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Guns and caching...


Alan2
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My only comment:

The Right to keep and bear arms.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

TAKE PRIDE IN AMERICA

 

http://www.doi.gov/news/front_current.html

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/

Arkansas Missouri Geocachrs Association

http://www.ARK-MOGeocachersAssociatoin@msnusers.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ark-Mo-Geocachers

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But again like I mentioned in my first post I would be more concerned about dogs.

 

As a matter of fact this past weekend my wife and I were out scoping a spot for a cache I just placed and she was almost attacked by a dog. Someones pet that was loose in the street. He came very close to biting her and I think it was lucky that I was there because it scared the doot out of her. Luckily I was able to fend/scare him off and things had a happy ending.

 

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Caching without a clue....

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C'mon guys - a civil discussion please.

While I'm not a big gun fan, we've been out on caches that take about 2 hours each way. When I'm with my wife and kid out where cell phones don't work, the thought of carrying a gun has crossed my mind.

I'm not wild about the idea so I think we're going to stay away from some of those cachers for now but I fully support the discussions of a gun in this forum. It's a matter of safety and is appropriate.

Everybody is welcome to their opinions, just let em talk, alright?

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Yeah... discussion of guns is a good thing. ESPECIALLY if you dislike them. I understand that it's supposed to be family friendly, guns are not family friendly in my book. This is something that we, as adults, must discuss though. It's quite eye-opening to me that so many people take guns caching.

 

That said, I am totally against guns pretty much everywhere. Hunting is an exception, although I'm not a huge fan of hunting either. I would never bring a gun geocaching, although I do fear a wild dog attack. I just think the risks involved outweigh that... if I encounter wild dogs I can fend them of with a hiking stick, if need be.

 

If anyone wants to see a great movie that deals with these sorts of things, watch "Bowling for Columbine". It shows that guns in America is the problem... guns aren't really a problem anywhere else. Just as many people have guns in Canada... but their level of gun violence is practically zero compared to ours. I think our government could learn a thing of two from other countries.

 

Trailblazer... You do have the right to bear arms, but are guns always the best solution? Remember, that was written in a time when we were at war within our own country. It was conceived in a much different time. I'm not saying you shouldn't carry... I just hate to hear people use that as their reasoning.

 

By the way, I voted for the "I don't own a gun" one.

 

People in this country need to learn not to fear so much. Fear is the biggest problem we have. They're too willing to pull a gun on a person because they happen to be walking to the same store as them and are of a different race... "Oh god... that *insert racial term here* is following me... I need to do something if I want to live." Guns aren't the problem, but until we learn to be less scared, maybe we shouldn't carry so many. (Scared of wild animals is different. I'm not criticizing anyone who carries for that reason of protection.)

 

-Zach

-Team Zen-

migo_sig_logo.jpg

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I would like to add my $.02 for what its worth.

 

First I am not nocking anyone here. Each of us has their own reasons and thoughts about this.

First "Gun's" in the U.S. are not the problem, People are. A gun cannot do anything on its own. Its just a tool just like a car, knife, baseball bat, rock, ect... Why did I list these? Becouse thay too are used to harm other people.

There are animals out there of the human kind that will kill you for just the fun of it. They dont need a reason they just think its fun and will use what ever they have at hand to do it.

I hope that no one ever meets up with someone like this but I hope that we all are ready to protect our familys and ourselves if needed.

I do not go out looking for trouble and do not take the use of a gun lightly.

Thanks and good geohunting.

Rick

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Zen cachers said:

quote:
If anyone wants to see a great movie that deals with these sorts of things, watch "Bowling for Columbine". It shows that guns in America is the problem... guns aren't really a problem anywhere else. Just as many people have guns in Canada... but their level of gun violence is practically zero compared to ours. I think our government could learn a thing of two from other countries.

 

I don't even want to get into the discussion about the movie - that's a long thread in itself but I don't understand your comment.

 

If a thing is a problem somewhere but the same thing is not a problem somewhere else, then the thing itself must not be the real problem.

 

If Canada has just as many guns with practically zero problems, then guns are not problems.

 

Also, how I usually end any disagreement about firearms is a simple "we disagree". Thankfully, it's our constitutional right to keep and bear firearms, not as some would believe, just to go hunting.

 

ps (I forgot to mention that I doubt that I would ever cache where my hiking stick wasn't enough protection.)

 

"The hardest thing to find is something that's not there!"

 

[This message was edited by WildcatRegi on September 02, 2003 at 03:50 AM.]

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I legally carry a handgun and live in VA and I would like to make a few points about the issue. First of all, those of us who are licensed are trained in safe use and also in the legal aspects of carrying. Criminals are not - and of course they don't care what the law says or requires. One point I would like to make is that I have never heard of an over-reaction by a license holder (there may well be some examples, though) A person carrying a weapon doesn't use it to bully folks and will back down if able to do so. No one I know really wants to display a gun to solve a problem. That's what sets the law-abiding citizen apart from the criminal, by the way. This is where some people speak out with no real knowledge of the subject. As to WHERE crime occurs, some people think they can figure out just where they are likely to run into trouble. These are people that need to serve in law enforcement because no one has been able to do this yet. Is a park safer than a city street or a school or restaurant? Ask the families of those who died violently in all these places. How about those who die or are wounded and terrorized by a workplace shooting. All these places SHOULD be fun, yet tragedy happens in all of them. Though some people dislike guns - and that is their right - others have the right to carry them. Like a previous poster said, we just disagree. Concealed carry makes everybody safer, even those who are afraid of guns or just don't like them. But lets learn the aspects of both sides before expressing an uninformed opinion.

Respectfully yours,

tamstan

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:

It's quite eye-opening to me that so many people take guns caching.


 

Pathetic, isn't it?

 

quote:
Originally posted by Shadow's:

First "Gun's" in the U.S. are not the problem, People are.


 

You are right there. Particularly cowards who have an unnecessary need to always be equipped and prepared to commit homicide - I’m talking about those who “carry” (and I am not talking about law enforcement officers).

 

quote:
Originally posted by Tamstan:

Concealed carry makes everybody safer, even those who are afraid of guns or just don't like them.


 

Bull....

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me. geol4.JPG

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The only pathetic thing about -LEGAL- gun owners is the fact that the anti-gunners just cannot get over the facts.

 

FACTS: 1. Guns are used more often to save lives than they are used to take lives. 2. Quite often, just the drawing of a gun ends the confrontation as the criminal runs. 3. Legal licensed gun owners are less likely to break ANY law than non-gun owners. 4. You are less likely to be accidentally shot by a gun owner with a carry license than you are by the police. 5. Rocks, sticks, knives, and automobiles - while all can be used as a weapon - none of them are protected by the U. S. constitution.

 

My bottom line still is: IT IS LEGAL! WE ARE LICENSED! GET OVER IT OR GET LOST!!!!! The politicians are getting the message. So are Great Britain, Austrailia, and Canada. All except for the die-hard minority. I wish they would wake up and read the stats, not the left-wing bull!

 

Now, lets start a thread about people being unfriendly to the environment by owning, renting, and flying private planes. What purpose could there possibly be for private flying? Wasting gas? Polluting the air? Making lots of noise? Wasting land with huge runways? After all, commercial airlines will get you almost anywhere you want to go now-days. They even have smaller planes for the short hops. So why fly your own plane? I see no reason whatsover. It is environmentally unfriendly and disturding to your neighboors! We should BAN all private aircraft! After all, they are not even protected by the constitution. They do make a formidable weapon in the hands of a lunatic. Any one of them MIGHT be used to crash into a building or carry a bio-weapon over a city. SO BAN THEM ALL!

 

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

 

[This message was edited by Desert_Warrior on September 02, 2003 at 07:36 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Desert_Warrior:

_FACTS: _ 1. Guns are used more often to save lives than they are used to take lives. 2. Quite often, just the drawing of a gun ends the confrontation as the criminal runs. 3. Legal licensed gun owners are less likely to break ANY law than non-gun owners. 4. You are less likely to be accidentally shot by a gun owner with a carry license than you are by the police.


 

Bull... show me your independent sources.

 

Fact: Very often the drawing of a gun ends up with a dead person.

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me. geol4.JPG

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quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

Bull... show me your independent sources.

 

_I have never in my life learned anything_.


 

IT IS LEGAL. I AM LICENSED. GET OVER IT OR GET LOST!!!

 

I love your quote.

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:

I understand that it's supposed to be family friendly, guns are not family friendly in my book.


 

If it keeps my family alive (in any situation) then I don't know that I would call it friendly but I sure wouldn't say it was 'not family friendly'

 

quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:

if I encounter wild dogs I can fend them of with a hiking stick, if need be.


 

Good luck.

 

quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:

Just as many people have guns in Canada... but their level of gun violence is practically zero compared to ours. I think our government could learn a thing of two from other countries.


 

Bad comparrison. The population of CA is larger than that of all of CAnada. I don't see how the number of guns matter. Its the population.

 

migo_sig_logo.jpg

__________________________

Caching without a clue....

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I'll probably regret this, but here goes...

 

1st, I totally defend the right for those of you who wish to carry a gun. It is a right that should be protected. However, those individuals who break laws with guns should be prosecuted fully in order to further protect that right.I do not own a gun and have never considered carrying one, but that's just me. Now to geocaching and guns...

 

Considering the enormous amount of caching done around the world, it seems there would be instances of where a gun made a difference in a situation..Can anyone attest to a specific time when the carrying of a gun became a necessity rather than preventive security, by actually discharging the weapon or threatening to discharge it??

 

"There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets?"

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quote:
Originally posted by umc:

 

quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:

Just as many people have guns in Canada... but their level of gun violence is practically zero compared to ours. I think our government could learn a thing of two from other countries.


 

Bad comparrison. The population of CA is larger than that of all of CAnada. I don't see how the number of guns matter. Its the population.

 


 

I disagree - it is a good comparison. I wouldn't go so far as to say that in Canada our level of violence is "practically nil". However, the homicide rate (per capita) in Canada is 1/3 of that of the U.S. In Canada only 1/3 of its homicides are by guns. In the U.S. the majority of homicides are by guns.(sources available on request)

 

I do not necessarily attribute this difference to the stricter gun control laws in Canada (but it does have an impact). I think the main reason for the difference is, is that in Canada we do not have the overwhelming “gun culture” that is so prevalent in the U.S: A gun culture so ingrained, that one can publicly brag that they arm themselves to kill everyday, without being socially ostracized.

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me. geol4.JPG

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach and Shannon - Team Zen:People in this country need to learn not to fear so much. Fear is the biggest problem we have. They're too willing to pull a gun on a person because they happen to be walking to the same store as them and are of a different race... "Oh god... that *insert racial term here* is following me... I need to do something if I want to live." Guns aren't the problem, but until we learn to be less scared, maybe we shouldn't carry so many. (Scared of wild animals is different. I'm not criticizing anyone who carries for that reason of protection.)


 

I really don't think the situation you describe above exists. If it does, it's infintesimal. The vast majority of problems exists between either people with criminal intent and their victims or people with criminal intent and their cronies or other criminal foes. I've put perhaps 500 people through the NRA handgun safety course in 10 years, and only one of them has ever pulled on a person that I've heard of. A guy attacked him with a tire iron in a parking garage in downtown Portland. My student drew his gun, the other guy changed his mind. No charges were filed. What you have described fall within the definition of Menacing. It happens sometimes, but it's quite rare.

 

--------------------

You have the right to defend yourself, even when geocaching!

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quote:
My bottom line still is: _IT IS LEGAL! WE ARE LICENSED! GET OVER IT OR GET LOST!!!!!_ The politicians are getting the message. So are Great Britain, Austrailia, and Canada. All except for the die-hard minority. I wish they would wake up and read the stats, not the left-wing bull!


 

What message is Great Britain getting? If anybody goes out caching here carrying a gun they are liable for arrest. The only exception I could see would be if it was on your own land, which would sort of suggest that you'd know where it was. Gun laws over here were tightened a few years ago here after a multiple shooting at a school. It is now very difficult to obtain a gun license here, so I don't see what message GB is getting other than guns (well, bullets) kill.

 

I don't have an opinion on what you guys do in the US, but over here they are not required, and the vast majority of people over here do not have or want one. We have armed police here, but not walking the streets (with the exception of Nottingham and parts of London) The carrying of guns by police has coincided with an increase in firearms offences, and armed robbery, in both cities... so I guess the average criminal is not detered by the police being armed... so why be detered by mr average carrying one.

 

I see the point that if I pull a gun on an attacker he is more likely to run away... but when guns are more widely available, the chances of my attcker being armed are greater and so, therefore, are the chances of me being shot.

 

I have been robbed at gunpoint when on business in Belgium, and I gather that the guns used by offenders there are generally legally owned.

 

Whilst on facts... I believe that guns are the number one cause of death of black youths in the United States... and that can't be good.

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quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

Bull... show me your independent sources.

 

Fact: _Very_ often the drawing of a gun ends up with a dead person.

 


 

Is "very often" a quanitifiable scientific term of measurement?

 

Regarding drawing in the face of an attack by someone, human nature values survival over all else. Saying that "very often" a criminal will staop is a pretty sure bet. As for the other 2 points, you won't find any "independant source" simply because statistics do one thing well: they lie. Both sides spin them, and I ignore the numbers both sides present because I really don't care what their numbers say.

 

I know this is a hot button issue for many, you included. I am just surprised it's as big an issue that it is. What does it have to do with geocaching? Just as much as what you wear for shoes, what you eat or if you wear shorts while geocaching. Why do you care if people carry while they cache?

 

It means something to some people, nothing to others. People do not have to justify what they feel about the subject, and that applies to both sides of the issue.

 

--------------------

You have the right to defend yourself, even when geocaching!

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Only 1 letter diffrence would change your mind,and your outlook today GUN(FUN)F before G except after C we should all get together and have ......FUN.............,I can't have no fun when Im a looking for a gun.

Everything has its place and Geocaching is not for Guns,again I say if you aint havin fiun go somewheres else with your gun.

 

Here is a poem that ought to reminds those.

This is a weapon and this is a gun one is for huntin the other is for fun.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS

*GEOTRYAGAIN*

TAKE PRIDE IN AMERICA

http://www.doi.gov/news/front_current.html

1803-2003

"LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/index

 

Arkansas Missouri Geocachrs Association

http://www.ARK-MOGeocachersAssociatoin@msnusers.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ark-Mo-Geocachers

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quote:
Originally posted by mckee:

I know this is a hot button issue for many, you included. I am just surprised it's as big an issue that it is. What does it have to do with geocaching?


 

Exactly. Jeremy has said, that gun related issues are not an appropriate topic of discussion on these forums and I agree. However, if the thread does not get locked down, I am not prepared to have a gun culture "gunfest" carry on without responding. (I waited for awhile, it did not get locked - so I jumped in).

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me. geol4.JPG

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quote:
Originally posted by NattyBooshka:

We have armed police here, but not walking the streets (with the exception of Nottingham and parts of London) The carrying of guns by police has coincided with an increase in firearms offences, and armed robbery, in both cities...


One of the things the pro-side cites is that this problem arose after guns in Britain became severly restrictd, thus proving that gun laws do not stop gun crimes.

quote:

so I guess the average criminal is not detered by the police being armed... so why be detered by mr average carrying one.


"The average criminal" (whatever that is) wouldn't go up to rob a cop anyway. They would go up and rob a regular guy on the street. If a portion of the amount of regular guys on the street were suddenly armed, face-to-face crime becomes more dangerous than simple property crimes like breaking & entering or car theft. "Crime" as an abstract concept doesn't go down, it shifts to crime that is less dangerous to the survival of the criminal. "Violent crime" (more specific than "crime") will go down as a result, or at least in concept.

quote:

I see the point that if I pull a gun on an attacker he is more likely to run away... but when guns are more widely available, the chances of my attcker being armed are greater and so, therefore, are the chances of me being shot.


That is if he wants to risk certainly being shot at. Of course if the ciminal has his gun out first, the victim is having to beat the nasty Reactionary Gap, a mostly-losing bet. This is why self-defense courses (not the generic "safety course" most people feel applies to tactical training) preach that Avoidance is a Fight Won. Use techniques to avoid being cornered by a potential attacker, and you will not have to pull the gun you carry. Wise words that most people who carry guns legally don't always get. If you do actually go to the extent of learning any sort of tactics, you're branded a "gun nut" by the anti-gun crowd for following their own recommendations, that "You should have to go through police-style training in order to carry."

quote:

I have been robbed at gunpoint when on business in Belgium, and I gather that the guns used by offenders there are generally legally owned.


Why? I'm not familiar with their laws regarding legally obtaining a gun, so I don't know if they can easily buy or sell without a paper trail.

quote:

Whilst on facts... I believe that guns are the number one cause of death of black youths in the United States... and that can't be good.


That is probably accurate, and I am crazy because I blame their lifestyle choice. Generally, their killer will be another black youth, and drugs/gang problems are the direct cause. If the pressure to become a part of such a sub-culture is removed, the problem is reduced (note I do not say "eliminated"). That does not mean that other problems won't exist since Human Nature is the prime motivator. The same result with removing only one tool (guns). Cain and Abel both knew this.

 

--------------------

You have the right to defend yourself, even when geocaching!

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quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

quote:
Originally posted by mckee:

I know this is a hot button issue for many, you included. I am just surprised it's as big an issue that it is. What does it have to do with geocaching?


 

Exactly. Jeremy has said, that gun related issues are not an appropriate topic of discussion on these forums and I agree.


 

Indeed. I'm sure there is a gun debate site out there where you can argue to your heart's content.

 

Locking the thread.

 

frog.gif Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location™

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