Why is this a bad thing?

[+tango501]

does this break the ALR rules?

[Clan Riffster]

I have a cache that requires finders to log using Swedish Chef speak.

"Bork Bork!" http://coord.info/GCT5D3

Given the ALR guideline, I think I better reword that one.

[+redsox_mark]

 

If I travel to Germany, go on-line and find a cache page written in German and decide to post a log the burden should be on me to post in German. Why should the German cache owner have to make special accommodations for me to log their cache?

 

I understand and agree with the general principal that it is polite to try and learn a bit of the native language when travelling. I try and learn some basic phrases, most importantly "Thank You".

 

I was just in Germany and found some caches. I don't speak German (though I do know "danke" is thanks). There is just no way I can write a quality log in German. I would if I could. And as others have said, I see no advantage in my using a translation tool to write my logs, as they will likely not be readable.

 

In my logs I did start with a bit of German which says "Sorry I don't speak German"... and I end with "Danke". So the CO knows I did consider his/her native language.. but I just can't write my logs in it.

 

I've not had an non-English log on one of my caches yet, but I'd be excited to get one.

[+hzoi]

Pssh. Can you say xenophobic?

 

Give me a 500 word log alles auf Deutsch over a "." or "TFTC" or "Logged from my mobile device" any day.

[GOF and Bacall]

Pssh. Can you say xenophobic?

 

Give me a 500 word log alles auf Deutsch over a "." or "TFTC" or "Logged from my mobile device" any day.

 

Sorry, I can't say xenophobic. But I have no problem with hippopotamus or basghetti spaghetti.

 

Seriously though, I would get a real kick out of someone from Russia or Germany or wherever posting a found log to one of my caches. As log as they actually found it that is.

[+t4e]

One thing some are missing here.

The non english speaking cache finder, Had to at some point translate the cache page to there native language to be able to find it.

 

 

and why is that?....i cached in other countries and the cache description was not in english, i never translated it and still found them

 

coordinates are all you need for the majority of caches, unless you want to get into earthcaches and mysteries, but i wouldn't dare just relying on google translate

[+Ecylram]

Pssh. Can you say xenophobic?

 

"

."

 

Xenophobia is defined as the "hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture".

 

For many of us, posting a log in our own language is a sign of respect to the CO as we don't wish to mangle the translation and we would enjoy a log on our own caches in the speaker's native tongue.

 

A choice made for reasons such as that is neither 'hatred' or 'fear'-based. Frankly, xenophobic individuals make a point of not visiting countries and cultures they despise...let alone log about it.

 

Let's not get in the habit of assigning a negative term or belief to a whole swath of individuals.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Ecylram

[+bflentje]

I will log any caches I find in my native language.

I will expect anyone finding my caches to log in theirs.

If the finders can somehow manage to post a meaningful log in my language...MORE POWER TO THEM!

Why is everyone so xenophobic?

 

Ditto, except for the unnecessary xenophobic comment.

[+cx1]

Pssh. Can you say xenophobic?

 

"

."

 

Xenophobia is defined as the "hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture".

 

For many of us, posting a log in our own language is a sign of respect to the CO as we don't wish to mangle the translation and we would enjoy a log on our own caches in the speaker's native tongue.

 

A choice made for reasons such as that is neither 'hatred' or 'fear'-based. Frankly, xenophobic individuals make a point of not visiting countries and cultures they despise...let alone log about it.

 

Let's not get in the habit of assigning a negative term or belief to a whole swath of individuals.

Thank you for this post.

There is nothing xenophobic in my position on this issue.

I now understand the concern for for possible insult by posting a mangled Google translation of a log as opposed to posting a log in your native language. However if in the end the cache owner is going to end up with the mangled translation anyway (because not all are multilingual) to me it would be more polite to save them (and everyone else who reads the logs) the step and post the translation yourself.

Many might enjoy the occasional foreign visitor posting their logs in their (the finder's) native language. However could it not also be true that a cache owner with a cache that has become popular with non-native speaking cachers might grow weary of constantly needing to translate logs to ensure they are on-topic?

 

Yes requiring a specific language in a log would be an ALR.

Requiring any language at all in a log is an ALR since logs can be blank.

 

This topic had popped up several times and I didn't understand all the issues behind it. I had a genuine curiosity because I did not think many people logged caches in languages other then what the cache page was written.

 

Thank you to those who took the time to explain your positions without using trivial and pointless insults.

[+hzoi]

Since you picked part of my post and ignored the other part, I'll post it again.

 

Give me a 500 word log alles auf Deutsch over a "." or "TFTC" or "Logged from my mobile device" any day.

 

Is it your view that "." or "TFTC" or "Logged from my mobile device" is more respectful to a cache owner than a 500-word log in the cacher's native language?

 

We started caching in Europe, and we still have a few hundred more finds in Europe than we do in the United States. We've cached in 34 countries/territories outside of the United States, and other than Jersey, the UK, and Ireland, the primary language was not English. I speak limited German, limited French, and no Catalan, Spanish, Portugese, Polish, Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, Icelandic, Croatian, Slovenian, Greek, Maltese, Czech, Slovakian, Ukranian, Bulgarian, Luxemburgish, Flemish, Dutch, Danish, Estonian, Italian, or Latin (2 caches in Vatican City). I logged every single one of our finds in English, and when I look back at most of the caches at popular destinations around Europe, it is a melting pot of languages. I made many friends in Germany, cachers and not, and they all knew that I spoke little German and had no problem speaking English with me. They were not offended, because they felt I was a guest in their country and were gracious enough to treat me like one.

 

So when I say I think this attitude is xenophobic, I'm not exaggerating, I think it's xenophobic. I know what the word means, and I think that's the attitude that's displayed here. Obviously you disagree.

 

There is no official language of the United States. The primary language is English, but that's primary, not official. Heck, here in our current home in Alabama, you can view state websites (example) in English, Spanish, German, Korean, and Japanese. And the last time I looked, geocaching.com in English, Deutsch, Français, Português, Čeština, Svenska, Nederlands, Català, and Polski.

 

Be glad folks are logging your caches, especially if they are logging in another language. They came hundreds or thousands of miles to log your cache -- do you think they did it so they could be disrespectful to you?

 

Don't take offense if they don't log in English because it's not intended.

 

(edits: spelling)

Edited January 25, 2011 by hzoi

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Pssh. Can you say xenophobic?

 

Give me a 500 word log alles auf Deutsch over a "." or "TFTC" or "Logged from my mobile device" any day.

 

Sorry, I can't say xenophobic. But I have no problem with hippopotamus or basghetti spaghetti.

 

Seriously though, I would get a real kick out of someone from Russia or Germany or wherever posting a found log to one of my caches. As log as they actually found it that is.

 

I dig it as well. I adopted the oldest cache in Rhode Island, and it gets its fair share of visitors from around the world. When I log from a visitor, I translate it.

 

And just to through it into the mix, what about Travelers? Is it expected that when a TB or Coin goes global, loggers post logs for them in the language of the originating country?

 

No.

 

Just go and use Google Language tools. Sheesh.

[+Coldgears]

 

Why is everyone so xenophobic?

 

I hope that is not what you see as my point.

I enjoy other cultures. I am looking at the situation from the perspective where "I" would be the foreigner. I think it would be rude of me to make the cache owner do any extra work to try figure out I am thanking them for the cache.

"extra work" as in, quite literally, two seconds? Is breathing extra work for you too? Would you rather them post a blank log or a "." because that's a completely LEGAL alternative.

[+cx1]

Is breathing extra work for you too? Would you rather them post a blank log or a "." because that's a completely LEGAL alternative.

I dunno, is reading comprehension extra work for you?

I have made it clear several times now that from a log writers perspective, that is me writing my log on a cache page owned by another person in another country, again me writing my log (you get it yet) that to me it would be more polite and respectful to the cache owner (which is not me) and require less work on their (not my) part if my log were written in a fashion that they could understand.

The cache owner went to the trouble to place the cache.

The cache owner went to the trouble to list and maintain the cache.

The cache owner is responsible to maintain the logs posted to ensure they are on-topic, not bogus and are not filled with profanity written in another language.

As part of my thank you to that cache owner I would write my logs in a language they could understand so they can ensure the log I wrote meets the log posting guidelines without the cache owner needing to go through the added steps of translation.

 

So with that all stated once again, why would I be concerned with a blank log? What does a blank log have to do with me trying to be polite by writing my log in the language that matches the cache page?

[+Chrysalides]

I have made it clear several times now that from a log writers perspective, that is me writing my log on a cache page owned by another person in another country, again me writing my log (you get it yet) that to me it would be more polite and respectful to the cache owner (which is not me) and require less work on their (not my) part if my log were written in a fashion that they could understand.

Part of the reason why this thread generated more than its fair share of angst is the thread title (specifically, the topic description).

 

If you can write in the log owner's native language, by all means do so. If you're not able to do so, and rely on Google Translate, how do you know you're not inadvertently introducing profanity? Or if the translated text even makes sense?

[+Too Tall John]

I have a cache that requires finders to log using Swedish Chef speak.

"Bork Bork!" http://coord.info/GCT5D3

Given the ALR guideline, I think I better reword that one.

Just go and use Google Language tools. Sheesh.

Huh.

 

Funny you should mention it.

 

[Andronicus]

I would not expect the finder to log in my language, but if logging in a foreign country, I would post in English, followed by the google translate version of their language. Not sure how good the translate would be. I know sometimes it butchers it.

[+ekhoc]

OK, so I'm going off topic but is there an equivalent of TFTC and TNLNSL abbreviations that are used in some non-english speaking countries?

For Finnish, the abbreviations commonly seen are KK (kiitos kätköstä - TFTC) and EOEJ (en ottanut, en jättänyt -TNLN)

[Dj Storm]

For the first caches that I found in non-English speaking countries, I made the extra effort of translating the log into the native language. this involved writing the language in English, translating into the native language, translating the result back to English, noticing the discrepancies, modifying the original log, translating and translating back, and so on, until what I got was understandable. This took a significant amount of time, and usually I had to break my log in short sentences and leave out some parts that couldn't be translated correctly.

 

I prefer to write at least a paragraph for each cache I search for. After the first foreign caches I started to write the logs in English only; these caches were in tourist destinations, and either had the description also in English or had many logs before mine in English only.

As for my country (Romania), 99% of the caches have English listings. There are more caches with English only listings than caches with Romanian only listings. All my logs on domestic caches are in English only, and most Romanian cachers log their finds in English. So far no cache owner contacted me regarding the language of my logs.

 

If someone finds (or DNF's) my caches, I prefer them to write a longer log in any language they know. When a foreigner logs a cache with "Found it", I start suspecting armchair logging.

[+Happy Humphrey]

I can hardly believe that this is a serious discussion. Surely the OP can see that such an ALR isn't practical?

 

As an example, it's quite possible that within the space of a few days I find caches in Spain, France, Germany, Netherlands and Italy. I've certainly cached in Germany and France on the same day. You could do that inadvertently; the border is hard to spot on the ground.

 

Perhaps I do only one or two in each country, on a casual basis in addition to touring around. I'd probably log the caches the same day using a PDA, or with limited web access. Am I seriously being berated for not learning enough German, Spanish, French, Dutch and Italian to write up my visit?

 

I might go as far as researching "Thanks" in all the languages of the countries I'm likely to visit. But that would be it. That this is an English-speaking website is a red herring. I'd have to do the same if it was multilingual.

[+currykev]

I quite enjopy receiving logs in a language I do not understand.

It's mostly Czech cachers here in London.

 

If it is stated that the log needs to be in a language that the owner understands....

Then those that don't speak that language will obviously not realise this strange request.

[+redsox_mark]

I think the OP's intent is based on goodwill. He/She feels it is a courtesy to the CO to post in their native language (the language the cache page is written in). And I can understand that.

 

I don't think such a rule is practical, and I'm not convinced it is the right thing to do anyway. Mainly because:

 

1) If I write in my native language (English), then at least there is an accurate version of my log. If I use automatic translation, the log may not translate well.

 

2) The logs are for multiple customers, not just the cache owner. For one, I like to look back at my old logs. Also, others may want to read them, looking for hints. Many people reading the logs may speak English, and prefer well written English to badly translated German (or whatever language).

 

I suppose one solution could be to do both: Write the log in my native language, then put the header "Google Translation", and include the translated version as well. That way the original log is not lost; if the reader knows English (in my case) they can read that. If they don't know English, they can read the translated log (which may not be accurate, but will be the same as if the reader used the same translation tool).

 

Apart from making the logs longer, I don't see a problem with providing both. But I would not make it a rule.

[+Happy Humphrey]

2) The logs are for multiple customers, not just the cache owner. For one, I like to look back at my old logs. Also, others may want to read them, looking for hints. Many people reading the logs may speak English, and prefer well written English to badly translated German (or whatever language).

That's also a good point. I always regard my cache logs as mine, i.e. written for me to re-read. It's my notes about cache find attempts. That the CO also reads them is a side effect, as is the fact that others can read them. That's not saying that these side effects are unimportant, but the main reason for logging online is to record my caching for my own purposes. Imagine if your log text went straight to the cache owner and you could never see it again; how many detailed logs would get written then?

 

It would be great if I could write in the CO's language as well (assuming he/she speaks the language of the country in question!), but really that can't be expected.

[AZcachemeister]

And now that totally BLANK logs are blessed as acceptable by Jeremy himself, everyone can log in the owners native language, no matter how obscure.

[+Coldgears]

Give it up. Not one person agree's with you... There's a reason for that. If you make them post in your language it's an ALR, if you just think it's rude and shouldn't be done then this thread is just a huge complaint, not one person agrees with you anyway, in fact most people PERFER to get logs in another language. If you really care all that much (I think you're really the only one) then spend two seconds in google translate... TWO SECONDS, is all it takes. Everyone else is just happy to get a log at all, considering blank logs are quite common. But, you don't care about blank ones for some reason... Makes no sense.

[+cx1]

Give it up. Not one person agree's with you... There's a reason for that. If you make them post in your language it's an ALR, if you just think it's rude and shouldn't be done then this thread is just a huge complaint, not one person agrees with you anyway, in fact most people PERFER to get logs in another language. If you really care all that much (I think you're really the only one) then spend two seconds in google translate... TWO SECONDS, is all it takes. Everyone else is just happy to get a log at all, considering blank logs are quite common. But, you don't care about blank ones for some reason... Makes no sense.

 

**sigh**

I am not asking for anyone to post in my language.

I stated before you even started posting in this thread that requiring a log in a specific language would be an ALR.

Yet you still try insist that what I am asking for is an ALR as if I don't already understand and acknowledge that.

And you continue to drag in blank logs which have nothing to do with the main topic.

 

You feel that it is fine to force the cache owner to perform an extra task.

 

I feel it is more polite to log where the cache owner can understand what I am writing without the cache owner needing to perform any extra steps.

Along the same lines that I think it is more polite to simply write "Thank you for the cache" as opposed to writing "Oh another film can, /yawn. TFTC"

And yes since you insist on continuing to drag the issue into this thread for some reason I do think a blank log is less polite then writing "Thank you for the cache" for a found log.

 

So out of the "Found it" logging options available to me:

1 - A blank log

2 - A brief thank you that the owner can immediately understand

3 - A log that the cache owner may not be able to understand

 

All three options are valid logging options.

 

I am going to pick option 2

I originally thought that the majority of cachers would also pick option 2. Perhaps they don't.

But since I am allowed to pick option 2 that is the option I still choose to use.

[+Happy Humphrey]

So out of the "Found it" logging options available to me:

1 - A blank log

2 - A brief thank you that the owner can immediately understand

3 - A log that the cache owner may not be able to understand

 

All three options are valid logging options.

 

I am going to pick option 2

I originally thought that the majority of cachers would also pick option 2. Perhaps they don't.

But since I am allowed to pick option 2 that is the option I still choose to use.

...but what if you wanted to write about your experience of the cache? I think that a lot of us assume you meant that the whole log should be understood by the CO. It's one thing to know how to write, "Merci, bonne cache.", but what if you want to describe your five-mile walk there, the fall in the river and the frowny security guard with dog, followed by a bit of a rant about the location and hint? Not for the CO's benefit particularly but so you can remember the cache should you look through your old log entries? A bit more of a task than a "brief thank you".

[+addisonbr]

cx1, I think the point you have recently been trying to make is quite a bit different from the title of the thread from your original post:

 

Why is this a bad thing? "You can only find this cache if you write your log in a language I und[erstand]"

That seems to say that you think such a requirement would be fine. The content of the original post is in the same vein (not relating to politeness, but rather the argument that a CO may not be able to fulfill his maintenance duties without a native language requirement).

 

I can see that what you have been trying to say in your most recent posts is that you consider it a nice gesture to log foreign CO caches in the native tongue of the cache page. I think it's great that you make that effort. But as long as this thread exists with the title "Why is this a bad thing? You can only find this cache if you write your log in a language I understand", and with the content of your original post, you're going to have a hard time getting people to move off of that.

 

My advice is to ask the moderators to close this thread, and to start a new thread called "Sharing Tips on Logging in a CO's Native Language" and see where that conversation goes. It will probably be a less frustrating experience for all involved.

[+Happy Humphrey]

...

My advice is to ask the moderators to close this thread, and to start a new thread called "Sharing Tips on Logging in a CO's Native Language" and see where that conversation goes. It will probably be a less frustrating experience for all involved.

Even more to the point, the title should be "Tips for showing gratitude for a cache in foreign languages".

[+cx1]

You both may be correct that the comment below the title could be misunderstood as to my intent.

It wasn't really my comment but rather a direct cut and paste from a different thread. That is why I put it in the quote box.

The comment I 'borrowed' from the other thread seemed to be ranking the idea the a cache owner wanting only logs in their language was equal in distaste to a cache owner only wanting a certain race of people logging their cache. I did not see the correlation because I don't automatically assume the worst of people.

I took my position from idea of why would a cache owner want logs in a certain language.

Firstly I though that surely that isn't really an issue because I would not write logs the owner couldn't understand and assumed most other cachers would not either. So there must be another reason behind it.

I was of the opinion that there could perhaps be legitimate reasons for that cache owner wanting logs they could understand (irregardless of language) and tried to explore those reasons in my first post. Ease of maintaining correct logs for the cache owner was the main one I could come up with. And I didn't understand why people would want to make the cache owners duties more difficult to perform.

But some people immediately assumed the worst, dismissed my ideas rudely and ended up claiming I am a xenophobe. So it does appear there was a communication issue. Somewhat ironic considering the subject really.

 

But my participation in this thread is now over (I can hear the cheers already). If people still wish to post their thinly veiled personal insults or continue the conservation politely as some have done they are free to continue because I will not request a thread lock due to my personal reasons against thread lock use.

[+Ecylram]

...

My advice is to ask the moderators to close this thread, and to start a new thread called "Sharing Tips on Logging in a CO's Native Language" and see where that conversation goes. It will probably be a less frustrating experience for all involved.

Even more to the point, the title should be "Tips for showing gratitude for a cache in foreign languages".

 

I agree as well. I think there was some misinterpretation as to the intent of the OP's question. It appears, as with most things here, there is a difference of opinion on what is the best approach. I've enjoyed hearing the various viewpoints.

[+narcissa]

If you don't automatically assume the worst in people, why do you accuse people of being lazy and rude for logging in their own language?

[+DanOCan]

A recent thread has shown the mistakes in proper log types can and do happen. A person accidentally marks a cache as found but their log clearly shows they did not actually find the cache. So how does a cache owner know if that is the case if they can't understand the log?

 

So with that all stated once again, why would I be concerned with a blank log? What does a blank log have to do with me trying to be polite by writing my log in the language that matches the cache page?

 

So, if the reason the cache owner needs to translate the log is to verify the log is legitimate, then you should have an issue with a blank log as well. Neither one allows you to know whether the log is legitimate or not without doing the only definitive thing -- check the physical log.

 

For the record, I always log a cache in my own language. I have no issues with others logging in their native tounge on my caches either. I don't see the need to translate the log, if I feel the need to do so, is in any way a burden.

[+tomfuller & Quill]

How do you write TFTC in German? One of my caches was logged online with If I log a cache that is written in a language that I don't read/write, I would post a picture of myself with the cache in hand and post Merci, or Danke or whatever.

[+The red-haired witch]

One other reason to let the cache owner (or anyone wanting to read the log in a different language) do the translating : online translation tools improve over time. The translations can still be off now, but they are better than they were 5 years ago.

 

I wouldn't feel comfortable posting some text if I don't know what that text is saying. The translation could have been horribly wrong and I may be posting something insulting. So I'll log in French or English, depending on where I am, the language of the cache page, or what language the cache owner understands (if I know the cache owner). I might try a few words in Spanish if I ever find a cache where it seems appropriate. But if I was to find a cache in Germany or Japan, my log would probably be in English, with a "Danke" or "Domo arigato" at the end. And there are good chances cache owners anywhere understand at least a bit of English too .

[+Chrysalides]

So, if the reason the cache owner needs to translate the log is to verify the log is legitimate, then you should have an issue with a blank log as well. Neither one allows you to know whether the log is legitimate or not without doing the only definitive thing -- check the physical log.

On the other hand, you know there's no profanity or spoilers in a blank log...

 

If I log a cache that is written in a language that I don't read/write, I would post a picture of myself with the cache in hand and post Merci, or Danke or whatever.

A photo can be a spoiler for some caches though. For a few caches, probably even the logsheet.