Parking Coordinates A 'spoiler'?

1.6k · February 5, 2004

Posting additional parking coordinates however, undermines my efforts and encourages others to follow suit, thereby changing the intended cache experience. In essence, this can only be defined as a spoiler. For this reason, I do feel that it is rude to post additional coordinates and I would not hesitate to delete any logs on my cache pages where the cacher has listed additional coordinates.

A geocacher has stated that they would DELETE found it logs from their caches if they contained parking coordinates, or alternate parking coordinates to those listed on the cache.

They have a very broad definition of what a 'spoiler' is.

They asked this question in response to a log I made on a different geocacher's cache:

Would this be a spoiler or is it just rude?

I would like some feedback from other cachers (in other areas) for the following:

1) Are parking coordinates a 'spoiler'?

2) Is it right to delete a found it log, even if encrypted, that mentions parking coordinates?

Thank you.

February 5, 2004

For proper context: http://bcgeocaching.com/modules.php?name=F...viewtopic&t=135

____________

Gorak

February 5, 2004

On caches that I have done that included parking coordinates in the description, I have never bothered to use them. So, they definately would not be a spoiler for me, since I would most likely ignore them.

As far as deleting a log, that seems a bit harsh. A better option would be to email the person who wrote it, explain your opinion, and ask them to remove the coords. It would take something much more controversial than this to get me to delete a log!

1.6k · February 5, 2004

Gorak, I was going to ask that you not show up on this thread, but I thought perhaps you'd have the decency to just avoid this one...

:blink:

The context is within my opening post and the two questions I ask. It's that simple. I don't name names, I don't want any confrontation here. I've asked something fairly simple...

Edited February 5, 2004 by canadazuuk

2.6k · February 5, 2004

I would like some feedback from other cachers (in other areas) for the following:

1) Are parking coordinates a 'spoiler'?

2) Is it right to delete a found it log, even if encrypted, that mentions parking coordinates?

1) No. Parking coordinates are money, gas and nature savers. If the challenge is to cruise around tens of kilometers to find an optimal parking spot, I just don't like it. Don't get me wrong, I like challenge. I've said this many times before and I'll say it again: Make me walk, run, crawl, jump and tiptoe to reach the cache and sing I Am the Walrus before I am allowed to open the container, but save me from the unnecessary, expensive and polluting driving.

And yes, I do walk and ride bicycle to caches. I use a car also. Gas costs $4.77/gallon(US) here today. I wouldn't like to use it more than necessary, just because someone thinks it's challenging to sit on my butt and drive around.

2) Deleting someone's log without hesitation, as they said, seems a bit harsh. I'd say it's not right. It would be right to ask the finder to change their log or just encrypt it themselves. Of course, encrypting a set of coordinates doesn't make them unreadable. Maybe writing the last 3 digits like three hundred sixty five and encrypting it would disguise it enough?

Edit: typo and grammar.

Edited February 5, 2004 by Divine

1.3k · February 5, 2004

I completely agree with Divine. That hider needs to calm down a little bit. It's all fun and games anyways, until someone loses an eye. :blink: OR SPENDS $4.77 FOR A GALLON OF GAS!

Gas costs $4.77/gallon(US) here today.

Where is that? I thought 2.00 was high! Thats insanity.

3.9k · February 5, 2004

1) Are parking coordinates a 'spoiler'?

No.

2) Is it right to delete a found it log, even if encrypted, that mentions parking coordinates?

No. Deleting a found log without warning is bad form. An email should be sent saying, "would you mind taking out the part with the parking coords. I'd really prefer cachers park at my location for difficulty or scenery or whatever." Even then I wouldn't delete it. The players have a choice on which direction they want to go. If they want the longer scenic route they'll take it. If not they won't. Besides I hardly ever pay much attention to parking coords. I check a map and decide for myself where I want to park. Isn't it easy enough to figure out where the closest place to park is? If they want to park closer they will with or with out your coords. Therefore, the cache owner should chill out.

1.8k · February 5, 2004

In the UK we pay more per US gallon than that, but most of Europe will be buying petrol at that sort of price.

February 5, 2004

I can almost see the spoiler point if the hider wanted to paint a certain picture with the entire hunt, by starting you at a certain spot, and give parking coords to try and do that.

But if you want to better ensure the path from beginning to end, make it a multi, with the first WP at the parking you want the finders to use.

So no, I don't think you could consider logging parking coords a spoiler.

If I was asked nicely by the cache owner to remove the coords from my log, I think I would do it. If, instead, my log was just deleted, I'd just avoid that hider's caches.

1.3k · February 5, 2004

Really? I had no idea. Our gas prices here in California are about 2.00 give or take. I cant believe that it gets up to 5.00 per gallon. It costs about 26 dollars to fill up my car. At those prices it would cost more than 60 dollars. I wouldnt be able to drive anywhere.

1.6k · February 5, 2004

Which means you would want the closest parking coordinates for the caches you'd actually drive to!!

1.6k · February 5, 2004

Or maybe not!

Depending what 'close' means. If it actually means you'd drive further, who knows...

Thanks everyone so far for your replies.

I agree with the general sentiment expressed, which is that if presented with some reason to encrypt or remove the coordinates, I would.

1.3k · February 5, 2004

Yup. I'd want the closest parking spot, so I could ride my bike!

Who is that cute girl in your avatar? :blink:

1.6k · February 5, 2004

Oh sheesh, that dang avatar of mine again?

Anja Garbarek

I have some special parking coordinates for her.

(Next to a mail box so she can send me some special music cd's... :blink: )

Edited February 5, 2004 by canadazuuk

February 5, 2004

I've never really understood the problem with parking coordinates. It's not as if you are forced to read them and interpret them.

If a cache description says "Look under the fallen tree" then it goes into your brain and you can't ignore it.

If it says "I parked at N52 23.434 W2 14.765" it's not as if your brain immediately parses that and gives it away. Maybe others are more superhuman than me, but to me those numbers tell me it's somewhere near my house, because I recognise the major numbers, but in no way would I be able to park there without significant effort - either putting the numbers in a GPS, or checking on mapsource or converting to British Grid and checking against a map.

That's my take on the matter. One exception may be caches with a catch, where the hunt is performed in some unexpected way - for example you have to take a boat from a specific location, which you have to research for yourself. Maybe then the page could say "Don't post spoilers". Note that the location is "research" not "driving around until you find something suitable".

We considered using the 'convert to multi with first point near parking' for one of our caches which is _much_ more interesting if you go our recommended route.

Cheers,

Stu

6.4k · February 5, 2004

OK, I'm gonna go against the popular opinion here, I guess.

1) Are parking coordinates a 'spoiler'?

Maybe. Depends on a cache. I've hidden ones I want to be easy, and family friendly, and listed parking coords. I've also hidden ones where part of my intended challenge (and rated difficulty) was in finding a way in. I would not want people posting parking coords on that type of cache. My GF has a cache that she posted parking coords. It's the closest LEGAL place to park, and it's about .5-.7 to the cache from there. At least one finder has parked illegally, on the side of of highway, 500ft away. If THOSE parking coords were posted, she would not be happy.

2) Is it right to delete a found it log, even if encrypted, that mentions parking coordinates?

The cache owner has no choice but to delete a log. He can't edit it. Encrypting it doesnt effect numbers. I would paste the log into an email to the finder so he would have it to edit, and delete it. That's the only way I can remove info that I consider a spoiler.

Also, it's been said time and time again, the cache owner has the right to set the logging rules. It's his cache. If he states in the cache description not to post parking coords for his cache, and you do, you should expect it to be deleted.

4.5k · February 5, 2004

Every post a subsequent finder logs are "spoilers" whether they're parking coordinates or some other "clue" that will help the next finder to the cache. What's the cache hider to do? Edit every post? Ask the logger to change it?

I recently hid a cache posting my parking coordinates and recommending a nice 1/2 hike to the cache. So guess what? Everyone's cute, takes the shortcut and posts things like "Came the other way from the east - only .1 mile" Well, his parking coordinates weren't there but the "hint" for the next cacher were pretty obvious. At first I was annoyed but then I remembered it's part of the game to creatively use hints and look at maps and try to out fox the hider.

The "rules" state that logs can be spoilers and leave the option to the reader to read or not read and use or not use. They should be left alone unless it gives more info than the encrypted hint.

Alan

February 5, 2004

I think parking co-ordinates are fine. If i don't want to use them, I can ignore them, Unless I make an effort to use them they are useless. If however the cacher has a good reason for not wanting them posted, it is a simple matter to email the finder and ask him to remove them. Treat others as you would be treated and everyone stays happy.

1.8k · February 5, 2004

I don't think parking coordinates are spoilers in the true sense of the word. I would certainly not delete a log just because they were included.

However, if the cache owner asks you to remove them from your log, I would respect their wishes and remove them. Whether I agree with their reasoning or not, something as benign as this is not worth a confrontation over.

3.1k · February 5, 2004

Well if the owner thinks it's a spoiler, then it is. Only recourse is either to try for the cache or not.

6.4k · February 5, 2004

The problem (if it's REALLY a problem) is, the cache owner can not edit out spoilers in a log. If something is posted that he considers a spoiler, be it parking coords, a description of the cache container, hiding style, whatever, he can't edit it. There are only 2 choices the owner has. The owner can email the hider, and possibly wait several days or never for the finder to edit the log. Meanwhile, the "spoiler" info is there for all to see, in effect ruining the cache experience the hider intended. Or he can delete the log as soon as he gets the notification, and then ask the finder to repost the log without the spoilers. As the cache owner, the second option is the better one if I'm concerned about the experience. Most of the caches I've placed or helped place, I AM concerned about the experience. I have hid 1-2 caches "just because", but most of them have a specific reason for being there. I want the finder to experience something, be it a little known park, a piece of art, or a physical challenge, whatever. I would like the 20th finder to have the same experience as the 1st finder. If that means deleting a log, I will. For the record, in over 2yrs and a total of like 20+ hides, I don't think I've ever had to delete a log for being a spoiler. Just saying I would have no problem doing it if that's what it came down to, to preserve MY cache as I intended it.

Edited February 5, 2004 by Mopar

1.2k · February 5, 2004

Parking Coordinates are not spoilers. If however the owner feels they are a requests you remove them, then by all means remove them but he/she shouldn't delete your find.

I have a feelig the real issue is not that Parking Coords were posted but that you posted parking coords.

3.1k · February 5, 2004

I did post parking coordinates one time when the cache owner emailed me and asked me to remove the coordinates so others wouldn't have it easy. I went back and edited my log. I'm sure he would have deleted it if I hadn't edited it.

6.4k · February 5, 2004

For proper context: http://bcgeocaching.com/modules.php?name=F...viewtopic&t=135
____________

Gorak

I just went and read this thread. Scary as it may be, I agree with J5's stated reasons. Caching for me is about the experience, not the numbers. Most of my hides are the kinds of caches I would like to find. Changing the caching experience of MY cache from what I intended is rude, plain and simple. If I want parking coords on MY cache, I will place them in MY cache description. If I want to suggest the finder parks at a certain place to seek MY cache, and someone else changes that, it's rude. It's no dfferent then someone changing the way my cache is hidden, or moving it to a "better" spot.

February 5, 2004

For proper context: http://bcgeocaching.com/modules.php?name=F...viewtopic&t=135
____________

Gorak

I just went and read this thread. Scary as it may be, I agree with J5's stated reasons. Caching for me is about the experience, not the numbers. Most of my hides are the kinds of caches I would like to find. Changing the caching experience of MY cache from what I intended is rude, plain and simple. If I want parking coords on MY cache, I will place them in MY cache description. If I want to suggest the finder parks at a certain place to seek MY cache, and someone else changes that, it's rude. It's no dfferent then someone changing the way my cache is hidden, or moving it to a "better" spot.

I also read the thread. Bothe sides make some very good points. But reason would dictate that people behave in a civil fasion. Perhaps the finder should encrypt the co-ords. and perhaps the cache owner should not be so quick to delete the finders log, but rather simply ask them to change it. This game does'nt have to be confrontational.

1.8k · February 5, 2004

We live on a street with a cul-de-sac. On the other side is a park with a lake, playground, etc. and myself and another person have hidden caches nearby. The people that live on this street, DO NOT want people parking their cars at the end of this street, which haapens to be very close to a cache. Although not a spoiler, if someone were to post parking coords for this cul-de-sac, I would ask them to be removed. Yes, chances are that people will find this street and park there anyway, however, they could just as easily park somewhere else which is what we would prefer. Because of the park and lake, we get far too many people parking their cars in front of our homes anyway so adding parking coords would not be welcome.

6.5k · February 5, 2004

1) Are parking coordinates a 'spoiler'?

Yes. They can/do give away something that makes the cache easier to find, thus changing it. But in the scope of things parking coords. are usually not that harmful, and I personally would probably not bother with them. Pictures, and concise descriptions of the cache's actual location are of more concern to me.

2) Is it right to delete a found it log, even if encrypted, that mentions parking coordinates?

Yes. If the owner feels the log contains something that should not be there, they should delete it. I would hope that the fact that parking coords. are not wanted would be listed on the page somewhere, so its not unexspected when logs containing them are deleted.

Gorak, thanks for the link, it was enlightening reading. :blink:

February 5, 2004

I usually ignore the parking coord's unless the owner (or a finder) notes that there are parking restrictions.

I'll often circle the area and pick a parking site.

Of course my choice always takes me through a swamp or requires scaling a sheer cliff face.

1.8k · February 5, 2004

For proper context: http://bcgeocaching.com/modules.php?name=F...viewtopic&t=135
____________

Gorak

My goodness, how those Canadians like to mix it up ... hehehe.

February 5, 2004

I think that finders shouldn't ruin a cache for the hider by posting information/spoilers that the hider didn't intend to include.

I personally had a cache with specific parking coordinates that were intended to bring a cacher to a very cool area that was not far from the cache location. I was a bit irritated when someone posted that there was a cul-de-sac within a few hundred feet of the cache. By doing that people wouldn't be doing the cache as I intended it to be done.

If I knew then what I knew now I would probable set up the cache a bit differently. But, live and learn.

There is my opinion, such as it is.

Happy caching and stuff! :blink:

4k · February 5, 2004

For proper context: http://bcgeocaching.com/modules.php?name=F...viewtopic&t=135
____________

Gorak

My goodness, how those Canadians like to mix it up ... hehehe.

Yeah, after reading that, I'm not so sure I miss J5 afterall! :blink:

9.4k · February 5, 2004

First, just above logs on every cache page it says this:

Logged Visits (xx total. Visit the Gallery)
Warning. Spoilers may be included in the descriptions or links.

Cache find counts are based on the last time the page generated.

I prefer finding a parking spot right away so I can get out of the car and start hunting for the cache. My cache hunt doesn't start until I park somewhere. If the cache description states that finding a parking space is part of the challenge, then so be it. That would make posting those coords (or a description) a spoiler. Spoilers are supposedly in the logs anyway, but if the cache owner doesn't want them posted, so be it! It is his cache, he decides what information he wants available in the spoilers section.

On one of my own caches, I put this in:

There are several access points to the trail from Ventana Ranch. You decide which one is the best. There is a parking lot available at the soccer fields to the south, but it is not necessarily the closest location.

I have had some people log that they parked within 100 yards of the cache. So what? Those people don't get to enjoy walking 1/2 mile from my suggested parking location to the cache.

That said, I enjoy 4x4 caches where I drive all over sandy arroyos and rocky trails circling around trying to find a "better way in". I don't enjoy circling a neighborhood trying to find access to some out-of-the-way park. Perception makes a difference (one is recreational driving, the other is called "lost")

1.6k · February 5, 2004

1) It's the closest LEGAL place to park, and it's about .5-.7 to the cache from there. At least one finder has parked illegally, on the side of of highway, 500ft away. If THOSE parking coords were posted, she would not be happy.

2) If he states in the cache description not to post parking coords for his cache, and you do, you should expect it to be deleted.

1) No issue there. It would be potentially dangerous to leave those specific coordinates for others to access.

2) That's not what suggested in the case I was referring to. It was simply put that a log would be deleted.

As I said myself: I agree with the general sentiment expressed, which is that if presented with some reason to encrypt or remove the coordinates, I would.

6.4k · February 5, 2004

.

2) That's not what suggested in the case I was referring to. It was simply put that a log would be deleted.

As I said myself: I agree with the general sentiment expressed, which is that if presented with some reason to encrypt or remove the coordinates, I would.

Zuuk, Sorry, but until I went and read Gorak's link, I assumed (silly me, I know!) from your initial post that the quote you posted came from a cache description, not a thread on another website. I still stand by "it's the cache owner's decision how much of a spoiler to allow on his cache", but if this info is not part of the hider's description, it does temper my feelings slightly. Your initial post made it sound like we were talking about posting parking coords on a cache where the owner had asked it not be done.

February 5, 2004

Posting additional parking coordinates however, undermines my efforts and encourages others to follow suit, thereby changing the intended cache experience. In essence, this can only be defined as a spoiler. For this reason, I do feel that it is rude to post additional coordinates and I would not hesitate to delete any logs on my cache pages where the cacher has listed additional coordinates.

A geocacher has stated that they would DELETE found it logs from their caches if they contained parking coordinates, or alternate parking coordinates to those listed on the cache.

They have a very broad definition of what a 'spoiler' is.

They asked this question in response to a log I made on a different geocacher's cache:

Would this be a spoiler or is it just rude?

I would like some feedback from other cachers (in other areas) for the following:

1) Are parking coordinates a 'spoiler'?

2) Is it right to delete a found it log, even if encrypted, that mentions parking coordinates?

Thank you.

Why has this been brought up here? Why did you not just continue the discussion where it originally was? Unless you were banned from the BCGA forums?

6.4k · February 5, 2004

Why has this been brought up here? Why did you not just continue the discussion where it originally was? Unless you were banned from the BCGA forums?

Seems like a valid general geocaching-related topic, and the topic starter did not mention any specific cache or hider by name. And people wonder why the rest of the world ....................

2.1k · February 5, 2004

So, my $4.50... (no spoiler's below):

First, parking coordinates in the log are stupid to delete a log over. If you're reading through the logs, then you were searching for more information on the cache. If it changes the "caching experience", then that's what you were aiming to do anyways. Unless every log says "TNLNSL", then anyone worried about "a change in their intentions when they hid the cache" should be doing a lot more deleting than just for parking coordinates. Besides, having the coordinates in the log doesn't spoil anything. Putting those coordinates into your favorite mapping program to overlay on the road system is what spoils "the hider's intentions".

The only problem here is that the cache owner does not have control over what the seeker is doing (using alternate parking coordinates, using their own brain and seeing a closer side-street, etc). They only have a minute control over what a finder has done (aided and abetted via info in their log).

If you don't want people to put more into their logs than TNLNSL, you had better be really explicit. There are plenty of great caches in Boston where the hider has done something semi-extraordinary in hiding the cache and the mystery of that hide has been preserved by every logger after that. There are others where the fifth log pretty much gives it away to anyone who has been to the cache site before. Big deal.

They write books that explain away who Mona Lisa was and what Andy Warhol was trying to say by painting Campbell's soup cans. Some people buy these books because they want to just "get it" about art. Others attempt to view art completely devoid of any critiques and explanations so that they get their own unfiltered interpretation of the painter's statement. Give up the ghost, Rembrandt, you did all you could. It's up to the finder of your cache to determine what experience they specifically want to glean from it.

1.6k · February 5, 2004

Thank you everyone for your responses, it has been helpful.

so much depends

upon

a camo

lock & lock

glazed with rain

water

beside the old

tree stump

Parking Coordinates A 'spoiler'?

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