Commercial buisness names in geocache name or is it?

[knowschad]

My question is simply why was it so important to mention "best buy" in the cache name (or in the cache body, where it ended up anyway) in the first place? Why was in neccessary or even desirable to use those words?

 

 

PS: It is "dead end" (two words), not "deadend" (one word)

[+runawaybunny]

You may get a chuckle out of a cache I placed back a while when there was another round of debate about commercial content. Link

 

Great description. Love it!

[+Castle Mischief]

My question is simply why was it so important to mention "best buy" in the cache name (or in the cache body, where it ended up anyway) in the first place? Why was in neccessary or even desirable to use those words?

 

 

PS: It is "dead end" (two words), not "deadend" (one word)

 

If the bagillion Wal-Mart LPC are any indication, the CO should use an "inventive" and "creative" mutation of the store name. "Wally World" and "Tram Law" are always a welcome and humorous variation of the store name.*

 

Perhaps "Worst Buy", "Bestest Ever", "BB", "Borscht Buoy", or "Beast Boy" would be more acceptable? "Yub Tseb" anybody?

 

 

 

*I jest.

[+wimseyguy]

When the third corner of a nearby intersection was getting its own chain drug store I mentioned to my wife "look honey, we're getting a Sneerglaw to compete with the Rite Aid and CVS." She just gave me that LOOK and rolled her eyes.

 

To the OP-have you ever factored in the reality that the guidelines have been revised several times; especially the commercial one? Perhaps some of the caches that are a thorn in your SIDE were published under a different set of guidelines?

 

I also wonder if you change the case/bold as you are typing, or do it all normal and then go back to edit the words that are deserving?

 

And I bet that most if not all of CM's variants would get published under the current guidelines. While Sams minions have adopted the Wally World as their own, it did start with pop culture and Vacation first.

Edited September 15, 2009 by wimseyguy

[+Smurf]

A Pony? What the heck am I suppose to do with a pony?

 

tie it to a tree in the woods ..... shove a film can up its ar.............................................

 

No sorry , , , , , bad idea

[+sbell111]

 

THAT cracked me right up. Thank you!

You're welcome, glad to help (a rarity for me). Now, back to the business at hand...

 

Reading this thread, I can only draw one conclusion:

Someone needs a hug!

I was thinking that it might be time for a nap (or maybe a change).

Edited September 15, 2009 by sbell111

[+Renegade Knight]

This is in reference to a cache that I am trying to get published.

 

GC1YDYT currently named "This deadend is a best buy."...

 

Your cache is good. There has to be a line on commercial and I think you are on the right side of it.

 

If your cache said "The Best buys are at Best Buys" I'd have to wonder but even then if the name is a clever clue and the cache itself is non commerical who cares?

[+Renegade Knight]

My question is simply why was it so important to mention "best buy" in the cache name (or in the cache body, where it ended up anyway) in the first place? Why was in neccessary or even desirable to use those words?...

 

It's not, but it's far less important and even undesirable for someone to suggest different words or even suggest the non broken words used by the cache owner are broken and need replaced.

 

In other words leave the artist/own to their own devices when doing their own thing and don't butt in with your own two cents when it doesn't matter a flying fig the other way either.

 

Sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine. When someone suggest that something is no big deal, it's normally that someone who's hawking their own thing to replace it when the reality is by thier own logic their own idea is less valuable than the orginal.

[+Castle Mischief]

This is in reference to a cache that I am trying to get published.

 

GC1YDYT currently named "This deadend is a best buy."...

 

Your cache is good. There has to be a line on commercial and I think you are on the right side of it.

 

Clearly, the reviewer felt otherwise.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

What I don't "get" is why you have focused your "campaign" on geocaching; given the same infrastructure and resources, it would be a wonder if we even had a legal "system". I would say: don't sweat it; it's a business. Do you walk into a random shop and start throwing around bolded words or "quotes" because they aren't consistent with their pricing?

 

Becasue it's an obvious problem. That you can't look at caches successfully published for your guidance is merely a weaselly way to say "we don't want to deal with inconsistancy".

 

There are a lot of Jeep caches out there. Someone wanted to use the word Land Rover where others used Jeep. Now the reivewer pops up the commercial flag. What's different? Nothing, Nada, Zilch. It's a legendary 4x4, just like the Jeep.

[knowschad]

This is in reference to a cache that I am trying to get published.

 

GC1YDYT currently named "This deadend is a best buy."...

 

Your cache is good. There has to be a line on commercial and I think you are on the right side of it.

 

If your cache said "The Best buys are at Best Buys" I'd have to wonder but even then if the name is a clever clue and the cache itself is non commerical who cares?

 

 

Clever?!?

 

 

As for the supposed innocence of the name that you seem to be claiming, did you see that the cache is 500 feet from.... guess what?

[knowschad]

There are a lot of Jeep caches out there. Someone wanted to use the word Land Rover where others used Jeep. Now the reivewer pops up the commercial flag. What's different? Nothing, Nada, Zilch. It's a legendary 4x4, just like the Jeep.

 

 

I would think that "Jeep" is considered to be one of those trademarks that has long since lost its association with one particular brand, just like Xerox and Kleenex. Just a guess.

[+Renegade Knight]

This is in reference to a cache that I am trying to get published.

 

GC1YDYT currently named "This deadend is a best buy."...

 

Your cache is good. There has to be a line on commercial and I think you are on the right side of it.

 

Clearly, the reviewer felt otherwise.

Clearly. That's why the debate.

 

I think you can simply this into two parts.

1) Does the cache require interaction wtih a commercial enterprise? Yes commerical.

2) Is it an ad for a business? If Yes, then commercial.

 

Based on the OP's post he doesnt' meet either test.

 

For you and I to say the word "jeep" it's not an automatic ad for a jeep. Nor does it make our post automaticly commerical. It takes more than the use of the printed words we use and say in daily life to cross the line.

[+Jeep_Dog]

 

As for the supposed innocence of the name that you seem to be claiming, did you see that the cache is 500 feet from.... guess what?

 

Uh.... um. Let me guess.... Wal Mart?

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

 

 

I jest....

Edited September 15, 2009 by Jeep_Dog

[+Renegade Knight]

There are a lot of Jeep caches out there. Someone wanted to use the word Land Rover where others used Jeep. Now the reivewer pops up the commercial flag. What's different? Nothing, Nada, Zilch. It's a legendary 4x4, just like the Jeep.

 

 

I would think that "Jeep" is considered to be one of those trademarks that has long since lost its association with one particular brand, just like Xerox and Kleenex. Just a guess.

 

Maybe so given they have "Jeep" trails on topo maps. Still if I call a cache "Corvair Graveyard" it's not automaticly commercial. It could be a simple as an Old Corvair that was pushed off a cliff and is busy rusing out at the base. The description is accurate, non commerical and doesn't endorse Ralph Nader as our future president.

[+StarBrand]

.....

As for the supposed innocence of the name that you seem to be claiming, did you see that the cache is 500 feet from.... guess what?

"This deadend is a best buy."

 

I suspect the vast majority of cachers will tend to notice that fact when they get to the location as well. As for those that do not search for the cache - virtually none would tie it in with the business name.

[+fegan]

A Pony? What the heck am I suppose to do with a pony?

 

tie it to a tree in the woods ..... shove a film can up its ar.............................................

 

No sorry , , , , , bad idea

 

ROTFLMAO

 

Poor pony!

[+sbell111]

.....

As for the supposed innocence of the name that you seem to be claiming, did you see that the cache is 500 feet from.... guess what?

"This deadend is a best buy."

 

I suspect the vast majority of cachers will tend to notice that fact when they get to the location as well. As for those that do not search for the cache - virtually none would tie it in with the business name.

Really? When he mentioned the proposed cache name, I flashed on a micro cache hidden at or near a Best Buy store. I guessed pill bottle in a bush, but that was only a guess.

Edited September 15, 2009 by sbell111

[+Cpl. Klinger]

There are a lot of Jeep caches out there. Someone wanted to use the word Land Rover where others used Jeep. Now the reivewer pops up the commercial flag. What's different? Nothing, Nada, Zilch. It's a legendary 4x4, just like the Jeep.

 

 

I would think that "Jeep" is considered to be one of those trademarks that has long since lost its association with one particular brand, just like Xerox and Kleenex. Just a guess.

 

Maybe so given they have "Jeep" trails on topo maps. Still if I call a cache "Corvair Graveyard" it's not automaticly commercial. It could be a simple as an Old Corvair that was pushed off a cliff and is busy rusing out at the base. The description is accurate, non commerical and doesn't endorse Ralph Nader as our future president.

 

Apples and oranges. Besides, the Ralph Nader connection (yes, I know the story) puzzles me. Corvair is a name that is attached to an item that cannot be bought or sold in traditional terms anymore, or at least be promoted as Best Buy can. I could create a cache about Packards, or Vought Aircraft, or Milli Vanilli and they would be hard to make commercial. You can't buy a Packard from a dealership, Vought Aircraft hasn't produced an aircraft of it's own for ages, and MV is... well, you get the picture. If you created your Corvair cache, and it was worthwhile, I'd hunt it and not think twice.

 

The main issue I still find troubling is the desire to make this fight public. The best manner to solve this specific issue is through negotiating with Groundspeak and your reviewer. If you want to question the policy as a whole, while keeping your private battle out of the fray, fine. In fact, I would encourage open policy debate. But keep your debates focused on the policy.

[+Cpl. Klinger]

.....

As for the supposed innocence of the name that you seem to be claiming, did you see that the cache is 500 feet from.... guess what?

"This deadend is a best buy."

 

I suspect the vast majority of cachers will tend to notice that fact when they get to the location as well. As for those that do not search for the cache - virtually none would tie it in with the business name.

Really, because when he mentioned the proposed cache name, I flashed on a micro cache hidden at or near a Best Buy store. I guessed pill bottle in a bush, but that was only a guess.

 

Might this be a good candidate for a no-description cache? I know I'd probably not need one, not even a hint!

[+Chewy_06]

Ive read this thread with interest - largely because I've been planning a cache that I want to locate across the street from a Kodak site.

 

My plan, which might have a problem now, was to call it something along the lines of a "Kodak Moment Cache" & I was going to include a one time use camera in it with a request for cachers to take photos while there that I was going to post.

 

I was aware of the guideline about commercial caches, and had figured i'd have been okay based on my interpretation of the wording of the guideline. But, based on what I'm reading here, it's being taken very liberally.

 

If reference to something being a best buy wont fly, neither should a company name which has found it's way into common language (which is my argument for using it).

 

I wonder (aloud) about other company names that have found their way into common usage - and whether they'd also be restricted from use as well.

 

And, for what it's worth, all of this just serves to highlight the really big problem with guidelines. Especially when they're being attempted to be applied as policy. They arent constructed for that purpose and fail more often than they succeed - and more often than not, inconsistencies get attributed to "they're just guidelines afterall" - which shouldnt be acceptable. Considering this, wouldnt it just be so much easier to just create firm policy on some of the contentious items that way it's uniform and not grey? Exceptions could be made - just document them and add them to the policy so that other cases can follow.

 

I might try my kodak moment cache anyway just to see whether it gets through. I guess I could reword the title.

[+bflentje]

This is in reference to a cache that I am trying to get published.

 

GC1YDYT currently named "This deadend is a best buy."

 

I am using the WORDS "best buy" as a TERM/PHRASE... NOT as a commercial business name refereing to the business of "BEST BUY".

 

The reviewer came back and denied my cache saying commercial names can't be used in cache names. I fully understand this policy. I DON"T have a problem with this. So I renamed my cache to the above cache name using the TERM/PHRASE. He/she came back and said if I didn't correct the problem, he would permantely archive said cache.

 

I then pointed out that their ARE other geocache sites out there that USE the name BEST BUY, WALMART, etc... out their in their cache names.

 

I also then WROTE an appeal to Groundspeak.com claiming my reasons that MY cache name should be allowed.... The letter/email is as follows...

 

"I would like to appeal the reviewers current decesion on the following cache.

 

GC1YDYT currently named "This deadend is a best buy."

 

Please check the current logs as to the reviewers notes and my notes posted for the reviewer.

 

I am "NOT" using the NAME best buy as the commercial business, but only as a TERM/phrase. Such as this car is your best buy.

 

If you still feel that this is in violation of your TOS. Then I would like to refer you to the following CURRENT cache hides that ARE using a commercial name in them. This name commercial name is a name that you CAN'T even argue as being a phrase name.

 

All of the following use the name "WALMART" in them. These are 5 examples. There are 25 MORE geocaches that use the name "WALMART" in them.

 

"Better than Walmart" http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...c2-97ba09606d79

 

A Regular at Walmart?!? http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...21-2683c27666dc

 

A Relic of the Pre-WalMart Era http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...cf-fb54706c1a3f

 

Behind the WalMart http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...7b-0cdc7da4eaea

 

Cache Renewal at WalMart 72E http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ff41ace7f\

 

All of the following use the name "COKE" in them. These are 2 examples. There are 102 MORE geocaches that use the name "COKE" in them. "Coke" is a registered TRADEMARK owned by the Coca-Cola Company.

 

1 Ounce Coke http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ad-15897baaaeb5

 

4 Fried Chickens and a Coke http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...e5-eb950817b9e3

 

All of the following use the name "Burger King" in them. These are 2 examples.

 

Burger King Reigned Here! http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...1e-19a2b03dc435

 

You might want to eat at Burger King Gas Saver http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...19-25a28b34ff3a

 

AI can list at least 250 MORE caches that use a commercial business name in them. That use the following COMMERCIAL buisness names in them such as... McDonalds, Taco Bell, KFC, Pepsi, Best Buy.

 

Yet this reviewer is NOT publishing my cache simply because I want to use the TERM/PHRASE best buy. Not the commercial name of it!

 

Please see to this matter ASAP. Thank you

 

TGC"

 

If you do a search on various COMMERCIAL business names you WILL easily find that there are OVER 1,000+ geocache names out there that use a COMMERCIAL name in them to some point. Commercial names that ARE trademarked (Such as Coke, & Pepsi) as well as others.

 

Commercial names that have NO OTHER possible meanings or USES to them. The WORDS "BEST" and "BUY" are NOT words that can be trademarked by themselvs. They are words that can be used for other meanings and purposes. Even when used together.

 

Pepsi, Taco Bell, WALMART are commercial names that have NO OTHER meaning other than to represent the COMMERCIAL business that they are.

 

Tell me... should mine be allowed or not? And if NOT why? And if NOT... then WHY should the other geocache sites be allowed that ARE using commercial names?

 

Thank you

 

TGC

 

P.S. This cache has now been published with the current name of "This deadend is a....", However it has been "Disabled" by myself until resolution from my "Apeal" process has been negotiated with Groundspeak.com.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...5a-b0db835090ff

 

Oh gawd, not this topic again.

[+Castle Mischief]

 

Clearly, the reviewer felt otherwise.

Clearly. That's why the debate.

 

I think you can simply this into two parts.

1) Does the cache require interaction with a commercial enterprise? Yes commercial.

2) Is it an ad for a business? If Yes, then commercial.

 

Based on the OP's post he doesn't' meet either test.

 

 

It met the reviewer's test. That's all that really matters. You can debate until you're blue in the face, but since it's not your cache and you're not the reviewer your opinion doesn't really come into play in this situation.

 

I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, just saying that meeting your own personal interpretations of guidelines isn't the concern of the CO or the reviewer.

[+Castle Mischief]

Ive read this thread with interest - largely because I've been planning a cache that I want to locate across the street from a Kodak site...

 

...I might try my Kodak moment cache anyway just to see whether it gets through. I guess I could reword the title.

 

You could save yourself some time and angst by discussing it with your local reviewer. By your own admission, you could just reword the title.

[+Cpl. Klinger]

Ive read this thread with interest - largely because I've been planning a cache that I want to locate across the street from a Kodak site.

 

My plan, which might have a problem now, was to call it something along the lines of a "Kodak Moment Cache" & I was going to include a one time use camera in it with a request for cachers to take photos while there that I was going to post.

 

I was aware of the guideline about commercial caches, and had figured i'd have been okay based on my interpretation of the wording of the guideline. But, based on what I'm reading here, it's being taken very liberally.

 

If reference to something being a best buy wont fly, neither should a company name which has found it's way into common language (which is my argument for using it).

 

I wonder (aloud) about other company names that have found their way into common usage - and whether they'd also be restricted from use as well.

 

And, for what it's worth, all of this just serves to highlight the really big problem with guidelines. Especially when they're being attempted to be applied as policy. They arent constructed for that purpose and fail more often than they succeed - and more often than not, inconsistencies get attributed to "they're just guidelines afterall" - which shouldnt be acceptable. Considering this, wouldnt it just be so much easier to just create firm policy on some of the contentious items that way it's uniform and not grey? Exceptions could be made - just document them and add them to the policy so that other cases can follow.

 

I might try my kodak moment cache anyway just to see whether it gets through. I guess I could reword the title.

 

I would think your cache has a better chance, especially if we're talking something along the lines of a hike into the woods/nature area with a great view, that also happens to be nowhere near anything commercially based, referencing a phrase that has indeed fallen into common vernacular. And additionally, precedence notwithstanding, it's been done plenty of times before you.

 

And I think, that with a thorough explanation of your intentions to your reviewer, you should be fine. And, I like your attitude should things go south:

 

I might try my kodak moment cache anyway just to see whether it gets through. I guess I could reword the title.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Cpl. Klinger

[+Chewy_06]

Ive read this thread with interest - largely because I've been planning a cache that I want to locate across the street from a Kodak site...

 

...I might try my Kodak moment cache anyway just to see whether it gets through. I guess I could reword the title.

 

You could save yourself some time and angst by discussing it with your local reviewer. By your own admission, you could just reword the title.

 

That would be my preference, but my local reviewer's strengths seem to be more related to prompt release of caches & whatever else it is that he's doing behind the scenes that I have no concept of it.

[+Cpl. Klinger]

Ive read this thread with interest - largely because I've been planning a cache that I want to locate across the street from a Kodak site...

 

...I might try my Kodak moment cache anyway just to see whether it gets through. I guess I could reword the title.

 

You could save yourself some time and angst by discussing it with your local reviewer. By your own admission, you could just reword the title.

 

That would be my preference, but my local reviewer's strengths seem to be more related to prompt release of caches & whatever else it is that he's doing behind the scenes that I have no concept of it.

 

I think a reviewer would rather you ask before you submit, as it would most likely make their job a lot simpler.

[+BlueDeuce]

I don't know. Kind of make me wonder if there is more to this story.

 

I'm still not buying this.

 

Was the cache denied before or after it published?

 

If it was denied after being published did the reviewer disable or unpublished the cache.

 

What was the name of the cache originally? Because I doubt it was " 'This deadend is a best buy' but I was denied and then I decided on a better name".

[+uxorious]

If I used a name like "Walmart" or "Pepsi" or something along those lines, in actual TRUE reference to the commercial business

 

I know you don't see it, but your use of "best buy" is an actual true reference to the nearby Best Buy store. If that store wasn't there you wouldn't be using that phrase for this cache now would you? You can argue it all you want, but it is every bit as much a true reference to Best Buy, as a LPC with Wal Mart in the name.

 

As for posting a SBA on all the caches with commercial names, isn't that sort of like the kid who says if you don't play my way I'm taking my ball and going home?

[+NYPaddleCacher]

There are a lot of Jeep caches out there. Someone wanted to use the word Land Rover where others used Jeep. Now the reivewer pops up the commercial flag. What's different? Nothing, Nada, Zilch. It's a legendary 4x4, just like the Jeep.

 

 

I would think that "Jeep" is considered to be one of those trademarks that has long since lost its association with one particular brand, just like Xerox and Kleenex. Just a guess.

 

Maybe so given they have "Jeep" trails on topo maps. Still if I call a cache "Corvair Graveyard" it's not automaticly commercial. It could be a simple as an Old Corvair that was pushed off a cliff and is busy rusing out at the base. The description is accurate, non commerical and doesn't endorse Ralph Nader as our future president.

 

If it was a Corvair there is a 50/50 chance that it was pushed. It might have just rolled over off the cliff.

[+Castle Mischief]

So then what everyone is saying is that I should let it go...

and then go issue SBA's on all those that are using commercial names in their cache name.

 

You can't have it both ways. Sorry thats not the drummer I march too.

 

Either you allow them all, or you don't. (grandfathering aside).

 

So no presdence for placing caches... means NO presedence for issuing SBA's as well.

 

That's a great plan. You'll be THE MOST POPULAR CACHER in your area.

 

This isn't your sandbox. You can play by the rules of the sandbox owner or play in a different sandbox. You can't make your own rules and then try to force them on all the other kids.

[Art Carnage]

PS: It is "dead end" (two words), not "deadend" (one word)

No, it's a single, hyphenated word: dead-end. The real problem is the grammar. It should be "An Electronic Dead-end".

[+Prime Suspect]

I think you can simply this into two parts.

1) Does the cache require interaction wtih a commercial enterprise? Yes commerical.

2) Is it an ad for a business? If Yes, then commercial.

 

Based on the OP's post he doesnt' meet either test.

You're making up your own rules, then deciding if the situation meets them. It doesn't work that way.

 

Here's the latest clarification from Groundspeak: "Business names should not be in geocache titles. In cases where business names must be mentioned (in some events, for example, it may make sense to do so), this can be done in the description."

 

It can't get much plainer that that.

[+Unkle Fester]

A Pony? What the heck am I suppose to do with a pony?

 

tie it to a tree in the woods ..... shove a film can up its ar.............................................

 

No sorry , , , , , bad idea

 

ROTFLMAO

 

Poor pony!

Um, what would the D/T be on that?

 

 

If it was a Corvair there is a 50/50 chance that it was pushed. It might have just rolled over off the cliff.

Autocide?

 

I hardly think they rolled, everyone I know pushed theirs...

 

PS: It is "dead end" (two words), not "deadend" (one word)

No, it's a single, hyphenated word: dead-end. The real problem is the grammar. It should be "An Electronic Dead-end".

More accuratly would be "Customer Service is a Dead End here" But that would be way off topic.

 

(edit spelling)

Edited September 15, 2009 by Unkle Fester

[+Harry Dolphin]

Here's the latest clarification from Groundspeak: "Business names should not be in geocache titles. In cases where business names must be mentioned (in some events, for example, it may make sense to do so), this can be done in the description."

 

It can't get much plainer that that.

 

Dadgum! I was going to put the next Grumpy Dolphin cache high upon a cliff, with a beautiful outlook, and call it Outlook Express!

[+Harry Dolphin]

I would think that "Jeep" is considered to be one of those trademarks that has long since lost its association with one particular brand, just like Xerox and Kleenex. Just a guess.

 

Xerox strenuously defends its trademark. As, I believe, does Kleenex. Likewise, Tupperware is a brand name. Jeep, on the other fin, was an army vehicle during the Second World War, and may not have that trademark protection. Aspirin, for instance, was a trademark of the Bayer Corportion, but was appropriated by the US during the Second World War. It is now a generic word.

[+tozainamboku]

.....

As for the supposed innocence of the name that you seem to be claiming, did you see that the cache is 500 feet from.... guess what?

"This deadend is a best buy."

 

I suspect the vast majority of cachers will tend to notice that fact when they get to the location as well. As for those that do not search for the cache - virtually none would tie it in with the business name.

Really? When he mentioned the proposed cache name, I flashed on a micro cache hidden at or near a Best Buy store. I guessed pill bottle in a bush, but that was only a guess.

Its a dead-end. That should tell you its a guardrail hide.

 

I think you can simply this into two parts.

1) Does the cache require interaction wtih a commercial enterprise? Yes commerical.

2) Is it an ad for a business? If Yes, then commercial.

 

Based on the OP's post he doesnt' meet either test.

You're making up your own rules, then deciding if the situation meets them. It doesn't work that way.

 

Here's the latest clarification from Groundspeak: "Business names should not be in geocache titles. In cases where business names must be mentioned (in some events, for example, it may make sense to do so), this can be done in the description."

 

It can't get much plainer that that.

That is a clarification to the guideline. In the same clarification it states

We believe that updating these guidelines will provide our Volunteer Geocache Reviewers the latitude and discretion to publish geocache listings containing references to surrounding businesses or other relevant information in instances where those references are not principally or substantially intended to generate commercial benefit for the establishment and in instances where it is appropriate for the geocache listing.

 

Our general intention is to prevent geocache listings from becoming billboards for advertisers. It is not our intention to make people "jump through hoops" to avoid mentioning the name of or making reference to a movie, TV show, piece of music, sports team or other item of popular culture which is relevant to the region, state or country where the cache is located.

I'll go out on limb here. Groudspeak probably did not intend the ban all use of business names in cache titles. They wanted the reviewers to make the judgement as to what might perceived as advertising or what might be just a clever title for a cache. The reviewers probably responded by saying "We are not experts on whether or not something is advertising any more than we were experts on whether a location was 'Wow' enough to be a virtual. Give us a rule-of-thumb we can use." The answer was that if the business name appeared in the title of the cache it was assumed to be advertising. In addition mentioning the name of the business in the description should only be done when relevant to finding the cache (for example the location of an event cache). These clarification allowed the mention of business names when they are integral to the cache otherwise names should be avoided. I suspect some reviewers are comfortable with deciding if the mention of a business name is meant to generate business or not and others will stick to the rule-of-thumb in making the decision. That may account for the apparent inconsistency.

[knowschad]

PS: It is "dead end" (two words), not "deadend" (one word)

No, it's a single, hyphenated word: dead-end. The real problem is the grammar. It should be "An Electronic Dead-end".

 

 

From what I can find, the hyphen is highly optional, and rarely used. But my (our) point stands... it is not "deadend" (which sounds like the punchline of a bad Pink Panther joke)

[knowschad]

I would think that "Jeep" is considered to be one of those trademarks that has long since lost its association with one particular brand, just like Xerox and Kleenex. Just a guess.

 

Xerox strenuously defends its trademark. As, I believe, does Kleenex. Likewise, Tupperware is a brand name. Jeep, on the other fin, was an army vehicle during the Second World War, and may not have that trademark protection. Aspirin, for instance, was a trademark of the Bayer Corportion, but was appropriated by the US during the Second World War. It is now a generic word.

 

 

NOW they do. It was an expensive lesson for them, though. I think my point was clear enough, regardless.

[+Jackalgirl]

I use quotes, capitalization, & bolding to empahsize words that can easily be emphasized when your having a verbal conversation but otherwise can't be emphasized very well in the written word unless you do quotes, capitalization or bolding. If you can, then I would request if you have the time to educate me on this matter. I am always open to ways of improving my communication skills.

 

TGC

 

Howdy, TGC --

 

This is completely unrelated to the actual topic of your OP, but I wanted to point out that quotation marks should not be used to indicate emphasis. For example, if I want to emphasize the "not" in "do not step over this line" I should do so using caps, bold, or italics:

 

Do NOT step over this line

Do not step over this line

Do not step over this line

 

Quotation marks, on the other hand, are used for dialogue, citation, or quotation, or to mark a word or phrase as something being talked about (but not actually a part of the sentence itself). When not used for any of these purposes, the quotation marks are used to indicate irony or sarcasm, in the sense of "so-called".

 

The best test of this is to read the sentence aloud. If you find yourself saying the quoted word or phrase in a sarcastic kind of voice (and especially if you wiggle the first two fingers of each hand, as if to make quotation marks), then the quotation marks belong. For example:

 

Oh, sure, I really enjoyed my "vacation", all five minutes of it!

 

If it makes absolutely no sense, and if what you really want to do is stress the word, then do something (anything) other than quotation marks.

 

On to the OP: I see the point of the cache's title: the cache is close to a Best Buy and you want to make a play off of its name in the cache's title. I like the advice about making stuff up (I always like advice about making stuff up), like "Bestest Buy" or "Superlative Buy" or something silly like that. That'd be even more clever, IMO, than simply using "best buy" (and, hopefully, would not fall afoul of your reviewer). : )

[Keystone]

Did anyone click on the links to the caches cited in the OP's appeal to Groundspeak? All of the "violations" were published prior to the current CLEAR guidance under which the reviewers now operate: NO business names in cache names. That is one reason why the "no precedence" language appears in the guidelines. Those caches were published under prior interpretations of the guidelines. I know that I have published caches with "Wal-Mart" in the title... I would NOT do that today.

 

If there are examples from 2009 of caches with business names in the titles, then there is a possible discussion topic for "why did the reviewer publish this?" The outrage ought then be directed at the reviewer who didn't apply the current interpretation correctly, or at the cache owner who changed the name post-publication. Getting angry at the reviewer who is doing their job correctly is not productive.

[cezanne]

 

It's pretty hard to achieve perfection when trying to get any job done with unpaid volunteers under the best of circumstances.

 

I agree with what you wrote above. In my opinion, however the differences in the way the individual reviewers handle the issue of commercial caches are too large. I am not referring to some exceptions which have might slipped through, but to the general line which becomes evident when having a closer look at the published caches of a different reviewers. On the one hand there are examples like the one reported here (where two words in the title which also could be interpreted in a different way led to the rejection) and on the other hand there are a quite a number of recently published caches where not only the cache name points to a sort of business, but where also the cache description deals with the business.

 

I observed that many of the debatable cases have something in common, namely that the intent of the cache hider is not to promote anything. Typically such caches are quick park and grab caches and have been hidden at places where the cache hider has been for a different reason and just quickly dropped a cache there. As empty or one-line cache descriptions are not that popular, some cache hiders apparently think that copying some information about the location from the internet into the cache description, will please the searchers of the cache. Quite often the formulation of the text taken from the internet is not even adapted in a way that fits to the rest of the cache description in terms of style, grammatic references etc.

The argument that is most often brought up to defend caches of this type (by reviewers and non-reviewers) is that the intent of the cache is not to promote anything and that noone profits from the cache. This point of view differs dramatically from the point of view of those who object against caches where the only issue are two words in the cache name.

 

Personally I think that even the modified version of the guidelines is apparently not explicit enough. Of course, the reviewers should have some freedom to make their decision, but not that much freedom that the differences that result are like the differences between night and day or between black and white.

 

Cezanne

[GOF and Bacall]

...and on the other hand there are a quite a number of recently published caches where not only the cache name points to a sort of business, but where also the cache description deals with the business.

 

Cite examples please.

[cezanne]

...and on the other hand there are a quite a number of recently published caches where not only the cache name points to a sort of business, but where also the cache description deals with the business.

 

Cite examples please.

 

Well, I refrained from doing so as the examples I have spontaneously in mind do not posess an English

cache description. Do you wish to see the examples nevertheless?

 

 

Cezanne

[+Castle Mischief]

Well, I refrained from doing so as the examples I have spontaneously in mind do not posess an English

cache description. Do you wish to see the examples nevertheless?

 

Sure. Fire away.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Well, I refrained from doing so as the examples I have spontaneously in mind do not posess an English

cache description. Do you wish to see the examples nevertheless?

 

Sure. Fire away.

 

Is this topic worth starting a new thread?

 

I don't have any specific examples of an inconsistent policy on commercial caches but the general topic of an inconsistency in reviewer policies and how it relates to the published guidelines seems to be somewhat of a common topic.

 

Although I didn't read every post in the recent contentious thread about the "new world record" and a description of the types of hides that were found I had to wonder "how did all of these caches ever get approved". I've seen other threads in which a cache hider was not allowed to place a few caches in a small because it was deemed that there was a saturation issue and that it was producing a power trail. If the caches near DIA are not the very definition of a power trail I'm not sure that I understand how reviewers are interpreting "power trail".

[+Renegade Knight]

This is in reference to a cache that I am trying to get published.

 

GC1YDYT currently named "This deadend is a best buy."...

 

Your cache is good. There has to be a line on commercial and I think you are on the right side of it.

 

If your cache said "The Best buys are at Best Buys" I'd have to wonder but even then if the name is a clever clue and the cache itself is non commerical who cares?

 

 

Clever?!?

Maybe not clever, but is there an issue with a cache being named after the thing dominating the area it's in? Caches are named after parks, land forms, nothing in particular. Why not the busienss who's shadow they are hiding within? All non commercial reasons to name a cache.

 

As for the supposed innocence of the name that you seem to be claiming, did you see that the cache is 500 feet from.... guess what?

Edited September 16, 2009 by Renegade Knight

[cezanne]

Well, I refrained from doing so as the examples I have spontaneously in mind do not posess an English

cache description. Do you wish to see the examples nevertheless?

 

Sure. Fire away.

 

Ok here we go. What follows is just an arbitrary selection (I have encountered a lot more, but do not have the time now to search for them). These examples are all from Austria, but I also encountered substantial differences in the manner how different reviewers from Germany handle the subject (though I have not encountered there extreme examples recently). There is at least one reviewer in Germany who also objects against caches that are names after the favourite football club or the favourite pop band of the cache hider because he thinks that this all subsumes under advertising.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...03-31484e578294

 

(BTW: There is a special story behind this cache. There exists a needs archived log from a cacher from Germany for this cache as he used it to a different reviewing practice in Germany. The only thing that happened was that this German cacher was insulted in some local geocaching forum and was called a member of GECAPO which stands for geocaching police - a term which is quite frequently used when non-reviewers doubt that a certain cache follows the guidelines.)

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...67-6be602016826

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...18-c82d1c5b8c69

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...58-1cd05751e579

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...0b-99304ec5a3f7

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...36-41ff28c2ffc3

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...87-2b7378dedf69

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...a2-4777102d8c2e

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...f9-cbf8f97b00d3

 

 

I am pretty sure that these examples are not just caches that slipped through.

 

There is one issue that seems relevant to me in this discussion. While I personally do not appreciate caches of the type I have listed above (for different reasons than discussed in this thread), it can be clearly observed that cachers prefer to know in advance where a cache leads them and that many of them appreciate some background information on the location. I have encountered quite a number of critical logs for caches hidden e.g. in the area of a shopping mall where it is criticized that no information is provided on the mall. The typical reaction of hiders of such caches (at least in the caching regions I am familiar with) is to copy and paste some information on the location from the internet.

 

Cezanne

Edited September 16, 2009 by cezanne

[+Renegade Knight]

...All of the "violations" were published prior to the current CLEAR guidance under which the reviewers now operate: NO business names in cache names....

 

That's about as clear as it can get. It's still muddy in a lot of areas. Commercial should be about intent which is hard enough.

 

Example of Muddy.

 

A cache called Gorilla Sew & Vac. The name is the clue, the location is on a gorilla in front of Jones Sew and Vac. Sew & Vac is clearly in the name. The point of the name is to leave no doubt where to look so as to keep folks out of the flower beds (which are ugly at this location becasue there are now flowers, just the bed).

 

Another example of muddy.

 

Coin AdVenture. Coin Venturs is a registered company name. Would the reviewer know?

 

Another example of muddy.

 

Albertsons cache. It's named after the park it's in. The park is named after the Grocery store chain's wife Katherine Albertson. Albertson's of course is named after the founder.

 

I have no idea if any of these are real. All of them could be as they are based on real locations and names.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Renegade Knight

[+Renegade Knight]

...Here's the latest clarification from Groundspeak: "Business names should not be in geocache titles. In cases where business names must be mentioned (in some events, for example, it may make sense to do so), this can be done in the description."

 

It can't get much plainer that that.

 

Nice catch: I wasn't aware of the shift in rules stating no busines names in caches. That in itself is a shift away from the anti commercial rule because commercial is an intent and not a name. See my post above for how clear the rule really is. It's seemingly clear but has a lot of nuances.