GZ and When to be Nitpicky (In a Polite way)

[Snugglesofdoom]

I am still fairly new to Geocaching (I logged my 100th find today!) and have a quick question for the masses. There have been about 3 caches over my 103 finds that have been off from their GZ.

 

My question is this: When should I send a polite email to the CO with a more accurate GZ/Ask the CO to procure more accurate GZ?

 

1st Cache - 90 feet off - Hint did NOT help in finding it. - (Also, this cache, in my opinion, has been abandoned by the CO and even with the 90 feet issue, cachers are still finding it due to the previous logs with more accurate GZ in them. Also, the cache "container" is a plastic ziploc baggie)

2nd Cache - 15 feet off - Hint DID help in finding it. Posted GZ is in the middle of a dead end street that DOES have traffic on it because of a business located on it.

3rd Cache - 35 feet off - Hint is redundant (The hint suggests that it's a micro cache, which is also listed as the size on the cache page) - Posted GZ places the cache on a different piece of land than where it actually is hidden.

 

I do NOT in any way, shape, or form, want to be nitpicky or upset a CO by providing a more accurate GZ...

 

Any suggestions or help on how to handle this potentially delicate situation will be greatly appreciated. :-)

[+Panther&Pine]

I would make a note in the logs for the 1st and 3rd option.

[+Sol seaker]

If people are not finding the cache without coordinates posted by other finders, then that's a given. Coords need to be updated.

 

anything over 50 feet for sure!

 

20 feet or under, don't worry about it.

 

35 feet is your call on that particular cache.

Are people finding it?

Often I put notes if they are over 20 feet and are contributing to trashing the environment, etc. or if people can't find it.

[+t4e]

when coordinates are off we, well the better half, posts the coordinates in his found it log...no harm done, maybe someone else can use them

[+Harry Dolphin]

I am still fairly new to Geocaching (I logged my 100th find today!) and have a quick question for the masses. There have been about 3 caches over my 103 finds that have been off from their GZ.

 

My question is this: When should I send a polite email to the CO with a more accurate GZ/Ask the CO to procure more accurate GZ?

 

1st Cache - 90 feet off - Hint did NOT help in finding it. - (Also, this cache, in my opinion, has been abandoned by the CO and even with the 90 feet issue, cachers are still finding it due to the previous logs with more accurate GZ in them. Also, the cache "container" is a plastic ziploc baggie)

2nd Cache - 15 feet off - Hint DID help in finding it. Posted GZ is in the middle of a dead end street that DOES have traffic on it because of a business located on it.

3rd Cache - 35 feet off - Hint is redundant (The hint suggests that it's a micro cache, which is also listed as the size on the cache page) - Posted GZ places the cache on a different piece of land than where it actually is hidden.

 

I do NOT in any way, shape, or form, want to be nitpicky or upset a CO by providing a more accurate GZ...

 

Any suggestions or help on how to handle this potentially delicate situation will be greatly appreciated. :-)

 

You're being nitpicky. Chill out. Fifteen feet is excellent! 35 feet is within accepted accuracy. 90 feet is not good, but not terrible.

Hints are whatever the CO wishes. They can be obtuse. They can be exact. But there is no requirement that they must tell you exactly where to look. Ziplock bags are not food cache containers, but they are acceptable.

Yes. You may post better coords. But for fifteen feet off you are going to look silly.

This is a game about hunting and searching. If you want someone to hold your hand, and guide you to the exact location... Um... Why bother?

Accept the challenge. Stop picking nits.

[Snugglesofdoom]

If people are not finding the cache without coordinates posted by other finders, then that's a given. Coords need to be updated.

 

anything over 50 feet for sure!

 

20 feet or under, don't worry about it.

 

35 feet is your call on that particular cache.

Are people finding it?

Often I put notes if they are over 20 feet and are contributing to trashing the environment, etc. or if people can't find it.

 

The 35 feet one is a tricky one due to the fact that the posted GZ places on you the opposite side of the fence on a different piece of land, which may or may not be private property (I didn't see signs suggesting private property, but it is hard to tell...).

 

The 90 feet one is also a tricky one for me because of a few things. 1st, the cache is not at GZ and 90 feet away. 2nd, the CO has been AWOL from the site since Oct 2009 (Which would suggest that the CO is not maintaining the cache). If it weren't for the previous logs with the proper GZ in them, other cachers most likely would not find it. 3rd, the container, though technically not against the rules (I believe), is a small plastic ziploc baggie. I personally thought it was a piece of trash until I saw a log book with the GC symbol on it. On this one, my gut feeling is to post a NA on it and let the reviewer make the final call. If it did get archived, I would place a cache there to replace it.

 

The 15 foot one, I agree is okay and doesn't need any attention. :-)

[+popokiiti]

If I remember correctly, there's an option when logging online to enter coordinates. So, for cache #1, I would post my coords. Doesn't mean they are going to be totally accurate, as all GPS units differ a bit. I don't like plastic bag caches, so would probably mention that the container is missing and post a NM. As for the hint not helping...I'd forget about that. Some are so obscure, some are "no hint at this time," some I just don't get - but my caching partner does!!

Cache #2 - coords are within acceptable range, hint helped, seems fine to me.

Cache #3 - 35 feet is acceptable, micro which isn't...we found a "micro" that was in actual fact a medium to large sized container. Many logs mentioned the size of the micro - including it being the biggest micro ever. Maybe the CO forgot to change the size/made an error/someone replaced the missing cache. I'd leave that one too.

I wouldn't bother contacting any of the three COs. I would just just carry on caching! Congratulations on your 100!

[Snugglesofdoom]

I am still fairly new to Geocaching (I logged my 100th find today!) and have a quick question for the masses. There have been about 3 caches over my 103 finds that have been off from their GZ.

 

My question is this: When should I send a polite email to the CO with a more accurate GZ/Ask the CO to procure more accurate GZ?

 

1st Cache - 90 feet off - Hint did NOT help in finding it. - (Also, this cache, in my opinion, has been abandoned by the CO and even with the 90 feet issue, cachers are still finding it due to the previous logs with more accurate GZ in them. Also, the cache "container" is a plastic ziploc baggie)

2nd Cache - 15 feet off - Hint DID help in finding it. Posted GZ is in the middle of a dead end street that DOES have traffic on it because of a business located on it.

3rd Cache - 35 feet off - Hint is redundant (The hint suggests that it's a micro cache, which is also listed as the size on the cache page) - Posted GZ places the cache on a different piece of land than where it actually is hidden.

 

I do NOT in any way, shape, or form, want to be nitpicky or upset a CO by providing a more accurate GZ...

 

Any suggestions or help on how to handle this potentially delicate situation will be greatly appreciated. :-)

 

You're being nitpicky. Chill out. Fifteen feet is excellent! 35 feet is within accepted accuracy. 90 feet is not good, but not terrible.

Hints are whatever the CO wishes. They can be obtuse. They can be exact. But there is no requirement that they must tell you exactly where to look. Ziplock bags are not food cache containers, but they are acceptable.

Yes. You may post better coords. But for fifteen feet off you are going to look silly.

This is a game about hunting and searching. If you want someone to hold your hand, and guide you to the exact location... Um... Why bother?

Accept the challenge. Stop picking nits.

 

The 15 foot one - Yes, I agree, that is probably me being nitpicky.

 

The 35 foot one (Linearly 35 feet off of course, 121~ feet off if you wanna go by actual distance traveled by foot) - Eh, it places the cacher on the wrong side of the fence which may or may not be private property (I drive pass this cache twice a week, I'll check the signage on Thursday when I go past.). I spent 20 minutes on the wrong side of the fence, searching every crack and crevice along the fence and the tree nearby for the micro. I finally decided to give a look on the other/correct side of the fence and found it after 10 minutes of searching the fence and trees. Of course, I am a bit frazzled due to the wrong GZ and time spent looking, but if a more accurate GZ was posted other cachers might not have to go through what I went through. Heck, as long as the GZ put the cache somewhere on the correct side of the fence, I would be happy.

 

The 90 foot one - As I said in the post, the CO, for all we know, has abandoned the cache (They haven't been on the site since Oct 2009, which suggests that they are not maintaining it).

[Snugglesofdoom]

If I remember correctly, there's an option when logging online to enter coordinates. So, for cache #1, I would post my coords. Doesn't mean they are going to be totally accurate, as all GPS units differ a bit. I don't like plastic bag caches, so would probably mention that the container is missing and post a NM. As for the hint not helping...I'd forget about that. Some are so obscure, some are "no hint at this time," some I just don't get - but my caching partner does!!

Cache #2 - coords are within acceptable range, hint helped, seems fine to me.

Cache #3 - 35 feet is acceptable, micro which isn't...we found a "micro" that was in actual fact a medium to large sized container. Many logs mentioned the size of the micro - including it being the biggest micro ever. Maybe the CO forgot to change the size/made an error/someone replaced the missing cache. I'd leave that one too.

I wouldn't bother contacting any of the three COs. I would just just carry on caching! Congratulations on your 100!

 

Thanks for the advice. :-)

 

Ah yes, the radio button that I look directly at every time and forget to use... LOL.

 

Thanks for the Congrats! It's been a crazy month of caching for me! :-)

[+dfx]

The 15 foot one - Yes, I agree, that is probably me being nitpicky.

 

How do you even know that the coords are 15 feet off? How do you know that it's not your GPS which is 15 feet off?

(same goes for all other cases BTW)

[Snugglesofdoom]

The 15 foot one - Yes, I agree, that is probably me being nitpicky.

 

How do you even know that the coords are 15 feet off? How do you know that it's not your GPS which is 15 feet off?

(same goes for all other cases BTW)

 

Good question - The only things I can say in my favor are these:

 

1) Used Satellite mode in the GC app to view where the GZ is and saw that it was in the middle of the street.

2) Used Google Maps in Satellite mode to view the GZ and again it showed it in the middle of the street.

3) Used Mapquest in Satellite mode to view the GZ and again it showed it in the middle of the street.

4) Had a friend with a GPS unit come to the spot with me after I found it and his GPS unit placed him in the middle of the street.

 

So I would take an educated guess and say that since I used 3 (The GC app and Google Maps are essentially the same) different tools to navigate to the GZ, I feel like I can safety say the cache is in fact 15 feet away from the posted GZ.

 

Edited for a spelling error.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Snugglesofdoom

[+dfx]

1) Used Satellite mode in the GC app to view where the GZ is and saw that it was in the middle of the street.

2) Used Google Maps in Satellite mode to view the GZ and again it showed it in the middle of the street.

3) Used Mapquest in Satellite mode to view the GZ and again it showed it in the middle of the street.

4) Had a friend with a GPS unit come to the spot with me after I found it and his GPS unit placed him in the middle of the street.

 

So I would take an educated guess and say that since I used 3 (The GC app and Google Maps are essentially the same) different tools to navigate to the GZ, I feel like I can safety say the cache is in fact 15 feet away from the posted GZ.

 

Maps have a tendency to share data among themselves, so technically you used only two different sources of information. Now 15 feet is well within the general accuracy of a GPS receiver, and the accuracy of the map is anyone's guess. Now I'm not saying that you're wrong and that the coords aren't off, just to take it all with a large grain of salt.

[AZcachemeister]

Assuming I actually find the cache, I usually ascribe any discrepancy to MY unit.

 

OTOH, anything over fifty feet is suspect.

[+Coldgears]

I agree with others. It depends on where it is hidden. In the middle of an urban street, then 15 feet can be quite a bit off, unless it's in a city (Skyscrapers mess with gps signal.), I expect coords in urban places to be within 3 - 8 feet. However, 15 feet isn't enough to post alternate coordinates, or to actually worry about it if the CO won't update them.

 

In a wooded area though, 30 feet is perfectly acceptable. On one cache I DNFed people posted their own GZ coordinates, and I tried everyone... Trust me. There were some 30 feet from the original coordinates, some 25 feet in the other direction. Too big of an area for me to spend enough time to find it.

[Snugglesofdoom]

I agree with others. It depends on where it is hidden. In the middle of an urban street, then 15 feet can be quite a bit off, unless it's in a city (Skyscrapers mess with gps signal.), I expect coords in urban places to be within 3 - 8 feet. However, 15 feet isn't enough to post alternate coordinates, or to actually worry about it if the CO won't update them.

 

In a wooded area though, 30 feet is perfectly acceptable. On one cache I DNFed people posted their own GZ coordinates, and I tried everyone... Trust me. There were some 30 feet from the original coordinates, some 25 feet in the other direction. Too big of an area for me to spend enough time to find it.

 

The nearest building is 120~ feet away and is a 1 story building (believe it's an Arby's). I agree that 15 feet isn't a huge deal. My main concern was that the GZ was in the middle of the street (according to Google Maps, Mapquest, GC App, GPS unit, and USGS; nationamap.gov - and of course, as it was pointed out above, you have to take the maps accuracy into account whether it is correct or not) and I admittedly overreacted in the "Oh no, someone is going to look in the middle of the street for a micro/nano stuck in a hole/crack and get run over..." Of course - that is me being overly protective and I have to believe that people wouldn't actually hide one there and/or people would make sure to be well aware of vehicles coming at them.

 

I agree that in a wooded area, whatever you are using for GPS WILL be off. However, with that said, the cache I mentioned that was 90 feet off, 40 out 65 cachers that logged a "Found It" (61.5%) stated that the GZ was anywhere from 50-90 feet off and that they had used a more accurate GZ from previous logs. In my opinion, this is a case where something should be said to the CO. The only issue is that the CO is MIA and hasn't logged on with the username that hid the cache since Oct 2009.

 

I guess in the end, I am just going to have to use my gut feeling when it comes to attaching coordinates to my logs. Maybe they will be more accurate and help other cachers out or maybe they will take them further off track (by accident of course due to my GPS being silly).

Edited June 29, 2011 by Snugglesofdoom

[+dorqie]

Some things to consider...

-the margin of error on your gps

-the margin of error on the co's gps

-tree cover or adverse weather

-cache migration.

Edited June 29, 2011 by dorqie

[knowschad]

I would make a note in the logs for the 1st and 3rd option.

 

#1: for sure, although make it clear that you realize that your coords are no more correct then theirs, unless there have been a number of people posting that the coords were off.

#2: Well within the normal margin of error (yours, the hiders, or combined)

#3: If you want to, but be nice about it. Could just as well be your error, so don't go out on a limb here.

[knowschad]

when coordinates are off we, well the better half, posts the coordinates in his found it log...no harm done, maybe someone else can use them

That is typically how it is done around here. Generally, the finder's suggested coordinates are posted in a bold font. If you do not take your own set of coordinates, please reference not only the distance, but the direction that they seem to be off for you. It can be very frustrating to see, "Found the cache about 45 feet from posted coordinates". IN WHAT DIRECTION?!?

 

 

[+mwellman]

Hi Snugglesofdoom,

 

Our two Garmins never agree and we are usually hunting 10 feet apart. Trees, buildings, mountains, and storms all affect the accuracy.

 

At our Ten Year Anniversary of Geocaching in Alberta, http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=88e9c7f1-c064-47ea-8851-53df12623674 we played a game of most like me. M hid a pin in the ground and posted the coordinates, the cachers went out and planted a flag where they found GZ. There were flags all over a 30 metre/yard area. A husband and wife went out separately with the same device and had different results.

 

If I find the posted coordinates to be over 30 feet away, I will post my coordinates. As a cache owner, I don't mind if others post their coordinates. I will average and correct if needed. My owner maintenance logs will say that these were the coordinates today and it was sunny or stormy etc. Just don't do what a newbie did to one of my caches and move it 5 feet closer so that it was at their GZ!

 

Google maps/Google Earth can be accurate but my rural Alberta and Saskatchewan hides not so much, even the roads don't match.

 

Enjoy your Geocaching Adventures!

 

mwellman

[+Mushroom finder]

I don't know, I'd say it's too nit picky. The thing to remember is that the accuracy of any GPSr can vary greatly from day to day, location to location and can be severely affected by tree cover, cloud cover and other environmental conditions. Whenever I find one that seems a bit off I have to remind myself to check the current accuracy of my unit. The other day I found one that was about 50' off, I checked and the present accuracy of my unit was 32'. Now one could reasonably assume that if my unit was off that much at that location, then the CO's unit could very well have had similar accuracy at that location as well meaning that it would not be unreasonable for the cache to be anywhere within about 64' from where my unit put me.

 

On one of my own caches I have gotten several logs indicating that the coords were off anywhere from 40' to 60'. But I have also gotten logs on the same cache that said the coords were spot on. This was my first hide and for the first two years I literally went and checked on it after every single find. The first time someone posted about the coords being off I went out and re-averaged the waypoint and it was the same that I had recorded initially so I didn't sweat it. I re-check the waypoint every time I go out to the cache and it is always within 5'- 10', yet I still get the occasional log indicating that it is off. Recently I went to check on it and guess what, 58' off! Went back the very next day and it was only 7'off. Even though some people say it is off, they still were able to find it and it has very few DNF's, so I don't feel like I need to change anything. I guess what I'm getting at is if you feel that the caches in question are too far off the mark, go ahead and post a note (not a NM)on the cache page. But unless there are multiple other logs indicating the same issue and there are a bunch of DNF's, I wouldn't expect CO to change anything.

 

Now on your 15' deal, I realize it's not so much a distance issue to you but rather a safety issue since it is in the middle of the street. Don't take this the wrong way, but if my unit is indicating that GZ is out in the middle of the street, common sense is gonna tell me (and probably any other cacher with any degree of experience)that it is not there and I'm going to be concentrating my search along the sides, on signs, guard rails, lamp post, etc. without ever stepping foot out into the road.

[+Coldgears]

Generally, the finder's suggested coordinates are posted in a bold font.

For someone as experienced in geocaching as you knowschad, I thought you would know by now that when you are posting a log on a geocache you are given an option to put alternate coordinates in. That automatically makes it bold.

[+hukilaulau]

1st cache:

"cachers are still finding it due to the previous logs with more accurate GZ in them."

Then why would you need to do anything else?

 

2nd cache: Dude! Seriously!

 

3rd cache: Go ahead and post your new coords in your note. No need to email the cache owner at all.

 

I only answered the question you asked, even though it's obvious you have other issues besides slightly bad coordinates. I often find some minor fault with the caches I find. They are just not the way I would have done them.

That thought sticks in my mind for about 20 seconds and then I forget about it and move on. Oh, and I always thank the owner for hiding a cache.

Edited June 29, 2011 by hukilaulau

[+Crow-T-Robot]

Heck, as long as the GZ put the cache somewhere on the correct side of the fence, I would be happy

This sounds more like a case of following the GPS arrow until it counts down to 0' than a problem with coordinates. There were plenty of times when I walked right past the cache because my GPS told me it was 15' further away. Your GPS doesn't know where the cache is...just where GZ is.

 

I always think of coordinates as trying to locate your seat in a stadium. Really bad coordinates will get you to one side of the stadium. Bad coordinates will get you to the correct section. Fair coordinates will get you to either the upper or lower part of that section. Good coordinates will get you to the right row. Dead on coordinates will point right at your seat. Dead on coordinates are rare. Be happy to be in the right row and find your seat from there.

[+briansnat]

I probably wouldn't mention the coords unless they were over 50 feet off, or if others were apparently having issues finding the cache.

 

If everyone seems to be finding the cache and my coords are significantly off I'll chalk it up to a bad sat day. If everyone seems to be having the same issue then perhaps the CO should know about it. Even then, if most people are finding the cache and the bad coords are not causing any other problems, then there really is no need to fix them.

 

Hunting a cache is part of geocaching. How much fun would it be if we were spot on the cache every time? That I can be 1 ft. off with one cache and 50 ft off with the next is part of what keeps this sport fresh for me.

Edited June 29, 2011 by briansnat

[+Coldgears]

I probably wouldn't mention the coords unless they were over 50 feet off, or if others were apparently having issues finding the cache.

 

If everyone seems to be finding the cache and my coords are significantly off I'll chalk it up to a bad sat day. If everyone seems to be having the same issue then perhaps the CO should know about it. Even then, if most people are finding the cache and the bad coords are not causing any other problems, then there really is no need to fix them.

 

Hunting a cache is part of geocaching. How much fun would it be if we were spot on the cache every time? That I can be 1 ft. off with one cache and 50 ft off with the next is part of what keeps this sport fresh for me.

I think the fact that you ration your geocaching and only do it 1 in every 4 days on average has a lot more to do with keeping it fresh than bad coordinates.

[+briansnat]

The 15 foot one - Yes, I agree, that is probably me being nitpicky.

 

How do you even know that the coords are 15 feet off? How do you know that it's not your GPS which is 15 feet off?

(same goes for all other cases BTW)

 

Good question - The only things I can say in my favor are these:

 

1) Used Satellite mode in the GC app to view where the GZ is and saw that it was in the middle of the street.

2) Used Google Maps in Satellite mode to view the GZ and again it showed it in the middle of the street.

3) Used Mapquest in Satellite mode to view the GZ and again it showed it in the middle of the street.

4) Had a friend with a GPS unit come to the spot with me after I found it and his GPS unit placed him in the middle of the street.

 

So I would take an educated guess and say that since I used 3 (The GC app and Google Maps are essentially the same) different tools to navigate to the GZ, I feel like I can safety say the cache is in fact 15 feet away from the posted GZ.

 

Edited for a spelling error.

 

15 feet off is not an issue in the geocaching world. Almost counts in horseshoes, hand grenades and geocaching.

[+Chokecherry]

When caching with my phone and if the coordinates seem off I never mention it as the phone was not made for accurate GPS readings. In my experience it's just once in a great while that it is spot on. I know some people have luck with that and argue it. I have a friend who will go in map mode on the phone as well when looking for caches with some marginal luck.

 

I'll note that the coordinates are off by however many feet in my logs when out with my GPS unit. Typically don't post new coordinates but just how many feet away if it's 30+, especially if others note it. But when hitting ground zero I will expand my search out to about 75-100 feet depending on conditions. Where I cache I have the potential for a lot of bounce.

[+power69]

If people would only stop using iphones to take coord readings!

[+addisonbr]

I am probably a little more likely to post updated coords in my logs than the average visitor to this thread. I do most of my caching in an urban environment where folks really picking apart an area with no hope of finding the cache can raise a lot of eyebrows. In the woods I wouldn't care as much, but if I encounter coords that are across the street, or around the corner, or otherwise materially off, I'll take readings / play with the satellite maps and post updates.

 

Frankly it's more selfish than anything else; just trying to reduce the chances of seeing a cache's coordinates create problems that will affect me.

[+StarBrand]

Just to show you how far off your unit can be on different days and different times - try this experiment and then post a photo of the results.

 

Go out to the middle of your yard and get a reading (without averaging as though you are caching) - write it down and place a flag at that spot. Now, over the next 3 or 4 days, randomly go out and return to those exact coordinates as reported on your unit and place a new flag. Repeat until you have 40 or so flags.

 

I'll bet they are spread, plus or minus 20 or so feet in all directions from the original point. Easily demonstrating that your unit can vary by up to 40 feet easily.

 

Makes worry over 15 foot off and 35 foot off seem very unnecessary.

Edited June 29, 2011 by StarBrand

[+humboldt flier]

If people would only stop using iphones to take coord readings!

 

AMEN BROTHER OR SISTER

[knowschad]

I don't know, I'd say it's too nit picky. The thing to remember is that the accuracy of any GPSr can vary greatly from day to day, location to location and can be severely affected by tree cover, cloud cover and other environmental conditions.

I've heard too many GPS engineers and other experts say that cloud cover has no bearing on GPS signals. I just wanted to take a second to dispel that myth.

[knowschad]

Generally, the finder's suggested coordinates are posted in a bold font.

For someone as experienced in geocaching as you knowschad, I thought you would know by now that when you are posting a log on a geocache you are given an option to put alternate coordinates in. That automatically makes it bold.

 

I wouldn't expect someone as inexperienced as you, Coldgears, to know that we haven't always had the option to add a coordinate to a log aside from typing it into the log.

[+L0ne.R]

when coordinates are off we, well the better half, posts the coordinates in his found it log...no harm done, maybe someone else can use them

 

Me....I'm sure I've used dfx's posted additional waypoint coords. They are very much appreciated.