I quit..

July 30, 2003

Just to let you fine folks know.. I have decided to quit Geocaching..

Iceians has made my position untenable both on GC.com and on GAGB..

I know there will be several folks jumping up and down with glee now.. They have won there battle.. but they have not won the war..

And that .. it seams is the way of it.. A vendetta agains me.. well they can say they have won.. I am gone.. but my legacy lives on.. and whilst that does.. they wil never win..

Good Bye and happy cacheing.

Moss the Boss... Sorta

July 30, 2003

I salute you Moss. I hope against hope that you change your mind, though.

As for the glee-jumpers: few and far between. I'm sure.

Nil Illegitemi Carborundrum or, nore importantly:

Strive to be a person who is never absent from an important act. (Osage)

"Woof" quoth he. Oh, and "Grrr" also.

Omally

July 30, 2003

Obviously I don't know all the details, but why let someone make you stop doing something you enjoy that is not hurting anyone? You *can* participate in Geocaching without ever reading the forums, belonging to associations, reading mailing lists, etc. Search for caches. Find caches. Hide caches.

I hope you change your mind and continue geocaching, even if you don't want to participate in the forums anymore.

Groover

1.1k · July 30, 2003

It seems to me that you have quite for the wrong reasons if someone has driven you off.

I can understand quiting because your done with the game.

I can understand quiting because your no longer in a location to play the game.

I can understand quiting because you have found something else better to do.

I can undestand quiting for mental and physical reason.

I can not accept quiting because some other person(s) and you have a disagreement about something. I do not know any of the details but I would think there is some middle ground to come to an understanding on. Or to bury them under if they do not want to settle differences.

If you really enjoy this game-sport-hobby, try and figure out some way to stay around, even if in the background for a while until the other person(s) settle down.

logscaler

"It is not fair to have a battle of wits with unarmed people."

1.6k · July 30, 2003

Hmm... I take more of this was from the GAGB forum than on here...

MarcB

Took Log Book, Left Nothing

July 31, 2003

If you don’t play my way I’m not playing ether and you’re not using my ball. I hear that in the school yard said by 5 to 10 year olds.

Certain people have said this regarding geocaching several time when things don’t go as they want. Why do they do it? Is it to get “please don’t go” posts.

Either that or you do not have the courage of your convictions.

Moss has quit or threatened to quit at least three times because he was not getting his way. (going way back to the commercial caching debate GC.com allowed it Moss threatened to take his ball in.)

Tim and June I think three times as well

Icenians quit and pulled off their caches from GC.com.

There have been others.

I thought these people were adults I now have my doubts.

Perhaps they are just 7 year olds masquerading as grown ups.

I feel another guideline coming on. No cache must be placed that these people can’t get to in their prams.

July 31, 2003

I do hope you continue caching and also that we'll see you back as a GC.com moderator someday soon. You've been around longer than 'most anyone else and have weathered many-a-storm before.

As for the "several folks" you suggest are happy at the end-results of Icenians expressing his opposition to GAGB, I personally can think of none. And though I've expressed reservations about the way GAGB was announced to the world, don't think for a minute that you'd not have had one of my votes for the GAGB committee! I'm sure many others feel the same.

GeocacheUK - resources for the UK Geocaching community.

July 31, 2003

I hope you mean your just handing in the moderators hat and not quitting geocaching completly. You have quite obviously spent so much time hiding & finding caches, it's something you really enjoy so why let the thoughts of others drive you away from doing what you want to. Even if you don't write here anymore please don't just stop all together.

Its just a hunt for a lunch box, why be so serious!?!

Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk - Stash Notes, forums & Much more...

1.4k · July 31, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Moss Trooper:
Just to let you fine folks know.. I have decided to quit Geocaching..

Iceians has made my position untenable both on GC.com and on GAGB..

I know there will be several folks jumping up and down with glee now.. They have won there battle.. but they have not won the war..

And that .. it seams is the way of it.. A vendetta agains me.. well they can say they have won.. I am gone.. but my legacy lives on.. and whilst that does.. they wil never win..

Good Bye and happy cacheing.

Moss the Boss... Sorta

I have no idea about a 'vendetta' or whatever against you. And for what its worth not interested at all about it.

You either want to cache or you dont. We all have people who do not always agree with what we want, and do we care ...no!! So why do you?

Sorry to sound angry etc but I just cant stand it when peeps dont get what they want and....leave.

Bob....

http://www.bobh.co.uk

July 31, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by L8 Ed:
Icenians quit and pulled off their caches from GC.com.

I don't normally post here any more but this is wrong. I haven't quit geocaching just choose to use another provider.

If you don't like your phone company you change to another one. That's all I've done.

July 31, 2003

If you don't like your phone company you change to another one. That's all I've done.

No it is not.As you are the provider of the Caches you place. You do not pay anything for this.And you deprive people who use GC.com of your caches. So if its a bit like anything, it's like BT taking the hump, and cutting you off because you said that you were not happy with the service.

July 31, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by L8 Ed:
No it is not.As you are the provider of the Caches you place. You do not pay anything for this.And you deprive people who use GC.com of your caches. So if its a bit like anything, it's like BT taking the hump, and cutting you off because you said that the service was bad.

Rubbish!

The service is the website the caches are the content.

July 31, 2003

QUOTE]

Rubbish!

The service is the website the caches are the content.

I don't agree. Anyone who places a cache is doing a service to other cachers. GC.com is a place you can advertise them free.

BT offer a service, They advertise in all forms of media even media that has pulled them to bits in the past.

People who get into the soap box have their say and leave do not deserve to be taken seriously in my view.

July 31, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by L8 Ed:

quote:
Rubbish!

The service is the website the caches are the content.

I don't agree. Anyone who places a cache is doing a service to other cachers. GC.com is a place you can advertise them free.

BT offer a service, They advertise in all forms of media even media that has pulled them to bits in the past.

People who get into the soap box have their say and leave do not deserve to be taken seriously in my view.

Whatever. You have your view I'll stick with mine. I'm happy with my reasons.

1.8k · July 31, 2003

The things that happen when I leave my computor for a few hours - now Moss throws in the towel, worst news since Tim and June did. Do please reconsider Moss - your good sense and good humour are needed here. Not least you are one of the few survivors from before I got into this game!

I too have taken exception to some postings by others but if people have to be like that, well that is life, they may be spoiling it for others and seem to enjoy it. For example the post just above this by Icenians and L8Ed could just as well been a private exchange of messages not cluttering up a usually constructive forum!

Member Geocaching Association of GB

3.8k · July 31, 2003

Like it or not, here comes my two pen’orth. Those of a nervous disposition, stop right here.

As far as I am concerned, Moss Trooper (party of the first part, hereinafter called Moss) is one of the good guys. We’ve drunk beer together and I sincerely hope we’ll drink more when our paths cross again.

However, I believe that it is right and proper that he should now resign as UK approver for Geocaching.com (party of the second part, hereinafter called g.com)

Moss made a public statement:

‘Case in point the HCC guidelines. These are now the guidelines that I and the other UK approver use to approve caches. I have informed all other approvers via the approvers forum that this is the case and if they get involved in approving UK caches to apply these guide lines.’

In doing so he clearly exceeded his mandate. Moss was appointed UK approver by g.com NOT the Hampshire County Council (party of the third part, hereinafter called HCC). HCC does not run geocaching in the UK and g.com approvers have absolutely no right what so ever to impose HCC ‘guidelines’ (and we’ll talk about that later) on the rest of the UK. If I create a cache in Bedfordshire and submit it to g.com for approval I have every right to expect the approver to approve it, or not, according to g.com rules and g.com rules alone.

The fact that HCC have drawn up a set of ‘guidelines’ for the placement of caches in Hampshire should have absolutely no bearing on how a g.com approver looks at a cache in Bedfordshire.

I, like one or two others, have a growing concern about the way our game is going and the ‘blurring’ of the lines of demarcation between Geocaching.com and the various other UK bodies now involved. If a UK approver is appointed by geocaching.com then when they wear that particular hat, they MUST ignore all other hats, organisations, committees and appointments. They must only approve (or not as the case may be) according to the guidelines and rules of the organisation that appointed them. Moss clearly didn’t and his integrity as a g.com approver was called into question. In resigning he made the correct decision. (To stop caching altogether is a bit OTT though, mate.)

The way I have always understood it, ‘Guidelines’ are a set of ‘instructions’ that are the preferred way of doing something but are not necessarily the only acceptable way. Guidelines are for guidance only and are not enforceable.

‘Rules’ on the other hand, lay down the only acceptable way of doing something and are enforceable.

So, can we get rid of all the hypocrisy and state things the way they really are. We (all those that chose to play the game via geocaching.com) are now being subjected to RULES created and laid down by HCC and those people that negotiated with them. Until such times that the HCC rules (however sensible they may be) are incorporated into the g.com rules they have no business being imposed on cachers who wish to place caches outside of Hampshire. The sooner we have one or two approvers who are genuinely independent of HCC and all other interested UK parties, the better.

I am a member of and supporter of the GAGB. They have done fine work with the HCC and have come up with a sensible set of rules relating to caching in Hampshire but at this point in time it is JUST Hampshire not the entire UK.

John

Age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability

July 31, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pharisee:
Until such times that the HCC rules (however sensible they may be) are incorporated into the g.com rules they have no business being imposed on cachers who wish to place caches outside of Hampshire.

Even in Hampshire we should not be subjected to HCC rules as we also work ONLY under g.com!!!

WoodSmoke

GeocacheUK - very useful resources for the UK Geocaching community

July 31, 2003

"Even in Hampshire we should not be subjected to HCC rules as we also work ONLY under g.com!!!"

What rubbish, Guidelines are guidelines, the Land owners have granted permission to play the game on their land. It does not matter which organisation you subscribe too. The fact is, as I see it, some Cachers NO NOT WANT TO PLAY be the (rules) guidlines. Why?? I do not see GAGB V's G.com being the issue. The issue is,as I see it, Who "owns" the guidelines, not who negotiated them!!!!

3.8k · July 31, 2003

quote:
The issue is,as I see it, Who "owns" the guidelines, not who negotiated them!!!!

I think that was the point I was trying to make. The 'guidelines' laid down by HCC and endorsed by the GAGB are NOT Geocaching.com 'guidelines'. I don't have a problem with HCC making rules that apply to caches placed on their land. They have every right to do that. What I object to is the UK approvers rejecting caches that do not meet the HCC rules, irrespective of where they are to be placed, even if they are perfectly acceptable according to the geocaching.com rules.

John

Age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability

July 31, 2003

As I said in another place what Pharisee says makes alot of sense. We play the game using Geocaching.com so there guidelines are the ones we use. It is like playing Rugby League with Rugby Union rules. There will be exceptions but that is what dialogue is all about. It is upto GC.com to impliment changes to there system when they have time so to do. But we do need minimum rules to abide by. Any extra restrictions should cover caches placed in the area that the restrictions apply.

Mark (TheCat)

www.geocacheuk.com

1.4k · July 31, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TheCat:
As I said in another place what Pharisee says makes alot of sense. We play the game using Geocaching.com so there guidelines are the ones we use. It is like playing Rugby League with Rugby Union rules. There will be exceptions but that is what dialogue is all about. It is upto GC.com to impliment changes to there system when they have time so to do. But we do need minimum rules to abide by. Any extra restrictions should cover caches placed in the area that the restrictions apply.

Mark (TheCat)

http://www.geocacheuk.com

Sounds about right to me. Think these are the words I have been looking for for ages. I see nothing wrong with the GC.com 'guidelines' as a whole. They may just need 'fine tuning' towards the laws and regulations of this counry. This would include, I guess, things like contents, placing of and 'black plastic bags' (should have quiet about that one :-)

I just don't think we should 'dump' GC.com is all

Bob....

http://www.bobh.co.uk

July 31, 2003

I have not seen anything as lucid as Pharisee's comments for a very long time, especially on these forums.

I am 100% behind what he says, those of us placing caches outside of Hants are to be governed by GC guidelines not HCC ones.

Thanks John

Neil

July 31, 2003

What Pharisee says above is completely sensible. I have no objections to HCC guidelines being implimented on caches placed on their land. But for a GC approver to take those guidelines, not endorsed by GC.com HQ, and start to reject approval of caches which are not in Hampshire, based on them, when the general GC guidelines woudl otherwise allow them, is just not cricket. Unless, of course, Jeremy Irish has a different view...

However, thats no reason for Moss to give up caching. Thats called cutting of the nose to spite the face. I'm sure he has had many a pleasant hour out alone doing and setting caches, miles away from any of the rest of us. If he wants to stop himself doing that, then he must be mad. But then, lots of people look at us *doing* caches and swear blind that we are mad anyway...

No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced....

August 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by MCL:
But for a GC approver to take those guidelines, not endorsed by GC.com HQ, and start to reject approval of caches which are not in Hampshire, based on them, when the general GC guidelines woudl otherwise allow them, is just not cricket.

Who's to say there guidelines were or were not endorsed my GC.com ?... Us mortal cachers are not privy to the discussions of the worldwide admins or how they go about negotiating regional differences in the approval procedure. For all we know, Moss might have got clearance from GC.com, but there's no easy way to communicate this (except here, which would probably have prompted a flame war!)...

If you can see the 'light at the end of the tunnel', it's usually a train coming !

[This message was edited by Team Paradise on August 01, 2003 at 04:44 AM.]

August 1, 2003

Good point Team Paradise.

Maybe someone can confirm whether they were or weren't endorsed?

August 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pharisee:

quote:
The issue is,as I see it, Who "owns" the guidelines, not who negotiated them!!!!

I think that was the point I was trying to make. The 'guidelines' laid down by HCC and endorsed by the GAGB are NOT Geocaching.com 'guidelines'. I don't have a problem with HCC making rules that apply to caches placed on their land. They have every right to do that. What I object to is the UK approvers rejecting caches that do not meet the HCC rules, irrespective of where they are to be placed, even if they are perfectly acceptable according to the geocaching.com rules.

John

Age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability

Now, one has to ask under what "restrictions" are the approvers placed. Bear with me on this...

It might (or might not) be the case that the GC.COM "powers that be" are happy to delegate certain things to their approvers. They certainly delegate the actual cache APPROVING to their approvers. It might also be (written or un-written) that they are also happy for the approvers to "create suitable extra rules for the local country". Maybe they trust their approvers enough that they do NOT insist that everything be cleared with them.

I have NO DOUBT that the "powers that be" at GC.COM *are* aware of what HCC have been up to (ie the recent event, their guidelines) and I could quite imagine one of them commenting "they look like a sensible set of guidelines.... maybe you ought to use in the UK them until such time as any other guidelines are made by any relevant local caching organisations (and that we also think are sensible)".

So, in that case, it is NOT the UK approver unilaterally applying the HCC guidelines, but GC.COM suggesting they be used.

I work for a company. As such, I represent that company. I hope that, if I were visiting a customer, and I said something to them, that the company would back up in public whatever I say (ok, as long as it was sensible / reasonable), simply beacuse I hope I would be considered to be a "sensible trustworthy employee". I might also expect (even at the same time) to get a private bollocking for what I had done, if I had overstepped my authority. If I had grossly overstepped my authority, I would be fired.

But as far as the outside world is concerned, what I *said* would be backed by the company.

I kinda see a parallel with the approvers who "work for" GC.COM.

Paul

Another proud member of the GAGB!

August 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Moss Trooper:
Just to let you fine folks know.. I have decided to quit Geocaching..

Whether this means you have stepped down from all geocaching posts at GC.COM & GAGB, or have also stopped seeking caches, I am sorry to hear your news.

I met you at the HCC event, and found you to be (like everyone else I met) a pleasant and reasonable person.

Enjoy life away from the "sharp end"! May your stress-levels return to normal!

Paul

August 1, 2003

I am certainly not jumping up and down with glee. I have met moss a couple of times, most recently at the HCC event. I do not know what this is about but I am going to poke about after this post.

Moss you cannot let people get you down. Things are happening even though a minority of teams do not approve. I am pretty sure after I have discovered what is behind this I am not going to be happy.

I would also encourage you to do what T&J did and just focus on the hobby and not the admin side of things.

Kindest regards

Chris

LASSITUDE- (noun) Tiredness and apathy: a state of weariness accompanied by listlessness or apathy[15th century. Via French from Latin lassitudo , from lassus 'weary'.]

August 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Blitz:
I met you at the HCC event, and found you to be (like everyone else I met) a pleasant and reasonable person.

So did rob if I remember, "quick, everyone get in my boat before you all drown"

Mike

Of course.....

August 1, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Blitz:

I have NO DOUBT that the "powers that be" at GC.COM *are* aware of what HCC have been up to (ie the recent event, their guidelines)

Quote by Groundspeak:-

We truly commend the Hampshire County Council on being the first land owning/managing authority to take such a progressive step. It will undoubtedly be a benefit to all.

'nuff said.

"Woof" quoth he. Oh, and "Grrr" also.

Omally

August 3, 2003

I have apologised to Moss T by email but feel that I ought to do it publically as well.

Moss, I don't have any vedetta against anyone in geocaching as a whole, the admin of any site, nor with any member of the GAGB either at committee, founder, or normal member.

As I said in my email to you, I seem to have a problem with comunication on this medium and I need to improve that.

I would like to apologise for any stress, aggravation, or hurt I have caused you over this recent debate or in the past.

By the way, I'll be in your neck of the woods mid August, maybe I could buy you a pint and start some kind of reconsilliation.

Kev

August 3, 2003

Fair play to you Kev, takes a big man to make a public apology like that.

I know some of your views are not held dear by quite a few cachers, and the way you put things across does upset folks, but it would be boring if we agreed all the time wouldn't it?

Perhaps the "think twice before posting once" notion might save a few ego-bruises all round. This applies to me as well, before anyone suggests I'm preaching here...

"Woof" quoth he. Oh, and "Grrr" also.

Omally

August 3, 2003

Appology Accepted Kev..

As I said in my e-mail You have always said your piece as you.. not come in under an assumed name..

To clear a point, the vendetta comment was actually not aimed at you.. and if you thought so for that I appologies..

As for the drink.. sorry I can't.. I'll be sunning my self in Ireland!!!!!!

Now I will nip back doon me hole.. opthe sorry!! can't do that.. against the guidelines !!!!!!!

Moss the Boss... Sorta

August 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Moss Trooper:
As for the drink.. sorry I can't.. I'll be sunning my self in Ireland!!!!!!

Maybe next time.

August 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Icenians:

By the way, I'll be in your neck of the woods mid August, maybe I could buy you a pint and start some kind of reconsilliation.

Kev

ARE YOU LOOKING FOR CACHES THAT ARE ON Geocaching .com or navicache? just remember that you removed all your caches from Geocaching. com, so I hope you dont have the cheek to find any of mine that are listed on Geocaching.com cos I will just delete your log. and thats what I feel towards a person like you

geocaching's biggest trouble maker to date. your the main reason that I have also just about thrown in the towel.But having said that I would still buy you a pint, of Bulls milk that is.

Nige

The Northumbrian is a member of The Geocaching Association of Great Britain

August 3, 2003

Well, I have to say this is my first time at reading what's going on in the forums (or should I say 'fora' - Omally, your Latin isn't totally correct but I do understand it to mean Don't let the bastards grind you down!). There seems to be a lot of anger between a number of people and I really don't understand why. The way I read this is that perfectly adult men are reacting like my 8-year old nephew when his 10-year old sister gets the better of him. Hey guys! Chill out. Geocaching is a fun hobby, a great excuse to go out for a walk in beautiful countryside and, if you're anything like Paul and me, an excuse (reason) to visit the fine public houses in the area.

Moss, I do hope you don't give up geocaching for good.

To Moss and Icenians, thanks for having the courage to apologise publicly on the web (an honourable deed indeed).

Judith (one half of Paul and Judith!)

August 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Paradise:

Who's to say there guidelines were or were not endorsed my GC.com ?...

Oh I totally agree. And thats why I said in my post "Unless of course Jeremy Irish has a differenmt view"...

It was to cover myself for the possibility that indeed GC.Com had xchanged teh rules officially without us being informed.

1.2k · August 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Northumbrian:

so I hope you dont have the cheek to find any of mine that are listed on Geocaching.com cos I will just delete your log. and thats what I feel towards a person like you

Hmm! Nice guy. I seem to recall another thread by this person that was so offensive it had to be deleted.

Don't wast you money on a pint Kev. Some you win, some you lose. In this case you are on a hiding to nothing.

Peter

_________________________________________________________

Enthusiastic user of GeocacheUK - Information, not control.

It is better to regret something you did, rather than to regret something you didn't do.

_________________________________________________________

August 4, 2003

I will add that Northumbrian is not speaking on my behalf..

Moss the Boss... Sorta

August 4, 2003

quote:
so I hope you dont have the cheek to find any of mine that are listed on Geocaching.com cos I will just delete your log.

Naaa. I'm just on holiday. There are no N*vic*che caches up there. I'll pass on the pint though.

Kev

August 5, 2003

It's a shame you feel the way you do Icenians, as you were instrumental in sparking my interest in geocaching when I started last year. I found a couple of your caches and really got the bug after you emailed me with info about the travelbug football.

Geocaching, at the end of the day, should be a fun activity and politics aside, something everyone can enjoy.

I know it's not geocaching you have a problem with, but I do hope you continue to enjoy the sport in whichever way you find best.

Thanks for all of your help when I started geocaching.

August 5, 2003

I apologize to you all for what I have wrote, It was a heat of the moment thing, there are times when I write things and after a few hours realize that I have been offensive not just to one person but to all of you. I have totally over reacted to some of the things that the Icenians have wrote and offer my humble apologies, I seem to bite too much normally because I get the idea that people are out to disrupt this hobby, and I hate to see things knocked back by others towards a lot of very good people that have given a lot of time to only be of help towards the hobby.perhaps I should give things a few hours before I reply to topics. I know it's not much in the way of an apology but , again to those of you those I have offended, "sorry"

Nige

The Northumbrian is a member of The Geocaching Association of Great Britain

1.8k · August 5, 2003

I was so glad to see Northumbrian's apology and quite relieved as I know Nige to be a decent bloke with the interests of Geocaching at heart and while I at first reacted in the same way to Icenians am now finding Kev is coming over as a decent bloke too - I'd be delighted to buy both of you a pint of proper ale if we ever get together. Oh dear what have I done - that could lead to something expensive!

Member Geocaching Association of GB

August 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Northumbrian:
I apologize to you all for what I have wrote, It was a heat of the moment thing, there are times when I write things and after a few hours realize that I have been offensive not just to one person but to all of you. I have totally over reacted to some of the things that the Icenians have wrote and offer my humble apologies, I seem to bite too much normally because I get the idea that people are out to disrupt this hobby, and I hate to see things knocked back by others towards a lot of very good people that have given a lot of time to only be of help towards the hobby.perhaps I should give things a few hours before I reply to topics. I know it's not much in the way of an apology but , again to those of you those I have offended, "sorry"

Nige

The Northumbrian is a member of The Geocaching Association of Great Britain

I reckon I'm just as guilty at offending people and typing without due care and attention.

quote:
Originally posted by jstead:
I'd be delighted to buy both of you a pint of proper ale if we ever get together. Oh dear what have I done - that could lead to something expensive!

Now as it happens, I'm over your way as well soon.....

Right I really must clear off from here now as this isn't supposed to be my caching site.

August 5, 2003

Well done all 'round guys, let's keep it up eh?

"Woof" quoth he. Oh, and "Grrr" also.

Omally

August 5, 2003

One last thing. I found out today that Librans take arguements VERY seriously. Now can anyone guess my starsign?

I guess that makes it all my parents fault then!

As a project manager, it reassures me to know that my ability to blame others for my shortcomings is still intact!

August 5, 2003

If I could keep it up I wouldn't need the medicine..!!!!!

Oh! This isn't the Viagra thread of the Where do you put it Forum.. !!!

Moss the Boss... Sorta

I quit..

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