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Why is this a bad thing?


cx1
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You can only find this cache if you write your log in a language I understand.

 

Now I have seen this brought up in several different threads recently on other topics. I didn't want to take those threads off their main topic so decided to start one just about this idea.

 

A cache owner is tasked with ensuring that logs to their cache are on-topic, not counterfeit and not bogus. How can a cache owner ensure that if they cannot determine what a log states because it is written in a language the cache owner does not understand?

 

Without knowing what language a log is written in how does one begin to translate it? And why should that burden be put on the cache owner and all subsequent cache finders who use previous logs to gain information about a cache?

 

A recent thread has shown the mistakes in proper log types can and do happen. A person accidentally marks a cache as found but their log clearly shows they did not actually find the cache. So how does a cache owner know if that is the case if they can't understand the log?

 

If I travel to Germany, go on-line and find a cache page written in German and decide to post a log the burden should be on me to post in German. Why should the German cache owner have to make special accommodations for me to log their cache?

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Most ridiculous post ever.

I think the reply would have worked well without this sentence.

 

I think it's reasonable to give the benefit of the doubt to the cache logger that her log is accurately marked and not bogus. I can handle the burden of translating, should I decide that my logs need policing for one reason or another.

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As a cache owner I can not require the use of a 3rd party website in finding my cache. But a cache logger can require it for the cache owner to maintain correct logs. Interesting disparity.

 

So then logging everything in hexadecimal format should be fine then. Thanks for the clarification.

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This isn't true at all.

 

Really?

So when did that change? I know before that you were not allowed to force the use of content that was outside the control of Groundspeak. You could not require the watching of a YouTube video for example because the content of the video could be changed without changing the cache page.

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Because I would like to log caches if I ever get the opportunity to travel outside the USA, and these logs would be a heck of a lot more than TFTC.

 

Also any non-English speaking geocacher has the right to log any cache I own. If I have ANY doubt they actually found it I just do what ANY cache owner should I go and check my cache. 65% of the false logs are on caches that have absent owners (I'd say another 25-30% is due to peoples own definition of a find).

 

01000001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01101100 01101111 01100111 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100011 01100001 01100011 01101000 01100101 01110011 00100000 01100001 01101110 01111001 01110111 01100001 01111001 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110111 01100001 01101110 01110100 00101110 00100000 01001001 01101110 00100000 01100110 01100001 01100011 01110100 00100000 01001001 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110110 01100101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01000010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00100000 01100011 01100001 01100011 01101000 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01110111 01101111 01110101 01101100 01100100 00100000 01101100 01101111 01110110 01100101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110101 01101110 01100100 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01101100 01101111 01100111 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01100010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 01101101

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This isn't true at all.

 

Really?

So when did that change? I know before that you were not allowed to force the use of content that was outside the control of Groundspeak. You could not require the watching of a YouTube video for example because the content of the video could be changed without changing the cache page.

 

I don't know that it ever changed. Lots of puzzle caches have clues embedded in YouTube videos.

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This isn't true at all.

 

Really?

So when did that change? I know before that you were not allowed to force the use of content that was outside the control of Groundspeak. You could not require the watching of a YouTube video for example because the content of the video could be changed without changing the cache page.

 

Can you reference the section of the guidelines you're talking about?

 

There are many, many puzzle caches that require the use of third party internet resources in some form or another.

 

It should also be noted that the guidelines are aimed at cache owners, not finders. Guidelines can be found here:

 

http://www.google.com/uds/samples/language/detect.html

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I don't know that it ever changed. Lots of puzzle caches have clues embedded in YouTube videos.

At least in some parts of the country, YouTube links used to not be okay, because YouTube accepts advertising and links to the site were interpreted as a violation of commercial guidelines. That was (wisely) relaxed a couple of years ago and YouTube links are generally okay now. There are exceptions if the video itself is commercial in nature, but YouTube videos that are user-generated usually have little trouble getting through the review process.

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I think that "TFTC" is multi-lingual. <_<

 

If you were not allowed to use the web to solve puzzles, there would be very few puzzles solved. Decryption websites, translators, many internet tools are used. I think the restriction had to do with requiring the downloading of executables, but that is just my guess.

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I don't know that it ever changed. Lots of puzzle caches have clues embedded in YouTube videos.

At least in some parts of the country, YouTube links used to not be okay, because YouTube accepts advertising and links to the site were interpreted as a violation of commercial guidelines. That was (wisely) relaxed a couple of years ago and YouTube links are generally okay now. There are exceptions if the video itself is commercial in nature, but YouTube videos that are user-generated usually have little trouble getting through the review process.

 

Glad to see evidence that I did not hallucinate the concept.

I can't find the specific thread I was thinking about but it basically followed similar thinking to what you posted. There was also concern for the possibility of malicious code from any 3rd party site not exclusive to video.

Nice to see the concern for this is gone. At the time I had a cache idea based on video that I abandoned because of the reasons given in that thread.

 

Anyway, to me it still seems rather lazy and self-centered not to at least attempt to log in the language native to the cache page. You don't have to learn an entire language to post a simple 'thank you' in that language. If it is so easy for the cache owner to translate a log it should be no more difficult for the finder to use the same technology to post in the language the cache owner understands.

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Can you reference the section of the guidelines you're talking about?

 

There are many, many puzzle caches that require the use of third party internet resources in some form or another.

 

It should also be noted that the guidelines are aimed at cache owners, not finders. Guidelines can be found here:

 

http://www.google.com/uds/samples/language/detect.html

Actully, the guidelines can be found here.

 

I believe the pertinent section says:

Caches that require a geocacher to visit another website will not be published if the finder must create an account with, or provide personal information to, the other website.
. . . so cx1 isn't right. They may be thinking about the part that says:
...the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page.
However, the next sentance specifically says:
For example, a puzzle that requires research on public websites in order to determine the coordinates may be acceptable...
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I think I read about this theory once, in a book called "The Ugly American."

Surprisingly (or not) the vast majority of out-of-country visitors have logged my caches in English. I did log one, once, in Morse Code...

Google Translator does a better job translating the log from Other Language into English. Well, it comes out as bad, but you can figure out what was said, and the log is written in a proper languaage. The alternative of having the logger translate his/her thoughts into English via Google leaves a badly writted log. Reminds me of a log by my brother for a cache in Quebec: "J'ai gauche un bug."

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You can only find this cache if you write your log in a language I understand

 

On all physical caches, cachers can log with entirely blank logs.

 

So language doesn't enter into logging at all. I'm not certain that it does in any logging of any cache, at least online. Virts can require an email, which presumably ought to be coherent to the cache owner, or the logger runs the risk of having their find deleted.

 

Earthcaches also make some logging requests. I guess perhaps the issue of understandable to the cache owner arises there, but if that's point of this conversation, logging of Earthcaches, then perhaps it should move into the Earthcaches forum?

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Because I would like to log caches if I ever get the opportunity to travel outside the USA, and these logs would be a heck of a lot more than TFTC.

 

I've logged caches in several different countries where English is not the predominant language. That includes French, German, Chinese, Catalan, Dutch, Afrikaans, and Swahili. I've always posted in English but if many of the other logs on the cache are in a different language I at least try to write "Thank you for the cache" in that language.

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I've logged a cache in morse code, binary, a punch card and a MS Tag. Being 1/4 Cherokee, my nexst log will be in Cherokee.

I've just finished translating "Took nothing left nothing. Thanks for the hide." into Klingon. That will be part of my standard found log going forward. Seems appropriate... GreyWink.gif

 

GreySquint.gif

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Anyway, to me it still seems rather lazy and self-centered not to at least attempt to log in the language native to the cache page.

 

On a server that resides in an English-speaking country for an English-speaking company that supports a game/sport/hobby that originated in an English-speaking country? Doesn't seem lazy or self-centered to me.

 

Frankly, posting a hacked-up Google translation of a comment for a language I don't speak seems somewhat impractical and possibly confusing.

 

As for the reverse, I think it would be kinda cool to see a log one of my caches in another language. smile.gif

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On a server that resides in an English-speaking country for an English-speaking company that supports a game/sport/hobby that originated in an English-speaking country? Doesn't seem lazy or self-centered to me.

 

And thanking someone for a service that you gained enjoyment from but doing it in a method the recipient can not understand because you do not care if they can understand it does seem lazy and self-centered to me.

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Because I would like to log caches if I ever get the opportunity to travel outside the USA, and these logs would be a heck of a lot more than TFTC.

 

Also any non-English speaking geocacher has the right to log any cache I own. If I have ANY doubt they actually found it I just do what ANY cache owner should I go and check my cache. 65% of the false logs are on caches that have absent owners (I'd say another 25-30% is due to peoples own definition of a find).

 

 

75% of all statistics quoted on the internet are made up.

The other half are usually wrong.

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On a server that resides in an English-speaking country for an English-speaking company that supports a game/sport/hobby that originated in an English-speaking country? Doesn't seem lazy or self-centered to me.

 

And thanking someone for a service that you gained enjoyment from but doing it in a method the recipient can not understand because you do not care if they can understand it does seem lazy and self-centered to me.

 

It's your prerogative to assign a reason to another person's behavior without additional information, but note I also said...

 

Frankly, posting a hacked-up Google translation of a comment for a language I don't speak seems somewhat impractical and possibly confusing.

As for the reverse, I think it would be kinda cool to see a log one of my caches in another language. smile.gif

 

There can be all kinds of reasons why someone might choose to post in their native language. It isn't always 'laziness' or 'self-centered' behavior.

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On a server that resides in an English-speaking country for an English-speaking company that supports a game/sport/hobby that originated in an English-speaking country? Doesn't seem lazy or self-centered to me.

 

And thanking someone for a service that you gained enjoyment from but doing it in a method the recipient can not understand because you do not care if they can understand it does seem lazy and self-centered to me.

 

While that may be true, the fact is that English is almost always the language used for any sort of international business. I do quite a bit of work with a well known UN agency and although there are 192 member states there are only six "official languages" recognized; English, French, Spanish, Chinese, Arabic, and Russian. All UN websites must be available in English, French, and Spanish. Many will also be available in Chinese and Arabic (I've never seen one in Russian). When I asked why languages such as Japanese, German, or any of the Slavic languages were not represented I was told that in most countries they *prefer* to do business in English.

 

On the other hand, this *is* an international game and any attempt to communicate in a language that both the cache owner and cache finder understands will typically be appreciated by both.

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It's your prerogative to assign a reason to another person's behavior without additional information, but note I also said...

 

Frankly, posting a hacked-up Google translation of a comment for a language I don't speak seems somewhat impractical and possibly confusing.

As for the reverse, I think it would be kinda cool to see a log one of my caches in another language. smile.gif

 

 

Yet that is what the cache owner is going to end up with anyway when they go to Google to try and figure out what was written.

So why not be polite and save the cache owner the extra work?

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It's your prerogative to assign a reason to another person's behavior without additional information, but note I also said...

 

Frankly, posting a hacked-up Google translation of a comment for a language I don't speak seems somewhat impractical and possibly confusing.

As for the reverse, I think it would be kinda cool to see a log one of my caches in another language. smile.gif

 

 

Yet that is what the cache owner is going to end up with anyway when they go to Google to try and figure out what was written.

So why not be polite and save the cache owner the extra work?

 

You're assuming they don't already speak English (in my case).

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Anyway, to me it still seems rather lazy and self-centered not to at least attempt to log in the language native to the cache page.

Seriously??? GreySurprized.gif You would actually be so offended by someone logging a cache in their native language that you would brand them as "lazy" and "self-centered"? Seriously??? GreySurprized.gif Don't you think, at the very least, that is just a little bit inhospitable to a visitor to your country?

 

I've had a few non-English logs on my caches over the years and I'm always thrilled to see them. Far from being offended that someone didn't respect me enough to log their find in my native language, I'm thrilled that they singled out my cache as one of the few (out of many thousands) they would hunt during their visit to my corner of the world.

GreyDancingAnim.gif

 

I guess we all have our own ways of perceiving and interacting with the world around us...

 

GreySquint.gif

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You're assuming they don't already speak English (in my case).

 

Since I don't have the psychic power to predict what language a cache owner may know other then the language the cache page is written in the most direct course for communication of my satisfaction with their cache would be in the same language as their cache page.

 

If I am granted the honor and privilege to cache in a foreign country the least I can do is try and and thank them for that privilege in their native language and not expect them to simply learn mine.

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Why is everyone so xenophobic? :(

 

I hope that is not what you see as my point.

I enjoy other cultures. I am looking at the situation from the perspective where "I" would be the foreigner. I think it would be rude of me to make the cache owner do any extra work to try figure out I am thanking them for the cache.

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I would not cut and paste a Google translation into the log entry without noting that it is from Google Translate. I cannot say what rule of etiquette (if any) that it violates, it just doesn't feel right to me.

 

Personally I think it is better to add a URL to Google translate to automatically translate the entry.

 

For example, to translate this log (in Japanese) into English, I would add this link at the end of the log. And in this case, you can see why - if the CO assumed you wrote that translated log originally, he'd probably think you were drunk when you typed that.

 

Even requesting (not mandating, which is clearly against guidelines) finders to log only in a language you understand seems rather hostile.

 

BTW, to the OP, do you know how to post non European language text in logs? A straight cut and paste will not work, you need to use HTML escape sequences.

Edited by Chrysalides
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As a resident of a non-English-speaking country, I strongly prefer that cachers write logs in their native language. Google translate does a terrible job converting between Japanese and English - the results are often incomprehensible. If I have the cachers` orginal text, I can translate it myself and gain a better understanding of what they meant.

 

Also, it is very common for Japanese cachers to write one line in English (Thanks for the cache) and then several lines in Japanese. If I were to require finders to write in their non-native language, they might limit themselves to just the TFTC part and I would miss the richer detail provided in their native language.

 

For example, here is one log on a cache I found recently:

DNF.

Give up!

-in J

最初、荒い地図を見て、えっ中央分離帯?と思いましたが、行ってみると素敵な歩道が。

ゼロ地点の怪しいポイントは一通り見たのですが見つからず、これ以上は土下座ポーズが必要ですが、除雪あと状態だったので土下座は断念して諦めました。

 

"DNF. Give up!" is not very informative. The Japanese text provides greater detail about their cache search - they were looking along the pedestrian walkway in the center of the street(which is the correct area), but because of the snow chose not to kneel and look under the benches (which is actually necessary for finding the cache.) "DNF. Give up!" might suggest to an owner that the cache might be missing, but the information in the Japanese text shows the searcher just wasn't looking in the right way. If I had been the owner and had demanded English-only, the cacher would probably have left it at "DNF. Give up!" and I would have missed out on the details.

 

I hid a new cache several months ago, among some ruins on a mountain that is currently covered in snow. Yesterday, someone finally logged it, and all they wrote is "I found it in the snow." I`m guessing it`s a Japanese person without much confidence in their English abilities. I wish they had gone ahead and written some Japanese, even if I would have to translate it myself. I would love to know how the heck they came to be finding my cache at this time of year.

Edited by Happy Bubbles
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For example, here is one log on a cache I found recently:

DNF.

Give up!

-in J

最初、荒い地図を見て、えっ中央分離帯?と思いましたが、行ってみると素敵な歩道が。

ゼロ地点の怪しいポイントは一通り見たのですが見つからず、これ以上は土下座ポーズが必要ですが、除雪あと状態だったので土下座は断念して諦めました。

 

 

And the translation from Google Translate comes back with:

 

First rough look at the map, median eh? I thought that, but with a nice trail visiting.

Ground zero point is found suspicious as I saw one, it requires a pause or prostrate, prostrate condition it was given up after the snow gave up.

 

I've not used Google Translate much, but that's pretty incoherent compared to what Happy Bubbles wrote. Personally, I would make the effort to write something in the language native to the area, perhaps not the whole log, but a sentence or two or maybe write the whole log in my language and run it through an web translator and paste the results underneath my english log. As long as it wasn't gibberish (well, unintended gibberish!).

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One thing some are missing here.

The non english speaking cache finder, Had to at some point translate the cache page to there native language to be able to find it.

 

As a co I would be pleased they took that effort.

And in this case turn about is fair play. And I would have no problem with using Google to translate there log.

 

I would cut and past the translation in a note along with the original text.

Edited by Scooter Rider
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As a resident of a non-English-speaking country, I strongly prefer that cachers write logs in their native language.

 

Actually, I have written almost all of my 1700+ logs in English. I do not think that this ever caused a problem to someone knowing English.

Personally, I would not add a statement to my cache pages regarding the logging language. I take howeever the liberty (except in special cases and for maintenance issues) to write my logs in English as I regard English as the language of geocaching (in the same way as it is the language in which international business is done, in which scientists communicate with each other etc). I never would have started geocaching back in 2002 if I had not regarded this activity as international one and if it had been as localized as it is now (nowadays there are even Groundspeak reviewers who are not fluent in English).

 

I guess what you intend to say with the statement that I cited above is that a log done exclusively in a foreign language by someone who has a very poor command of that language is often not very helpful.

 

Google translate does a terrible job converting between Japanese and English - the results are often incomprehensible.

 

That's not only true for Japanese <-> English and is well known.

 

If I have the cachers` orginal text, I can translate it myself and gain a better understanding of what they meant.

 

You can do that if you have some command of the language. Try to translate e.g. Hungarian logs. Without at least some basic knowledge of the Hungarian

language, this will be quite difficult.

 

I hid a new cache several months ago, among some ruins on a mountain that is currently covered in snow. Yesterday, someone finally logged it, and all they wrote is "I found it in the snow." I`m guessing it`s a Japanese person without much confidence in their English abilities. I wish they had gone ahead and written some Japanese, even if I would have to translate it myself. I would love to know how the heck they came to be finding my cache at this time of year.

 

Such short logs which are not informative at all are routinely to be found in my area - they all come from cachers writing in their native language. "If found it in the snow" even tells more than ".", "TFTC", "Found quickly", "Logged from my mobile device" etc.

 

 

Cezanne

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