secret guildlines

5.3k · March 20, 2003

If you want to post new cache, there are guildine that are not list. These are ones you find out about after you have hidden a cache and and then tried to post it. When you bring this to the ateention of those in charge the reply is that the guidlines url does not get updated as changes are made. To me if it is not listed, is not a guildline.

March 20, 2003

is to either go by whatever guidelines are being used at the moment,,,,or don't use this web-site. It does belong to someone, apparently other than yourself. There have also been many threads about this subject recently. Nobody is forcing you to use this site. Most people don't have any problems in placing a cache, so perhaps you haven't given them the proper info yet, or there may be something either your doing or not doing properly. Instead of biting the hands of those involved....simply ask why and correct the problem.

We're going on a treasure hunt...we're not quite sure just where...but with our trusty GPS, we'll find a cache stashed there!!

By Daughter Cheryl

March 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Johnnyvegas:
If you want to post new cache, there are guildine that are not list. These are ones you find out about after you have hidden a cache and and then tried to post it. When you bring this to the ateention of those in charge the reply is that the guidlines url does not get updated as changes are made. To me if it is not listed, is not a guildline.

I am still wandering what a "guildline" is?

I remember watching Dune and they had the "guild" and I guess it has to do with that...

--majicman

1.4k · March 20, 2003

It's been stated here and in other discussions that updated guidelines do exist. Why are they not posted on the site?

Perhaps if they were posted, the admin/approvers job would be much, much easier and they wouldn't be subjected to all this unhappiness and confusion. I don't see why the reluctance in putting the updated guidelines on the site.

If the rules (guidelines, whatever) are clear, there would be no need to discuss this any longer.

-----

March 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jomarac5:
It's been stated here and in other discussions that updated guidelines do exist. Why are they not posted on the site?

Because the site is currently being redesigned (something that has also been stated in discussions), and the 'updated guidelines' are coming?

Ron/yumitori

1.1k · March 20, 2003

There are no secret guidelines that I'm aware of. There may be some interpretations that may not be written in stone, but as far as I know there isn't anything pending that needs to be added to the guidelines.

It would be helpful if you posted the cache listing that was outright refused. If an approver was just seeking more info before approving a cache, please be patient and respond to their questions.

Thanks.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

1.4k · March 20, 2003

quote:
yumitori wrote:
Because the site is currently being redesigned (something that has also been stated in discussions), and the 'updated guidelines' are coming?

The 'new' site will not be ready for a couple of months. Adding the updated guidelines to the existing guidelines page would only take a matter of minutes.

Seems to me that if something that only takes a few minutes to accomplish could make things a lot better, it should be done.

-----

9.4k · March 20, 2003

Copy and paste your cache description here so we can all see.

--------------------------------------------

This signature line intentionally left blank

March 20, 2003

Then post your cache description so that we can comment in an informed manner. I have never had a problem with getting a cache approved. So many people want to push the envelope and make the game something that it isn't. That's why they have problems having caches approved.

_________________________________________________________

On the other hand, you have different fingers.

March 20, 2003

. . . gosh, Johnny, with all the trouble you're having with the approvers, how'd you get six caches approved in the past 20 days? And four in February and five in January? Those mean ole approvers sure are giving you a hard time with their secret guildlines and all.

24.7k · March 20, 2003

I don't know one way or the other how often the guidlines page gets updated, but that is all we have to work with.

Especially some of us who push the boundaries.

Wherever you go there you are.

9.4k · March 20, 2003

I hate it when there's a line to get into the guild

Rock On!

1.6k · March 20, 2003

This whole topic is freakin bee ess, it keeps coming up, and is drivin me flukin insane...

There is no dadgum conspiracy, no special deals, no partiality, and what's more- who gives a rats butt... well, obviously some do, but this is just the same topic with the same posters- no offence to anyone in particular- I have even cached with 'cache police detective finder-outer sargeant turned corporal general commander geocache deity'

phew, are we done yet?

Why don't people post their caches IN DETAIL that have been turned down (after communicating with the approver at least once)... I haven't seen that happen very much

bvasilbnasjvnasvnjasicjnsIVNJSDVASVJKJNSDVUINHI

AARGH

zuuk

March 20, 2003

IT'S THE ILLUMINATI!!

And the dragon comes in the NNIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHH!!

5.3k · March 20, 2003

The problem I have with the system is this, I read the guidelines and posted two Temporary caches for a seminar. I was told by the powers that be that temporary caches are not allowed.

They sent me a link to read re-guidelines. There was noting posted about this on the web site. It's one thing to have a cache refused because you did not follow a LISTED GUIDELINE. When you take the time to find a spot, put the cache together and then go back and place it, then submit the cache. THEN you have it Turned dowm because of some guideline that is not posted.Thats like getting a speeding ticket where there is no posted limit to read, how are you to know what is allowed if you are not given the opertunity to read the rules. What does it take to update what is the most important information

"GuidelineS".

1.6k · March 20, 2003

Straight off the guidelines in FAQ:

"How long do caches exist?

It all depends on the location of the cache and its impact on the environment and the surrounding areas. Caches could be permanent, or temporary."

Sounds like you needed the cache posted as either an event cache, or need to advise the approver just what the intent is.

Hope this helps.

5.3k · March 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by canadazuuk:
Straight off the guidelines in FAQ:

"How long do caches exist?

It all depends on the location of the cache and its impact on the environment and the surrounding areas. Caches could be permanent, or temporary."

Sounds like you needed the cache posted as either an event cache, or need to advise the approver just what the intent is.

Hope this helps.

In the submission it was mentioned it would be for a geocaching seminar. THe best way to bring

people into geocaching is to have other geocachers take them through a short course in which they may learn how to find a cache on thier own.THe entire course I set is about two miles long. One reason I wanted it posted was so that I could hand out printouts of the geocahing.com pages. I do have it listed on the Navicache.com

site. Buy the way. I mentioned to the approver that I would keep the caches permanent.

1.4k · March 21, 2003

quote:
Jonnyvegas wrote:
The problem I have with the system is this, I read the guidelines and posted two Temporary caches for a seminar. I was told by the powers that be that temporary caches are not allowed.

You see, this is where the problem lies. It's not about bashing anyone, it's simply about having clear and concise guidelines.

Jonnyvegas placed a cache that apparently conformed to the posted guidelines but was told that temporary caches are not acceptable. I just read the guidelines and nowhere in them does it say that temporary caches are not allowed. Why is it so hard to understand why he's confused and frustrated?

The approvers are obviously using different guidelines than those who are placing the caches, so where are they? Why is it so difficult to place them on the site?

Common sense dictates that if the parameters are not clearly defined and openly posted that people are going to constantly be stepping over them.

Why not just post the guidelines that the approvers are using and everyone will know where they stand.

Those who disagree with the rules simply don't have to post caches. And this discussion can come to an end.

-----

1.4k · March 21, 2003

quote:
Canadazuuk wrote:
No offence to anyone in particular- I have even cached with 'cache police detective finder-outer sargeant turned corporal general commander geocache deity'

Zuuk, are you off of your medication again?

-----

6.4k · March 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Johnnyvegas:
The problem I have with the system is this, I read the guidelines and posted two Temporary caches for a seminar. I was told by the powers that be that temporary caches are not allowed.

Wouldn't that also fall under Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit if these caches were placed for a seminar?

There ARE alot of guidelines that have been posted in the forums, and are not on that page. I have asked why before and not received a real answer. Sure, all the forum regulars know most of the guidelines listed there for virtuals also apply now to physical caches too (thats where you will find the part about temp caches, as well as caches being .1 miles apart), but only a very small group read every thread here, every day. I also don't see why someone can't take 3 minutes to update the guideline page. It seems to me it would be time well spent. Also make the guidelines easier to find, right now most people don't see them until they have already hid a cache, and are ready to submit it.

I understand the website is undergoing a redesign, and hopefully these things will be addressed on the new site, but they are really simple things to add now to the current site. With all the complaining I've seen about it over the last 3 months, I can only imagine it's gonne get alot worse as more geocachers wake up from a long cold winter and start placing caches.

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

March 21, 2003

I think the section in the FAQ referring to "temporary" caches is being misread (or at least misunderstood). If you read the entire paragraph, the thinking is that a cache may indeed turn out to be temporary if it begins to affect the environment or if it's plundered, but this section does not endorse the placement of intentionally temporary caches which might be here today and gone tomorrow.

Throughout the geocaching.com site (over and over, in fact), we read that geocaching is a community effort. Temporary caches open to only a few people (such as birthday party caches) or caches that expire after a brief period of time (such as christmas light caches) tend to squander geocaching's site and approver resources to benefit a few instead of the entire geocaching community. (Even with these examples, some accomodations have been made -- for example, christmas light virtuals that feature annual, extraordinary displays have been approved -- please - I'm begging - let's not get into christmas light caches - it was just an example).

Event caches (featuring activities that promote geocaching) are the only "temporary" caches currently permitted. I don't know anything about Johnny's seminar, but just for the sake of discussion, let's say that he and his local caching group planned an educational seminar about geocaching which was open to the public. Let's say that they planned to place some temporary caches that day for the group to practice finding. That would easily fit under the event cache type. As mentioned by someone else, other types of seminars might be commercial endeavors which are not permitted.

Finally, I think Jeremy envisions a very flexible site which embraces as many aspects of geocaching as possible, with as few constricting rules as possible. Easy to say, but difficult to do! Unless you're careful you will either have chaos or a rulebook 10" thick. It's quite a balancing act that is, amazingly, pretty successful.

5.3k · March 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:

quote:
Originally posted by Johnnyvegas:
The problem I have with the system is this, I read the guidelines and posted two Temporary caches for a seminar. I was told by the powers that be that temporary caches are not allowed.

Wouldn't that also fall under _Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit _ if these caches were placed for a seminar?

There ARE alot of guidelines that have been posted in the forums, and are not on that page. I have asked why before and not received a real answer. Sure, all the forum regulars know most of the guidelines listed there for virtuals also apply now to physical caches too (thats where you will find the part about temp caches, as well as caches being .1 miles apart), but only a very small group read every thread here, every day. I also don't see why someone can't take 3 minutes to update the guideline page. It seems to me it would be time well spent. Also make the guidelines easier to find, right now most people don't see them until they have already hid a cache, and are ready to submit it.

I understand the website is undergoing a redesign, and hopefully these things will be addressed on the new site, but they are really simple things to add now to the current site. With all the complaining I've seen about it over the last 3 months, I can only imagine it's gonne get alot worse as more geocachers wake up from a long cold winter and start placing caches.

+ _Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon. _

This isa FREE seminar, no one is making any money with it. This is set to bring people whe already own GPSr's in the the hobby of geocaching, believe it or not, there are quite a few people who own them that do not use them very much. Some because they do not know how to use them. What better way to learn how to use a GPS than geocaching.

March 21, 2003

The guidelines cannot possibility cover every situation that may occur. If you use some common sense then there shouldn't be any problem.

I don't see the problem here, other that someone wants to whine.

grow up would ya!

5.3k · March 21, 2003

Well thanks to Jeremy Irish, my Cache Tanks A Lot has been unarchived, THanks Jeremy. By the way the cache was already named Tanks a Lot.

March 21, 2003

Johnny, I think your idea sounds great. Why not post it as a single event cache instead of several temporary caches?

When you post an event cache, it also shows up on the geocaching calendar, which might be helpful in getting the word out, too.

6.4k · March 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by honeychile:
Johnny, I think your idea sounds great. Why not post it as a single event cache instead of several temporary caches?

When you post an event cache, it also shows up on the geocaching calendar, which might be helpful in getting the word out, too.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/52813_3100.gif

The event is a great idea, but since it seems to be geared to nongeocachers, why not just make a dummy cache page and print that out to give to the participants? If the caches are just training caches for the seminar anyway, not the general geocaching population, this seems like the best solution.

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

5.3k · March 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by rayt333:
The guidelines cannot possibility cover every situation that may occur. If you use some someone wants to whine.

common sense then there shouldn't be any problem.

I don't see the problem here, other that grow up would ya!

Why would it be called a "whine" to point out a problem with the system. If any one needs to grow up it would yould, Then again, you may be a troll.

5.3k · March 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:

quote:
Originally posted by honeychile:
Johnny, I think your idea sounds great. Why not post it as a single event cache instead of several temporary caches?

When you post an event cache, it also shows up on the geocaching calendar, which might be helpful in getting the word out, too.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/52813_3100.gif

The event is a great idea, but since it seems to be geared to nongeocachers, why not just make a dummy cache page and print that out to give to the participants? If the caches are just training caches for the seminar anyway, not the general geocaching population, this seems like the best solution.

+ _Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon. _

I thought of that, but by posting them on the web site if the person wants to set up an account and start geocaching, they will have a few to start with.

There are close enough to maintain, so for me this is not an issue. I try to caheck all my caches on a reulaur basis, every four to six weeks.

8.9k · March 21, 2003

I see two possible ways of working within the system:

A) Set up the seminar as an event cache. Make dummy cache pages for all of the participants, and they can log multiple finds on the event cache page for the temporary caches. I've done that, and no one - including TPTB - had any problems with that scenario.

Set up the seminar as an event cache - but create several PERMANENT caches. If they're worthy enough for people to count them in their find count as new users, why not just leave them up as permanent caches.

Chicago's most recent event was just like that. The event planners placed 20 brand new permament caches within a 10 mile radius. Very cool for those close like me, and for those FAR away like Jeepster.

That being said, I do agree with what started this thread. There are a couple guidelines that have gone into place after the guidelines were written (temporary moratorium on locationless, restricted permission within 0.10 miles, clear statements on temporary caches). I think it can only help the admins cause that if there becomes a new standard (not just a recent and capricious interpretation) for cache approval, this should be posted.

If you're going to post guidelines, post the best ones possible. Sure make them purposefully vague so that you don't have to go back and change them, but still post them.

To the best of my knowledge (others will help, I'm sure) these are the guidelines that have been implemented recently that do not appear on the requirements page for physical (traditional) caches:

Caches are requested to be more than 0.10 miles from an existing cache (both traditional and virtual). Certain extenuating circumstances may apply, but a dialog will need to be opened with a cache approver
Traditional caches of a temporary nature will not be approved.

And, of course, the guidelines and checklist for Locationless Caches is extensive, but no where on the page does it indicate that there's a temporary moratorium on approval of new locationless caches.

It doesn't seem that adding these statements to the requirements page would be that cumbersome or limiting for future interpretations.

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

1.1k · March 21, 2003

You make a good point that the permanence of caches were not clear enough. As a result I have added a section on Cache permanence that indicates that temporary caches will not be approved.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

8.9k · March 21, 2003

Cool! Very nice wording as well.

The udpated page for those who don't have the URL handy.

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

1.4k · March 21, 2003

quote:
Jeremy wrote:
You make a good point that the permanence of caches were not clear enough. As a result I have added a section on Cache permanence that indicates that temporary caches will not be approved.

So where is it? I looked on the guidelines page and on the FAQ and didn't see it there.

The repeated argument that all the updated guidelines have been discussed in the forums is certainly not valid. Why should someone have to go through all the past forums to learn what is and is not acceptable. They need to be posted in one location.

C'mon you guys, make it easy for yourselves and others -- give us some straight answers and post the guidelines.

-----

24.7k · March 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jomarac5:
So where is it? I looked on the guidelines page and on the FAQ and didn't see it there.

If you didn't see it, check out the Markwell link in the post above yours.

Wherever you go there you are.

1.4k · March 21, 2003

quote:
Renegade Knight wrote
If you didn't see it, check out the Markwell link in the post above yours.

Where is this page accessed from? I looked on both the Hide and Seek page and the main page but couldn't find a link.

-----

March 21, 2003

But on the "Report a New Cache" http://www.geocaching.com/hide/report.asp there is a link on "the guidelines" which go to the updated page.

You can also get to it from http://www.geocaching.com/hideseek/ there click on a quick tutorial which goes to http://www.geocaching.com/articles/making.asp then click on "review the guidelines"

1.1k · March 21, 2003

It is on the online form for reporting a cache, but I also added a link on the "hide and seek a cache" page.

It is also at the top of the Frequently Asked Questions page as bullet point 4 as it has been for some time:

Does it meet requirements to be listed on the site? - Make sure to review the guidelines for listing a geocache on this web site during your research.

If there is anywhere you can't find it and it should be there, let me know and I will add it. I want to make sure that the guidelines are easy to find and understand.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

6.5k · March 21, 2003

Hey Jeremy,

Does this mean moving caches of any sort will no longer be approved??

quote:
However, when you report a cache on the web site, geocachers should (and will) expect the cache to be there for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move, or temporary caches (ex: Caches hidden for events) will not be approved. If you wish to hide caches for an event, bring printouts to the event and hand them out there.

1.1k · March 21, 2003

I don't think there is a need for clarification. Moving caches will no longer be approved.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

3k · March 21, 2003

Just submit the cache in the normal way and archive it whenever it pleases you, the cache owner.

1.4k · March 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):
You make a good point that the permanence of caches were not clear enough. As a result I have added a section on Cache permanence that indicates that temporary caches will not be approved.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

Thanks, Jeremy! The changes to the Guidelines page will be very helpful.

There was a discussion in another thread about microcaches without logbooks no longer being approved. I don't see this listed on the guidelines page.

8.9k · March 21, 2003

Ah, yes. I knew someone would catch something I forgot.

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

March 21, 2003

Perhaps it should be rephrased or clarified in the guidelines linked above, but the FAQs do say

quote:
A cache can come in many forms but the first item should always be the logbook. In its simplest form a cache can be just a logbook and nothing else. The logbook contains information from the founder of the cache and notes from the cache's visitors. The logbook can contain much valuable, rewarding, and entertaining information. A logbook might contain information about nearby attractions, coordinates to other unpublished caches, and even jokes written by visitors. If you get some information from a logbook you should give some back. At the very least you can leave the date and time you visited the cache.

~erik~

March 23, 2003

A point of interest when it comes to baching your nearest approver.....Some of us are sitting literally thousands of miles from caches hidden in our designated approver area (due to the lack of volunteers to help). We may or may not know the area first hand,and we may or may not know exactly what your plan is. Therefore we may end up asking what you think are superfulous questions. Our only interest is in maintaining a safe family oriented sport that does not infringe on any organization's rules or wishes.

Speaking of rules, geocaching is still a very young sport. As new cachers come on scene we constantly see newer and more "creative" interpretations of the rules. Some hidey-hole ideas are concepts we had never thought of before. At times like these the approvers chat amongst themselves and try to make a decision that will be consistant for all players. Of course a new decision means a new rule and often leaves caches out there that are being "grandfathered" along until they meet their natural demise.

Unfortunately due to a shortage of robots, Jeremy has graciously accepted the free help from some of us who really care about maintaining quality and public acceptance of the sport. However since we are only human we might possibly make a mistake here and there. If you will just e-mail us (in a nice tone of voice) with questions and concerns we will gladly answer.

None of us are out to pick on anyone of US! We are ALL Geocachers, so how about if we try to play the game that way?

If at anytime you want to help the situation please feel free to become a volunteer in your neck of the woods!

~ncflyers~(Admin

"Edison Medicine": Anything that brightens your day is a good thing!

6.5k · March 23, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ncflyers:
A point of interest when it comes to baching your nearest approver.....Some of us are sitting literally thousands of miles from caches hidden in our designated approver area (due to the lack of volunteers to help).

So work load is not an overburden, but there are areas that need approvers??

Also, people currently conplain that the rules are applied differently from approver to approver, right? So how is adding more (how many more? ) going to make that any better?

**** Please note that I DO think 'regional approvers' is a good idea.

5.3k · March 23, 2003

Well, The geocachong seminar went well. Itwould appear that we will have around 5 new cachers joining our ranks. One of them has already set up an account. I also had some boy scouts do the course. Thay where are their way to a BoyScout function to talk up Geocaching to the boy scouts. They had one scout master with them who had as much fun as the kids. He was talking of buying a new GPS, he was using a Magellan 300 or 310, I forgot which one but it was an old one. I am going to offer another semeinar in a couple of months, first I need time to look for some caches.

Johnny Vegas

1.4k · March 24, 2003

quote:
Johnnyvegas wrote:
Well, The geocaching seminar went well.

Glad to hear that your event was a success.

Nice to hear about the scouts involvement as well. There's a couple scout groups in our area that are caching now.

My son's Scout troop recently bought a couple of yellow eTrex's and have started using them on their hikes. I've spoken with the leaders about a number of caches that are in nearby wilderness areas and they're going to start taking weekend hikes to find them. They'll also be placing some caches of their own for the scouts to find -- including a final cache with their hiking badges in it. Should be fun.

-----

secret guildlines

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