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INTRO APP users are killing the hobby


jshults (Rally Dude)
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May I suggest, on the create-a-cache page:

 

Make cache available to:

[ ] Premium/Charter Members only

[ ] All geocaching.com Members

[ ] Everyone - includes pre-loaded GPS units, phone apps, etc.

 

That middle option has been needed, IMHO, ever since the GeoMate Jr came out. It's about time, no?

 

This is exactly where I'm at. I want Geocachers to look for and find my caches, not someone playing the Smartphone game of the week.

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...especially the part about the instant gratification that people expect from their Smartphones, and the fact that they are willing to publicize every bit of there privacy. This is demonstrated by the fact that some are disappointed that the the INTRO app hasn't been totally redeveloped one month after we started complaining about it.

 

Is this aimed at me? :huh:

 

I don't know. What size shoe do you wear?

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...especially the part about the instant gratification that people expect from their Smartphones, and the fact that they are willing to publicize every bit of there privacy. This is demonstrated by the fact that some are disappointed that the the INTRO app hasn't been totally redeveloped one month after we started complaining about it.

 

Is this aimed at me? :huh:

 

I don't know. What size shoe do you wear?

 

Size 10.

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Oh my goodness. I have deleted at least 10 logs from one of my caches today. Same person. They keep logging it. I can't contact them ofcourse as there is no validated email address. Intro app user. This same person did the same thing on another of my caches a week or so ago. Obviously don't know what they are doing but no way to contact them. This is getting annoying. Wish they would change the into app to at least get a valid email address. However, they probably wouldn't read it as they obviously are not interested enough in the game to check further into it and get on the website. Hope this stops soon.

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Oh my goodness. I have deleted at least 10 logs from one of my caches today. Same person. They keep logging it. I can't contact them ofcourse as there is no validated email address. Intro app user. This same person did the same thing on another of my caches a week or so ago. Obviously don't know what they are doing but no way to contact them. This is getting annoying. Wish they would change the into app to at least get a valid email address. However, they probably wouldn't read it as they obviously are not interested enough in the game to check further into it and get on the website. Hope this stops soon.

Make your listing PMO for a few days after deleting the users log.

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...especially the part about the instant gratification that people expect from their Smartphones, and the fact that they are willing to publicize every bit of there privacy. This is demonstrated by the fact that some are disappointed that the the INTRO app hasn't been totally redeveloped one month after we started complaining about it.

 

Is this aimed at me? :huh:

I don't know...you tell us. ;)

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Not sure if the situation/thinkings identical (I'm the dyslexic one) but I agree with JesandTodd.

On one thread alone, I counted five within a few seconds, brand-new folks that were using the intro app, but were premium members.

 

That kinda messes up other's PMO plan...

Oh brother! That does throw a red wrench on the cache page. :blink: Waymarking looks better all the time. :D

I don't believe in contacting another member and explain geocaching to them. Most just find it insulting anyway. :(

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Users can be PM and still use the intro app..,

 

But would PMs not be more likely to be a bit more concerned about how they play the game and have a validated email address so they can be contacted?

The few I found in the intro forums didn't even know what premium membership was, so maybe not.

To be clear, the few on the forums obviously had a valid email to log in.

They somehow purchased three months premium instead of the full app.

Just last week another who bought the full app, didn't know if he wanted to buy the "intro premium" or premium membership.

So apparently wording's off in the app. I won't load it to look.

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Users can be PM and still use the intro app..,

 

But would PMs not be more likely to be a bit more concerned about how they play the game and have a validated email address so they can be contacted?

The few I found in the intro forums didn't even know what premium membership was, so maybe not.

To be clear, the few on the forums obviously had a valid email to log in.

They somehow purchased three months premium instead of the full app.

Just last week another who bought the full app, didn't know if he wanted to buy the "intro premium" or premium membership.

So apparently wording's off in the app. I won't load it to look.

My understanding is that without a PM both the Intro App and full App have limited capability due to daily limits on API usage being less for basic members than for PMs. If someone starts with the Intro App, they may not want to upgrade to the full app, but they may want to find more than three caches per day. Forgive me if this isn't the way it works, but that just shows that is could be very confusing to know just what you are paying for.

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Users can be PM and still use the intro app..,

 

But would PMs not be more likely to be a bit more concerned about how they play the game and have a validated email address so they can be contacted?

The few I found in the intro forums didn't even know what premium membership was, so maybe not.

To be clear, the few on the forums obviously had a valid email to log in.

They somehow purchased three months premium instead of the full app.

Just last week another who bought the full app, didn't know if he wanted to buy the "intro premium" or premium membership.

So apparently wording's off in the app. I won't load it to look.

My understanding is that without a PM both the Intro App and full App have limited capability due to daily limits on API usage being less for basic members than for PMs. If someone starts with the Intro App, they may not want to upgrade to the full app, but they may want to find more than three caches per day. Forgive me if this isn't the way it works, but that just shows that is could be very confusing to know just what you are paying for.

 

All with the problem in the intro forum wanted to simply buy the full app from within the intro app.

That shouldn't be too confusing...

Instead, they got 3 months PM, were then confused as heck and posted here.

 

In the first post explaining the intro app (intro forums) it still reads, "You can upgrade to Geocaching Premium from within the app".

I read it to say premium membership. Someone new probably wouldn't have any idea what the difference is.

That's a wording issue, not uncertainty.

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...especially the part about the instant gratification that people expect from their Smartphones, and the fact that they are willing to publicize every bit of there privacy. This is demonstrated by the fact that some are disappointed that the the INTRO app hasn't been totally redeveloped one month after we started complaining about it.

 

Is this aimed at me? :huh:

I don't know...you tell us. ;)

 

Crystal ball broken huh? :huh:

 

But not the wooden spoon I see :rolleyes:

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Well, I had my first real problem with an (I assume) Intro app user this week....Just had to archive one of my newest caches (GC4VFVE)and it hasn't even had any finds yet. I was first contacted by e-mail, then a couple of DNF logs, reporting that they couldn't find the cache but it looked like someone had been there already searching. The FIRST person to contact me said the area was already disturbed, so whoever did it apparently did not log their attempt. I disabled it until I could go check it out, and sure enough, there was evidence that someone had flipped, kicked, or otherwise displaced DOZENS of rocks at GZ...very large rocks, some of them as big as a canteloupe.

 

Now granted, my hide was a fake rock key holder among these rocks...but it wasn't a huge field of rocks, it was a 2-3 foot strip of rocks lining the concrete ramp of a boat launch. There were 3 particularly large rocks piled together that formed a natural little cave....an experienced cacher would have zeroed in on it instantly, plus the "fake" rock was a totally different color than all the others. It shouldn't have been too difficult. (The 3 rocks formation had also been dismantled and knocked over, such that I almost couldn't find the cache myself...but there it was, right where I had placed it)

 

Not wanting to see any more damage done, I archived the cache. Afterwards, I got to thinking that since most of the caches in that little town don't get visited very often, quite possibly I could pinpoint who had been caching in the area around that time. Sure enough, I found one particular person, who signed up on Dec. 21, had logged a couple of DNF's in the area on Dec. 22 (between the publication date and the first DNF I received). No one else had logged anything in the area during that time frame. This person looked to be an adolescent kid (from her profile picture...how can you have a profile picture posted without even visiting the site?)....NO finds recorded, NO e-mail address or contact info provided, NEVER visited the site. So I'm sure it was her. She really did a job on GZ....I was mortified that my cache had triggered such mayhem. I guess I could have changed it to PMO and added a couple of spoiler hints to alleviate any further disruption, but I felt that archival was the right thing to do.

 

So anyway, I have no way of contacting this kid...I'd like to maybe explain to her why what she did was wrong (not that she'd probably care), and maybe give her a nudge in the right direction. I don't know, maybe its better to let sleeping dogs lie, anyway...damage is already done. Plus I really can't prove it was her because she didn't log her visit. I hate to think she's going to get out there and terrorize other caches, though, out of ignorance. Just a really unpleasant experience yesterday :(

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Forgive me if i'm stupid, what is the problem with the Intro App in Chief's post?

 

It's not the app per se that is the problem....well, it's part of the problem. The app allows someone who knows NOTHING about Geocaching, other than that they've heard the word before, to download it and take off looking for caches. They've never visited the website, and so have never had even the opportunity to read some of the Knowledge Book articles, guidelines, or learn ANYTHING about the do's and don'ts of Geocaching. For crying out loud, some of them don't even understand that you're not supposed to TAKE the cache! (Yes, those people have showed up in the Forums from time to time)

 

To compound the problem, when problems arise from one of these uninformed people (like in the example I cited), even if someone experienced would be willing to contact them, take them under their wing and show them the ropes, you CAN'T, because they are not required to provide any contact information. So they just continue out there, bumbling around and mucking up caches. If we're lucky, they'll either lose interest and quit soon enough, or somehow catch on to what they're supposed to do.

 

Here's a suggestion, Groundspeak.....if you're not going to require an email address, for whatever reason, make it possible to send a user, ANY user, a message through the app. I know the app is not meant to be a social media tool, but it would be the only foolproof way to make contact with any user. Even if you required a validated email address, some people just have an email addy they use just for registering for stuff like this.....more and more these days, people don't use email at all, or have multiple addresses...one for actual email and one for "junk" stuff. They might never even look at their email. But if it was possible to contact them via the app, they'd have no choice but to see the message every time they use the app. Obviously they could choose not to reply, but at least a means of contact would be there.

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Forgive me if i'm stupid, what is the problem with the Intro App in Chief's post?

Simply put, the Intro-app requires nothing of the neophyte cacher regarding knowledge of geocaching. Indeed, many if not most don't even bother to verify their account -- rending any contact to/with them impossible.

 

They find the app (thinking it is a full-service app -- it isn't), load it and go caching without the slightest idea of what geocaching is about. The problem is exemplified in Chief's posting... (presumably) the neophyte loaded the app, brought up his cache, destroyed the GZ (well... certainly did not leave it as it was) and then apparently took the cache itself.

 

Pretty much what one would expect from a person that has no need/desire to find out what geocaching is about, first.

 

 

The concept [i think] behind the Intro-app is to tweek a person's interest in geocaching and allow them a "try geocaching" period before laying out money for the full app. Well, inasmuch as they cannot bother to find out about geocaching first, many don't even fathom that there may be guidelines, etiquette and the like governing the activity.

 

Aside from that, the Intro-app (unless the wording has been corrected by now) has other problems. The neophyte, now with their interest in geocaching tweeked, buys a Premium Membership, thinking that this would increase their benefit to use of that app. It doesn't... and, because they are clueless as to the forums, contacting others and/or Groundspeak, many see it as a rip-off -- some, may even go so far as to "revolt" and use that Intro-app as a tool to find geocaches and destroy same as a matter of spite.

 

As with most everything else in this world, some basic knowledge is required to engage in a new activity or career. The Intro-app, as it stands, negates that simple little step of requiring (at least some) knowledge. In other words -- "Have Phone, Go Geocaching" -- nothing else matters.

 

It is true that this type of thing happens occasionally with beginner's using the full app or even a GPSr, but the Intro-app has already demonstrated that it is compounding that somewhat rare occurrence.

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The problem is exemplified in Chief's posting... (presumably) the neophyte loaded the app, brought up his cache, destroyed the GZ (well... certainly did not leave it as it was) and then apparently took the cache itself.

 

To clarify, she didn't take the cache....it was still right where I placed it. She did knock down the 3 large rocks that comprised the hiding spot....she had to have practically had her hand on the cache. The reason later, more experienced cachers couldn't find it either, I think, was that the fairly obvious hiding spot (I've heard the term "beacon" used) had been obliterated and there was nothing there anymore to catch your attention. I had trouble finding it myself, with my landmark gone. I retrieved it, of course.

 

It is true that this type of thing happens occasionally with beginner's using the full app or even a GPSr, but the Intro-app has already demonstrated that it is compounding that somewhat rare occurrence.

 

There's a good chance that someone who has a handheld GPSr is already an outdoor enthusiast and therefore probably has a good measure of respect for their surroundings, leave no trace mindset, etc. So no problems with most of them. Full app users, well, $10 is a pretty hefty chunk to pay for a phone app...some refuse to buy it because the price is "outrageous"...at least as apps go. So most folks are going to think a bit before plunking down the 10 bucks....do a little study beforehand...."Is this an app I'm really going to use? What more is involved in this "Geocaching" thing? Am I going to study up and really learn how to play this game, and stick with it for awhile?" Intro app, though, no commitment necessary. Really appeals to the I want it free, I want it now, make it easy for me instant gratification crowd. Download the app and off you go, no knowledge required.

 

And in the case of my cache above, extend that entitlement mindset to the field, at the cache site....I want my prize, someone said it's here so I'm entitled to find it, no matter how much damage I do in the process or how much it ruins the game for those who come after me or the black eye it gives to Geocaching in general because, hey, it's just a silly game I'll play for an afternoon or two before I get bored and go back to playing Candy Crush" 😠

Edited by Chief301
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There's a good chance that someone who has a handheld GPSr is already an outdoor enthusiast and therefore probably has a good measure of respect for their surroundings, leave no trace mindset, etc. So no problems with most of them. Full app users, well, $10 is a pretty hefty chunk to pay for a phone app...some refuse to buy it because the price is "outrageous"...at least as apps go. So most folks are going to think a bit before plunking down the 10 bucks....do a little study beforehand...."Is this an app I'm really going to use? What more is involved in this "Geocaching" thing? Am I going to study up and really learn how to play this game, and stick with it for awhile?" Intro app, though, no commitment necessary. Really appeals to the I want it free, I want it now, make it easy for me instant gratification crowd. Download the app and off you go, no knowledge required.

 

That sums it up nicely. This isn't the type of game that a free app would benefit, unless all that was listed was disposable parking lot micros.

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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There's a good chance that someone who has a handheld GPSr is already an outdoor enthusiast and therefore probably has a good measure of respect for their surroundings, leave no trace mindset, etc. So no problems with most of them. Full app users, well, $10 is a pretty hefty chunk to pay for a phone app...some refuse to buy it because the price is "outrageous"...at least as apps go. So most folks are going to think a bit before plunking down the 10 bucks....do a little study beforehand...."Is this an app I'm really going to use? What more is involved in this "Geocaching" thing? Am I going to study up and really learn how to play this game, and stick with it for awhile?" Intro app, though, no commitment necessary. Really appeals to the I want it free, I want it now, make it easy for me instant gratification crowd. Download the app and off you go, no knowledge required.

 

That sums it up nicely. This isn't the type of game that a free app would benefit, unless all that was listed was disposable parking lot micros.

 

Nicely put.

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When I had about 50 finds I attended my first caching event.

 

One of the things to do during the event was a little competition to find 5 caches, and run back to the tent to get a prize.

 

I remember arriving at GZ and searching like mad! Then, an experienced cacher with 5k finds (this as 2009 in Az, so that's a lot of finds!, this person now has 15k)...anyhow, the very experienced cacher ran over, took her foot, slammed it sideways and knocked down all kinds of brush and palo verde trees. Just smashed them to the side, then stepped inside the smaller tree an d smashed down some branches. We were there for 5 mins looking, and she found it it under a min. Then ran off to another GZ. When we arrived at the other GZ, we saw other very experienced cachers stepping all over the palo verde branches to make a trail.

 

We were shocked.

 

Needless to say, all of the GZs that day were destroyed. All for temporary caches.

 

One of the things I see more than anything...is that the cachers with lots of finds don't log their DNFs as often as newbies.

 

I seek lots of newbie DNF logs. But then I see a group of cachers blaze through an area, find all the finds in that area except for one....and no DNF.

 

 

I guess...my experinces are quite different when it comes to GZ destruction, and DNFs. The above is only one of many, many examples.

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Free app or not, if you hide what some people might consider a needle-in-the-haystack style hide, you will get someone who will do a scorched-earth style search.

 

While one would hope that geocachers would approach difficult hides with a careful search and not destroy the area looking for the cache, it is unfortunate that some people don't behave properly. It may be that the intro app attracts more of these careless people, but they exist whether there is a free app or not.

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I'm not convinced that the intro app, in and of itself, has any power to attract scorched earth cachers. We are humans, and in any given group of humans you'll find a percentage who believe they must succeed, (however they measure success), at any cost, even if that means destroying the environment. I think the real problem with the intro app is that it offers no means of correcting such behavior.

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I'm not convinced that the intro app, in and of itself, has any power to attract scorched earth cachers. We are humans, and in any given group of humans you'll find a percentage who believe they must succeed, (however they measure success), at any cost, even if that means destroying the environment. I think the real problem with the intro app is that it offers no means of correcting such behavior.

 

^^^ This

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... Just had to archive one of my newest caches (GC4VFVE)and it hasn't even had any finds yet... the area was already disturbed, so whoever did it apparently did not log their attempt... Not wanting to see any more damage done, I archived the cache.... I have no way of contacting this kid... I'd like to maybe explain to her why what she did was wrong (not that she'd probably care), and maybe give her a nudge in the right direction...

 

This is exactly why I think that CO's should have to opt-in to having their caches listed in the intro app.

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I'm not convinced that the intro app, in and of itself, has any power to attract scorched earth cachers. We are humans, and in any given group of humans you'll find a percentage who believe they must succeed, (however they measure success), at any cost, even if that means destroying the environment. I think the real problem with the intro app is that it offers no means of correcting such behavior.

So maybe the intro app offers no means to correct bad behavior. I don't see that using a hand held GPS and logging through the website does this any better.

 

Suppose a newb with a hand held GPS, signs up on Geocaching.com and starts finding caches. They even log all their finds. One day they go to a cache site to discover it's a needle-in-the-haystack. So they tear up the area searching and DNF the cache. However, they don't bother logging the DNF - because some people just don't see the point in logging a failed search. How do you identify this person as the one who did damage? Or let's say they find the cache and log "TFTC". Can you prove that they were the ones who did the damage?

 

I think Intro App users are simply an easy target to blame for any problems. Trouble is that all these problems existed long before there was an Intro App.

 

Groundspeak may have statistics to show these problems are worse since the Intro App or worse in areas with higher numbers of Intro App users. I don't suspect that will be shared. All I see is speculation or anecdotes. Hey, there's a new group to blame for all our woes.

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I'm not convinced that the intro app, in and of itself, has any power to attract scorched earth cachers. We are humans, and in any given group of humans you'll find a percentage who believe they must succeed, (however they measure success), at any cost, even if that means destroying the environment. I think the real problem with the intro app is that it offers no means of correcting such behavior.

 

I suppose that if we aren't going to be given tools to help correct this behavior we should at least be able to track it in an attempt to prevent it. The intro app should automatically make two kinds of log entries that can not be edited or deleted by the intro app user.

 

The first is a note log whenever an app user is in the vivacity of a cache. This will allow us know when an intro app user has visited a cache and will hopefully reduce the "witch-hunts" when someone does something inappropriate at a cache location. I suppose after a predetermined time or after a predetermined distance the log could be automatically changed to a DNF log if a Found It log isn't made.

 

There are some caches that are just not appropriate for beginners. If we aren't going to be able to opt-out of having our listing viable in the intro app then there needs be an audit log similar to the audit log for PMO caches. This way a CO can gauge how much interest his cache is getting from the intro app community. This will allow the CO to maintain or alter the cache and cache area appropriately or choose to archive the cache before any serious issues arise.

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I'm not convinced that the intro app, in and of itself, has any power to attract scorched earth cachers. We are humans, and in any given group of humans you'll find a percentage who believe they must succeed, (however they measure success), at any cost, even if that means destroying the environment. I think the real problem with the intro app is that it offers no means of correcting such behavior.

 

I suppose that if we aren't going to be given tools to help correct this behavior we should at least be able to track it in an attempt to prevent it. The intro app should automatically make two kinds of log entries that can not be edited or deleted by the intro app user.

 

The first is a note log whenever an app user is in the vivacity of a cache. This will allow us know when an intro app user has visited a cache and will hopefully reduce the "witch-hunts" when someone does something inappropriate at a cache location. I suppose after a predetermined time or after a predetermined distance the log could be automatically changed to a DNF log if a Found It log isn't made.

 

There are some caches that are just not appropriate for beginners. If we aren't going to be able to opt-out of having our listing viable in the intro app then there needs be an audit log similar to the audit log for PMO caches. This way a CO can gauge how much interest his cache is getting from the intro app community. This will allow the CO to maintain or alter the cache and cache area appropriately or choose to archive the cache before any serious issues arise.

 

There is a way to opt out. Make your cache PMO.

 

As far as the scorched Earth story that bumped this topic, a fake rock in a rock field should be probably be rated a D2-2.5, which would exclude it from the list of available caches for the Intro cache.

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I'm not convinced that the intro app, in and of itself, has any power to attract scorched earth cachers. We are humans, and in any given group of humans you'll find a percentage who believe they must succeed, (however they measure success), at any cost, even if that means destroying the environment. I think the real problem with the intro app is that it offers no means of correcting such behavior.

 

I suppose that if we aren't going to be given tools to help correct this behavior we should at least be able to track it in an attempt to prevent it. The intro app should automatically make two kinds of log entries that can not be edited or deleted by the intro app user.

 

The first is a note log whenever an app user is in the vivacity of a cache. This will allow us know when an intro app user has visited a cache and will hopefully reduce the "witch-hunts" when someone does something inappropriate at a cache location. I suppose after a predetermined time or after a predetermined distance the log could be automatically changed to a DNF log if a Found It log isn't made.

 

There are some caches that are just not appropriate for beginners. If we aren't going to be able to opt-out of having our listing viable in the intro app then there needs be an audit log similar to the audit log for PMO caches. This way a CO can gauge how much interest his cache is getting from the intro app community. This will allow the CO to maintain or alter the cache and cache area appropriately or choose to archive the cache before any serious issues arise.

 

There is a way to opt out. Make your cache PMO.

 

As far as the scorched Earth story that bumped this topic, a fake rock in a rock field should be probably be rated a D2-2.5, which would exclude it from the list of available caches for the Intro cache.

Exactly. After a few of my listings were trashed by one user that geocached for a month and found less than 40 caches, I made my listings PMO and on my son's basic account he uses a higher D/T rating. Problem solved. :laughing:

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I'm not convinced that the intro app, in and of itself, has any power to attract scorched earth cachers. We are humans, and in any given group of humans you'll find a percentage who believe they must succeed, (however they measure success), at any cost, even if that means destroying the environment. I think the real problem with the intro app is that it offers no means of correcting such behavior.

 

I suppose that if we aren't going to be given tools to help correct this behavior we should at least be able to track it in an attempt to prevent it. The intro app should automatically make two kinds of log entries that can not be edited or deleted by the intro app user.

 

The first is a note log whenever an app user is in the vivacity of a cache. This will allow us know when an intro app user has visited a cache and will hopefully reduce the "witch-hunts" when someone does something inappropriate at a cache location. I suppose after a predetermined time or after a predetermined distance the log could be automatically changed to a DNF log if a Found It log isn't made.

 

I assume when you said "vivacity" you meant "vicinity"? If so it doesn't necessarily provide anything useful because if we know that IveGotASillyMadeUpAndPossiblyOffensiveName was in the vicinity of a cache at any given time it still doesn't give us anything useful. All we know is that someone who is probably a bored teenager wandered past, may have trashed the area (but we can't prove it) and we still don't know anything about our curious individual other than their having precisely zero skin in the game.

 

Changing an "I was somewhere nearby" log to a DNF is also potentially unhelpful - changing it to a note would be more useful. A few DNFs suggest the cache might not be there and where there's no way of knowing whether a mystery user made any attempt to actually find the cache it would be better to write a Note to say they came through. To me this is akin to a cache I found some time back - I "found" it in the sense I could see it but at the same time didn't "find" it because it was 50 feet up a tree and I decided I was too fat to climb the tree. Because I hadn't reached the cache I didn't log a Find but because I could clearly see it was there it seemed silly to log a DNF. So I wrote a note to say I saw it but decided not to attempt it. It's equally valid to write a note to say "Saw the cache but so many people about I couldn't retrieve it" or "couldn't really look because the area is so busy". In a situation where we don't even know whether the user attempted a find and truly didn't find it, or walked through before realising they left the kettle on and rushed back home, even a Note is limited and so it might be better still to just email the owner to say that people have gone through potentially looking for the cache.

 

There are some caches that are just not appropriate for beginners. If we aren't going to be able to opt-out of having our listing viable in the intro app then there needs be an audit log similar to the audit log for PMO caches. This way a CO can gauge how much interest his cache is getting from the intro app community. This will allow the CO to maintain or alter the cache and cache area appropriately or choose to archive the cache before any serious issues arise.

 

I still think what I wrote a while back stands. We need everyone playing to have at least some skin in the game. If an intro app user can download a free app, provide an email address that isn't verified and then take off hunting they have no skin in the game at all. Those who hide caches have skin in the game - with few exceptions it takes at least some time, effort and often money to put a cache out there, so it creates an unbalanced situation where people have skin in the game to place the gamepieces so people with no skin in the game at all can go out and find and possibly trash them.

 

Perhaps the answer is to make the intro app only list micros with D and T of 1.5 or lower. If intro app users get used to finding film pots behind posts they won't be disappointed with the evolution of the game, and film pots are easier to replace than ammo cans.

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OK, this is ridiculous that people using the INTRO App don't have to have an e-mail OR an account. THAT IS CRAZY!!!! :surprise: People MUST record an e-mail address so people can contact them. Especially when they DESTROY the cache area! I have to say, Groundspeak needs to do something fast. SET SOME STANDARDS! The INTRO App is a hazard because when new people use it, they don't know what they are doing! And then nobody can tell them what's going on because they don't need an e-mail address. :blink:

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OK, this is ridiculous that people using the INTRO App don't have to have an e-mail OR an account. THAT IS CRAZY!!!! :surprise: People MUST record an e-mail address so people can contact them. Especially when they DESTROY the cache area! I have to say, Groundspeak needs to do something fast. SET SOME STANDARDS! The INTRO App is a hazard because when new people use it, they don't know what they are doing! And then nobody can tell them what's going on because they don't need an e-mail address. :blink:

 

Yep.

 

And now this thread is TWO months old and I've yet to see any real measurable action from Groundspeak :blink:

 

We must be due by now another happy-clappy message about how wonderful we all are and how Groundspeak love to hear all of our ideas - right before they carry on not doing anything at all about the problem? :ph34r:

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Exactly! Come ON Groundspeak! You have seen the issue, opinions, ALL the ideas that ever will be thought of, and you can see what people think. TAKE ACTION! It has been TWO MONTHS! :mad:

they have also seen 100000+ downloads of their PAID app from the android play store (no idea how many from the Apple crowd)so theres a million bucks. plus the number of paid memberships they get and no telling how much they pull in on trackables and other things from geo-sales. bottom line is its a business first. the intro app is a gateway app. a gateway to paid apps, memberships and sales. so while they may get around to some kind of token effort, don't hold your breath. now, convince about 75% of their PAID subscribers to stop paying, and they would start paying attention real quick. but since that won't happen, po caches and higher d/t combos will have to do for now
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I'm not convinced that the intro app, in and of itself, has any power to attract scorched earth cachers. We are humans, and in any given group of humans you'll find a percentage who believe they must succeed, (however they measure success), at any cost, even if that means destroying the environment. I think the real problem with the intro app is that it offers no means of correcting such behavior.

Hey, we agree! :grin:

 

Groundspeak may have statistics to show these problems are worse since the Intro App or worse in areas with higher numbers of Intro App users. I don't suspect that will be shared. All I see is speculation or anecdotes. Hey, there's a new group to blame for all our woes.

Yep, you'll get factions who can actively take action against another faction. Intro app users are only smartphone users. Allowing owners to opt out of being seen by intro app/smartphone-only eyes 1) doesn't solve the actual problem and 2) cuts out a significantly growing portion of their target demographic. What happens if/when a 'bad' 'beginner' continues and upgrades to the full app, or buys a gps? Suddenly all those other caches they haven't destroyed become available anyway. And they're still a bad cacher.

 

This is exactly why I think that CO's should have to opt-in to having their caches listed in the intro app.

First, making changes to cache availability properties specific to the Intro app is not going to help at all. There are numerous apps that may produce 'beginner' cachers, and those apps could just as well benefit from knowing this cache property.

This is why cache search results on gc.com have the 'Highlight beginner caches' option. Make this concept available to apps as well, and that'll be MUCH more helpful, imo. The apps have the choice to show them as beginner-friendly, or hide them completely (as the intro app(s) should do)

 

The problem is how to define a 'beginner cache'.

 

And the problem with opting out of "show my cache in the intro app" is that you'll have swaths of high&mighty GPSr owners who on principle will always check that box because omgsmartphones! That goes against Groundspeak's interest and doesn't directly address the issue.

Having it as a property indicated by "show my cache as beginner friendly" with the ability to opt out at least implies everyone regardless of geocaching device/tool can be affected. You'll still have people who on principle will toggle it because they never want them pesky beginners (getoffmylawn!) to go ruining their cache (even though 'beginners' aren't the problem - only bad beginners - and bad veterans).

 

There's no single method to fairly solve the problem across the board, worldwide. But a 'beginner friendly' property (dare I say, as I described earlier in the thread, a favpoint-like rating system which also becomes region-friendly) that owners can opt out of entirely, is still, I think, the fairest and most useful means of reducing the problem, and actually provides additional value with search filtering for 'beginner friendliness' rating, like favorite points.

 

The issues with the Intro App(s) must be dealt with in the context of its own usability and instruction to beginners (whether GS's apps, or any third party apps). And user profiles should require a verified email address before use.

 

Making a site-wide feature change that visibly and explicitly only affects Intro App users is a Bad Idea.

Edited by thebruce0
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There is a way to opt out. Make your cache PMO.

 

As far as the scorched Earth story that bumped this topic, a fake rock in a rock field should be probably be rated a D2-2.5, which would exclude it from the list of available caches for the Intro cache.

Exactly. After a few of my listings were trashed by one user that geocached for a month and found less than 40 caches, I made my listings PMO and on my son's basic account he uses a higher D/T rating. Problem solved. :laughing:

 

I wish that cache owners were given more information about the intro app. I don't care enough to download the intro app and play around with it and I suspect many others feel the same way. So a lot of the "features" are unknown. From what I read here I though that the intro app displays all of caches nearest to the intro app user except for PMO caches. Now I learned that higher D/T rating caches aren't displayed for intro app users. Do we know at what level the cut off is? Is it just D or just T or combination of both? This information would be very helpful when deciding what D/T ratings to give new caches.

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And user profiles should require a verified email address before use. "thebruce0"

 

I agree with that. The Intro App NEEDS to be better. You don't neccessarily have to get rid of it. I'm just thinking that something drastic needs to be done. But it also needs to be done QUICKLY, this issue has lasted too long. Please fix it ASAP!

Edited by cachman9
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I assume when you said "vivacity" you meant "vicinity"?

 

Yep, it was a typo/auto-correct error. Although vivacity does kinda fit the situation too.

 

If so it doesn't necessarily provide anything useful because if we know that IveGotASillyMadeUpAndPossiblyOffensiveName was in the vicinity of a cache at any given time it still doesn't give us anything useful. All we know is that someone who is probably a bored teenager wandered past, may have trashed the area (but we can't prove it) and we still don't know anything about our curious individual other than their having precisely zero skin in the game.

 

If you have the cache pulled up on the app and you are within' a couple of feet of the cache you certainly are not just wandering past. Anyone with a GPS in hand and that are within' a couple of feet of a cache that they are viewing should be making some kind of log entry whither it be a Note, DNF, NM, SBA, Found It, etc. The intro app should help out new users by at the very least prompting them to leave a note and possibly even do it for them if they neglect to do it themselves. Just because handheld GPS users are able to visit a cache and not make any log entries doesn't mean that it right to do so.

 

Changing an "I was somewhere nearby" log to a DNF is also potentially unhelpful - changing it to a note would be more useful. A few DNFs suggest the cache might not be there and where there's no way of knowing whether a mystery user made any attempt to actually find the cache it would be better to write a Note to say they came through. To me this is akin to a cache I found some time back - I "found" it in the sense I could see it but at the same time didn't "find" it because it was 50 feet up a tree and I decided I was too fat to climb the tree. Because I hadn't reached the cache I didn't log a Find but because I could clearly see it was there it seemed silly to log a DNF. So I wrote a note to say I saw it but decided not to attempt it. It's equally valid to write a note to say "Saw the cache but so many people about I couldn't retrieve it" or "couldn't really look because the area is so busy". In a situation where we don't even know whether the user attempted a find and truly didn't find it, or walked through before realising they left the kettle on and rushed back home, even a Note is limited and so it might be better still to just email the owner to say that people have gone through potentially looking for the cache...

 

I agree. Anything is better than nothing. Intro app users need to be encouraged to make log entries in order to develop good caching habits. If we aren't going to be given the tools to be able to mentor them then the Intro app should be changed to do this.

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Exactly! Come ON Groundspeak! You have seen the issue, opinions, ALL the ideas that ever will be thought of, and you can see what people think. TAKE ACTION! It has been TWO MONTHS! :mad:

 

Still no reply from moderators. I have PM'd 3 of them. I wonder if they have the day off.

 

They are probably scratching their heads wondering why someone with 17 finds over 3 years is so animated over this issue. :D

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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I wish that cache owners were given more information about the intro app. I don't care enough to download the intro app and play around with it and I suspect many others feel the same way. So a lot of the "features" are unknown. From what I read here I though that the intro app displays all of caches nearest to the intro app user except for PMO caches. Now I learned that higher D/T rating caches aren't displayed for intro app users. Do we know at what level the cut off is? Is it just D or just T or combination of both? This information would be very helpful when deciding what D/T ratings to give new caches.

Last mentioned :

Suggested caches include this filtering:

•Traditionals only

 

•5 mile radius of user's location

 

•No premium member caches (unless the user is premium)

 

•Terrain 1-3

 

•Difficulty 1-2

 

•Small, Regular, Large, and Micro (only D1-1.5)

 

•Caches without NM or NA logs

 

•Caches found in the last 300 days

 

Once the caches have been flagged as good for a newbie, they are then sorted by:

•Last found date

 

•Size (large>small>micro)

 

•Favorite points (highest to lowest

 

A terrain of three is rare for me to find now, so in my area, if we have any intro users, pretty-much everything here's fair game.

I don't believe too many will be rushing out and placing higher terrain (difficulty maybe) just because of this app.

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Still no reply from moderators. I have PM'd 3 of them. I wonder if they have the day off.

As I said when replying to your PM, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the role a volunteer forum moderator plays. Do not spam individual moderators with messages begging us to make Groundspeak do something.

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Exactly! Come ON Groundspeak! You have seen the issue, opinions, ALL the ideas that ever will be thought of, and you can see what people think. TAKE ACTION! It has been TWO MONTHS! :mad:

 

Still no reply from moderators. I have PM'd 3 of them. I wonder if they have the day off.

 

They are probably scratching their heads wondering why someone with 17 finds over 3 years is so animated over this issue. :D

 

There comes the insult.

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