like to reiterate that this thread wasn't started to impose any new rules or restrictions, just as a reminder of what already exists.

[+Inukshuk and Arwen]

I guess that there may be quite a considerable number of less well known bye laws that pertain in one way or another to the activities of geocachers in the UK. And I also realise that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

 

To this end it it would be great if someone with knowledge of this type of legislation could summarise the main points that us lay cachers should be aware of as far a the law is concerned (and of course i'd be delighted to publish it somewhere in the magazine!)

 

Any takers - please contact me at editor@geocachingtoday.com

 

thanks and best regards

inuk

[+Brenin Tegeingl]

I have a cache placed in a SSSI, and have the permission of the land owner, who would not grant it until the Countryside Council of Wales (a dept of the Welsh Assembly), had approved the placement. This involved a site visit with a officer from CCW, who was very impressed with the CITO ethos of Geocaching. I don't know what the laws are in England, but here in Wales, all activities in SSSI's including any work by the landowner are regulated by CCW, who have the final say over what happens (I was informed of this by both the landowner, and the CCW Officer). So it is possible to place caches in SSSI's as long as you go about it the right way!

Dave

[markandlynn]

We have experienced this first hand. We placed a cache on FC land and as we were new to the sport just assumed like many others have that as we had seen caches placed on FC land it was OK, the cache is now archived and rightly so. We have two approved caches out there with permision and are now seeking permision for 3 more in the local area (one is in the bag but we need to find a hiding spot). I know how annoyed I would be if someone did what we did with our first cache and placed one in any of these 3 areas without contacting the land owner. While obtaining these permisions we are also seeking to establish contacts at these organisations for getting approval or better still a blanket approval for all sites owned by them. We dont want a repeat of the USA where i believe all national parks have refused permision for ANY caches.

This is slighlty off the initial topic but seems in line with the general thread.

[+BugznElm'r]

Now I'm confused (it's not uncommon! ) One of our caches is indeed in a dry stone wall. Does this mean I need to remove it??

[+Naefearjustbeer]

I have found 4 that are located in walls. 1 is archived and one is in ireland. The other 2 are in ruined remains of walls and are still active, I presume fallen down walls are ok? If not I will maybe point the cache owners to this thread

[Lactodorum]

I guess a little clarification is needed. All cache placers will be very familiar with the Geocaching.com rules and guidelines which we agree to every time we place a cache. Unless a cache conforms to those it will not get listed on the GC.com site. Simple.

 

However we also consider local conditions here in the UK & Ireland (OK, and Isle of Man etc!) when reviewing caches for listing. Over the few years that Geocaching has existed a number of people/groups have tried to put together sensible guidelines which would govern the sport over here. Unfortunately the unilateral imposition of these guidelines as Rules led to problems in the past.

 

Eckington and I try to use these guidelines more as guiding principles than rules to be slavishly adhered to. After all, there is nothing in the GC.com conditions that say that cache placers shouldn't put caches in dry stone walls nor is there anything to say that black bin liners shouldn't be used etc.

 

SSSI's are a particular instance where we try and apply a RULE whereby we have to be absolutely sure permission has been properly obtained. The reason for this is because SSSI's are covered by specific legislation and the consequences of not complying can be severe (see previous post).

 

Where blanket permission has been given for cache placement, it has been given on the condition that certain guidelines MUST be adhered to. In those circumstances we have to apply them as unbreakable rules. The rest of the time we try to apply good old fashioned common sense.

 

So where does this leave dry stone walls etc.?

 

Hopefully undamaged by geocachers !!

 

We would strongly request anybody thinking about placing a cache in a dry stone wall to consider the impact it might have. Think whether cachers looking for it are likely to have to move stones in their hunt for it. Consider the condition of the wall. Is it in use and controlling stock or is it a tumble down ruin? Consider the size of the cache, is it a lunchbox or a 35mm film container. Consider instructions or hints given on the cache page. Does it say "No stones need to be disturbed when looking for the cache"? Is the structure a scheduled ancient monument or just an old ruined building?

 

At the end of the day there's nothing in the GC.com guidelines that says it can't be there but common sense may say otherwise. Eckington and I try to maintain this balance between the wishes of geocachers and the needs of the environment when reviewing caches. If however you feel we have got this balance wrong, please let us know (as you have already been doing , thanks) and we will request the owner to re-consider. Let's face it, the vast majority of all cache placers are responsible people with a concern for the local environment. True, many are daft as brushes , but they have the best interest of the sport at heart.

 

Also remember that many of the caches out there were placed long before these guidelines came into being and as such have become "grandfathered".

[+BugznElm'r]

Thanks for the clarification! Mine is in a stone wall with 'built-in' niches every now and then and it's a tall wall so no chance of removing any stones! I think that should be ok.

 

Mrs Bugz

Edited July 11, 2004 by BugznElm'r

[+wildlifewriter]

SSSI's are a particular instance where we try and apply a RULE whereby we have to be absolutely sure permission has been properly obtained. (snip)

Indeed, but permission itself should be the only one consideration. Thought should be given to possible disturbance when a proposed cache is close to a protected area. This is especially important where the area is a shoreline, estuary, or other significant wetland; these can be very sensitive at certain times of the year.

 

In the UK, many such places are designated under the international Ramsar Covention, and they can be extensive. For example: here in Northern Ireland, the entire foreshore of Strangford Lough is a designated area and thus legally protected.

 

There is a useful hyperlinked map service here CIESIN map viewer

 

Hope this helps.

[+harrogate hunters]

Dry stone walls......

 

I must have missed this one.... I did not know about the dry stone walls situatuation.... I have just re-read all the guidelines and dont seem to find it....

 

Can someone point me in the right direction.... what else have I missed....

 

I have always been careful about placements, and always tried to be up front with potential problems, by asking Lacodorum & Ekington's views before releasing...

 

I think this needs to be publicised more.... Am I the only one who does, not know this rule..... I think not, not after visiting plenty of sites that this applies to, and some of these are new sites.

 

Maybe its just more promient in Yorkshire.

 

As I think, as mentioned with the previous people, there are quite a few of these around, and some, new caches also.

 

Anyway.... I have just reviewed my caches, and I have only one..... the wall in question is in the middle of a forest, and large chunks of it are gone.... its no longer there for its purpose, and therefore I think this should be ok....however, I will visit in the next 7 days, move and alter the cache page.

[Lactodorum]

You raise a very valid point HH

 

As well as the normal GC.COM guidelines that every cache submitter knows by heart , when Eckington and I are reviewing caches we bear in mind the following guidelines developed by GAGB.

 

I stress that these are only guidelines and we are not bound by them. However they do represent good common sense and anybody complying with them are unlikely to have trouble getting their caches listed.

 

Hope this helps.

[Cluedo]

Just completed the "old engine house cache" and i must say that the stone wall area is in danger of collapsing if people keep dismantling the wall while searching for this cache.. You can easily see the amount of damage caused in the cache site area.

I think that a far more suitable hide site would have been a stone mound some 20 yards away

 

just a grumble from

cluedo

[+PopUpPirate]

Big problems at the fab Toby's Treasure Trail 3.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...8a-9895ec2448e9

 

Not the setters fault - it does clearly state that it is not in the wall.

[+keehotee]

At the risk of sounding like a pedant....

 

As everybody who submits a cache for review already knows, caches must never be placed in dry stone walls, in walls of old buildings or on ancient monuments etc.

is quite different from

No cache should be placed in such a way as to risk damage or disturbance to any Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) or Scheduled Ancient Monument (SAM)

- especially when you consider SAM's such as hillforts and stone circles that could cover several acres....... dozens of which already contain caches.

Can we have some clarification please?

Edited November 23, 2007 by keehotee

[+La Fifi]

Big problems at the fab Toby's Treasure Trail 3.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...8a-9895ec2448e9

 

Not the setters fault - it does clearly state that it is not in the wall.

 

This just makes me so sad!

 

I'm sorry but GC rules or not, who in their right mind would make the effort to go out into the countryside and do such wanton damage?

 

OK it may only have happened one stone at a time, but even so, someone must have made a conscious decision to carry on regardless.

[+keehotee]

And at the risk of sounding all the more pedantic - why is everybody assuming the damage to Toby's Treasure Trail occured one stone at a time and was done by cachers - when there are logs like this

July 26 by DaveSav (331 found)

Obviously been a little party nearby recently - the remains of a fire and a few cans gave it away.

[+MartyBartfast]

Big problems at the fab Toby's Treasure Trail 3.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...8a-9895ec2448e9

 

Not the setters fault - it does clearly state that it is not in the wall.

That's outrageous and I'd like to think no cacher would do such damage, I'm pretty sure noone I've met to date would. One of the other logs said that there was evidence of a nearby party (fire pit & beer cans) so maybe it was jut wanton vandalism by some plebs

[Deceangi]

At the risk of sounding like a pedant....

 

As everybody who submits a cache for review already knows, caches must never be placed in dry stone walls, in walls of old buildings or on ancient monuments etc.

is quite different from

No cache should be placed in such a way as to risk damage or disturbance to any Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) or Scheduled Ancient Monument (SAM)

- especially when you consider SAM's such as hillforts and stone circles that could cover several acres....... dozens of which already contain caches.

Can we have some clarification please?

 

Over time due to the changing nature of Geocaching in the UK, the UK Reviewer Team have developed Local Guidelines to take into account of these changes. You'll find that if a cache is submitted now which we are aware is located in a protected area such as a SAM, we will require proof of permission off the Landowner or the cacher will have to move the location so that it is around 0.1 miles away [we do apply leeway over this distance]. Caches already placed in such locations are treated as being Grandfathered IN, unless we receive a complaint about the cache. At which time we will take the appropriate action for that cache.

 

Personally I've recently had to deal with 2 caches located within SAM's, after I received complaints about them from a council officer [who happens to be a Geocacher]. Both were Temporarily Disabled to allow the owners to relocate them outside of the SAM. One was Archived and the container confirmed to have been uplifted, the second one is being relocated on the behalf of the owner by the Council Officer and the County Archaeologist.

[+Bill D (wwh)]

At the risk of sounding like a pedant....

 

As everybody who submits a cache for review already knows, caches must never be placed in dry stone walls, in walls of old buildings or on ancient monuments etc.

is quite different from

No cache should be placed in such a way as to risk damage or disturbance to any Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) or Scheduled Ancient Monument (SAM)

- especially when you consider SAM's such as hillforts and stone circles that could cover several acres....... dozens of which already contain caches.

Can we have some clarification please?

Caches in or on dry stone walls, or indeed any structure with loose stones which could be removed in the hunt, should of course be avoided. And if a cache is placed near such a structure then it's perhaps a good idea to place it far enough away that there's no risk of gps inaccuracy leading cachers to search the structure.

 

Deceangi has covered the subject of SAMs, which are now considered out of bounds for new caches.

 

I have one cache at a hillfort which later became the original city of Salisbury, and which also has the remains of a cathedral there. I've made it a multi with all but the last stage being virtuals. The trail takes cachers around the site, but the final container is outside the boundary of it.

[+DR. Ape]

Ok,

 

I have only ever placed 2 caches.

 

One on a SAM the other on an SSSI.

 

Both instances took a lot of time and effort to find the right place to locate the final position of the cache whilst making the most of the site you would visit. We spoke to Local Gov officers, Parish Councils and Archaeologists all whom were, and are, happy with the position and the way it was set out. As responsible cachers it was vital that everyone was happy before it was submitted for reviewing. Since then we have been asked if we would like to place more caches out on similar sites as those involved use the feedback to get an idea of what people think.

 

So I would say with a lot of thought and contact with the people who are responsible for the site a really interesting area can be opened up for enjoyment, which might not otherwise have been visited.

[+La Fifi]

...never mind...

Edited November 23, 2007 by La Fifi

[+dino-irl]

Ok,

 

I have only ever placed 2 caches.

 

One on a SAM the other on an SSSI.

 

Both instances took a lot of time and effort to find the right place to locate the final position of the cache whilst making the most of the site you would visit. We spoke to Local Gov officers, Parish Councils and Archaeologists all whom were, and are, happy with the position and the way it was set out. As responsible cachers it was vital that everyone was happy before it was submitted for reviewing. Since then we have been asked if we would like to place more caches out on similar sites as those involved use the feedback to get an idea of what people think.

 

So I would say with a lot of thought and contact with the people who are responsible for the site a really interesting area can be opened up for enjoyment, which might not otherwise have been visited.

Those there are the key phrases.....I wish everyone could take this approach when hiding a cache