Is this an interesting, 4.0-difficulty cache idea?

[+chrisrayn]

I'll show my plan in pictures:

 

+ + + = evil?

 

See, I want to have an ammo can as the size for the cache, and have around the top half of it be usable for travel bugs, trade items, etc. However, I want to have the bottom half be FILLED with nuts and bolts spraypainted so they are both black and silver, with 1 nano cache mixed in.

 

You can trade all you want with the items, take travel bugs on new missions, but you have to sign the nano log before you can truly log a find. Does this sound like a neat way to add difficulty to a cache, or something that would be just plain evil?

 

I mean, if you see the can and it's obvious you've found it, and you KNOW it's a 4.0 difficulty, you're going to be suspicious, right? There's no way you're going to think you just got lucky on the cache. I want people to open up the ammo container and say "OOOOOOh 4.0 makes sense now. Well suck me sideways."

 

Or would that be too cruel?

[+fegan]

Better than a nano in with all those nuts and bolts...how about a fake bolt, like I've seen on sign posts, mixed in there? It would be a slightly larger log too...meaning you wouldn't have to replace it nearly as often.

 

Either way, I wouldn't consider it a 4 hide...maybe a 2 or 2.5 at most.

[+Stunod]

"Annoying" would be the word I'd use.

[+StarBrand]

No worse than a 5 gallon jub filled with fim cans and only 1 has the log.

 

Hard to say how I'd rate it without the full picture of the hide style.

[+uxorious]

"Annoying" would be the word I'd use.

 

My thought on this also.

[+bittsen]

"Annoying" would be the word I'd use.

 

Yup, good word.

 

Someone would just add a notebook though at some point.

[+chrisrayn]

"Annoying" would be the word I'd use.

 

Yup, good word.

 

Someone would just add a notebook though at some point.

 

AH...and THAT's the true problem.

 

Annoying I was going for...but I don't want somebody throwing a book in there because they're lazy.

 

I'll probably just scrap the idea then.

[+Harry Dolphin]

"Annoying" would be the word I'd use.

 

Yup, good word.

 

Someone would just add a notebook though at some point.

 

AH...and THAT's the true problem.

 

Annoying I was going for...but I don't want somebody throwing a book in there because they're lazy.

 

I'll probably just scrap the idea then.

 

Please do! There is nothing nice about that cache idea.

[+niraD]

Someone would just add a notebook though at some point.

Yeah, that was my first thought. I've seen throw-down caches placed within inches of the real cache, and I've seen logs added to decoy containers that were clearly labeled "this is not the cache, keep looking". I would expect a "replacement" log to appear in this one pretty quickly.

[sdarken]

I dont think there's anything wrong with your idea. At least finding the ammo can itself will be easy. After that it's only going to take a little effort to find a nano amongst the other stuff in the can.

 

I'd rather do you cache any day than go looking for a fake rock in field of rocks or a small container hidden in ivy or a nano attached to a bridge. At least with your idea, the search area is limited to something I can hold in my lap. Put the cache somewhere with a nice view and no muggles and I'd happily take the time to find the log while I enjoy the view.

 

I'd be surprised if you could make that a difficulty 4 though.

Edited August 21, 2009 by sdarken

[+J-Way]

I've seen similar ideas. To better counteract the throw-down log book, make it a Mystery/Unknown cache. That will eliminate most of the cachers who would shortcut the find. Even better, place it a few hundred feet away from the listed coordinates, with very clear instruction in the description on how to find it... right after stating the fact that the bison tube is the cache, not the ammo can. That way anyone who does find it can't claim that they never read the description.

[+bittsen]

I've seen similar ideas. To better counteract the throw-down log book, make it a Mystery/Unknown cache. That will eliminate most of the cachers who would shortcut the find. Even better, place it a few hundred feet away from the listed coordinates, with very clear instruction in the description on how to find it... right after stating the fact that the bison tube is the cache, not the ammo can. That way anyone who does find it can't claim that they never read the description.

 

I still don't get why some people want to make geocaching "difficult"....

[+Knight2000]

Why not take it to the next level?

 

Attach neodymium magnets all over the inside of the ammo can along with other metal pieces inside that are also attached to the can.

 

Install a cheap window/door alarm on the lid and top of the can. When the contacts are separated (the can is opened) a horrible scream comes out. Then the cacher couldn't dump out the crap inside to look through it.

[knowschad]

Yup. A very annoying waste of time.

 

While I appreciate the creative thinking, I think your drawing board is missing you.

[+mrbort]

Someone would just add a notebook though at some point.

 

This (and probably a series of annoyed logs) would certainly be your constant problem. I agree with another poster though who said that I'd happily sort through a bunch of stuff if I could hold it in my lap; as long as I can firmly define the bounds of what I'm looking for, I would be absolutely happy to indulge my semi-anal side and paw through it. It's bordering on that needle in a haystack hate that I have but it's a very well defined haystack. I'll go against the general grain and say that while it might annoy me, a once in a once cache like this might be entertaining... Drop the amount of stuff you have to look through and it would probably raise the enjoyment level Good luck with the cache if you do it and it's cool to see people trying to think of creative caching solutions

[knowschad]

Please ignore mrbort.

 

 

 

[+mrbort]

Please ignore mrbort.

 

 

 

 

lol... Ask Chad to tell his good geocaching buddy that if he doesn't like it, he shouldn't search for it

 

Edited to add: My feelings about whether I would want to find this cache STRONGLY depends on the location. It it's a peaceful place, low population of annoying insects, perhaps a scenic view but mostly private, my tolerance would go way up. Lower it if you take away several of the things I mentioned, especially the last.

Edited August 21, 2009 by mrbort

[+c@cache]

I agree with mrbort on this one. Put it an interesting spot with a nice view and few muggles, and I will happily search through it. I probably would spend the same amount of time checking out the view and exploring that I would searching for the log anyway, so it wouldn't be a big loss of time for me.

[knowschad]

Please ignore mrbort.

 

 

 

 

lol... Ask Chad to tell his good geocaching buddy that if he doesn't like it, he shouldn't search for it

 

Edited to add: My feelings about whether I would want to find this cache STRONGLY depends on the location. It it's a peaceful place, low population of annoying insects, perhaps a scenic view but mostly private, my tolerance would go way up. Lower it if you take away several of the things I mentioned, especially the last.

 

Oh, that's right. I forgot that you live somewhere beautiful and serene where three caches a day makes you a power cacher. I might not mind it in those conditions, either. In fact, I might just prefer it to a sign-and-run cache.

[+mrbort]

Please ignore mrbort.

 

 

 

 

lol... Ask Chad to tell his good geocaching buddy that if he doesn't like it, he shouldn't search for it

 

Edited to add: My feelings about whether I would want to find this cache STRONGLY depends on the location. It it's a peaceful place, low population of annoying insects, perhaps a scenic view but mostly private, my tolerance would go way up. Lower it if you take away several of the things I mentioned, especially the last.

 

Oh, that's right. I forgot that you live somewhere beautiful and serene where three caches a day makes you a power cacher. I might not mind it in those conditions, either. In fact, I might just prefer it to a sign-and-run cache.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing; there are VERY few cache and dash ones around here and a nice little hike to a serene spot is sorta the norm. In the vast majority of the caches I've found around here, a nice little sit on a rock looking around at a beautiful view (lots, thanks to the canyons) would make this a winner for me. I'd much rather have this than a rock pile where I have no idea where the edges are, how good the coordinates are or really what type of container I'm looking for.

 

However in other areas not blessed with as much open space, this might be not as easily placed in a spot where one wouldn't mind sitting for a spell sorting through some bolts

 

Edited to fix the horribly messed up quotes

Edited August 21, 2009 by mrbort

[+chrisrayn]

Hmm...I'm really kind of conflicted.

 

My difficulty WAS based on the needle in a haystack method...and my idea was that someone could just sit and bide their time and work through what's there.

 

See...I see people putting 4 difficulties on things I spot immediately. That's not difficult, it's just overconfidence. If I end up at a fence post, I lift up the top of the fence. The only thing that ever DOES give me difficulty is when there are almost infinite possibilities...needles in haystacks.

 

Could someone maybe show me a 5 difficulty they've found that really IS a 5 difficulty and NOT because of a puzzle you had to solve beforehand or the "needle in the haystack" method?

 

Maybe even an on-site riddle would work.

[+mfamilee]

Hmm...I'm really kind of conflicted.

 

My difficulty WAS based on the needle in a haystack method...and my idea was that someone could just sit and bide their time and work through what's there.

Love the idea! All you have to decide is if you like it enough to put it out, or if you are more concerned about other's liking it. We all know you can't satisfy everyone. I'm sure there will be many who will be entertained by it. Decisions, decisions...

[knowschad]

No need to be conflicted. Don't try to please everyone. Just make it clear to everyone what kind of hide it is. You could even title it "Needle in a Haystack".

[+mrbort]

No need to be conflicted. Don't try to please everyone. Just make it clear to everyone what kind of hide it is. You could even title it "Needle in a Haystack".

 

How about "Needle in a Hay Bale" ... might suggest that it's not a random pile of rocks

[+smokeeater908]

I am new to this board and have only been caching since June BUT, I have already learned that I had rather do a difficult cache than pull up to my local Wal-Mart and sit next to a lamp post and sign the cache log without even getting out of my car. There was not many caches in my area and what was here was not very difficult and since I have been caching I have placed some very ingenious caches out and although there seems to be alot of DNF's people in my surrounding area really seem to enojy the hunts becuase they can't wait to see what is coming next. I recently did a cache that was an Ammo can and it was in a 12' high pile of stumps abound 75 yards long and you thought you were hunting a nano which in fact you were but it was in the inside of the lid of the ammo can. There was also alot of red decoys stuck in the pile to throw you off. This cache was absolutely fun. I have placed a dead bolt on a metal door, sewn leaves in a bush, a nano rolled in crushed churt in a churt pit with an ammo box decoy that when opened stated now you know I can hide an ammo can let's find the real cache, I also like creating a unique puzzle cache. There is a couple in my area that will not even hunt a cache if it is rated less than a 3 on the difficulty. So I think that is a great cache idea, I would laugh my rear end off when I opened it and saw all those nuts and bolts and so would most people in my area. Anyway I will get off my soapbox now, I would say rate the difficulty high so that those who like lamp posts will not bother with it anyway.

[+Taoiseach]

I still don't get why some people want to make geocaching "difficult"....

 

Some of us like a challenge! I know I'm always up for a good Train micro!

 

Actually, if somebody has to hide a traditional, I'd just as soon they make me work for it.

 

I like your original idea, however unless the nano isn't magnetic, it would be very easy to find - I found something similar once, and I figured that the best way to search was to dump the contents of the ammo can into a bag, and then put all of the other things (in this case film canisters) back into the ammo can after I looked in them. After I dumped them all out, there was the nano sitting at the bottom.

 

Anyway, you're idea does need some work. What I would suggest, is to make it a multi. Fill the ammo can with a bunch of bolts, and one fake bolt with another set of co-ords in it. That would be a good way of getting around people 'helping you out' by putting a new log book in it.

[+Ladybug Kids]

Someone would just add a notebook though at some point.

LOL! That happened to me on one of my caches: NorthWes Pushes One Into the Woods

 

The ammo can is filled with golf balls, one of which is cut in half with a nano stuck inside.

 

That said, most of the logs are positive, indicating that people enjoyed the hunt. I'd go ahead and hide it...it's a unique idea (at least, I haven't seen one like it up here) and let the court of popular finders' opinion determine whether it's a good idea or not.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Ladybug Kids

[+J-Way]

Almost any idea posted to the forums will generate negative responses. The few that don't generate such responses will get a few "I agree" and "+1" posts, then quickly fall off the first page. No conflict = no discussion = obscurity. You should read the responses and take them as what they are: opinions from people who mostly don't matter. Unless people are pointing out clear guideline violations, or an actual reviewer tells you it won't fly, you can always choose to ignore the bleating from the gallery. Very often in these type of threads where someone posts an idea and most people slam it as the worst idea they've ever read, eventually someone will post a link to an existing cache with the same general idea. Said cache will have the same general logs as are in all caches.

 

That being said, I also fall into the large group of people who despise needle-in-a-haystack caches. They usually only serve to damage the local environment because even the most patient cacher can start to employ scorched-earth techniques if they REALLY want to make that find. But this isn't really a NIAHS cache... more like a needle-in-a-breadbox-filled-with-hay. Put your ammo can near a large rock after a long hike. The seeker can sit down, take a sip of water, and sort through your bolts while caching his/her breath.

 

So if you want to hide this type of cache, go for it! I might hunt it, I might not. Others might hunt it, and might not.

 

But I still strongly encourage you to make it a Mystery/Unknown and offset the coordinates. A cacher would be forced to read the description before finding, and can easily decide to hunt or not to hunt. If a cacher blindly follows the arrow and finds your box without reading the description you'll find yourself with a new logbook.

 

Have fun caching!

[Clan Riffster]

Fill the ammo can with a bunch of bolts, and one fake bolt with another set of co-ords in it. That would be a good way of getting around people 'helping you out' by putting a new log book in it.

Great idea! We've got a 2 stage multi around here that uses a similar idea. It was a hoot!

[Dinoprophet]

I don't like haystack hides, but I actually don't mind this one. It avoids the things I dislike about haystack hides: infinite possibilities and inadvertent damage to the area. I wouldn't want to find this style more than once, though. One time for a laugh would be enough.

[+Isonzo Karst]

I don't like haystack hides, but I actually don't mind this one. It avoids the things I dislike about haystack hides: infinite possibilities and inadvertent damage to the area. I wouldn't want to find this style more than once, though. One time for a laugh would be enough

 

That's the rub, and the reason for some of the early "annoying" responses to this thread. Like others who have been caching a while, I've seen it done quite a few times in quite a few ways, so it's not amusing anymore. However, just because I would quickly log a DNF and move on doesn't make it a bad hide.

 

I think J-Way's post is spot on. If it appeals to you, hide it!

[+Steve&GeoCarolyn]

Fill the ammo can with a bunch of bolts, and one fake bolt with another set of co-ords in it. That would be a good way of getting around people 'helping you out' by putting a new log book in it.

Great idea! We've got a 2 stage multi around here that uses a similar idea. It was a hoot!

 

We have a wonderful one like that here as well and it gets very good logs and is on a few favorite bookmark lists. (It is great fun in a beautiful place.) However, it isn't listed as a difficulty 4 hide, which is what I sense the OP wants. It is listed as a difficulty 2 hide.

 

Carolyn

[+Stargazer22]

I love challenging hides. I'll search for one for hours and go back multiple times. There was one we spent about 12 hours on in 4 trips. It was cleverly cammoed and well hidden, but in plain sight all the time. Those are the ones I find challenging and feel rewarded when I find them.

 

However, I detest needle in a haystack type of hides. Those aren't challenging or imaginative, just tiresome and annoying. Anyone can throw down a fake pine cone in a pile of pine cones and make a difficult hide. I'd much rather look for a cleverly hidden container with a great camo job than find a container quickly and have to sift through the contents, scrutinizing every little nut and bolt.

 

There are lots of ways to make hides hard to find without making them needle in a haystack hides. I remember one I found that was pretty difficult to find but was in plain sight all the time. It was a 4 to 5 inch diameter hunk of log that was hollowed out on the bottom with the cache underneath. It was NOT in a big piile of logs, just tucked back under a palmetto bush where it wasn't real visible. Looked right at it at least 5 times before turning it over and discovering the cache.

 

Honestly if I found a hide like this and couldn't see the logbook pretty quickly I would probably assume the log was missing and leave a couple of etra blank pages inside. Unless I had some good idea that the log was somehow 'hidden' in the cache I might assume the nuts and bolts were there to weight the container down or something.

[+Puppy Dawg]

"Nano in a haystack"

[+chrisrayn]

I still don't get why some people want to make geocaching "difficult"....

 

Some of us like a challenge! I know I'm always up for a good Train micro!

 

Actually, if somebody has to hide a traditional, I'd just as soon they make me work for it.

 

I like your original idea, however unless the nano isn't magnetic, it would be very easy to find - I found something similar once, and I figured that the best way to search was to dump the contents of the ammo can into a bag, and then put all of the other things (in this case film canisters) back into the ammo can after I looked in them. After I dumped them all out, there was the nano sitting at the bottom.

 

Anyway, you're idea does need some work. What I would suggest, is to make it a multi. Fill the ammo can with a bunch of bolts, and one fake bolt with another set of co-ords in it. That would be a good way of getting around people 'helping you out' by putting a new log book in it.

 

That was very helpful! I will have to make sure I don't use a metal container if I can help it. :-)

[+Taoiseach]

That was very helpful! I will have to make sure I don't use a metal container if I can help it. :-)

 

A metal container would be fine - The important part is that it doesn't have a magnet attached to it, such that it would just stick to the side of the ammo can

 

Like I said, this would likely be an ideal time for a fake bolt

 

Glad I could help!

Edited August 22, 2009 by Taoiseach

[+Arrow42]

I don't think this is the kind of cache I would appreciate very much.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Hmm...I'm really kind of conflicted.

 

My difficulty WAS based on the needle in a haystack method...and my idea was that someone could just sit and bide their time and work through what's there.

 

See...I see people putting 4 difficulties on things I spot immediately. That's not difficult, it's just overconfidence. If I end up at a fence post, I lift up the top of the fence. The only thing that ever DOES give me difficulty is when there are almost infinite possibilities...needles in haystacks.

 

Could someone maybe show me a 5 difficulty they've found that really IS a 5 difficulty and NOT because of a puzzle you had to solve beforehand or the "needle in the haystack" method?

 

Maybe even an on-site riddle would work.

 

This is a good question (there is even another current thread asking the same thing). There seems to be a few ways to create a 5 star difficulty cache.

 

The first, and most common, is to create a very difficult puzzle. I've solved several 5 star puzzles (and workd on several others) and although at least one of them was, IMHO, overrrated a legitimate 5 star puzzle may dozens of hours working on it to finally solve it. So, how do you create a traditional cache that might take an equal amount of time to find?

 

The needle in a haystack is one approach but doesn't seem to be very popular.

 

An extremely well done camo job is one way that can produce a really difficult hide. There are a couple of caches called Shelter II and Shelter III in Indiana (that latter has 3 finds and 199 DNFs since April 2006) that I *suspect* may fall into this category but I've never found them so can't say for sure.

 

Another factor that frequently makes finding a cache very difficult is when it's placed in an area where satellite reception is marginal. You still would have to hide in a spot where only those with an exceptional amount of geosense would be able to zero in on it quickly. One could take that to an extreme by hiding a cache in a cave where you'd get no GPS reception at all.

 

There is a cache in St. Paul that for which I read the listing that introduces a vertical component. It's hidden on a outdoor stairwell that's 10 stories or so high. That one isn't rated 5 stars though as the listing tells you how many steps you need to take to get to the correct elevation (but not from which direction). A cache on the side of a 300' cliff could provide both a 5 star terrain as well a five star difficulty because although the long/lat coordinates might be accurate you wouldn't know the elevation.

 

Another method I've seen for introducing difficulty is to hide it in such a way that finding the location and event locating the cache may be easy but actually retrieving the cache might require some extensive mental work.

 

Finally, there are some caches that have a 5 star rating that are also five stars for terrain, but special skills are required in the use of special equipment to get to the cache. I personally don't agree with rating caches in this manner but wish there was some other way to distinguish a cache that is a couple hundred feet from shore on a calm lake that could be accessed by anyone with a $10 *mart one inflatable raft, and a cache thatis in a gorge only accessible by paddling down river in class V rapids. Both require a boat to access the cache but the latter requires exceptional boat handling skills.

 

If I were to place a 5 star difficulty cache I'd probably try to come up with something that was a non-traditional small/micro, well camoflaged, and hidden someplace where there was a vertical component in the search.

[+chrisrayn]

Hmm...I'm really kind of conflicted.

 

My difficulty WAS based on the needle in a haystack method...and my idea was that someone could just sit and bide their time and work through what's there.

 

See...I see people putting 4 difficulties on things I spot immediately. That's not difficult, it's just overconfidence. If I end up at a fence post, I lift up the top of the fence. The only thing that ever DOES give me difficulty is when there are almost infinite possibilities...needles in haystacks.

 

Could someone maybe show me a 5 difficulty they've found that really IS a 5 difficulty and NOT because of a puzzle you had to solve beforehand or the "needle in the haystack" method?

 

Maybe even an on-site riddle would work.

 

This is a good question (there is even another current thread asking the same thing). There seems to be a few ways to create a 5 star difficulty cache.

 

The first, and most common, is to create a very difficult puzzle. I've solved several 5 star puzzles (and workd on several others) and although at least one of them was, IMHO, overrrated a legitimate 5 star puzzle may dozens of hours working on it to finally solve it. So, how do you create a traditional cache that might take an equal amount of time to find?

 

The needle in a haystack is one approach but doesn't seem to be very popular.

 

An extremely well done camo job is one way that can produce a really difficult hide. There are a couple of caches called Shelter II and Shelter III in Indiana (that latter has 3 finds and 199 DNFs since April 2006) that I *suspect* may fall into this category but I've never found them so can't say for sure.

 

Another factor that frequently makes finding a cache very difficult is when it's placed in an area where satellite reception is marginal. You still would have to hide in a spot where only those with an exceptional amount of geosense would be able to zero in on it quickly. One could take that to an extreme by hiding a cache in a cave where you'd get no GPS reception at all.

 

There is a cache in St. Paul that for which I read the listing that introduces a vertical component. It's hidden on a outdoor stairwell that's 10 stories or so high. That one isn't rated 5 stars though as the listing tells you how many steps you need to take to get to the correct elevation (but not from which direction). A cache on the side of a 300' cliff could provide both a 5 star terrain as well a five star difficulty because although the long/lat coordinates might be accurate you wouldn't know the elevation.

 

Another method I've seen for introducing difficulty is to hide it in such a way that finding the location and event locating the cache may be easy but actually retrieving the cache might require some extensive mental work.

 

Finally, there are some caches that have a 5 star rating that are also five stars for terrain, but special skills are required in the use of special equipment to get to the cache. I personally don't agree with rating caches in this manner but wish there was some other way to distinguish a cache that is a couple hundred feet from shore on a calm lake that could be accessed by anyone with a $10 *mart one inflatable raft, and a cache thatis in a gorge only accessible by paddling down river in class V rapids. Both require a boat to access the cache but the latter requires exceptional boat handling skills.

 

If I were to place a 5 star difficulty cache I'd probably try to come up with something that was a non-traditional small/micro, well camoflaged, and hidden someplace where there was a vertical component in the search.

 

Yeah...see, my dream is to make one that either has an on-site puzzle (not a solve-from-your-couch puzzle or a do-this-complicated-math-and-find-the-coords puzzle) or is extremely well camo'd. Or both.

 

But I don't like the idea of having a vertical component like a cliff that ups the difficulty because that, to me, is just another haystack, albeit a vertical one. Instead of creating a stack to search through, it spreads the stack up the side of a cliff which, by volumetric reallocation, could really be considered the same thing.

 

I also don't believe that something that requires special equipment like climbing stuff or a kayak should be considered 5 difficulty at all. If I'm using my climbing equipment, then that, to me, is merely a more extreme form of terrain, not difficulty. Also, if I have to have known beforehand to have an Allen wrench, that doesn't add to the difficulty either. It merely makes me go back to my car.

 

If I can ride by on a kayak and spot a giant bucket with a geocache sticker sitting in the woods and I can get out of my boat and walk right up to it, well that's a 1/5 to me. But if I see an arcade game in the woods at the coords and get out of my boat, and find out I have to beat classic Super Mario Bros. before an electronically-activated safe containing the cache is opened, well THAT definitely adds to the difficulty.

 

So I guess I, too, would disagree with the way difficulty works.

 

But the technological prowess it would require, as well as the need to possess Batman's financial portfolio, make such unique puzzles an impossibility for me. It seems to me it would be a 10.0 difficulty to MAKE a true 5.0 difficulty cache.

 

Yay for soapboxes. Actually, I need to find more before I develop a soapbox. :-)

[+Steve&GeoCarolyn]

But if I see an arcade game in the woods at the coords and get out of my boat, and find out I have to beat classic Super Mario Bros. before an electronically-activated safe containing the cache is opened, well THAT definitely adds to the difficulty.

 

So I guess I, too, would disagree with the way difficulty works.

 

But the technological prowess it would require, as well as the need to possess Batman's financial portfolio, make such unique puzzles an impossibility for me. It seems to me it would be a 10.0 difficulty to MAKE a true 5.0 difficulty cache.

 

Yay for soapboxes. Actually, I need to find more before I develop a soapbox. :-)

 

I've come across a few puzzles or difficult caches out in the field that I thought were truly wonderful. They all started with an on-the-page puzzle, but after that the real difficulty was in the field.

 

In one cache we had to stop thinking linearly and start thinking vertically. Since we thought we'd already solved the puzzle part, we weren't expecting this added twist. It was a difficulty 4 and deserved its difficulty level. We had to go home and think before we could go back and find the cache.

 

Another cache featured an easy quiz on the page, but once you got to the field you found multiple stages. At one stage we had to solve a three dimensional cube maze puzzle to open the crystal box which held the coordinates to the cache. It took us a half hour sitting on a log to manipulate the crystal maze before we could open it. A few more stages with manipulative puzzles or mathematical conversions to get the coordinates for the next stage would definitely increase the difficulty level. As it was, that was listed as a difficulty of 3.

 

One thing to consider is that a simple puzzle on the cache page is a serious distraction. It's a type of mental camo. People think, "Ha! Take that cache owner! I've solved your paltry puzzle. No way is this a level 4." But then as they encounter serious camouflage in the field or multiple stages each with it's own required solution, they are caught unaware and this increases the difficulty.

 

Carolyn

[+niraD]

One thing to consider is that a simple puzzle on the cache page is a serious distraction. It's a type of mental camo. People think, "Ha! Take that cache owner! I've solved your paltry puzzle. No way is this a level 4." But then as they encounter serious camouflage in the field or multiple stages each with it's own required solution, they are caught unaware and this increases the difficulty.

My first FTF was like that. Others had solved the easy puzzle on the cache description page. Others had solved the easy puzzle at stage 1, which was exactly the same as the one on the cache description page. But I was the first to identify and solve the physical puzzle at ground zero.

 

I really enjoy "solve it in the field" puzzles like that, but they're much more work to create and maintain, so there aren't as many of them around.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Yeah...see, my dream is to make one that either has an on-site puzzle (not a solve-from-your-couch puzzle or a do-this-complicated-math-and-find-the-coords puzzle) or is extremely well camo'd. Or both.

 

There are some that may claim that if you have to solve a puzzle while at the cache, then it should be classified as an "unknown". I've found some where there was a puzzle box that you had open to get the log. I've also found caches with combination locks with information in the listing on how to obtain the combination from information near the cache. In both cases, they were classified as unknown caches.

 

Personally, I don't care for on-site puzzles. The amount of time I have available is limited whereas I have quite a bit of free time at home in the evenings. When I do managed to get out to geocaching I prefer to spend that time actually searching for geocaches rather than solving puzzles.

 

If I can ride by on a kayak and spot a giant bucket with a geocache sticker sitting in the woods and I can get out of my boat and walk right up to it, well that's a 1/5 to me. But if I see an arcade game in the woods at the coords and get out of my boat, and find out I have to beat classic Super Mario Bros. before an electronically-activated safe containing the cache is opened, well THAT definitely adds to the difficulty.

 

 

For me, paddling a kayak 3-4 miles on relatively calm waters is less difficult that a 1/4 mile hike up a steep hill yet the 1/4 mile hike might be rated a 3 for terrain and the kayak cache a 5.

 

Yay for soapboxes. Actually, I need to find more before I develop a soapbox. :-)

 

I wonder if anyone has hidden a cache in a soapbox.

[+RobDJr]

I personally don't care much for 'needle in haystack' hides, I find them to be more tedious than difficult. But, as some have mentioned, a good location and privacy to do what needs doing goes a long way towards making it more fun.

 

I did one cache that had a similar theme as the OP's idea, and the owner included a small folded drop cloth in the cache to spread on the ground before dumping the contents out to search. I'd suggest you might want to do the same, if only to avoid having geo-litter building up in the area as people drop a nut or bolt here and there.

 

And please, make it crystal clear on the cache page that this isn't going to be a simple find, sign, and go type cache. Nothing annoys me more than looking for a cache on limited time only to find that it is going to be far more time consuming than the cache page indicated.

 

As for making a cache difficult, my favorites have all been caches that play off the perceptions (or more accurately, mis-perceptions) of the searcher.

[+Unkle Fester]

Why not take it to the next level?

 

Attach neodymium magnets all over the inside of the ammo can along with other metal pieces inside that are also attached to the can.

 

Install a cheap window/door alarm on the lid and top of the can. When the contacts are separated (the can is opened) a horrible scream comes out. Then the cacher couldn't dump out the crap inside to look through it.

We have a cache out in the woods like that, I haven't gone for it yet, but I have thought about it.

[PDXCattFam]

I dont think there's anything wrong with your idea. At least finding the ammo can itself will be easy. After that it's only going to take a little effort to find a nano amongst the other stuff in the can.

 

I'd rather do you cache any day than go looking for a fake rock in field of rocks or a small container hidden in ivy or a nano attached to a bridge. At least with your idea, the search area is limited to something I can hold in my lap. Put the cache somewhere with a nice view and no muggles and I'd happily take the time to find the log while I enjoy the view.

 

I'd be surprised if you could make that a difficulty 4 though.

 

 

I just want to put my two cents in: I agree with everything this post says. My vote is YES

[+BigFurryMonster]

You could even title it "Needle in a Haystack".

 

I'd name it "Nano in a bunch of stuff in an ammo can".

[greenworldfeather]

"Annoying" would be the word I'd use.

 

Yup, good word.

 

Someone would just add a notebook though at some point.

 

AH...and THAT's the true problem.

 

Annoying I was going for...but I don't want somebody throwing a book in there because they're lazy.

 

I'll probably just scrap the idea then.

 

No don't do that. I am doing something similar. I am going to try to have a micro container for them to find and have a log in there for them to sign. But there will be a second container just ffet away hidden away with stuff in it. I don't want to go to the trouble of having a log in the same container. I might just have it on one side saying search here right by the sign pole and the other side of the paper would be the log. I might have to replace it frequently, but I live on the otgher side of the block from it. Anyway, thanks and have a great day. gwf

Please do! There is nothing nice about that cache idea.

[+LandStar]

I love challenging hides. I'll search for one for hours and go back multiple times. There was one we spent about 12 hours on in 4 trips. It was cleverly cammoed and well hidden, but in plain sight all the time. Those are the ones I find challenging and feel rewarded when I find them.

 

However, I detest needle in a haystack type of hides. Those aren't challenging or imaginative, just tiresome and annoying. Anyone can throw down a fake pine cone in a pile of pine cones and make a difficult hide. I'd much rather look for a cleverly hidden container with a great camo job than find a container quickly and have to sift through the contents, scrutinizing every little nut and bolt.

 

There are lots of ways to make hides hard to find without making them needle in a haystack hides. I remember one I found that was pretty difficult to find but was in plain sight all the time. It was a 4 to 5 inch diameter hunk of log that was hollowed out on the bottom with the cache underneath. It was NOT in a big piile of logs, just tucked back under a palmetto bush where it wasn't real visible. Looked right at it at least 5 times before turning it over and discovering the cache.

 

Honestly if I found a hide like this and couldn't see the logbook pretty quickly I would probably assume the log was missing and leave a couple of etra blank pages inside. Unless I had some good idea that the log was somehow 'hidden' in the cache I might assume the nuts and bolts were there to weight the container down or something.

 

Well said Stargazer22! One of the most challenging hides in our area took a team of us over a year to find! It became our nemisis and still is for those who struggle with it. It is not an insane needle in a haystack, but a very well placed and well camo'd nano. When I finally laid eyes on that one it was like Christmas! There are two more just like it that after 8 months of periodic searching I have yet to find. I don't have a problem going after well crafted and hidden caches.

 

Drilling a hole in a white rock and throwing it out the window into a huge pile of white rocks does not inspire me. There is a cache in our area just like that. It offers full sun exposure at the edge of a lake, uneven footing on a 30 to 40 degree incline and oh yes....in the summer you stand a great chance of dancing with either a Copperhead or a Water Mocassin.

 

Looking for those types of caches is about as much fun as going to an all night dentist.

When I come across one that shows little or no creativity I just move on down the road. It's not my style and not what I want to spend my time doing. While waste time sorting through a bathtub full of mass produced glass marbles when there are unique multi-faceted geodes filled with natural creative wonder just waiting for us to discover them?

 

My young daughter says that the people who create those types of hides actually have 'issues'. That they take delight (and it is part of their therapy) in inflicting pain and discomfort on others. I don't really know about that, but sometimes I think she is right.

[Mushtang]

No worse than a 5 gallon jub filled with fim cans...

You could even title it "Needle in a Haystack".

About 6 years ago one of our better looking forum members published a very similar cache. It's not a 5 gallon jug, but a large ammo can, and it's filled with 35mm film cannisters. Only one has the coordinates to the other ammo can in the woods which contains the log and swag.

 

So far 137 people have found it, most have left lengthy logs saying how much they enjoyed it, and it's been copied at least twice (and last week an email asked if it could be copied again).

 

I say go for it. People will like it.