Taking Responsibility

[PamD]

I have put out 23 caches for people tpo enjoy over the past 2 years. And I have enjoyed reading about the pleasure they bring. However, I just received news that the contents of yet 2 more caches are soaked so I am temporarily shutting them down and re-thinking whether I want to continue to provide caches at all.

 

I have had way too many caches ruined and needing maintainence because the lids on the Rubbermaids weren't replaced. We pride ourselves on taking care of the environment, right? We also need to take responsibility for taking care of the caches we find. Closing them securely. And...putting them back where we found them.

 

As usual, it's just a few people who don't take the time to act responsibily. But caches don't magically appear at the base of a leprechaun tree. Caches take time, work and money to provide entertainment for you all. So please...a little respect, okay?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Interesting... cachers are at fault because you don't use easily closable waterproof containers (see Ammo Can)? Speaking of taking responsibility...

[knowschad]

Yeah, I'm sure you are feeling very disappointed. Cache maintenance is a pain, for sure!! However, AR has got a point. If Tupperware Rubbermaid isn't working, perhaps you need to look at other types of containers.

Edited September 3, 2009 by knowschad

[+StarBrand]

Most rubbermaid containers I have tested were not very waterproof. I put kleenex in them, set them on thier sides in a sink and turned on a slow but steady drip. The kleenex was either damp or soaked after just an hour or two. Others I dunked under water with Klennex inside and just watched as bubbles of air came out and water went in. Lock-n-Locks and the newer Lock-its pass the test.

 

Can't complain about containers that are known to leak. Don't be so quick to blame cachers.

[+briansnat]

Sometimes they get wet because people don't close the lid properly. More often it's because of a poorly chosen container. You don't mention the type of Rubbermaid container you are using, but most Rubbermaids make lousy containers.

 

I have over 200 active caches and wet contents are very rarely an issue. In the few instances where my caches get wet it's usually the fault of the container, not the geocachers. When I find one type that gets wet consistently (e.g. decon boxes) I quickly remove them and replace them with better containers.

Edited September 3, 2009 by briansnat

[+Wogus!]

Place the logbook, pen, swag, etc. in a zip-lock type sandwich bag and then place everything in your Rubbermaid container.

[+paleolith]

Sorry you're feeling disappointed. Like the others here, I think you could alleviate a lot of that disappointment by rethinking your containers. While muggle will sometimes leave a cache open, it's pretty rare for a cacher to do so.

 

Any lid that just snaps on isn't going to keep moisture out. It's amazing how much water can get into a container over a period of weeks just by entering a tiny bit at a time as vapor and then condensing. These containers were made for the refrigerator, not the outdoors.

 

Also, anything polyethylene (PE) is going to degrade in the sunlight. You say you've been placing the caches for a couple of years. That's about the time at which most household polyethylene starts cracking. At five years it's breaking into little pieces. These containers were made for the refrigerator, not the outdoors. Where's that echo?

 

Ammo cans have a wire bail which keeps the seal under pressure. Lock-n-locks have the clips which serve the same purpose -- not as strong, but strong enough. And lock-n-locks are apparently made of polypropylene (PP), which resists sunlight much better than PE, at least the higher quality PP.

 

I am interested in briansnat's mention of wet decons, as I haven't encountered that yet. Was this from leakage with the top on, or a result of the difficulty of replacing the top correctly?

 

Edward

[jholly]

Yes, the only two containers I consider using is a ammo box or a Lock'n'Lock. Everything else I have found is generally wet by the time March rolls around. I paint the L'n'L's with camo paint the help the UV. (UV in the NorthWet?) Well I do have three guard rail hides but they are somewhat protected from the constant drip StarBrand mentioned.

 

Oh yes, the plastic bag for the log is not all that good. They rip, they tear, in general they wear out, or they don't get sealed all the way and the log gets damp anyway.

 

Jim

Edited September 3, 2009 by jholly

[+Isonzo Karst]

briansnat's mention of wet decons, as I haven't encountered that yet. Was this from leakage with the top on, or a result of the difficulty of replacing the top correctly?

 

Both. A few of the first decons I bought are still in service as they continuing to be dry. They open and close rather easily, while the second batch I bought are tough to open and close, but not often dry. The hard to open decons suffer from lack of closure (back corners not clicked down tight) but even when closed properly aren't dry.

 

This in Florida, the Humidity State, a really tough environment for cache containers. I've largely abandoned decons, plastics of all kinds. Palmetto bugs (cockroaches) chew the edges of all plastic containers here and ruin the seals. They eat everything, but I'm guessing it's salt and oils from handling that attract them. Lock and locks do a bit better, as the recessed sealing ring is hard for them to get their jaws on. They ruin matchsafe and bison O rings by eating them.

[+JackQuest]

Hate to jump on the band wagon, but container, container, container, because people will be people. I have been ammo can only, for mine. The lock n locks have peeked an interest so I just tried two but on stage caches not the final. The first hint of failure and they will be history. All items are in ziploc bags as a backup. The few disappointing caches I have found have all been plastic.

[the3gmen]

Perhaps there should be a sticky thread that lists containers (with pictures) that work well as well as failures. That way the newer cachers will at least know where to start when putting caches together.

[GOF and Bacall]

Hate to jump on the band wagon, but container, container, container, because people will be people. I have been ammo can only, for mine. The lock n locks have peeked an interest so I just tried two but on stage caches not the final. The first hint of failure and they will be history. All items are in ziploc bags as a backup. The few disappointing caches I have found have all been plastic.

 

When the hide allows I prefer an ammo can. Lock-N-Locks are great for their diversity of size. While very durable they are not an ammo can.

 

It seems to me, from what I have seen while caching, that the key to a decent container is a compressed seal. L-N-Ls, ammo cans, bison tubes, and match safes are all considered at least decent containers. They all use a compressed seal. Not so with Tupperware, Gladware, decon containers and many others.

 

Second thing I see as needed for a good container is a way to maintain the compression on the seal. Ammo cans do very well at this. Bison tubes do also with their threaded closures. Repeated opening and closing of the threaded containers can tear the o-rings causing them to leak. L-N-Ls do well as long as the tabs remain it tact. The genuine L-n-Ls seem to hold up well but the knock offs tend to fail in short order. I've also never had good luck with the round L-N-Ls. The smaller, pin shaped tabs tend to be more fragile than the blade shaped tabs on the rectangular ones.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Lock-N-Locks and Ammo cans are the only way to go.

[+Rainbow Spirit]

Here in Australia we have a Lock N Lock knockoff called Sistema, they are made in New Zealand.

I think they originated in Italy.....

Anyway, I have given up on the resealable plastic bag and use a small Sistema inside a larger Sistema for the log. I rarely get wet logs that way. Plastic bags are hard to reseal, and soon get tears in them.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Rainbow Spirit

[PamD]

This has been very interesting andf I have learned a lot. You are all right about ammo cans but the only ones I have seen are way too large for the places I can hide. I never thought Rubbermaid would be a problem because...yeah...in the freezer....I've never had a problem with freezer burn. Or a problem with leakage when I'm out on a boat though that is a pretty short term experience. I did have a problem wit one type of larger Rubbermaid that was difficult to close and I replaced that one.

 

I'll look into getting another type of container.

 

I appreciate the feedback.

[+L0ne.R]

Part of the problem is the hiding location. Is it often wet? I have a cache (under our team account) in a spot on the ground nestled in and among a few logs. The area can get wet from time to time -- the rotting logs hold moisture. We used a rubbermaid container for years but often when I checked on the container I had to wipe moisture out. Seemed droplets built up inside -- not sure why exactly, the lid seemed tight. Eventually I switched to a lock n lock (they were not available when I first planted that cache) and haven't had that problem since.

 

Nothing is full proof though, not even lock n locks. If a baggie gets caught in the seal, water can seep in. I visited another of my boxes, in the early Spring of this year, only to find that a little bit of baggie was sticking out, caught between the lid and the box. When I opened it up the box was filled with water and ice. The baggies were filled with water and ice. It's just the nature of our outdoor game. Sometimes nature encroaches. Sometimes baggies get caught in the seal. Sometimes the lid seems on but it's not quite sealed.

 

One other thing. Buy the real lock n locks. The dollar store knock offs have flimsy tabs and they break off easily. Lock n locks and ammo cans are the best, but nothing is perfect.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Lone R

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

All provided good advice. Maintenance is the best solution. Ya just can't beat Mother Nature.

[knowschad]

Lock-N-Locks and Ammo cans are the only way to go.

 

 

You forgot film cannisters!

[Mushtang]

This has been very interesting andf I have learned a lot. You are all right about ammo cans but the only ones I have seen are way too large for the places I can hide. I never thought Rubbermaid would be a problem because...yeah...in the freezer....I've never had a problem with freezer burn. Or a problem with leakage when I'm out on a boat though that is a pretty short term experience. I did have a problem wit one type of larger Rubbermaid that was difficult to close and I replaced that one.

 

I'll look into getting another type of container.

 

I appreciate the feedback.

Bravo to you for taking the advice in the way it was intended (as friendly helpful advice) instead of becoming offended that someone would actually disagree with you. Good job on being able to look at the facts, listen to experienced cachers, and see that you can go forward with a better way of doing things.

 

I'm impressed!

[+briansnat]

This has been very interesting andf I have learned a lot. You are all right about ammo cans but the only ones I have seen are way too large for the places I can hide. I never thought Rubbermaid would be a problem because...yeah...in the freezer....I've never had a problem with freezer burn. Or a problem with leakage when I'm out on a boat though that is a pretty short term experience. I did have a problem wit one type of larger Rubbermaid that was difficult to close and I replaced that one.

 

I'll look into getting another type of container.

 

I appreciate the feedback.

 

The only Rubbermaid I've had luck with are the ones with the blue rubber rim. They last about a year before the rim stops keeping out water.

 

Lock n Locks are good, but seem to have disappeared from store shelves. You can still buy them online.

A 20 piece set gives you 9 containers of varying sizes and is 30 bucks at Amazon.com.

[+off-camber]

I found these water tight containers at Walmart that were pretty inexpensive...along the lines of a cheap pelican case. I tried it out on one cache with great success!. It has survived a harsh norther New England winter without a problem. They come in two sizes....not as big as an ammo can but probably on par with a lock n lock.

 

I can't bring my self to use ammo cans.....I prefer to store my ammo in them...

[+bittsen]

I found these water tight containers at Walmart that were pretty inexpensive...along the lines of a cheap pelican case. I tried it out on one cache with great success!. It has survived a harsh norther New England winter without a problem. They come in two sizes....not as big as an ammo can but probably on par with a lock n lock.

 

I can't bring my self to use ammo cans.....I prefer to store my ammo in them...

 

And about half the price.

Just looked at them at Walmart a week ago and am impressed. For $7 you can get a "small" one that has about 12oz capacity inside (IRC) and the large one is still only $11 or so.

The comparable containers at REI were $13 and $24.

[+Renegade Knight]

...When I find one type that gets wet consistently (e.g. decon boxes) I quickly remove them and replace them with better containers.

 

Speaking of Decon's. I finally found my first that was acutally wet. The vast majority here are dry. Perhaps becasue they are more common? I'm not sure what changes from your side of the country to mine.

[+dakboy]

Place the logbook, pen, swag, etc. in a zip-lock type sandwich bag and then place everything in your Rubbermaid container.

Sandwich bags end up ripped pretty easily.

 

Freezer bags last a little longer, but will eventually be compromised.

[knowschad]

Place the logbook, pen, swag, etc. in a zip-lock type sandwich bag and then place everything in your Rubbermaid container.

 

Well, maybe a pen, but not a pencil!! Pencils do not belong in a ziplock! They will poke holes in them from the get-go.

[+Wogus!]

Freezer bags last a little longer, but will eventually be compromised.

I guess I kind of operate on the assumption that everything, eventually, will be compromised; it's only a matter of time. That's why when I place a cache I do it somewhere close enough and easily enough accessed that I don't mind putting in the required maintenance. Personally, I have a couple ammo cans I cycle through but even with ammo can-useage I put everything into a zip-lock first.

 

Lately though I've been eyeballing this bad boy:

I'm thinking with a couple coats of Krylon, or some camo tape, this would be a worthy container. It's the Thermos E5 (16-oz. food jar) for those who are curious. It measures about 6.5" x 4.5" x 4.5 and looks like it's built to take it.

 

Well, maybe a pen, but not a pencil!! Pencils do not belong in a ziplock! They will poke holes in them from the get-go.

So noted. I've been known to put pen-caps on pencils to prevent this very thing however. Edited September 3, 2009 by Jupiter_Jack

[+bittsen]

Lately though I've been eyeballing this bad boy:

I'm thinking with a couple coats of Krylon, or some camo tape, this would be a worthy container. It's the Thermos E5 (16-oz. food jar) for those who are curious. It measures about 6.5" x 4.5" x 4.5 and looks like it's built to take it.

 

I've been looking at thermos type containers too. A few dents in the side of them also make them look less desirable.

A thermos is less than an otterbox and just as water resistant.

[+L0ne.R]

Lately though I've been eyeballing this bad boy:

I'm thinking with a couple coats of Krylon, or some camo tape, this would be a worthy container. It's the Thermos E5 (16-oz. food jar) for those who are curious. It measures about 6.5" x 4.5" x 4.5 and looks like it's built to take it.

 

I've been looking at thermos type containers too. A few dents in the side of them also make them look less desirable.

A thermos is less than an otterbox and just as water resistant.

 

The thermos caches that I've found have held up very well. Pricey though. Does anyone know if thrift stores are good places to look for used food thermoses?

Edited September 3, 2009 by Lone R

[+Renegade Knight]

This has been very interesting andf I have learned a lot. You are all right about ammo cans but the only ones I have seen are way too large for the places I can hide. I never thought Rubbermaid would be a problem because...yeah...in the freezer....I've never had a problem with freezer burn. Or a problem with leakage when I'm out on a boat though that is a pretty short term experience. I did have a problem wit one type of larger Rubbermaid that was difficult to close and I replaced that one.

 

I'll look into getting another type of container.

 

I appreciate the feedback.

 

Beautiful ending. There are some great containers out there. Great and cheap isn't as easy to find. That's why ammo cans shine. They just don't fit everwhere.

 

Great containers aside. even rubbermaid and gladware can be used in the right locations.

[jholly]

Lock n Locks are good, but seem to have disappeared from store shelves. You can still buy them online.

A 20 piece set gives you 9 containers of varying sizes and is 30 bucks at Amazon.com.

 

If your going on line, then go here.

 

Jim

[+zircon101]

Hi PamD;

 

I also believe that tupperware containers are not raccoon/creature proof. On two separate occasions, eyekwilt2 and I have encountered cache contents spilled on the forest floor next to hollow stump hiding sites. The logs from these caches were damp; we returned them to the original containers and notified the cache owners. I don't know if you can purchase raccoon repellent.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Glad imitation Lock and Locks seem to have ousted Lock and Lock in my local supermarkets. The Glad ones look like the flaps would break off easily. I got a set of 5 Silvermark rectangular Storage Set at TJ Maxx for $10. I'm going to have to give them a try.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Harry Dolphin

[+Ambrosia]

...When I find one type that gets wet consistently (e.g. decon boxes) I quickly remove them and replace them with better containers.

 

Speaking of Decon's. I finally found my first that was acutally wet. The vast majority here are dry. Perhaps becasue they are more common? I'm not sure what changes from your side of the country to mine.

 

That's interesting, because I don't think I've found a single intact Decon container. I'm pretty sure that every one I've found has been broken. I decided very early on not to ever use one.

[GOF and Bacall]

even rubbermaid and gladware can be used in the right locations.

 

Where? Inside an ammo can?

 

Relax! It's just a joke.

[+Isonzo Karst]

Does anyone know if thrift stores are good places to look for used food thermoses?

 

yes - I have a couple in services as caches in salt water environments, and have found a couple, likewise on islands in salt water .

 

Generally they're $1 - $1.50 at thrift stores. Often you need to hit the lid with silicone to close off the pour spout, and I generally hit them with a spray paint for plastic, flat black.

 

They're not as good as an ammo can, it's just a threaded seal, subject to getting crud in the thread, but they don't rust out like ammo cans will on the salt water.

[+ecanderson]

Interesting... cachers are at fault because you don't use easily closable waterproof containers (see Ammo Can)? Speaking of taking responsibility...

Be fair, AR ... if you have any experience placing dcon containers, you know that they're as water tight as anything can be, but out here, we do run into problems with finders that don't secure the lids properly after the find, sometimes allowing in a good bit of water. So yes, cachers can be at fault for not securing easily closable waterproof containers that AREN'T ammo cans.

[+ecanderson]

When I find one type that gets wet consistently (e.g. decon boxes) I quickly remove them and replace them with better containers.

Should have read this one before my reply to AR. Yeah, we see the same problem here. Nothing wrong with the container - will keep everything nice and dry if actually closed. Some finders don't seem to have the smarts or interest required to snap on the lid after the find. So while we've still got them out here, they've fallen into disfavor. Too bad - camo'd, they make great containers.

[+Wogus!]

I know this isn't a "container thread" but I just happened to be in Bed, Bath and Beyond yesterday and found they are now carrying Snap 'n' Lock containers (not to be confused with Snap 'n' Seal). Very much like the beloved Lock & Lock containers, Snap 'n' Locks have a rubber gasket in the lid to seal it and four locking tabs. The containers are made of pretty heavy polypropylene and are guaranteed to be air-tight/leak-proof. The tabs seem really well made to me, and the containers themselves are relatively cheap - $3 or $4 for a small (measures about 4" x 6" x 3") up to $5 or $6 for a medium sized. I don't think even the largest container was more than $8 (large enough to hold a box of breakfast cereal).

 

So... There ya go!

[+ecanderson]

As for the availability of L&Ls ... one of the easiest places to score these is at Bed, Bath & Beyond. They sell a 4 pack for $9.

 

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.as...mp;SKU=16183784

 

and a whole assortment of 20 of them for only $30.

 

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.as...mp;sku=16183628

[+Sol seaker]

This has been very interesting andf I have learned a lot. You are all right about ammo cans but the only ones I have seen are way too large for the places I can hide. I never thought Rubbermaid would be a problem because...yeah...in the freezer....I've never had a problem with freezer burn. Or a problem with leakage when I'm out on a boat though that is a pretty short term experience. I did have a problem wit one type of larger Rubbermaid that was difficult to close and I replaced that one.

 

I'll look into getting another type of container.

 

I appreciate the feedback.

 

It's amazing the size selection Lock and Locks come in.

I just found them in a great store, called H Mart. It' an asian grocery store. I have no idea how big the chain is, but if you've got one near you , check it out!!!

It's got a HUGE selection at CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP prices.

Brand name Lock and locks in every size available. I should take a picture the next time I go in there.

 

and by the way, if the space you're hiding in is too small for the smallest lock and lock, you could try a matchsafe, or better yet, find a bigger hiding place!!

[+Sol seaker]

 

I've been looking at thermos type containers too. A few dents in the side of them also make them look less desirable.

A thermos is less than an otterbox and just as water resistant.

 

The thermos caches that I've found have held up very well. Pricey though. Does anyone know if thrift stores are good places to look for used food thermoses?

 

I've found some GREAT thermos's in thrift stores!!

 

I even found one that looks like a huge crayon. I was trying to figure out a clever spot to put that one!!!

[+paleolith]

Seemed droplets built up inside -- not sure why exactly, the lid seemed tight.

Not too mysterious actually. This happens when even the slightest amount of air leakage is possible, which is true of any container without a compressed seal. Air pressure rises, a tiny amount of air leaks in, temperature drops at night, moisture in the leaked air condenses on the coolest surfaces (which is why you see droplets in the early stages rather than pools), air pressure drops and some air leaks out but doesn't carry all the moisture it did on entering due to the condensation. One time, you don't notice. After a hundred times, you have a wet cache. It's all because the moisture transport in and out isn't symmetrical.

 

I've found a few caches where the container is a cylinder, aluminum I think, about an inch tall and about 3" in diameter. The top is a "twist and click" which fits over the base and compresses a rubber seal when twisted. What are these, where do you get them, and (duh) how well do they work in the long run? (I've seen them in SoCal, where sunlight is a much larger issue than moisture.) Unfortunately I haven't thought to take a photograph of the ones I've found.

 

Edward

[+SHENNY-TLC]

Maybe 23 caches are just too many for a person to handle. I think you only place what you can or wnat to maintain. WEe have 13 out ther and a couple ideas for a few more but I LOVE going out and doing cache maint. Its part of the sport (hobby-recreation etc). I feel caches are like sunroof in cars , when installed there "gaurenteed" to leak. Were just getting ready to go out and do our Fall maintnance.

[YotaCacher]

I found these water tight containers at Walmart that were pretty inexpensive...along the lines of a cheap pelican case. I tried it out on one cache with great success!. It has survived a harsh norther New England winter without a problem. They come in two sizes....not as big as an ammo can but probably on par with a lock n lock.

 

I can't bring my self to use ammo cans.....I prefer to store my ammo in them...

 

HI, found one of those containers at Wally World for under 8$. Decided to use it as a submersable w/o reading lable. Sunk it over 20ft in the lake. Checked it after 30 days and a couple of finds. Everything is still dry. Will see if it makes a year.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

Interesting... cachers are at fault because you don't use easily closable waterproof containers (see Ammo Can)? Speaking of taking responsibility...

 

It's not always the container. I have a ammo can hide that was recently found sitting in the open with the lid open. I've found enough caches where it looks like the previous finder closed the lid (or not), dropped the cache where they were standing and walked away...no effort at all to rehide it. These weren't film cannisters or bison tubes where maybe it fell or a critter moved it. Choosing a good container is paramount, but there is plenty of slack in the responsibility department as well.

 

Bruce

[+hudsonfam]

I have found that rubbermaid and/or similar containers warp when exposed to water and changes in temperature. That's why after using them a few times from the dishwasher to the fridge to the microwave, eventually the covers just won't seal anymore. The same thing happens outside in the elements. Cachers may be putting the lid on securely and the warped shape of the lid can slowly pry a corner loose after they've already walked away.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

Lock n Locks are good, but seem to have disappeared from store shelves. You can still buy them online.

A 20 piece set gives you 9 containers of varying sizes and is 30 bucks at Amazon.com.

 

JCPenney has some sets (this is one of them) for what looks to be reasonable prices (about $2 a container).

[+Unkle Fester]

Interesting... cachers are at fault because you don't use easily closable waterproof containers (see Ammo Can)? Speaking of taking responsibility...

Be fair, AR ... if you have any experience placing dcon containers, you know that they're as water tight as anything can be, but out here, we do run into problems with finders that don't secure the lids properly after the find, sometimes allowing in a good bit of water. So yes, cachers can be at fault for not securing easily closable waterproof containers that AREN'T ammo cans.

I've seen open ammo cans...

 

Interesting... cachers are at fault because you don't use easily closable waterproof containers (see Ammo Can)? Speaking of taking responsibility...

 

It's not always the container. I have a ammo can hide that was recently found sitting in the open with the lid open. I've found enough caches where it looks like the previous finder closed the lid (or not), dropped the cache where they were standing and walked away...no effort at all to rehide it. These weren't film cannisters or bison tubes where maybe it fell or a critter moved it. Choosing a good container is paramount, but there is plenty of slack in the responsibility department as well.

 

Bruce

Case in point.

 

Believe it or not, some cachers don't care about anything but a smiley...

[+Growf]

For micros, has anybody had any luck with the containers which store diabetic test strips?

 

How about paint pots? Not the cheapies that you get with paint-by-number sets, but a little bigger, like what you see here (3/4 oz. and screw-on lids):

Edited September 18, 2009 by Growf

[+bittsen]

For micros, has anybody had any luck with the containers which store diabetic test strips?

 

How about paint pots? Not the cheapies that you get with paint-by-number sets, but a little bigger, like what you see here (3/4 oz. and screw-on lids):

 

Any halfway decent container with a screw on lid can be made wonderful by simply adding a rubberisez cork gasket.

Test strip containers and paint containers would work just fine in many circumstances. I wouldn't use them of underwater but for a regular hide, give it a shot.