Geocachers vs Cavers....continued?

[+BadAndy]

I hate to revive a dead horse but....I've spent most of the last 2 days reading posts on geocaching boards, and caving boards regarding the placement of caches at or near caves. Geocachers think it's cool...cavers don't. The bottom line is that cavers don't trust the masses that might stumble across a caves coords to treat the cave with the respect it is due, and cachers don't like the idea of cavers claiming caves as their own private playgrounds. I can see both points. As an avid cacher, I have to agree that caves on public lands belong to us all. As a co-owner of the caves...I'd hate to see them plundered like a cache in central park. My interest in the subject came about because I actually found a cave last weekend, that I'm certain has been unknown until sunday afternoon. Isn't there a compromise that can be reached, allowing responsible cachers to enjoy the sport without raising the ire of the local grotto?

[+SamLowrey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BadAndy:

I hate to revive a dead horse but....I've spent most of the last 2 days reading posts on geocaching boards, and caving boards regarding the placement of caches at or near caves. Geocachers think it's cool...cavers don't. The bottom line is that cavers don't trust the masses that might stumble across a caves coords to treat the cave with the respect it is due, and cachers don't like the idea of cavers claiming caves as their own private playgrounds. I can see both points. As an avid cacher, I have to agree that caves on public lands belong to us all. As a co-owner of the caves...I'd hate to see them plundered like a cache in central park. My interest in the subject came about because I actually found a cave last weekend, that I'm certain has been unknown until sunday afternoon. Isn't there a compromise that can be reached, allowing responsible cachers to enjoy the sport without raising the ire of the local grotto?

---

 

We all want to be privy to things others aren't and probably for good reason. Usually the worst part of anything public (parks, land, places) is the public

 

Very cool about the cave, btw.

[+cachew nut]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BadAndy:

My interest in the subject came about because I actually found a cave last weekend, that I'm certain has been unknown until sunday afternoon. Isn't there a compromise that can be reached, allowing responsible cachers to enjoy the sport without raising the ire of the local grotto?

---

 

Don't share the cave with your local grotto until you get them to agree to name it Geocacher Cave.

[+makaio]

Interesting subject. As a caver from waaay back (although I haven't done it in years) I can tell you the speelunker's motto is "Take only memories, leave only footprints". This stems from the uninitiated cave visitors who can't resist snapping off a stalagtite (which took millions of years to form) for a souvenir, and finding garbage on the cave floor. As a geocacher, I don't consider caches litter, so in that respect, I have no problem if someone plants one near a cave entrance. If a cave is on public property, the cavers really can't demand no caches be placed nearby, but who's to stop them from checking the site periocically and removing any they find hidden there (granted a virtual would still bring folks to the cave).

 

From a safety standpoint, I'd be concerned a geocacher might locate the cache and decide to venture into the cave unprepared and find themselves in deep trouble. It can happen very easily. If you do plant a cache near a cave, please provide some warning on the cache page urging finders not to venture into the cave unless they are experienced cavers or have an experienced guide and all the necessary equipment.

 

-----

Matt

K7MTO

[+ZachMJ2345]

I totally agree... There MUST be a warning. I say this because if I stumbled upon a cache at the entrance to a cave... You're darn right I'd want to explore it! And I have never been in one before... wouldn't have ANY of the right equipment. I would definitely be happy to recieve that warning. I'm fairly sure that a lot of people (like myself) would assume that the cache was there because of the cave... and since that was the case, that the cave was open (and safe) to explore.

 

-Zach

-Team Zen-

[tyerod]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:

I totally agree... There MUST be a warning. I say this because if I stumbled upon a cache at the entrance to a cave... You're darn right I'd want to explore it! And I have never been in one before... wouldn't have ANY of the right equipment. I would definitely be happy to recieve that warning. I'm fairly sure that a lot of people (like myself) would assume that the cache was there because of the cave... and since that was the case, that the cave was open (and safe) to explore.

 

-Zach

-Team Zen-

http://www.mi-geocaching.org/

---

 

You know what happens when you assume. Just because a cave is open does not mean its safe if you are unprepared. It doesn't even mean its safe if you are. A small injury can become a major problem in a cave very quickly. My main concern is someone, or a group of people, finding an open cave and trashing it or passing the location on to others that will. My vote would be to not place caches near caves.

[+ZachMJ2345]

That's exactly my point. Some people don't know the dangers of caves. I am one of them. The thing is... caves are beautiful, they are amazing. There are plenty of other dangerous places that caches are hidden near, it just needs a warning. If someone knows about a little known cave and are willing to share it, that's their business. Just as long as it's not on private property, why not? What makes caves any more off-limits than anyplace else?

 

-Zach

-Team Zen-

[+RJFerret]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BadAndy:

I've spent most of the last 2 days reading posts on geocaching boards, and caving boards regarding the placement of caches at or near caves. Geocachers think it's cool...cavers don't.

---

 

As a cacher, I think it's not a good idea. As a caver, I both like it and dislike it. Your conclusion is flawed.

 

Cavers believe in education. They want visitors to caves, and actively take them (just contact your local grotto), providing their services, equipment and knowledge. This helps protect caves as more people who understand their value won't damage them, pollute, and kill the wildlife.

 

As a cacher, I'm cognizant of the environmental damage potentially caused by caches as well as dangers to cachers seeking my cache. As such, I wouldn't place a cache near a cave system. However I have hunted one!

 

quote:

---

My interest in the subject came about because I actually found a cave last weekend, that I'm certain has been unknown until sunday afternoon.

Isn't there a compromise that can be reached, allowing responsible cachers to enjoy the sport without raising the ire of the local grotto?

---

 

Check with your local grotto (or the land manager), the cave is actually probably known.

 

There is no need for a 'compromise' as the current NSS position is positive regarding caches. The current Federal law denies such at 'significant caves'. Only cachers seem to be trying to re-beat this dead horse.

 

As a cacher, I would encourage you to contact your local grotto, they'd be delighted to confirm the possibility of a new cave and would love to take you exploring/sureying it if it is in fact new. They'll still be glad to join you exploring it even if not. They'd love to hear about geocaching if they already haven't. Cavers are generally also adventurous open-minded folks curious about new things, just like Geocachers.

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

[bmcilvoy]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Zach.

 

"There are plenty of other dangerous places that caches are hidden near, it just needs a warning."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Check out my warnings for the "Are You Experienced?" cache.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=68272

 

Bernie

[+Renegade Knight]

Education only goes so far. We all know CITO, and we all know the gospel according to Tread Lightly. Most of us know not to snap off cave formations. Even those who do it anyway, "know" not too.

 

We are all also supposed to know our limits. It doesn't scare me to explore a cave because I'm not going to rock climb, I'm not going to take a rope to climb down a hole, and I'm not going to do anything in a cave that would require them. As cool as caves are I'm not the guy who will scuba a water filled pasage and shimmy through a dinky little hole only fit for gophers to see the other side.

 

All in all I really don't want to contact my local grotto to explore a cave. This is due to bad experiences all around with the closest grotto club I'm aware of. That and I'm a geocacher. If I really wanted to obsess over all caves everwhere (like I do with geocaches) I'd be a grotto member. Caves for me are only part of a more well rounded world experience. Besides I geocache when my schedule allows. The caving schedule for "bring a non caver day" may not coincide.

 

There are a few easy solutions. The first is to check with the landowner (BLM?). There are caves that are closed part of the year. Odds are they can tell you if the cave is one of them. If it's closed part of the year at best the cache can only be a part time cache.

 

Second if the cave is remote it really takes care of a lot of the riff raff that give groups like Tread Lighly a reason to exist. There are remote caches is SE Idaho that are an easy walk off a maintained gravel road even a Corolla could drive that get 4 visits a year.

 

BTW I'm not aware of a SE Idaho Grotto. Just Boise and Twin, and Possibly Logan. When Red Cave was around I got an email on it from someone in Logan.

[+Renegade Knight]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bmcilvoy:

...Check out my warnings for the "Are You Experienced?" cache...

---

 

Good write up. It gives a clear idea what you are in for. The photo helps too.

[caver_jeffery]

quote:

---

It doesn't scare me to explore a cave because I'm not going to rock climb, I'm not going to take a rope to climb down a hole, and I'm not going to do anything in a cave that would require them. As cool as caves are I'm not the guy who will scuba a water filled pasage and shimmy through a dinky little hole only fit for gophers to see the other side.

---

 

Renegade,

I'm a caver who popped over here after Bad Andy posted on our board. A few years ago, I was with a group of cavers in what would be deemed an "easy" cave. It's pretty much easy-going walking passage. No crawling. No wet stuff. No climbing.

 

At roughly 1/4 mile into this cave one guy in our group twisted his ankle in a hole(we found out later he actually broke it). It took us only 15-20 minutes to hike that far INTO the cave. The trip out was another story. Without the ability to put weight on his foot, it took our team nearly 90 minutes to carry him out. By the time we got out, we were dealing with more than a hurt foot. Hypothermia had set in, and we were looking at a risk of death.

 

Keep in mind, we were cavers, traveling in a group of 4 (the recommended minimum for caving). We were wearing polypro long johns, carrying heat packs, and hauling equipment that would let us carry an moderately injured grown man over uneven terrain. We had people on the surface who knew exactly what cave we were in and at what time to expect a call from us. (If the call was late by 1 hour, then the authorities were to be called.)

 

Everything I mentioned above is standard caving procedure. Not everyone who calls themselve a caver follows these procedures, but then there are exceptions to every rule.

 

One of my biggest concerns about geocaches in or near caves is that some curious, unprepared geocacher will be lured by legitimate curiousity into a cave with a cheap flashlight filled with near-dead batteries. Not understanding the dangers involved in caving can kill a person. And it often does. Every couple of years The National Speleological Society compiles a BOOK of caving-related accidents, rescues, injuries, and deaths. Many reports involve people who were unprepared to be in a cave. In most instances, they lacked the necessary equipment and knowledge needed for caving.

 

Going back to my friend with the bum ankle, let's place him alone at Bad Andy's cave. After hiking back into the cave for 15 minutes (1/4 mile)he breaks his ankle. He's now injured in a cave with an air temp of 45-50F. Hypothermia will probably set in before he can reach the surface, if he can reach the surface.

 

Now, let's suppose he's told his wife what cache he's going after. She isn't even going to start worrying about his delay until after 7+ hours. By the time she gets worried enough to call for help and a search begins, he's probably been dead from hypothermia for hours.

 

Or let's say, he's with a friend who decides to go for help. The same thing happens. He leaves his buddy in the cave. Hikes back to the car, and by the time help arrives, it's too late.

 

Both of these scenerios have occured. No, geocaching wasn't involved. But placing a cache in or near a significant cave increases the chances that it will be.

 

Bad Andy admits to knowing nothing about caves (And I admire the fact that he came to our message board to ask--many wouldn't.). So, unlike the "Are You Experienced?" cache, he would not know what to mention safety-wise in his cache.

 

Yes, some cavers are elitist snobs. Most of us just don't want to be involved in a cave rescue that turns into a body recovery, and that's one of the primary reasons we keep quite about cave locations. I LOVE introducing new people to caves and caving, but I wouldn't tell a novice where to find a cave anymore than I would hand a parachute to a rookie and tell him where to jump. But that's what happens when cave locations are posted on the internet.

 

I'm sure I haven't changed anyone's mind on the subject, but I wanted to challenge the idea that cavers just want to keep the caves to themselves. Our "secrecy" is from a desire to keep both caves and people safe.

[+Searching_ut]

I’ve got to say their caver_Jeffery, I think your attitude shows exactly why so many outside the sport have such a bad view of cavers. Your over dramatization comes across as “elitist, do anything, say anything to further your cause”. I’d have to say you’re stretching it a great deal in portraying the risks of “hypothermia”. While a very real danger to those involved in outdoor activities, it’s also one of the more easy to deal with risks for those who plan and prepare just a little. Even when unprepared, the human body can often survive quite severe conditions for quite some time. How do you explain all those people who survive numerous days in caves, mine accidents etc while soaking wet in just the temperature environment you describe? While I applaud concern for your fellow man, in this case it didn’t come across as such to me.

 

As for your argument in general, as an avid outdoorsman I can tell you it applies to virtually all outdoor away from the city light type activities, many of which are every bit as risky, if not more so than caving. The dangers of animals, weather, falling rocks, avalanches, heatstroke, hypothermia, drowning etc. are very real in the outdoors areas I like to play in. While part of me would love to do everything possible to keep the masses away, I’ve got to be honest and admit to myself they have every bit as much of a right to be there as I do. I guess some just aren’t ethical enough to admit that to themselves. Trying to educate and protect people is noble, educating people to protect the wonders of mother nature is a very worthy cause. Trying to protect that which you want to horde for yourself………

 

Don’t take this as a personal attack. Just my venting on how you came across to me. Elitist foolishness is one of my pet peeves. I’ll admit it may be beneficial for boosting personal egos for those looking to “do the right thing”. It seems to me however to also be one of the reasons we have so much trouble as a society actually accomplishing true protection of the environment. People get to quickly wrapped up in a “cause”, loose perspective, and often do more harm to the cause than good.

[+SamLowrey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by caver_jeffery:

Renegade,

I'm a caver who popped over here after Bad Andy posted on our board. A few years ago, I was with a group of cavers in what would be deemed an "easy" cave. It's pretty much easy-going walking passage. No crawling. No wet stuff. No climbing.

 

At roughly 1/4 mile into this cave

.

.

.

.

---

 

Speaking only for myself, going a 1/4 mile into a cave would not be a consideration along with the other things mentioned ("not going to rock climb, I'm not going to take a rope to climb down a hole, and I'm not going to do anything in a cave that would require them.") Nor would I be going when there was a threat of hypothermia (though I'm sure you are going to tell me about the temperature of caves being colder, etc....I'm in Texas and hypothermia usually isn't a concern. )

 

That is just common sense to me.

 

In fact, I don't think I would go much further than when I could no longer see the entrance!.

[+seneca]

Well said Searching_ut. Whether or not caver_jeffrey intended it, I had exactly the same impression of his post that you did.

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

[+nincehelser]

quote:

---

Originally posted by seneca:

Well said Searching_ut. Whether or not caver_jeffrey intended it, I had exactly the same impression of his post that you did.

---

 

(*sigh*) this is why caving and geocaching will remain so far apart. Sure, there are danagers in any outdoor sport, but those same dangers take on bizzare and unfamiliar dimensions underground. What is easily remedied above-ground becomes life-threatening underneath.

 

You can poo-poo hypothermia all you want. The fact is that it happens, and even experienced cavers fall victim to it...especially when they are injured and/or exhausted. People drown when passages are flooded by sudden storms. Some are overcome by pockets of CO2.

 

Call the post, "Elite" if you want, but it's accurate. The "elite" here are the geocachers here who vainly think they can handle anything.

 

You don't want to cave with such people, because they're the ones most likely you'll need to drag out.

 

George

[+Pat Patterson]

I find this irritating, Cavers <and other eLiTiSt sports> seem to think they better than the rest and only They can handle the problems. Every sport I do has the probability that it will kill me if I leave comon sence at home. The primary rule is don't go alone, preferable a group of 4 so you can split into 2's if needed. I dive and if I have a problem survival is mesured in seconds. I canoe in the winter, if I fall in survival is mesured in minuets. If I go into a cave or mine shaft in the summer whearing a t-shirt and shorts I'm going to have a problem but I also will have the same or worse problems if I geocache here in febuary. But I can and do without problems cause I use common sence and can recognise hypo and hyper thermia. If you stay within your limits you will be fine for all you do. 54 deg f is not instant death I regularly work and live near 0 F. Staying dry will postpone death for a long time. The only real danger is the cave getting crouded.

 

btw a funny about life. It's terminal your ARE going to die. It just a matter of when.

 

If your not living on the edge, your taking up too much space! so get off!

 

Pat Patterson

Garmin 12XL

82CJ7 & 79F250

Herd of Turtles 4x4 club

[+seneca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by nincehelser:

Call the post, "Elite" if you want, but it's accurate. The "elite" here are the geocachers here who vainly think they can handle anything.

---

 

Such geocachers may be stupid, but they are certainly not "elitist". In fact geocaching is one of the most non-elitist activities I have come across, mainly because of the willingness and ability of participants to share information with absolutely anyone who is interested. This is something the caving community is not prepared to do, and the real reason why "caving and geocaching will remain so far apart".

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Some of these discussions bring out a point ,that when we were youngsters and not so wise we all use to do and have grown out of I hope.

 

I got somthing you don't have.....and I am not gonna share it with you.nanny nanny bo bo

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

TAKE PRIDE IN AMERICA

 

http://www.doi.gov/news/front_current.html

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/

Initial Points Page

http://www.True-Meridiansubscribe@yahoogroups.com

[+Renegade Knight]

caver_jeffery

 

You have a good post and keep it on an even keel. Let me follow up with short story of my own.

 

There was a geocache in a spot I've always wanted to get to. It was rated 5 for terrain meaning you need special equipment. Ideally a canoe. But we knew it could be hiked. My friends and I (Three of us went) knew how to get there and knew what it would take.

 

Fate caught up with us. Just as if you walk you will eventually trip, time and chance catches us all. Today was the day that one of use slipped on the rocks and landed just right. My friend broke his ribs. It was a long hike out and the rock hopping we needed to do to get in was much worse on the way out.

 

We were doing someting we have done for many years. But fate happens.

 

The point is this. You can get hurt anywere at anytime for any reason. You can't even stay home to avoid it because your bathroom is more likly than any other spot on the planet to cause you an injury. Knowing your limits and bringing the right equipment or not exceeding your equipments limitations just skews the odds on your side.

 

A cave is only one of the locations you can hurt yourself at. One of thousands. Sure safety is a concern. But no more than fishing on a lake. You are eitheir going to play it safe or you are not. Fishing, Caving, or Geocaching odds are you will follow your own code when it comes to safety.

 

All you can do is ask yourself "Is this area worthy of showing other people, and do I want too?" If it is and you do then you warn them and late fate decide the rest.

 

I don't think anybody has an issue posting a link on a cache page to the local grotto club. They are a good place to garner the safety rules and equipment you will need to be ready.

[+Quest Master]

BadAndy,

 

You're doing the right thing by thinking this thing thorough and soliciting opionions before placing a cache at a potentially sensitive site such as this. I have been caught up in this debate before. I wonder if you saw this one during your research of these forums:

 

http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=4016058331&m=7996066051

 

The fallout from this was that the caver who threatened to prosecute a geocacher for putting a cache at a cave was forced to resign from one of the local cave conservation groups for overreacting and acting like an a$$.

 

Cavers are generally good people but very often they get carried away with their secrecy and elitism. I have observed that the politics within the caving community can get quite complicated at times.

 

It is my personal opinion that caves are generally not suitable for geocaching. GPS doesn't work underground and the entrance to a cave probably isn't going to be all that interesting to somebody who isn't going to explore it. I think that safety and conservation concerns are very valid here because caves are almost always more dangerous than they look and much more fragile than they appear. The majority of caves in the area where I live are pretty much trashed by inconsiderate persons.

 

I'm not going to say that this place is a good spot for a cache or not. It's sounds like it could be exactly the kind of cache I would like to hunt. Each cache must live or die on its own merits. I think it would be a good idea to consult with the local grotto but I wouldn't make any promises not to put a cache there. It is your right to publish the coordinates. It's up to them to convince you that it's not a good idea.

 

Johnny

[+nincehelser]

quote:

---

Originally posted by seneca:

This is something the caving community is not prepared to do, and the real reason why "caving and geocaching will remain so far apart".

---

 

Right. Just because they won't tell you where the caves are.

 

Check into a grotto, and check your attitude at the door. You'll be caving in no time.

 

George

[+seneca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by nincehelser:

quote:

---

Originally posted by seneca:

This is something the caving community is not prepared to do, and the real reason why "caving and geocaching will remain so far apart".

---

 

Right. Just because they won't tell you where the caves are.

---

 

... and because they get upset when Geocachers do. (which is what we do when we place a cache in or near a cave).

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

[+RJFerret]

Wow!

 

I hate to correct anyone, but 'caver_jeffery' was NOT being overly dramatic or exaggerating.

 

Sure, I realize that my statement just closed some minds, but it's true. The threshold from minor injury or problem to fatality in caving is far lower than most evidentally realize.

 

Having read the caving accident reports, having been included in it, and having caved my entire life--I know it's true.

 

YES, other activities have their dangers. The difference is the ability to rescue/recover from them.

 

If you are hiking, you have to have a pretty significant injury to not be able to return.

 

If you are diving, time becomes a factor due to temperature. Similarly, hiking in extreme climes offers the same issue.

 

Now imagine if you were hiking at night in an extreme climate.

 

Now imagine if you were hiking at night in an extreme climate, and your companions can only see/touch the top of your helmet or the bottom of your foot. The way out is unknown, and time is a factor.

 

Remember the rescue of the miners recently featured in the media? None of them were hurt! Now realize that no public agency is prepared or equipped for cave rescues--cavers get called in to do it!

 

When you consider that most of the fatalities in caves are the result of minor issues (candles, dead batteries, disorientation due to chills/fatigue/shock, slips/falls) you start to realize that preparation is key.

 

It has NOTHING to do with an individual abilities. It has NOTHING to do with freedom. It has EVERYTHING to do with preparation beyond what an intelligent, wise individual might think of.

 

For those who dive, did you get instruction? Did you learn about equipment? Did you learn respect for the environment? Did you learn self-rescue techniques?

 

These are the things fellow cavers will teach. These are the things geocachers don't know about.

 

Nobody is trying to scare anyone away from caving! Cavers WANT everyone to learn/enjoy/respect caves and our environment. Risking your life or others isn't a good way to go about it.

 

Please use your intelligence and freedom responsibly. Please don't indirectly damage caves needlessly by attracting the disrespectful public to them. Please enjoy them via the experience of knowledgable cavers.

 

Heck, even when introducing people to geocaching we take them with us! Why don't you think cavers would encourage the same?

 

I'm sorry, but I'm an individualist too, it's one of the things I enjoy about geocaching. I can fully appreciate that perspective.

 

But claiming that 'cavers' are restricting anything is ridiculous. I reiterate NSS the published article I had quoted from last Spring promoting caching.

 

Constantly promoting this idea of a 'conflict' is counter-productive. The caving community has embraced geocaching. Why do some geocachers continue to try to create issues?

 

I'm afraid you are gradually turning my prior perspective of positives on both sides to negative in terms of caching.

 

Enjoy (wisely),

 

Randy

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

I am a Geocacher and I too have found lots of caves,but have elected not to bring these matters up till now,I do not hide them but am a good Steward of the things that God has given us to manage,I am just a citizen and have no political ties to any of it and am glad to share it with anyone who asks me personally to go and see them,provided they have all the skills and equiptment to go.Some of them are very dangerous,Strait line shafts over 100 feet to the bottom and so on,I do not post the coordinates here for the simple matter that I have had Muggles and Land Managers messing with caches,if I were to expose some of this other I can just imagine the fallout that would be caused.There are 180 known caves here in Barry county and they are all published somewhere.Most of them are on the Topographical maps.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

TAKE PRIDE IN AMERICA

 

http://www.doi.gov/news/front_current.html

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/

Initial Points Page

http://www.True-Meridiansubscribe@yahoogroups.com

[georapper]

tell the cavers to pull the big stick outta their @ss

 

Creativity Within The Bounds Of Conformity

[+Searching_ut]

nincehelser said:

 

quote:

---

You can poo-poo hypothermia all you want. The fact is that it happens, and even experienced cavers fall victim to it...especially when they are injured and/or exhausted. People drown when passages are flooded by sudden storms. Some are overcome by pockets of CO2.

---

 

I'm not sure what makes you think caves are so particularly dangerous when compared to so many other outdoor adventures. Maybe it's something new to you, particularly scary for whatever reason.

 

The simple fact regarding hypothermia is that the temperature in caves is a fixed, expected risk, easy to prepare for. With many other outdoor sports, temperature extremes can and do happen, making hypothermia a sometimes less expected risk, and far more of a problem.

 

As a quick comparison of some of the risks you mention with other outdoor adventures: Amazingly, you sometimes see deaths from hypothermia in the slot canyons of the deserts when the temperature is over 100 degrees. People get into the water filled slot canyons and don't make it to a spot where they can get back out prior to the cold taking hold. Also, an idividual who tends to have to climb the higest peak in whatever area I happen to be in, I've seen the temperature drop by more than 80 degrees in only a couple hours worth of climbing. If you happen to blow a knee, or otherwise incapacitate yourself while climbing, you can quickly find yourself in a situation where you go from worrying about heat exhaustion to dealing with near freezing temperatures. You also have the very real threat of the person being exhausted, trying to reach the peak when they should have turned back. The temperature swings in dry high altitude air can be quite extreme.

 

As for weather, it can create flooding issues in some caves, or again some slot canyons. It can and is also a very dangerous thing for climbers. Storms often form right at the mountain, giving little or no advance warning. Temperatures drop significantly, rain or ice falls horizontally in winds that can easily exceed 100 mph, visibility often drops to almost nothing and you sometimes get lightning peppering the mountain. Even when the weather remains constant, how many don't realize or understand the way different times of the day contribute to rock spawling?

 

Again, I'm not saying that caving is without risk. My personal assesment however is that the risks are pretty much in line with many other outdoor adventures, and probably quite a bit less than many of the outdoor sports people refer to as "extreme". From a safety aspect I don't see letting people know about the location as any worse than letting them know of a mountain peak, canyon waterfall etc.

 

As for the desire to protect the caves from stupid people. I can understand that approach, and even somewhat support it. Although I feel it's wrong on principal, I don't have a better suggestion on how to protect the resources, which I can buy into needing some protection.

[+nincehelser]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Searching_ut:

I'm not sure what makes you think caves are so particularly dangerous when compared to so many other outdoor adventures. Maybe it's something new to you, particularly scary for whatever reason.

---

 

Right. It's apparent you know as little about me as you do caving.

 

George

[+Corp Of Discovery]

Why don't we see any montaineering people complaining about caches on mountains? Or divers complaining about caches by water?

Those 2 activities are at least as dangerous as caving. And thats to say nothing of the Antarctic caches, surely more one of the most dangerous places on the face of the earth. If someone want to do something they know is dangerous and do not prepare properly- maybe they shouldn't do it, and if they do and something happens well that's just their stupidity. People have to take responsibility for their own actions. In the words of Dirty Harry, "a mans got to know his limitations".

 

Remember, wherever you go- there you are!

[+RomadPilot]

Perhaps I'm a bit idealistic... Cavers and cachers seem alot alike, probably more than either wish to agree to. Having participated in both activities, I recognize the dangers that exist when out and about. This tit for tat whining about what is more dangerous serves no purpose to eitherof these or any other activity.

Keep your head on swivel and be cognizant of danger, be it in a cave, park, or your car driving to either location.

 

Like it was mentioned earlier in the thread... The Leading cause of Death is living!

[+Searching_ut]

nincehelser said:

quote:

---

Right. It's apparent you know as little about me as you do caving.

---

 

Ah, it would appear you feel that because I disagree, I must not understand. While I wouldn't call myself an expert at caving, I would say I'm fairly experienced at it. I've been a pretty avid outdoorsman for a lot of years, and that's just one of many types of outdoor adventure I've sought. I think I've studied, and understand the risks fairly well. That said, I also think I understand the risks associated with many of the other outdoor pursuits I have. Climbers know for every 8 climbers of Everest, 1 dies. Yes, that's at the extreme, but even little gofer hills like New Hampshire’s Mt. Washington have some pretty impressive death tolls. As someone who also likes whitewater rafting, I've had the misfortune of being on a trip where a lady I worked with drowned, even though technically doing nothing wrong. Just panicked and inhaled water without going under, in an area where she couldn't be extracted from the water quickly enough for recessitation attempts to be effective.

 

I guess we'll just have to disagree on the severity of the risks involved. For my last couple cents worth on the issue however, I've got to say I like RJFerrets early approach which he eventually summed up with: "It has EVERYTHING to do with preparation beyond what an intelligent, wise individual might think of". He does however seem to be jumping on the "boogie man will get you" bandwagon however. Keep the dangers based in reality and people won't find it so much of an insult to their intelligence and find themselves automatically disagreeing with the whole discussion. I personally find Randys "Cavers WANT everyone to learn/enjoy/respect caves and our environment", and offers to assist others in enjoying the experience something pretty hard to disagree with. The good parts of the discussion can be easily overlooked however when other parts of the discussion get hard to believe or accept.

[+Team Cacheopeia]

Here seems to be an important difference between cavers and cachers:

 

Cavers ("good" cavers) have invested lots of time and money into caving equipment and information.

 

This is also true of some cachers. But the very friendliness of the sport means that anyone with a few bucks for a GPS can go. If you've ever seen pictures from a geocaching event, cachers are not *always* the most fit, outdoorsy, athletic types. Geocaching appeals to a wide range.

 

Acknowledging that difference, there is a real validity in the rating system of caching. Cache according to your ability. I'm not going to attempt a 5 involving diving because I'm not the strongest swimmer in the world.

 

If a cache was placed by a cave, it should probably have a high difficulty rating, a strong warning about caving safety and a strong discouragment for people who hadn't caved before from entering the cave. At the same time, there are plenty of educated, outdoorsy cachers who would responsibly take on the challenge. There needs to be a balance between welcoming low-level newbies and respecting and challenging high-level outdoorsmen too.

 

To address issues other than safety, perhaps cavers just need to meet a few cachers to learn that most share the same respect for nature that cavers do, and are not plunderers and trashers (in fact, are the opposite).

 

Jaime and Jason

Team Cacheopeia

 

image ©scienceandart.com -- used with permission

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Besides, GPS reception in caves is horrible!

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

[+nincehelser]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Searching_ut:

Ah, it would appear you feel that because I disagree, I must not understand.

---

 

Ah, and you're so incorrect. You seem to think hypothermia in a cave is something easily preventable. The fact is, it is often a serious complication of something simple and unexpected happening...like getting injured and having to stay much longer than you ever would have expected.

 

You obviously think you're a great outdoorsman, but I suggest you study caving accident reports, and see how often hypothermia is an issue.

 

George

 

[This message was edited by nincehelser on August 30, 2003 at 03:31 PM.]

[+nincehelser]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corp Of Discovery:

Why don't we see any montaineering people complaining about caches on mountains? Or divers complaining about caches by water?

Those 2 activities are at least as dangerous as caving.

---

 

Simply put, because mountains and oceans can't be blocked off easily like a cave entrance.

 

Many a cave has been sealed due to liability issues.

 

People doing stupid things in caves and getting them closed off puts a serious crimp in the caving hobby.

 

George

[+Corp Of Discovery]

quote:

---

Originally posted by nincehelser:

Simply put, because mountains and oceans can't be blocked off easily like a cave entrance.

---

What would this have to do with them complaining about caching on/in mountains/water?

 

quote:

---

Many a cave has been sealed due to liability issues.

---

As have many basketball courts (at least in my area), does this mean we can't place caches by them also?

 

quote:

---

People doing stupid things in caves and getting them closed off puts a serious crimp in the caving hobby.

---

So why should the hobby of caving take precedence over geocaching? Cachers can't cache because it would potentially impact caving?

 

I guess I just don't see the realy big deal in this. If cachers and cavers do things according to the respective rules regarding their hobbies, there should be no conflict.

 

I think Team GPSaxophone said it best:

quote:

---

Besides, GPS reception in caves is horrible!

---

Just best and logical there be no caches in caves, but near caves or virtuals of them should be OK- as long as they keep to the geocaching guidelines.

 

Remember, wherever you go- there you are!

[+nincehelser]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corp Of Discovery:

What would this have to do with them complaining about caching on/in mountains/water?

---

 

Because it poses no risk to their activities.

 

quote:

---

As have many basketball courts (at least in my area), does this mean we can't place caches by them also?

---

 

That makes no logical sense. Try again.

 

quote:

---

So why should the hobby of caving take precedence over geocaching? Cachers can't cache because it would potentially impact caving?

---

 

Why shouldn't it? Geocachers do nothing for caves. Cavers, on the other hand, put in a serious amount of work towards cave preservation.

 

Even so, cavers realize access is not guaranteed...that access is a privilege, not a right, even on public land.

 

George

[+RJFerret]

You know, something occurred to me.

 

This 'issue' only exists in the geocaching community. The NSS explored the issue, opened the dialog here last December, and provided their recommendations to local grottos: done.

 

Why do cachers keep trying to suggest cavers are thwarting their activities? The cavers support caching!

 

Instead of coming here and trying to give the caving community a bad reputation, why not either go caving, or place a new cache?

 

Again, on the safety issue, the general public realizes mountaineering, canyoneering, etc. require special prep. All it takes is willingness to enter a cave and then get in trouble.

 

The reality of decades of accident reports speaks against those suggesting, ''I don't understand why caves could be dangerous.''

 

The fact that some are saying such here, is also evidence that they don't appreciate the hazards. There's nothing wrong with that, that's fine. But please don't criticize those who would offer info helpful to enjoyment and survival!

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

 

PS: Remember, the caving community has embraced geocaching. Why won't cachers accept the embrace? (Just stubborness I suppose, ''they must be against us!'') !?!!

[+Xitron]

I was kinda believing you nincehelser, until you posted

Simply put, because mountains and oceans can't be blocked off easily like a cave entrance.

Many a cave has been sealed due to liability issues. People doing stupid things in caves and getting them closed off puts a serious crimp in the caving hobby.

That statement in itself shows you think all but cavers can handle what you and your fellow cavers can do and disregard anyone else but your own click.

[caver_jeffery]

Sigh! I spent a long time on my last post trying not to sound "elitist."

 

Let me try to put this spin on it. A normal John Doe is not going decide to pull a cheap rope out of the trunk of his car and climb to the top of Mt. Everest when there's a cache nearby. Nor is he going to pull an air compressor out of the garage to rig a make-shift dive suit. Nor is he going to use a clothesline rope to rappel down a cliff face. Most people realize these activities require training, equipment, and preparation.

 

But caves have a different allure. Many people don't think of them as potentially dangerous. On occassion, I've met people in caves who had pulled an old flashlight out of the trunk of a car and ambled in. I've found clothes line rope "rigged" to ascend/descend a section of cave wall. I've helped teenagers soaking wet and shaking, asking how to get back out because they're lost.

 

I'm not suggesting caving is more dangerous than other activities. I'm saying the greatest danger in caving is not understanding how dangerous it is.

 

BTW, if you knew me, you'd realize how far off the mark it is to call me an "elitist." And you realize my first post had nothing to do with keeping non-cavers away from caves.

[+SamLowrey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xitron:

......Simply put, because mountains and oceans can't be blocked off easily like a cave entrance.

Many a cave has been sealed due to liability issues. People doing stupid things in caves and getting them closed off puts a serious crimp in the caving hobby.

......

---

 

Great point.

[+SamLowrey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by caver_jeffery:

Sigh! I spent a long time on my last post trying not to sound "elitist."

.......

---

 

I don't really get it myself. I feel so uninformed. I didn't realise I was supposed to think of cavers as elitists in the first place. But according to the reaction from others, that is the case.....

 

I guess the underestimation of the dangers of caves comes from a sort of folk lore that depicts caves as a shelter from other threats. Just a thought.

 

But as for my opinion on leaving caches near or even IN caves I would not oppose it. If someone wants to take risks, that is their own lookout.

[+Searching_ut]

caver_jeffery said:

 

quote:

---

BTW, if you knew me, you'd realize how far off the mark it is to call me an "elitist." And you realize my first post had nothing to do with keeping non-cavers away from caves.

---

 

I'll take your word for it, and give you the benefit of the doubt there, knowing full well that printed words quite often don’t come close to conveying the thoughts we’re trying to express to someone else. Had we carried on the discussion over a beer in person, our perceptions would have most likely been different, for better or worse who knows. Better than a beer even, If you’re in the area, maybe I can even take you on one of my favorite types of adventure (A good climb), and let you see the world from up high, instead of from down below.

 

As for the danger of hypothermia, and having “experienced” people at risk for spending a mere 90 extra minutes in a 40-45 degree most likely windless cave…… If you’re being honest and upfront here, may I suggest that you’re messing up, and might want to get with some mountaineering types for a little training. Most of the time, those sorts of conditions, or even an ice filled lava tube are something we’d call shelter. In that particular case, even a little plastic space blanket rescue bag should have been more than sufficient to allow the individual to stay in there for hours, even if soaking wet. Planning for an impromptu extended stay should be the norm for an experienced outdoorsman, which is part of why I thought you were just trying to blow smoke. Since it appears your weren’t I really think that having some of your group train in a winter survival course could have a great crossover benefit for those you do mysterious secret things in dark underground places with. Whatever you decide, I can’t emphasize this enough. If you’re getting into hypothermia trouble in conditions as mild and predictable as a cave, you’re almost certainly messing up (There are of course exceptions to every rule). Lack of foresight, training, or planning is just not a good excuse, nor is not having the proper equipment given all of the great clothing and gear available today.

 

Good luck, and watch your head

 

Jeff

[+nincehelser]

Again, you seem to have no clue as to what's happening in cave conditions.

 

Before you continue to blow smoke, start reading some caving accident reports. Then inform us all how the hypothermia problem is easily fixed, and how everyone is "messing up".

 

Just for your illumination, I can think of several accidents where the victim was wedged or hanging in an inaccessible location....often unconcious. How do you get up to them to wrap them up or keep them warm? You can't even get close and sometimes you have no idea if they are dead or alive. What do you do if they are stuck partially submerged in cool water, slowly sucking away their body heat?

 

If things in cave were always so simple that could always just easily wrap yourself up in a space blanket and be warm, perhaps you'd have a point. But it's clear you have little idea what rescue situations are really like.

 

George

[+Xitron]

nincehelser,

you seem like a ok guy but these scare tatics are really lame, while I'm not a caving expert I have crawled in a few holes in my time. The main thing peeps need to do is prepare. Know what you are going into and prepare for the worst. As for peeps hanging upside down freezing to death how many of those have happened in the last 5 years. Any website link would be nice.

[+nincehelser]

Gee. Scare tactics? Hardly.

 

Here's a link for you to start your research.

 

http://www.caves.org/pub/aca/

 

George

[bmcilvoy]

People die every day.

 

Some might be caving, some might be climbing mountains, but most people will die in their bed.

 

Lord - Please don't let me die in my bed.

 

Bernie

[+SamLowrey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by bmcilvoy:

People die every day.

 

Some might be caving, some might be climbing mountains, but most people will die in their bed.

 

Lord - Please don't let me die in my bed.

 

Bernie

---

 

They are probably worried about people dying in "their" cave and stinking it up. Now, if a cacher dies near a cache, you can pretty much step around them, but there is no ignoring a dead body in a cave, I imagine.....

[+SearchRescueDog]

Being from an area with limited caves (about 25 in the state I think) feel free to take this with a grain of salt... If there is such a desire to cache in caves that this thread surfaces over and over again why not find common ground.

 

The facts are very clear... Caves are dangerous. There is a reason that you dont see Fire Department confined space rescue teams pulling people out of caves, they call the local grotto. You can down play hypothermia and injuries all you want but air quality is a BIG hazard in any confined space.

 

Perhaps the "cavers" are a little paranoid of some bum walking into a cave and causing damage but if you look at the history of well known caves you will see this is a very real fear. How hard would it be to accept that maybe physical caches should be off limits? Isn't the cave itself worth the trip to do a virtual? Why not work with the local grotto.

 

Is it so hard to think of what progress may be made if a local geocaching society got together with a grotto and setup a virtual that the grotto assisted finders with? Call it supervision if you want but I wouldn't want to fly a plane without taking lessons.

[+SearchRescueDog]

Just happened upon this article... GLENWOOD SPRINGS, Colorado (AP) -- A man and a woman are recovering from dehydration after spending nearly five days lost in a cave.