+Walts Hunting Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 NFC stands for Near Field Communication. You have probably seen the ads for phones equipped with it. The most recent is the guy getting in a cab to go to the airport and his daughters transfer a video from mom's phone to his (she also does). This system is going to become more and more common as time goes on. I recently attempted to publish a cache using this. The seeker would have to have a phone with that capability to read the tag which would direct them to the cache. There are more than you think. http://www.nfcworld.com/nfc-phones-list/ The reviewer wrote back that the froggie had only allowed ten in the world while they evaluate this. I don't see why it really needs review. It is no different than needing a specific device to do a chirp or Wherigo. So what are your thoughts on whether this type should be allowed. Quote Link to comment
+RebelTJ Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 http://coord.info/GC3WK7B Quote Link to comment
+Planet Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Sounds like it can only be found by people with a certain type of phone. And that's not very fair to the ones who don't have it. Sure, yeah, special equipment and all that, but now it's just getting way too specialized between chirps, and QR codes and this and that, it's diversifying away from the intent of game, in my own opinion, to use GPS and satellites to find the cache. After seeing the write up on that posted cache, and reading the logs, I am way less interested in this kind of cache. I would not seek it out. Quote Link to comment
+T.D.M.22 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 because other equipment(a phone capable of this) is required. Wherigo is not a geocache which is why it is allowed. As for the chirp-taken from Knowledge books; "If the cache owner does not provide an alternative means of finding the cache, it must be listed as an Unknown cache." It may be possible to list yours as an unknown cache but you said it yourself The reviewer wrote back that the froggie had only allowed ten in the world while they evaluate this. I don't see why it really needs review. It is no different than needing a specific device to do a chirp or Wherigo. So you'll just have to wait, however I can see the problem being with having a device capable of that. It's not like QR codes where you only need to download a free app, you need a whole new device. I'm not going to pay $300 for a phone with that after I just got a new phone that works perfectly. However in the future years when it becomes more common it may be allowed. Quote Link to comment
+chillypenguin Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I have created a bookmark list of all of the NFC Caches that I could find. If you know of any that I have missed or want your own added, please send me a message via my profile (not a forum PM) or post up the details here. Quote Link to comment
team tisri Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 So what are your thoughts on whether this type should be allowed. My question would be whether NFC caches added something unique to the game that made the cache interesting to find in a way that wouldn't be possible without using NFC, or if it's just a new toy that excludes people who don't have an expensive mobile phone in addition to their GPS. If it's a way of making a cache more interesting I'd accept it even though I personally don't own an NFC device and have no particular plans to acquire one. If it's just a way of making a cache impossible to find unless someone buys another device I'd have to say it's pointless. The way the "unknown" category is going it seems that unless something is reined in it won't be long before finding things with the ? icon will require one or more of an Android smartphone, an iPhone, a Windows phone, maybe a tablet, internet access in the field, a GPS that is Chirp-enabled etc. If the only thing the NFC cache achieves is excluding people who don't own a particular device you might as well make it a puzzle but with an ALR to post a recent bank statement showing a specific minimum balance. Quote Link to comment
+Walts Hunting Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 Every time a step is taken forward someone is left behind and has to catch up. Quote Link to comment
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Every time a step is taken forward someone is left behind and has to catch up. No need for me to catch up as I will just devote my time and efforts to those thing I enjoy and can afford. I can not afford to spoil my free time in the outdoors with a worthless piece of social junk. I get in the outdoors to get away having to deal with those that can't even turn off their phones while at a check-stand in a store. Thanks, but No Thanks, John Quote Link to comment
+NeverSummer Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Why couldn't these just be published as a D5 cache? I don't have scuba gear, so I can't get those. (Nor do I have the training to scuba dive, even if I borrowed equipment.) Geocaching started out loving inovation. Can't see what a problem would be, save the necessary equipment. Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Every time a step is taken forward someone is left behind and has to catch up. I assume gc.com would prefer to evaluate the likelihood of new technology being of interest in the world of geocaching before giving it a full-level of site support. or not. Quote Link to comment
+dprovan Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I don't have one, but I don't mind a puzzle cache requiring one. I've seen several puzzle caches requiring special electronic equipment, so I don't see why this should be treated differently. That being said, I don't mind if they want to spend a little time getting some experience with a limited number first in case they turn out to be a serious problem for some reason. Quote Link to comment
team tisri Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Every time a step is taken forward someone is left behind and has to catch up. The question is whether something really is a step forward in terms of progress or just a way of leaving people behind. If the former then the fact some are slower to catch up is just one of those things; if the latter it seems to be pointless. Ultimately the question remains, does an NFC cache add anything to the caching experience over and above the chance to use a new toy? If not, what purpose does it serve? Quote Link to comment
team tisri Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Why couldn't these just be published as a D5 cache? I don't have scuba gear, so I can't get those. (Nor do I have the training to scuba dive, even if I borrowed equipment.) Geocaching started out loving inovation. Can't see what a problem would be, save the necessary equipment. I see a significant difference here. If a cache is placed such that it needs scuba gear, or climbing gear, or whatever, it combines two hobbies - namely geocaching and scuba diving, or geocaching and climbing. The fact not everybody will find a cache 200 feet down a rock face isn't so much the issue simply because not everybody is capable of abseiling and not everybody is interested in abseiling. Those that are will have the gear to do it. Using an NFC chip doesn't play into an alternative hobby, unless there are people out there running around with NFC readers beeping them on everything to see what they can find (I suppose it's possible but it seems unlikely). So the issue isn't so much a question of "do you like rock climbing?" as much as it's "do you have an expensive cellphone?" Personally I'm not into hardcore rock climbing so a cache up a sheer face might as well be on the moon as far as I'm concerned. That said such a cache represents a challenge to retrieve which some people may wish to attempt. A cache that simply requires this or that electronic gizmo is exclusive in a way that doesn't present a challenge, merely tests the cacher's ability and inclination to throw money at the game. Quote Link to comment
+irisisleuk Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 In general I would say that I don't see any reason why NFC caches shouldn't be allowed. As long as it's clear from the cache page that you need a special tool everything is fine. As long as I can decide before I arrive at ground zero whether the cache is interesting/suitable for me, there is no difference to other caches. It would be different if I had travelled a long way and would then discover that my basic geocaching backpack filled with all kinds of tools wouldn't be enough. There are all sorts of caches where I need special tools, why make a difference between tools that need a battery and those that don't? We've done caches where you need a chirp device, wifi, Rfid, a radio etc. We've done Wherigo caches before we had a smartphone, simply by joining another geocacher who had a Wherigo enabled gps. If you don't own the special tool, there is always the geocaching community, so no need to spend a lot of money at times you can't afford it. Now we own a smartphone, and we can do Wherigo's on our own. It would have been silly if Wherigo cache owners had to wait till everybody owned a smartphone before they could publish their first Wherigo. NFC is just another technique and eventually everybody will have a phone which is NFC compatible. For some this is within reach today, for others it might take a few years. But the advancement of using different technologies, ideas, creativity that might eventually lead to a completely different experience, should not be blocked with arguments that it isn't available to all or that it doesn't add anything. Having said all this, doesn't mean every technology should be allowed without setting limits, trial period of testing in the field whether there might be other reasons not to allow certain developments with caches. A reason not to implement NFC caches might be for instance the risk involved for your smartphone. If I've understand correctly, a NFC can be used to install malware on the phone. With other caches it is not allowed that you have to install software to solve the cache, so our computers won't get harmed. Something similar has to be in place to avoid the abuse of NFC. As long as these issues are researched by Groundspeak and trials are done with a limited number of caches, there is no other reason I can think of blocking any form of creativity in trying something different. Quote Link to comment
AZcachemeister Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I say they're fine! Go for it. I'll deal with them the same way I plan to deal with a CHIRP, should I ever get close to one. Quote Link to comment
team tisri Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Now we own a smartphone, and we can do Wherigo's on our own. It would have been silly if Wherigo cache owners had to wait till everybody owned a smartphone before they could publish their first Wherigo. Given Wherigo seems to have all but died it might have been better if they had been delayed until more people owned a smartphone. Wherigo is a pretty good example of not doing something just because it's possible - as it stands it appears the official Wherigo builder is still in an alpha state, some GPS units support Wherigo but more recent units don't as Garmin gave up on it, and there are so few of them out there it would probably have been better had Groundspeak thought it through in more detail and then decided to either do it or not do it, rather than kind of do it half-heartedly. NFC is just another technique and eventually everybody will have a phone which is NFC compatible. For some this is within reach today, for others it might take a few years. But the advancement of using different technologies, ideas, creativity that might eventually lead to a completely different experience, should not be blocked with arguments that it isn't available to all or that it doesn't add anything. The fact something isn't available to everyone doesn't trouble me in the slightest. Geocaching isn't available to those who don't have a GPS, the majority of caches are inaccessible to wheelchair users, and the caches at the top of tall trees are inaccessible to people like me who are overweight and dislike climbing trees. Since there's so much discussion on cache quality the question I'd ask is whether a new development makes caching more fun or not. If it does, if it introduces a new kind of challenge, if it makes new places open to geocaches, then I'm in favour and the fact not everybody can enjoy the new fun is just part of the price of progress. It would be nice to see some arguments in favour of it that go beyond "because we can", it would be nice to see some suggested ways that an NFC cache would be a better experience than a similar cache that didn't use an NFC device. Quote Link to comment
+niraD Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 It seems to me that NFC caches are why there isn't a Garmin chirp attribute, but instead there's a generic Wireless Beacon attribute. Wireless Beacon Quote Link to comment
+Castle Mischief Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 (edited) Sounds like it can only be found by people with a certain type of phone. And that's not very fair to the ones who don't have it. Sure, yeah, special equipment and all that, but now it's just getting way too specialized between chirps, and QR codes and this and that, it's diversifying away from the intent of game, in my own opinion, to use GPS and satellites to find the cache. After seeing the write up on that posted cache, and reading the logs, I am way less interested in this kind of cache. I would not seek it out. Yes, special equipment and ALL that. Hider should NOT be obligated to place caches that absolutely everybody can find. EDIT: Added the "NOT". Oooooops. Edited December 14, 2012 by Castle Mischief Quote Link to comment
+maxx borchovski Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 There are caches out there that require spanners, water, rope, string, scuba gear, space craft... so why not add NFC to the list, I'm all for using any new technology. You can bet now that the banks are going forward with NFC payment systems, more and more phones will have the technology built in. I vote yes to NFC Quote Link to comment
+chillypenguin Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Absolutely of course they should be permitted. NFC is an up and coming technology, that we are going to see more and more in the coming months. It's been used in Passports for at least the last 5 years, and contactless payments for ~2 years. But its only just making into the mainstream. All the leading smartphone manufactures and now starting to include it in their new phones, that's not just the top of the range phones. Its not an elitist technology, the Tags only cost a couple of Dollars/Pounds/Euro's. CHRIP's are allowed which are expensive, limited to a single GPS manufacture and only on top end devices. So why not NFC Tags? What I do think is important, is that it is made clear on the cache page that you need a NFC reader / Smartphone with software. So that cachers don't waste time visiting GZ only to find they don't have the special equipment required. The NFC cache listings I have read so far, are only the tip of the iceberg, of the creative potential of this type of cache. Because of the low cost, you could have a trail made up of many Tags. Larger Tags could contain hints as well as Co-ords. You could even create a Wherigo style cache. Quote Link to comment
+Walts Hunting Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 Sounds like it can only be found by people with a certain type of phone. And that's not very fair to the ones who don't have it. Sure, yeah, special equipment and all that, but now it's just getting way too specialized between chirps, and QR codes and this and that, it's diversifying away from the intent of game, in my own opinion, to use GPS and satellites to find the cache. After seeing the write up on that posted cache, and reading the logs, I am way less interested in this kind of cache. I would not seek it out. Yes, special equipment and ALL that. Hider should be obligated to place caches that absolutely everybody can find. So caches that require a boat, climbing gear, QR Reader and of course that can't be reached from a wheel chair should be eliminated in your opinion Quote Link to comment
+UMainah Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Why have a "Wireless Beacon" Atribute if you aren't going to allow wireless technologies? NFC is getting more and more popular. It has many applications beyond just mobile banking, and geocaching could be one of these. NFC is incredibly more popular than Chirp(ANT) and millions of NFC capable devices are being sold each month. Quote Link to comment
+Castle Mischief Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Sounds like it can only be found by people with a certain type of phone. And that's not very fair to the ones who don't have it. Sure, yeah, special equipment and all that, but now it's just getting way too specialized between chirps, and QR codes and this and that, it's diversifying away from the intent of game, in my own opinion, to use GPS and satellites to find the cache. After seeing the write up on that posted cache, and reading the logs, I am way less interested in this kind of cache. I would not seek it out. Yes, special equipment and ALL that. Hider should be obligated to place caches that absolutely everybody can find. So caches that require a boat, climbing gear, QR Reader and of course that can't be reached from a wheel chair should be eliminated in your opinion Sorry, I left out the "NOT" that I just edited back in. I agree with you and the point you just made. Quote Link to comment
+NeverSummer Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) Why couldn't these just be published as a D5 cache? I don't have scuba gear, so I can't get those. (Nor do I have the training to scuba dive, even if I borrowed equipment.) Geocaching started out loving inovation. Can't see what a problem would be, save the necessary equipment. I see a significant difference here. If a cache is placed such that it needs scuba gear, or climbing gear, or whatever, it combines two hobbies - namely geocaching and scuba diving, or geocaching and climbing. The fact not everybody will find a cache 200 feet down a rock face isn't so much the issue simply because not everybody is capable of abseiling and not everybody is interested in abseiling. Those that are will have the gear to do it. Using an NFC chip doesn't play into an alternative hobby, unless there are people out there running around with NFC readers beeping them on everything to see what they can find (I suppose it's possible but it seems unlikely). So the issue isn't so much a question of "do you like rock climbing?" as much as it's "do you have an expensive cellphone?" Personally I'm not into hardcore rock climbing so a cache up a sheer face might as well be on the moon as far as I'm concerned. That said such a cache represents a challenge to retrieve which some people may wish to attempt. A cache that simply requires this or that electronic gizmo is exclusive in a way that doesn't present a challenge, merely tests the cacher's ability and inclination to throw money at the game. Geocaching itself is a hobby of technology use. Why would this cache type be any different than a TOTT, Chirp, scuba gear, climbing equipment, etc cache? It isn't. Phone technology is a hobby for some. Let's just call them plain old "techies". This type of cache is just as you say a climbing cache is for you. I wouldn't do the type the OP describes, but I also don't do scuba caches, Chirps or Whereigos. In the year 2000, you may as well have asked people, "Do you have an expensive piece of electronic equipment that talks to satellites and gives you a precise position?" Most would say "No!" This is no different. Don't get it twisted up, just because the game is more accessible now with comsumer GPS Edited December 14, 2012 by NeverSummer Quote Link to comment
+Walts Hunting Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 It is amazing what a difference one critical word can make Castle Mischief. We do get to typing along real fast sometimes. Quote Link to comment
+Don_J Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Absolutely of course they should be permitted. NFC is an up and coming technology, that we are going to see more and more in the coming months. It's been used in Passports for at least the last 5 years, and contactless payments for ~2 years. But its only just making into the mainstream. All the leading smartphone manufactures and now starting to include it in their new phones, that's not just the top of the range phones. Its not an elitist technology, the Tags only cost a couple of Dollars/Pounds/Euro's. CHRIP's are allowed which are expensive, limited to a single GPS manufacture and only on top end devices. So why not NFC Tags? What I do think is important, is that it is made clear on the cache page that you need a NFC reader / Smartphone with software. So that cachers don't waste time visiting GZ only to find they don't have the special equipment required. The NFC cache listings I have read so far, are only the tip of the iceberg, of the creative potential of this type of cache. Because of the low cost, you could have a trail made up of many Tags. Larger Tags could contain hints as well as Co-ords. You could even create a Wherigo style cache. This actually sounds really scary. The idea of thousands of unknown caches scattered everywhere. Locations that I will never have the technology to find, means that I would probably never be able to hide another cache. Take that away, and I'll probably go away. My 10 year old phone finally died the other day, so I bought a new one for $20. It makes and receives calls and texts, and stores phone numbers. That is all I will ever need a phone for. I have seen these things change peoples personalities, take away their individuality, make them neglect their children and crash their cars. There is a price for being "connected". I've been to Geo events were half the people were playing with their Smartphones for the entire event, taking pictures of their food and sending it to Facebook. I try to help a customer at work, and they make me wait while they yak on the phone. I hate the things and one of the reasons that I go hiking and geocaching in the mountains is to get away from them. I hope Groundspeak proceeds carefully here. I'm glad that they are testing it instead of taking the grey icon approach. Quote Link to comment
+geodarts Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) I can ignore NFC caches as easily as I ignore most other puzzles or caches that require special equipment that I do not have. They could be called "nearigo" or "nearzees." But with Apple having patented an alternative to NFC technology, perhaps NFC will be as much of a step forward as BetaMax. Edited December 14, 2012 by geodarts Quote Link to comment
+NeverSummer Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Absolutely of course they should be permitted. NFC is an up and coming technology, that we are going to see more and more in the coming months. It's been used in Passports for at least the last 5 years, and contactless payments for ~2 years. But its only just making into the mainstream. All the leading smartphone manufactures and now starting to include it in their new phones, that's not just the top of the range phones. Its not an elitist technology, the Tags only cost a couple of Dollars/Pounds/Euro's. CHRIP's are allowed which are expensive, limited to a single GPS manufacture and only on top end devices. So why not NFC Tags? What I do think is important, is that it is made clear on the cache page that you need a NFC reader / Smartphone with software. So that cachers don't waste time visiting GZ only to find they don't have the special equipment required. The NFC cache listings I have read so far, are only the tip of the iceberg, of the creative potential of this type of cache. Because of the low cost, you could have a trail made up of many Tags. Larger Tags could contain hints as well as Co-ords. You could even create a Wherigo style cache. This actually sounds really scary. The idea of thousands of unknown caches scattered everywhere. Locations that I will never have the technology to find, means that I would probably never be able to hide another cache. Take that away, and I'll probably go away. My 10 year old phone finally died the other day, so I bought a new one for $20. It makes and receives calls and texts, and stores phone numbers. That is all I will ever need a phone for. I have seen these things change peoples personalities, take away their individuality, make them neglect their children and crash their cars. There is a price for being "connected". I've been to Geo events were half the people were playing with their Smartphones for the entire event, taking pictures of their food and sending it to Facebook. I try to help a customer at work, and they make me wait while they yak on the phone. I hate the things and one of the reasons that I go hiking and geocaching in the mountains is to get away from them. I hope Groundspeak proceeds carefully here. I'm glad that they are testing it instead of taking the grey icon approach. I highly doubt this would become a new cache type. Nothing, however, would be wrong with making a D5 Multi or Puzzle/Unknown out of it. Special equip=D5, no? JM2C, and I'm not sure if the exchange rate is favorable Quote Link to comment
+Crow-T-Robot Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 It would be nice to see some arguments in favour of it that go beyond "because we can", it would be nice to see some suggested ways that an NFC cache would be a better experience than a similar cache that didn't use an NFC device. I know very little about NFC, so I'll base my answer off the commercial showing the wife sharing her kids videos with the father as he's in the cab. From that, it appears as though sharing files, even video files, is quick and painless. So, if a cache owner was inventive enough, they could figure out a way to embed video files, music files or just text files into an NFC tag and when you hovered your phone near the tag, you'd receive the files. Those files could be clues or maybe a video of the CO goofing off and then holding up a sign with the next coordinates...there are alot of possibilities. The NFC cache listings I have read so far, are only the tip of the iceberg, of the creative potential of this type of cache. Because of the low cost, you could have a trail made up of many Tags. Larger Tags could contain hints as well as Co-ords. You could even create a Wherigo style cache. I've taken a cursory look at building a Wherigo cartridge. Seeing how involved it seems to be, I've shelved the idea for now as I'm just not ready to invest the time to build a Wherigo. So, I'm not sure how limited a Wherigo is in terms of being able to use video/audio/text. The Wherigo's I've done have been pretty much photos, graphics and text only. If NFC technology could unlock that audio/video potential and "revive" the Wherigo style of cache, I'd love that. After I did my first Wherigo, I thought Groundspeak really missed the boat on not getting that game off the ground better. Maybe it was too ahead of its time and the limits and lack of available technology kept it an exclusive side game to those who had units capable of playing a cartridge. Add in how clumsy and un-user friendly the Wherigo was to build, it was doomed. Maybe we could see Wherigos reborn with better and easier to use technology. Quote Link to comment
+Don_J Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) Absolutely of course they should be permitted. NFC is an up and coming technology, that we are going to see more and more in the coming months. It's been used in Passports for at least the last 5 years, and contactless payments for ~2 years. But its only just making into the mainstream. All the leading smartphone manufactures and now starting to include it in their new phones, that's not just the top of the range phones. Its not an elitist technology, the Tags only cost a couple of Dollars/Pounds/Euro's. CHRIP's are allowed which are expensive, limited to a single GPS manufacture and only on top end devices. So why not NFC Tags? What I do think is important, is that it is made clear on the cache page that you need a NFC reader / Smartphone with software. So that cachers don't waste time visiting GZ only to find they don't have the special equipment required. The NFC cache listings I have read so far, are only the tip of the iceberg, of the creative potential of this type of cache. Because of the low cost, you could have a trail made up of many Tags. Larger Tags could contain hints as well as Co-ords. You could even create a Wherigo style cache. This actually sounds really scary. The idea of thousands of unknown caches scattered everywhere. Locations that I will never have the technology to find, means that I would probably never be able to hide another cache. Take that away, and I'll probably go away. My 10 year old phone finally died the other day, so I bought a new one for $20. It makes and receives calls and texts, and stores phone numbers. That is all I will ever need a phone for. I have seen these things change peoples personalities, take away their individuality, make them neglect their children and crash their cars. There is a price for being "connected". I've been to Geo events were half the people were playing with their Smartphones for the entire event, taking pictures of their food and sending it to Facebook. I try to help a customer at work, and they make me wait while they yak on the phone. I hate the things and one of the reasons that I go hiking and geocaching in the mountains is to get away from them. I hope Groundspeak proceeds carefully here. I'm glad that they are testing it instead of taking the grey icon approach. I highly doubt this would become a new cache type. Nothing, however, would be wrong with making a D5 Multi or Puzzle/Unknown out of it. Special equip=D5, no? JM2C, and I'm not sure if the exchange rate is favorable The thing that makes special equipment "special" is the fact that few people posses it or have the ability to use us. This means that there will always be a limited amount of caches that need it. My fear is that this new technology becomes the new fad and we get tens of thousands of physical caches with unknown locations. That would mean that the people that do not possess the technology would have an increasingly difficult time finding a clear area to place caches. The standard answer, find your location and email the reviewer to see if it is clear would begin to become a burden on the reviewers. The back and forth between reviewers and CO's who have already placed and submitted their caches, but have proximity issues with these new Smartphone only caches may become overwhelming. I simply don't want to see this move so quickly that it effectively phases out the core geocacher that can't afford, or simply doesn't embarrass the "connected" future, where your life revolves around your smartphone, as some others do. Edited December 14, 2012 by Don_J Quote Link to comment
+NeverSummer Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Absolutely of course they should be permitted. NFC is an up and coming technology, that we are going to see more and more in the coming months. It's been used in Passports for at least the last 5 years, and contactless payments for ~2 years. But its only just making into the mainstream. All the leading smartphone manufactures and now starting to include it in their new phones, that's not just the top of the range phones. Its not an elitist technology, the Tags only cost a couple of Dollars/Pounds/Euro's. CHRIP's are allowed which are expensive, limited to a single GPS manufacture and only on top end devices. So why not NFC Tags? What I do think is important, is that it is made clear on the cache page that you need a NFC reader / Smartphone with software. So that cachers don't waste time visiting GZ only to find they don't have the special equipment required. The NFC cache listings I have read so far, are only the tip of the iceberg, of the creative potential of this type of cache. Because of the low cost, you could have a trail made up of many Tags. Larger Tags could contain hints as well as Co-ords. You could even create a Wherigo style cache. This actually sounds really scary. The idea of thousands of unknown caches scattered everywhere. Locations that I will never have the technology to find, means that I would probably never be able to hide another cache. Take that away, and I'll probably go away. My 10 year old phone finally died the other day, so I bought a new one for $20. It makes and receives calls and texts, and stores phone numbers. That is all I will ever need a phone for. I have seen these things change peoples personalities, take away their individuality, make them neglect their children and crash their cars. There is a price for being "connected". I've been to Geo events were half the people were playing with their Smartphones for the entire event, taking pictures of their food and sending it to Facebook. I try to help a customer at work, and they make me wait while they yak on the phone. I hate the things and one of the reasons that I go hiking and geocaching in the mountains is to get away from them. I hope Groundspeak proceeds carefully here. I'm glad that they are testing it instead of taking the grey icon approach. I highly doubt this would become a new cache type. Nothing, however, would be wrong with making a D5 Multi or Puzzle/Unknown out of it. Special equip=D5, no? JM2C, and I'm not sure if the exchange rate is favorable The thing that makes special equipment "special" is the fact that few people posses it or have the ability to use us. This means that there will always be a limited amount of caches that need it. My fear is that this new technology becomes the new fad and we get tens of thousands of physical caches with unknown locations. That would mean that the people that do not possess the technology would have an increasingly difficult time finding a clear area to place caches. The standard answer, find your location and email the reviewer to see if it is clear would begin to become a burden on the reviewers. The back and forth between reviewers and CO's who have already placed and submitted their caches, but have proximity issues with these new Smartphone only caches may become overwhelming. I simply don't want to see this move so quickly that it effectively phases out the core geocacher that can't afford, or simply doesn't embarrass the "connected" future, where your life revolves around your smartphone, as some others do. I hear ya, believe me. But, I can't do Wherigo caches, so I ignore them. Some puzzles I can't do, but I've at least read the description to know what I can't do. I see this idea for a cache as no different than a multi or puzzle/unknown that we're already familiar with. The only thing that would make it as big as you worry would be if it possibly became a new cache type, officially. Again, I highly doubt that will happen. And, smartphone users will use their phones to do whatever they want, and other geocachers will keep using GPSrs. Heck, some don't use any of it. But, again, JM2C. Quote Link to comment
team tisri Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Why couldn't these just be published as a D5 cache? I don't have scuba gear, so I can't get those. (Nor do I have the training to scuba dive, even if I borrowed equipment.) Geocaching started out loving inovation. Can't see what a problem would be, save the necessary equipment. I see a significant difference here. If a cache is placed such that it needs scuba gear, or climbing gear, or whatever, it combines two hobbies - namely geocaching and scuba diving, or geocaching and climbing. The fact not everybody will find a cache 200 feet down a rock face isn't so much the issue simply because not everybody is capable of abseiling and not everybody is interested in abseiling. Those that are will have the gear to do it. Using an NFC chip doesn't play into an alternative hobby, unless there are people out there running around with NFC readers beeping them on everything to see what they can find (I suppose it's possible but it seems unlikely). So the issue isn't so much a question of "do you like rock climbing?" as much as it's "do you have an expensive cellphone?" Personally I'm not into hardcore rock climbing so a cache up a sheer face might as well be on the moon as far as I'm concerned. That said such a cache represents a challenge to retrieve which some people may wish to attempt. A cache that simply requires this or that electronic gizmo is exclusive in a way that doesn't present a challenge, merely tests the cacher's ability and inclination to throw money at the game. Geocaching itself is a hobby of technology use. Why would this cache type be any different than a TOTT, Chirp, scuba gear, climbing equipment, etc cache? It isn't. Phone technology is a hobby for some. Let's just call them plain old "techies". This type of cache is just as you say a climbing cache is for you. I wouldn't do the type the OP describes, but I also don't do scuba caches, Chirps or Whereigos. In the year 2000, you may as well have asked people, "Do you have an expensive piece of electronic equipment that talks to satellites and gives you a precise position?" Most would say "No!" This is no different. Don't get it twisted up, just because the game is more accessible now with comsumer GPS Interesting points, although I keep coming back to whether these things will make geocaching a more or less enjoyable experience. For the record I have yet to see any way a Chirp adds anything to the game, they just seem like an expensive doodad to nail to a tree to tell people where the next stage is, when they could just as easily have used some other means of conveying the information. I still don't really see NFC as being equivalent to climbing and diving type caches. At present I'm not into climbing tall trees or abseiling or other such things. That said if I had the chance to find such a cache under the supervision of someone who knew what they were doing I might decide to rise to the challenge, push my comfort zones, and attempt the cache. If I found it then I'd gain a definite feeling of achievement, not so much because of gaining a smiley but because of a specific achievement. I just don't see teaming up with someone who has a shiny new phone representing such a challenge. But that's just me, perhaps it will provide an avenue for social geocaching based on who has what equipment available. One thing to consider if NFC caches do go ahead is when it comes to filtering caches for pocket queries is this "wireless beacon" attribute. By the time we have the possibility of that beacon being wifi, bluetooth, Chirp, NFC, it ends up being impossible to filter out which caches are do-able with the technology an individual has and which are not. Whereas something like the "difficult climbing" or "significant hike" attributes are pretty clear what will be involved, the "wireless beacon" says nothing more than that there's some kind of radio device involved somewhere. Quote Link to comment
team tisri Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) It would be nice to see some arguments in favour of it that go beyond "because we can", it would be nice to see some suggested ways that an NFC cache would be a better experience than a similar cache that didn't use an NFC device. I know very little about NFC, so I'll base my answer off the commercial showing the wife sharing her kids videos with the father as he's in the cab. From that, it appears as though sharing files, even video files, is quick and painless. So, if a cache owner was inventive enough, they could figure out a way to embed video files, music files or just text files into an NFC tag and when you hovered your phone near the tag, you'd receive the files. Those files could be clues or maybe a video of the CO goofing off and then holding up a sign with the next coordinates...there are alot of possibilities. I don't know how much data you can put on an NFC device although the idea of being expected to load a file of unknown provenance onto my phone seems like just another reason not to do it. If the NFC device in the field beeped and told me the coordinates for the next stage that's one thing but if there's any chance of active content then it's hard to see people being too keen to just run whatever a random stranger puts out there - it would seem akin to clicking the link in the email I got from Svetlana this morning inviting me to view her pictures. The NFC cache listings I have read so far, are only the tip of the iceberg, of the creative potential of this type of cache. Because of the low cost, you could have a trail made up of many Tags. Larger Tags could contain hints as well as Co-ords. You could even create a Wherigo style cache. The Wherigo style cache is the best suggestion I've seen so far for why NFC might add something to the game. If there is a huge tidal wave of creative use for NFCs I'd love to see some ideas. Otherwise I can see them just turning into another derivative of film pots behind signs, except you have to beep an NFC tag on a sign to find out which sign is hiding the wet film pot. With something like the church micro series there's at least the chance to see a pretty church along the way. I fear NFC caches will turn into a tidal wave of things like church micros but without the pretty church to find first. Maybe we could have a national series of "wet lamppost NFC micros". Edited December 14, 2012 by team tisri Quote Link to comment
+elmh Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 This just irritates me silly. I think it gets totally away from the whole idea of geocaching. A cache should be FINDABLE by anyone - if he/she wants to retrieve it, it is up to the individual if he thinks he is capable. He should not have to have a different device to find every new kind of cache. And they took away the virtuals, only to come up with THIS kind of stuff???? Quote Link to comment
+maxx borchovski Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 You could always make a hybrid cache. The first part is a traditional cache, find the container and sign the log. Job done, then for people with an NFC device, there is a tag in the container with co-ordinates or a clue to a second cache available to find. There are lost of multi caches and mystery caches out there that employ similar methods. I dont see all caches being transformed into NFC caches, but more as an addition to an already interesting set of tools available to the inventive cache creators. Personally I have a great idea for a multi/puzzle cache that uses NFC and conventional tools plus a website, once they are approved for general use. Quote Link to comment
+maxx borchovski Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 This just irritates me silly. I think it gets totally away from the whole idea of geocaching. A cache should be FINDABLE by anyone - if he/she wants to retrieve it, it is up to the individual if he thinks he is capable. He should not have to have a different device to find every new kind of cache. And they took away the virtuals, only to come up with THIS kind of stuff???? I don't have scuba gear to get the underwater caches, I am unable to climb rocks or abseil to get caches, I'm unable to walk very long distances to get caches and I don't have money for airfare to collect caches in different countries, but I hope that the people who can go find these caches have fun. I'd like to see virtuals come back, web cam caches come back and would embrace any new caches / technology that could make the game more fun. Then with the PQ I just block out the caches I don't want to or can't do. Quote Link to comment
+St.Matthew Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 A cache should be FINDABLE by anyone - if he/she wants to retrieve it, it is up to the individual if he thinks he is capable. He should not have to have a different device to find every new kind of cache. And they took away the virtuals, only to come up with THIS kind of stuff???? WHAT?!?! *Firstly, caches should not be findable by everyone. Some geocaches require special equipment such as scuba gear, boats, tree climbing equipment, etc. By your argument, these geocaches should not exist because they require special equipment. Have you ever noticed that there is a "special equipment needed" attribute? Those aren't just for making geocache pages look pretty. *Secondly, this isn't a "new kind of cache." It is listed as a Mystery/Puzzle Geocache. According to geocaching.com, "Mystery/Puzzle Caches often become the staging ground for new and unique geocaches that do not fit in another category." Doesn't Near Field Technology seem to fit that criteria at this time? *Thirdly, geocaching.com didn't take away virtuals, they only stopped users from creating new ones (for several good reasons that you can read about elsewhere). *Fourthly, geocaching.com (and Groundspeak) did not create this geocache. Geocaching.com is a geocache listing service. At this time, no guidelines exist that stop geocache hiders from utilizing near field communication. With this all being said, I vote yes they should stay, even though I could not solve/find them at this time. Quote Link to comment
+Don_J Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Interesting points, although I keep coming back to whether these things will make geocaching a more or less enjoyable experience. For the record I have yet to see any way a Chirp adds anything to the game, they just seem like an expensive doodad to nail to a tree to tell people where the next stage is, when they could just as easily have used some other means of conveying the information. Look around you. Some people would have these devices surgically attached to their hand if they could. ANYTHING that lets them play with their phone is enjoyable to them. Just look what happened when someone got the idea that QR codes should be stuck all over the place so people could play with yet another new app. To a lot of people, it would make caching more enjoyable, but at the same time it might drive a wedge between them and those of us that just want to go find and hide boxes in the woods/mountains, hopefully at a great location. Quote Link to comment
+geodarts Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 To a lot of people, it would make caching more enjoyable, but at the same time it might drive a wedge between them and those of us that just want to go find and hide boxes in the woods/mountains, hopefully at a great location. There are already plenty of wedge issues -- puzzles that require knowledge of computer programming or the enigma code; chirps that require one brand of gps units; wherigos that require smartphones, pocket pc, or particular gps units; and even going off into the woods or mountains might be a wedge for those who just want to find micros in parking lots. NFC does not seem to add much to the mix, and maybe when Apple introduces its competing technology, we will get even further into technological niches. NFC will seem so 2012. Then there will be the next thing after that. If Michio Koku is right with his predictions of future technology, my daughter might be playing this game with a nano sized gps that is accurate within inches and contact lenses that will display everything about the cache that she might need to know. Except that the game has not captured her interest. But, yes, although I can't think of any reason why I cannot ignore NFC caches, and find wherigos to be a lot of fun, I miss the days when old school caching was not old. Perhaps I have a Luddite streak in me after all. Quote Link to comment
+Walts Hunting Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Why would any addition to the caching experience drive a wedge between anybody. The great thing about this hobby is that individuals can choose how they want to experience it. Apple so far shows no desire to go with NFC. They don't consider it fully developed yet. Their competing technology for commercial applications is in Passport which requires the merchant to scan the code presented on the device. In the long run business' will have to handl both although NFC has a huge lead at this point. With the rollout of Jelly Bean the ISIS system for paying comes online although it currently only works in Salt Lake Cioty and Austin. Quote Link to comment
+Don_J Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 To a lot of people, it would make caching more enjoyable, but at the same time it might drive a wedge between them and those of us that just want to go find and hide boxes in the woods/mountains, hopefully at a great location. There are already plenty of wedge issues -- puzzles that require knowledge of computer programming or the enigma code; chirps that require one brand of gps units; wherigos that require smartphones, pocket pc, or particular gps units; and even going off into the woods or mountains might be a wedge for those who just want to find micros in parking lots. NFC does not seem to add much to the mix, and maybe when Apple introduces its competing technology, we will get even further into technological niches. NFC will seem so 2012. Then there will be the next thing after that. If Michio Koku is right with his predictions of future technology, my daughter might be playing this game with a nano sized gps that is accurate within inches and contact lenses that will display everything about the cache that she might need to know. Except that the game has not captured her interest. But, yes, although I can't think of any reason why I cannot ignore NFC caches, and find wherigos to be a lot of fun, I miss the days when old school caching was not old. Perhaps I have a Luddite streak in me after all. Obviously, my point is not being understood. I'll try one more time to clarify it, then I'll stop. Wherigos, chirp. wifi, RF, scuba and rappelling caches are few and far between. It is easy for a cacher who can't do them to ignore them, and work around them if they want to place a cache. In most areas, this is true with unknown and multi caches, while in some parts of the world, the unknown and multis are packed so deep that it is virtually impossible to place a cache without first solving all of the areas puzzles and completing the multis. Why can't we place a virtual? Why were the Challenges vaporized? Why were ALR caches banned? All three have the same thing in common, people wanted to push the envelope past the point of stupidity. They do it time and time again. So this new cache is allowed and at some point enough people have the new phone, that it becomes the new fad. They put these tags everywhere and they lead to the locations of some crappy micro, or other cache that I normally wouldn't do. Caches that used be traditional with known locations. If the entire area becomes saturated with these things, how is one to know if his great location for a new cache has a proximity issue? Would I have to buy this phone, that I don't need for any other purpose, just to go round up all of locations to caches that I don't even want to find, in order to see where I can or can not hide a cache? If that ever happens, I'll probably find something else to do. And, don't think that it wont happen. There are already 270,000 of those QR thingies pasted all over the place. Imagine if all of those were unknown proximity points that you had to stay 528' away from, and the only way to find out where those points were, was to go and spend top dollar on a device that you really don't need or want. Quote Link to comment
+Gustav129 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) This just irritates me silly. I think it gets totally away from the whole idea of geocaching. A cache should be FINDABLE by anyone - if he/she wants to retrieve it, it is up to the individual if he thinks he is capable. He should not have to have a different device to find every new kind of cache. And they took away the virtuals, only to come up with THIS kind of stuff???? I'd rather do caches that are NOT findable by everyone. The only caches I see are "finadable by everybody" are lame LPC's. So I take it you only want to do LPC's. I'd do an NFC multi if I had the technology. Remember, Geocaching was originally just a way to try new technology. Both GPS and BBS, which not everybody had or was part of. Edited December 14, 2012 by gustav129 Quote Link to comment
+NeverSummer Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 This discussion is starting to make me wonder if there is a shift going on toward D/T ratings not being a significant enough part of geocaching. I started weeding out caches by D an T ratings. I still do. Some days I don't mind a really tough cache, and other days I just want a quick find. You can weed out caches you don't want to, or can't do. I see no difference between NFC technology use in a cache listing than with scuba gear, a chirp, or infrared, etc. You can look to D/T ratings and adjust your hunt accordingly. A desire to make NFC a new type of cache on the official list is silly. "?" caches exist to push the envelope, and I see no reason why someone couldn't or shouldn't make a cache using that bit of tech. If caches "should be accessible to everyone", then we should do away with D/T ratings, and all caches should be on wheelchair-accessible terrain, and easy to find without much searching. Why not use the simple tools provided to demonstrate the attributes of our cache hides? We have D/T ratings, Attribute icons, encrypted hint sections, and a whole page with which to describe the cache hunt. Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 One aspect that has not come up yet in this discussion are security risks associated with NFC. There is currently a guideline which prohibits creating a cache which requires users to download data from another website and specifically forbids "The use of memory sticks and similar devices". NFC is essentially just another mechanism for data transfer between two devices. Other than the fact that it doesn't require a physical connection, it's essentially no different from downloading data from a website, and there have some NFC hacks demonstrate which exploit security vulnerabilities. A NFC cache effectively requires the use of a "simmilar device" (to a memory stick) to transfer data to a smartphone in order find the cache. The guidelines, as they're currently written, would seem to prohibit such a cache. Quote Link to comment
+NeverSummer Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 One aspect that has not come up yet in this discussion are security risks associated with NFC. There is currently a guideline which prohibits creating a cache which requires users to download data from another website and specifically forbids "The use of memory sticks and similar devices". NFC is essentially just another mechanism for data transfer between two devices. Other than the fact that it doesn't require a physical connection, it's essentially no different from downloading data from a website, and there have some NFC hacks demonstrate which exploit security vulnerabilities. A NFC cache effectively requires the use of a "simmilar device" (to a memory stick) to transfer data to a smartphone in order find the cache. The guidelines, as they're currently written, would seem to prohibit such a cache. Well, hey! I totally forgot about how NFCs would be aligned with what the guideline is discussing. Hmmm...move my chit to the "perhaps not" column Quote Link to comment
+Walts Hunting Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 In another discussion http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=288952&st=80&gopid=5171371entry5171371 PeeJay says the concept has been approved and his in the reviewers waiting list now. Quote Link to comment
team tisri Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 To a lot of people, it would make caching more enjoyable, but at the same time it might drive a wedge between them and those of us that just want to go find and hide boxes in the woods/mountains, hopefully at a great location. There are already plenty of wedge issues -- puzzles that require knowledge of computer programming or the enigma code; chirps that require one brand of gps units; wherigos that require smartphones, pocket pc, or particular gps units; and even going off into the woods or mountains might be a wedge for those who just want to find micros in parking lots. NFC does not seem to add much to the mix, and maybe when Apple introduces its competing technology, we will get even further into technological niches. NFC will seem so 2012. Then there will be the next thing after that. If Michio Koku is right with his predictions of future technology, my daughter might be playing this game with a nano sized gps that is accurate within inches and contact lenses that will display everything about the cache that she might need to know. Except that the game has not captured her interest. But, yes, although I can't think of any reason why I cannot ignore NFC caches, and find wherigos to be a lot of fun, I miss the days when old school caching was not old. Perhaps I have a Luddite streak in me after all. Obviously, my point is not being understood. I'll try one more time to clarify it, then I'll stop. Wherigos, chirp. wifi, RF, scuba and rappelling caches are few and far between. It is easy for a cacher who can't do them to ignore them, and work around them if they want to place a cache. In most areas, this is true with unknown and multi caches, while in some parts of the world, the unknown and multis are packed so deep that it is virtually impossible to place a cache without first solving all of the areas puzzles and completing the multis. The impression I get is that a lot of these types of cache have natural restrictions keeping them in check. Wherigos are a faff to build, I thought of producing one in my local area but struggled so much with the builder that kept crashing that I gave up. Chirp beacons seem like an expensive alternative to getting numbers from a signpost so a trail of them seems unlikely. Wifi, RF, bluetooth etc require power sources so unless a cache setter wants to all but post their home address they cease to be an option. Scuba caches need water, abseiling caches need a suitable rock face, and of course all are constrained by the existing proximity rules. If the NFC tags are as cheap as I'm hearing about I can see them popping up all over the place as people rush to use the "latest and greatest technology" without giving any thought to whether the cache is a good one or not. A bad cache doesn't become a good cache because it's got an NFC tag somewhere along the way. Why can't we place a virtual? Why were the Challenges vaporized? Why were ALR caches banned? All three have the same thing in common, people wanted to push the envelope past the point of stupidity. They do it time and time again. So this new cache is allowed and at some point enough people have the new phone, that it becomes the new fad. They put these tags everywhere and they lead to the locations of some crappy micro, or other cache that I normally wouldn't do. Caches that used be traditional with known locations. If the entire area becomes saturated with these things, how is one to know if his great location for a new cache has a proximity issue? Would I have to buy this phone, that I don't need for any other purpose, just to go round up all of locations to caches that I don't even want to find, in order to see where I can or can not hide a cache? This sums up my concern. As the guidelines always used to say (haven't checked them in ages, but hope they still say it), an ideal location for a cache is the kind of place you'd go even if there wasn't a cache there. If the only reason for putting a film pot behind a post is that there isn't another film pot within 528 feet, perhaps you should consider hiding it somewhere else. If that ever happens, I'll probably find something else to do. And, don't think that it wont happen. There are already 270,000 of those QR thingies pasted all over the place. Imagine if all of those were unknown proximity points that you had to stay 528' away from, and the only way to find out where those points were, was to go and spend top dollar on a device that you really don't need or want. Truth be told after finding some really good caches along really enjoyable hikes over in the US, on the way back to where we were staying I drove literally right past at least half a dozen other caches. The reason was simple - I'd had a really good time enjoying a hike up the side of a mountain, a walk taking in spectacular views, a couple of really good caches, and a walk back down the mountain. After all that I really couldn't be bothered to park up and look for a film pot behind a billboard. Recently I've struggled to maintain much enthusiasm for a proliferation of film pots and nanos behind signs and posts, so for all I can see benefits to QR codes and NFC tags and all that, in suitable applications, the thought of finding them popping up all over the place as fast as wet film pots behind signs leads me to wonder whether the expiry of my current premium membership will be the time I just drift away from this game. Quote Link to comment
+Castle Mischief Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 This just irritates me silly. I think it gets totally away from the whole idea of geocaching. A cache should be FINDABLE by anyone - if he/she wants to retrieve it, it is up to the individual if he thinks he is capable. He should not have to have a different device to find every new kind of cache. And they took away the virtuals, only to come up with THIS kind of stuff???? Hey, god news- the VAST majority of caches can be found by everyone. You're in luck! Quote Link to comment
Hibernatus Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I believe a device should be required only if it adds something new, challenging, fun. NFC adds just a need to own a specific device without adding any value. While I don't really like how Wherigo requires specific devices, it adds a new element. And it's just one device, more like a separate game that just shares boxes with geocaching. If NFC added some new value (other than being able to hide caches on places where a physical cache/stage would be too obvious), I'd see a reason to use it. I wouldn't ban it, but caches that use NFC just for the sake of using NFC shouldn't be created. Inventions like this just distract from the real GC. Quote Link to comment
+Logscaler and Red Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Every time a step is taken forward someone is left behind and has to catch up. Nope, I do not believe this to be true. Your assuming everyone has the same destination. I know how to hang a "thataway" to entertain myself to MY expectations, not someone else's expectations. Quote Link to comment
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