Wonder if Groundspeak knows about this

May 19, 2009

I still don't approve. They (Groundspeak) took caches that I (presumably) hid at my own expense and under a certain understanding, sold them to a third party, and breached that understanding.

Perhaps you should re-read the agreement you acknowledge when you list a cache on the site:

By submitting any Submission to Groundspeak, You grant Groundspeak a worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, perpetual, irrevocable, fully-paid royalty-free license and right to use, reproduce, distribute, import, broadcast, transmit, modify and create derivative works of, license, offer to sell, and sell, rent, lease or lend copies of, publicly display and publicly perform that Submission for any purpose and without restriction or obligation to You.

Groundspeak is completely within their rights to license any portion of their database to anybody they want. If you don't want your caches used that way, don't submit therm here.

As far as I am concerned, the only downside to this whole thing is the inconsistency with Groundspeak's apparent business model that is based on always using the site for the cache information. That and the cache maggots, of course.

May 19, 2009

Deleted Sorry for the Double post, from Server lag...

Edited May 19, 2009 by solo63137

6.7k · May 19, 2009

I still don't approve. They (Groundspeak) took caches that I (presumably) hid at my own expense and under a certain understanding, sold them to a third party, and breached that understanding. Even if not one single cache gets muggled, not one single coin or travel bug goes missing, even if no trash gets CITO'd by those that purchase the Kiddy GPS, those facts still stand! This is, in my opinion, a breach of contract!!

That's just plain silly! You put your listings on geocaching.com for them to be seen by the public. Groundspeak gives basic members a free look and sells bundles of listings to Premium Members as a PQ... that's the business they're in! 'Your' listings are all they have to sell and you knew that was their business model when you asked them to list your caches. How is this data load, call it a mega-PQ, any different?

Questions of data validity, PMOCs, etc may be legit, but questioning their right to sell listings is not.

May 19, 2009

Here's a custom PQ on eBay - http://cgi.ebay.com/Geocache-Pocket-Query-...=item4a97afc7f6

Now why didn't I think of that. Always a day late and a dollar short. (slap's self in forehead)

May 19, 2009

I read somewhere there is a special update data-base for these separate from PQ's. Can anyone confirm that? Or is that privileged info till the update kit is released.

5.8k · May 19, 2009

I agree there's a market there. I'm just not in it. Mostly for the reasons you cited.

I'm just saying they might find a more productive market had they followed a more standard path.

Again, I'm no marketing expert. This thing may make someone very rich.

If so, I wish them well.

Actually I would guess that "This Thing"...Preloaded with all of "Our Caches" will indeed make some one a lot of money. I guess this is what we get for all our work hiding caches and letting GS do whatever they want with the info. I vote for including a Check box that would allow a Cache hider to opt out of having their cache listed in theis thing. I fear that the way to opt out is to archive all your Caches though.

1.2k · May 19, 2009

There are a lot of technologically challenged adults. You know, the ones whose VCR clock has been flashing since the day they hooked it up. This device is tailor made for them.

Brain that is only because they get sick of resetting it each time the power goes out, which is often in many parts of the world.

6.7k · May 19, 2009

Actually I would guess that "This Thing"...Preloaded with all of "Our Caches" will indeed make some one a lot of money. I guess this is what we get for all our work hiding caches and letting GS do whatever they want with the info. I vote for including a Check box that would allow a Cache hider to opt out of having their cache listed in theis thing. I fear that the way to opt out is to archive all your Caches though.

Would you 'opt out' of having your caches 'sold' in a PQ? What's the difference?

I see some legitimate questions here, but their business model of selling listings isn't one of them, that's what they do!

5.8k · May 19, 2009

After some thought, I think the target niche for this product is reluctant parents.

"Geocaching? Treasure hunting? That's stupid. I'm too mature for such kid's stuff. The kids might like it, though." They buy one for the kids and turn them loose. The kids find all of the geocaches within their unsupervised range (if any) and ask for the parents to start carting them around. The parents watch the kids have fun and a few won't be able to resist joining in. One thing leads to another and next thing is the family has two new full-blown GPSs and a premium Groundspeak account.

This has got to be a gateway device. As a stand alone device I see it as an utter failure. Kids only have a relatively small supervised range. The kids in those videos, if one of my kids wouldn't have a single geocache available to them. I'd be more than a little upset if I bought this item thinking I could just turn them loose. Even as a middle teen there's only two or three for them to find, but by then they're probably "too cool" to do such kid's stuff.

At first I thought that there might be a problem with a high muggle rate. I'm not seeing much in the way any ethics of geocaching.

Also, I wonder how many of those 250K caches are trinketless micros. Don't we hear that those and kids don't mix well?

This kind of goes along with my biggest fear when thinking of this device...Parents/Grandparents/Uncle/Etc buy this for the kids and turn them loose...with little or no instructions, and the kids start finding Caches without the basic understanding to leave them in place, and what to do with Trackables and not to put certain things in them.

5.8k · May 19, 2009

What the cache hider thinks:

I found this great spot, I want to share it. I wrote up a cool description, I think the camo will give you a challenge, and I love the logs the finders so far have been writing. This one is my proudest work.

How Groundspeak treats it:

N53 12.345 W113 54.321 $0.00000012

Priceless!!

9.1k · May 19, 2009

Note to Lep: Please stop coming into my home and deleting archived caches from my GPSr. It is bothering my wife.

OK, so I came to your house and bothered your wife just that ONE time a few months ago. We all know how that turned out. Could we just drop this?

7.2k · May 19, 2009

Would you 'opt out' of having your caches 'sold' in a PQ? What's the difference?

I feels so ... mass marketed ... big box. Pretty soon it's not going to be a niche hobby. The unwashed masses will ruin the hobby. Etc.

To me, that's how it feels.

In my head, though, I don't this will be much of blip on the radar. There are some concerns, but I've got a funny feeling that it's not going to be much of a success.

BTW, the mass selling of geocache coordinates feels like what I suspected the Waymarking project was all about. Once you all have provided Groundspeak with enough interesting locations they sell to whoever will pay them for the data. I.e. it feels as though they're not in the hobby business, but the database business--and we're the suckers providing the data.

EDIT TO ADD: It just dawned on me this is the reason Groundspeak has continued to be so protective of "their" data--even to the ridiculous. There is no other site out there that can compete with services of geocaching.com, never mind the shear size of the number of caches. The original argument of Groundspeak being protective against another site coming in creating another geocaching site has long been touted. I've also long thought that was a ruse. Cache owners aren't going to run around the internet updating every site just update a set of coords or a hint. Folks aren't going to log on multiple site. Mass spreading duplicate cache data simply was illogical. A small percentage would do it, but as a whole, nah, won't happen. Jeremy even knows what someone might face if they attempted to mass move data against the communities wishes.

Now we know why Groundspeak continues to be so protective of the data. This Playskool GPS is a manifestation of why they've been so protective. It's not against another competing site. It's against avenues we've not even thought about. Many of the arguments against certain features by contributing members of this community have been completely tossed out the window with this new device. Does anyone think things will change for us? I don't. We're just the suckers.

Question: considering this has to have been in the works for a while. How many even heard about this? Is this the reason, and other unknown projects, have taken up development time and taken away from providing us with the services we've been wanting for years? Makes one wonder.

Edited May 19, 2009 by CoyoteRed

5.8k · May 19, 2009

Actually I would guess that "This Thing"...Preloaded with all of "Our Caches" will indeed make some one a lot of money. I guess this is what we get for all our work hiding caches and letting GS do whatever they want with the info. I vote for including a Check box that would allow a Cache hider to opt out of having their cache listed in theis thing. I fear that the way to opt out is to archive all your Caches though.

Would you 'opt out' of having your caches 'sold' in a PQ? What's the difference?

I see some legitimate questions here, but their business model of selling listings isn't one of them, that's what they do!

PQs are not "Sold" they are just a tool given to those players who are already invested enough in the game to pay for an extended membership. Let's see...people used to be able to view the Cache coordinates without signing up, but that was causing problems, so it was changed(one step forward). Now people will be able to access Cache locations without signing up??? And the market seems to be kids who are likely to grab everything pretty or shiny, or even the whole thing and run with it?? Two steps back. Just my opinion.

6.7k · May 19, 2009

PQs are not "Sold" they are just a tool given to those players who are already invested enough in the game to pay for an extended membership.

Of course they are sold... ask Premium Members why we're willing to pay for a Premium Membership. Overwhelmingly the answer will be "To get PQs".

I have no argument with the rest of your post!

5.8k · May 19, 2009

PQs are not "Sold" they are just a tool given to those players who are already invested enough in the game to pay for an extended membership.

Of course they are sold... ask Premium Members why we're willing to pay for a Premium Membership. Overwhelmingly the answer will be "To get PQs".

I have no argument with the rest of your post!

Well, I guess we could go around in circles about that...I didn't buy my watch to see what the date is, that's just a tool that came on it. PQ's are not the reason I pay for a membership, so I guess I don't see it the same way as others. Mostly, I pay so that I can scroll around the GC.com maps.

May 19, 2009

I fear that the way to opt out is to archive all your Caches though.

By doing this you hurt and help kill the hobby...

Are you really that Nut Up about this that if they don't do it your way, you'd rather burn it down???

Edited May 19, 2009 by solo63137

May 19, 2009

I feels so ... mass marketed ... big box. Pretty soon it's not going to be a niche hobby. The unwashed masses will ruin the hobby. Etc.

To me, that's how it feels.

By niche did you mean exclusive? Yeah, that band was so cool until everyone else found out about them....now they are sell outs MMMMAAAAAAANNNNN.

Question: considering this has to have been in the works for a while. How many even heard about this? Is this the reason, and other unknown projects, have taken up development time and taken away from providing us with the services we've been wanting for years? Makes one wonder.

I would think that in this case, Groundspeak is mainly a data provider (unless you have other info). But for those who feel like Groundspeak is neglecting them, it's just one more piece of "proof."

5.8k · May 19, 2009

I fear that the way to opt out is to archive all your Caches though.

By doing this you hurt and help kill the hobby...

Are you really that Nut Up about this that if they don't do it your way, you'd rather burn it down???

No, my point was that they are not likely to provide any way for us to Opt Out. Since they are in the business of taking user created works and selling them they are not likely to provide any way for us to have greater control of the info.

May 19, 2009

I still don't approve. They (Groundspeak) took caches that I (presumably) hid at my own expense and under a certain understanding, sold them to a third party, and breached that understanding. Even if not one single cache gets muggled, not one single coin or travel bug goes missing, even if no trash gets CITO'd by those that purchase the Kiddy GPS, those facts still stand! This is, in my opinion, a breach of contract!!

But did you read the contract?

"By submitting any Submission to Groundspeak, You grant Groundspeak a worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, perpetual, irrevocable, fully-paid royalty-free license and right to use, reproduce, distribute, import, broadcast, transmit, modify and create derivative works of, license, offer to sell, and sell, rent, lease or lend copies of, publicly display and publicly perform that Submission for any purpose and without restriction or obligation to You."

How was your "certain understanding" different from this contract?

May 19, 2009

Here's a custom PQ on eBay - http://cgi.ebay.com/Geocache-Pocket-Query-...=item4a97afc7f6

Now why didn't I think of that. Always a day late and a dollar short. (slap's self in forehead)

Now THAT doesn't sound ethical. I wonder if there is something in the membership agreement preventing the sale of PQ's. It seems to me that among these cache locations there will be premium-only caches which the bidder may not even log (and shouldn't actually have access to). Sounds like theft of service to me. Actually, doesn't Groundspeak reserve the right to transfer of this information?

Of course, if you're at all serious about caching you'd probably buy more than 10 of these in a year which would be the break even point for premium membership. And there are other advantages to premium membership.

Wow, no shipping charge. They want your email address so they can attach the compressed file to it. What a deal! I can't see them selling many (if any) of these.

Dennis

19k · May 19, 2009

I still don't approve. They (Groundspeak) took caches that I (presumably) hid at my own expense and under a certain understanding, sold them to a third party, and breached that understanding. Even if not one single cache gets muggled, not one single coin or travel bug goes missing, even if no trash gets CITO'd by those that purchase the Kiddy GPS, those facts still stand! This is, in my opinion, a breach of contract!!

But did you read the contract?

"By submitting any Submission to Groundspeak, You grant Groundspeak a worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, perpetual, irrevocable, fully-paid royalty-free license and right to use, reproduce, distribute, import, broadcast, transmit, modify and create derivative works of, license, offer to sell, and sell, rent, lease or lend copies of, publicly display and publicly perform that Submission for any purpose and without restriction or obligation to You."

How was your "certain understanding" different from this contract?

Yes, yes, yes... as several of you have pointed out... legally, it was not a breach of contract. Doesn't mean that I have to like it, though.

1.3k · May 19, 2009

For those claiming "opt-out" from the database because someone is making a buck out of your work (your words, not mine), I suggest asking a percentage - if not the total - of the advertising revenue of the banners at your cache pages.

That will show them!

*sigh*

7.2k · May 19, 2009

But did you read the contract?

"By submitting any Submission to Groundspeak, You grant Groundspeak a worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, perpetual, irrevocable, fully-paid royalty-free license and right to use, reproduce, distribute, import, broadcast, transmit, modify and create derivative works of, license, offer to sell, and sell, rent, lease or lend copies of, publicly display and publicly perform that Submission for any purpose and without restriction or obligation to You."

How was your "certain understanding" different from this contract?

Yes, I read the TOU. Here's the thing. Reading the TOU agreement one gets the idea that in order for this site to work, and pay for hardware, bandwidth, put a little grub on the table, that this site needs to sell its services. I can't speak for others but I always thought this meant to other hobbyists. Up to now this meant someone who took the time to come to this site and read up on it. At least, read a news article and get a good gist of the hobby. Someone who thought it was an interesting enough hobby to look into it. Now, potentially, a person could be handed this McGPS and told nothing. Unless there are cache sheets in the cache (which there should be, right?) they could go around finding caches and not have the first clue of what they're supposed to be doing.

So, in a way, to me, it feels a little like I've misplaced trust in Groundspeak in guarding my data. They do a pretty good job of guarding it against me and then turn around hand it off to outsiders.

It wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal if our caches weren't so vulnerable in the real world.

Again, that's how it feels.

7.2k · May 19, 2009

No, my point was that they are not likely to provide any way for us to Opt Out. Since they are in the business of taking user created works and selling them they are not likely to provide any way for us to have greater control of the info.

They're not likely to offer a way to opt out because that would reduce the size of the data being offered for sale.

7.2k · May 19, 2009

Here's a curious question. Don't we normally get a cheerful announcement of new products in the Groundspeak shop? Why not with this product?

6.7k · May 19, 2009

But did you read the contract?

"By submitting any Submission to Groundspeak, You grant Groundspeak a worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, perpetual, irrevocable, fully-paid royalty-free license and right to use, reproduce, distribute, import, broadcast, transmit, modify and create derivative works of, license, offer to sell, and sell, rent, lease or lend copies of, publicly display and publicly perform that Submission for any purpose and without restriction or obligation to You."

How was your "certain understanding" different from this contract?

Yes, I read the TOU. Here's the thing. Reading the TOU agreement one gets the idea that in order for this site to work, and pay for hardware, bandwidth, put a little grub on the table, that this site needs to sell its services. I can't speak for others but I always thought this meant to other hobbyists. Up to now this meant someone who took the time to come to this site and read up on it. At least, read a news article and get a good gist of the hobby. Someone who thought it was an interesting enough hobby to look into it. Now, potentially, a person could be handed this McGPS and told nothing. Unless there are cache sheets in the cache (which there should be, right?) they could go around finding caches and not have the first clue of what they're supposed to be doing.

So, in a way, to me, it feels a little like I've misplaced trust in Groundspeak in guarding my data. They do a pretty good job of guarding it against me and then turn around hand it off to outsiders.

It wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal if our caches weren't so vulnerable in the real world.

Again, that's how it feels.

A breach of trust does not need to be a breach of contract.

4.2k · May 19, 2009

But did you read the contract?

"By submitting any Submission to Groundspeak, You grant Groundspeak a worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, perpetual, irrevocable, fully-paid royalty-free license and right to use, reproduce, distribute, import, broadcast, transmit, modify and create derivative works of, license, offer to sell, and sell, rent, lease or lend copies of, publicly display and publicly perform that Submission for any purpose and without restriction or obligation to You."

How was your "certain understanding" different from this contract?

Yes, I read the TOU. Here's the thing. Reading the TOU agreement one gets the idea that in order for this site to work, and pay for hardware, bandwidth, put a little grub on the table, that this site needs to sell its services. I can't speak for others but I always thought this meant to other hobbyists. Up to now this meant someone who took the time to come to this site and read up on it. At least, read a news article and get a good gist of the hobby. Someone who thought it was an interesting enough hobby to look into it. Now, potentially, a person could be handed this McGPS and told nothing. Unless there are cache sheets in the cache (which there should be, right?) they could go around finding caches and not have the first clue of what they're supposed to be doing.

So, in a way, to me, it feels a little like I've misplaced trust in Groundspeak in guarding my data. They do a pretty good job of guarding it against me and then turn around hand it off to outsiders.

It wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal if our caches weren't so vulnerable in the real world.

Again, that's how it feels.

You act like they are giving these things away to the people standing in line at the DMV. "Here's your mystery device- follow the arrow!"

Or maybe you're exaggerating to make your point. It's the internet and I can't tell.

I think anybody that buys these will have some idea what they are buying it for. I agree that there should probably be more description in the paperwork, but when I look over some of the posts made on this forum it's pretty clear to me that spelling things out on the website is not fool-proof either. Registered members using full-featured GPS units seem to be able to ignore/misread some of the more important guidelines on a regular basis.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Castle Mischief

1.3k · May 19, 2009

I think anybody that buys these will have some idea what they are buying it for. I agree that there should probably be more description in the paperwork, but when I look over some of the posts made on this forum it's pretty clear to me that spelling things out on the website is not fool-proof either. Registered members using full-featured GPS units seem to be able to ignore/misread some of the more important guidelines on a regular basis.

Great post! Totally agree.

Some are making a REALLY big deal out of this. So, next time, Groundspeak should speak to each one of you about your views over the next products - When in fact, it's not needed, as it is clearly written in TOU.

Go caching. Follow the arrow - and read the description.

7.2k · May 19, 2009

You act like they are giving these things away to the people standing in line at the DMV. "Here's your mystery device- follow the arrow!"

Or maybe you're exaggerating to make your point. It's the internet and I can't tell.

Well, I've said a few times this is how it feels. I don't think there's going to be enough units sold to do real damage to the hobby. The damage will be localized to the areas where someone decides to go to the dark side.

I think anybody that buys these will have some idea what they are buying it for. I agree that there should probably be more description in the paperwork, but when I look over some of the posts made on this forum it's pretty clear to me that spelling things out on the website is not fool-proof either. Registered members using full-featured GPS units seem to be able to ignore/misread some of the more important guidelines on a regular basis.

It'd be nice to know what is actually included with the unit. Is there a card to explains the hobby, the ethics, decorum, etc.? We don't know. The one person on here that's known to have purchased one hasn't told us. If there's a "what is..." card I hope it explains geocaching a lot better than the video the company has put on YouTube.

7.2k · May 19, 2009

Go caching. Follow the arrow - and read the description.

The McGPS doesn't have descriptions. That's one of the points some are making.

20.7k · May 19, 2009

A breach of trust does not need to be a breach of contract.

In the hypothetical, I guess that that is true. However, I don't believe that it is true in this instance.

They have made it very clear for years and years that they can and will sell the information. Therefore, their selling this data is neither a breach of contract nor trust.

Edited May 19, 2009 by sbell111

1.3k · May 19, 2009

Go caching. Follow the arrow - and read the description.

The McGPS doesn't have descriptions. That's one of the points some are making.

My point wasn't for users of Geomate Jr. It was for all the others.

20.7k · May 19, 2009

Go caching. Follow the arrow - and read the description.
The McGPS doesn't have descriptions. That's one of the points some are making.
My point wasn't for users of Geomate Jr. It was for all the others.

Your point is well taken.

Many people have stated that they don't use descriptions. They prefer to simply load coords into their GPSrs and head out the door. While this is not my method and I believe that this technique will result in a slightly less fun geocaching experience than my method of having gobs of data at my fingertips, this stripped-down caching method is still perfectly valid. Since it is valid for these current players, I see no reason that it wouldn't be valid for users of this new device.

Some people also brought up the fact that the 'handle' of the cache owner is not transferred to this device. I can't imagine why this is an issue. No CO names have ever resided on any GPSr that I have ever used. I don't expect to be loading them in the future.

Edited May 19, 2009 by sbell111

May 19, 2009

Yes, I read the TOU. Here's the thing. Reading the TOU agreement one gets the idea that in order for this site to work, and pay for hardware, bandwidth, put a little grub on the table, that this site needs to sell its services. I can't speak for others but I always thought this meant to other hobbyists. Up to now this meant someone who took the time to come to this site and read up on it. At least, read a news article and get a good gist of the hobby. Someone who thought it was an interesting enough hobby to look into it. Now, potentially, a person could be handed this McGPS and told nothing. Unless there are cache sheets in the cache (which there should be, right?) they could go around finding caches and not have the first clue of what they're supposed to be doing.

So, in a way, to me, it feels a little like I've misplaced trust in Groundspeak in guarding my data. They do a pretty good job of guarding it against me and then turn around hand it off to outsiders.

It wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal if our caches weren't so vulnerable in the real world.

Again, that's how it feels.

Using the term "outsider" could be taken by some to suggest that there's some kind of qualification which you have to meet to become a geocacher. Maybe up till now we were an intrinsically restricted group because you had to have bought the geeky gadget, but the writing has been on the wall for that model ever since GPS chipsets dropped to a dollar each or whatever it is they cost, so that pretty soon every PDA, phone, and Oregon 550 digital camera will have one. We're all going to have to get used to the fact that a bunch of people who we consider to have had things made easy for them are about to join the game, just as people who were members on the day that you or I signed up probably did. Have a look at some of the past threads in here about there being too many caches; I bet there's some from 2004.

Actually I think that someone who has been out and found 1 (one) cache with a Geomate.jr might well probably be a much better geocacher than quite a few of the people who submit caches for my colleagues and me to review.

To give one example, we've started to see quite a few cache submissions from school students: the teacher might be a cacher but more likely will have just read about the game or picked up on the idea of a class assignment from a colleague. S/he will bring a GPSr into class, and the assignment will be for the kids to place a cache and get it published on Geocaching.com. So the hardware and bandwidth barriers to entry are effectively zero; creating an account with a cute name in NoNsT0pC4m3lCa5e takes 30 seconds; placing the cache takes another 30 seconds (because they walk 200 feet from the classroom door, tops); typing up the listing page takes 2 minutes tops; and explaining to all of them why none of their caches can be published (proximity, school property, oh and dude, a cardboard shoe box is not an appropriate outdoor container) takes the reviewer several hours and earns him or her some pretty "classy" replies ("my kid is going to get an F if you don't publish this cache" sets the tone). Most of the kids aren't remotely motivated by the game, and I can well imagine one or two of the more unruly ones taking their revenge by borrowing the GPSr and trashing a couple of local caches ("take that, nerds!").

From what I've read here and been told elsewhere, it seems like the quality of the caches in the Geomate.jr (actually, I wish they had called it the McGPS) is well above the average of what's currently being published. Given that most people's first few hides are heavily influenced by their first few finds, maybe this will actually lead to an improvement in overall cache quality. (Those of a paranoid disposition may choose to interpret this as "Groundspeak is planning to abolish micros", of course.)

4.2k · May 19, 2009

It'd be nice to know what is actually included with the unit. Is there a card to explains the hobby, the ethics, decorum, etc.? We don't know. The one person on here that's known to have purchased one hasn't told us. If there's a "what is..." card I hope it explains geocaching a lot better than the video the company has put on YouTube.

From reading BadAndy's post and reading the .pdf files at the website it's pretty clear to me what's in the product box.

...There was a small foldout quickstart guide but no user manual. There was a url you could go to for a pdf copy instead.

The URLs for the documentation have been posted before in this thread, but here they are again:

http://www.geomatejr.com/quick_start_guide.pdf

http://www.geomatejr.com/GeomatejrUsersGuide.pdf

4.4k · May 19, 2009

Could someone from Groundspeak please confirm that PMO caches will not be loaded into this gadget?

I'm surprised at the lack of communication from Groundspeak, considering they've made a subtle but significant change to the dynamics of this game with no warning.

Hello?

4.2k · May 19, 2009

Could someone from Groundspeak please confirm that PMO caches will not be loaded into this gadget?

I'm surprised at the lack of communication from Groundspeak, considering they've made a subtle but significant change to the dynamics of this game with no warning.

Hello?

You should ask them at the next share-holder's meeting. Surely you got the invitation?

6.7k · May 19, 2009

Could someone from Groundspeak please confirm that PMO caches will not be loaded into this gadget?

I'm surprised at the lack of communication from Groundspeak, considering they've made a subtle but significant change to the dynamics of this game with no warning.

Hello?

You should ask them at the next share-holder's meeting. Surely you got the invitation?

What is the problem with asking a question? It isn't like they demanded every last one of these things be recalled and launched into the sun. I'd be curious to know what criteria was used to select the caches included on this thing.

3.1k · May 19, 2009

Here's a curious question. Don't we normally get a cheerful announcement of new products in the Groundspeak shop? Why not with this product?

Probably because they hoped this one would sneak in under the radar. It certainly is not the crown jewel in their offering. Not even in the fake jewelry department.

3.1k · May 19, 2009

Could someone from Groundspeak please confirm that PMO caches will not be loaded into this gadget?

I'm surprised at the lack of communication from Groundspeak, considering they've made a subtle but significant change to the dynamics of this game with no warning.

Hello?

Surprised at the lack of communication??????? I would be stunned if they did communicate.

4.4k · May 19, 2009

Well, the Lackeys have been wonderfully forthright regarding changes to the web site.

Regarding changes to the game, however...

6.7k · May 19, 2009

From what I've read here and been told elsewhere, it seems like the quality of the caches in the Geomate.jr (actually, I wish they had called it the McGPS) is well above the average of what's currently being published. Given that most people's first few hides are heavily influenced by their first few finds, maybe this will actually lead to an improvement in overall cache quality. (Those of a paranoid disposition may choose to interpret this as "Groundspeak is planning to abolish micros", of course.)

What have you been told elsewhere. What do you know about the criteria used to select caches included on the McGPS?

7.2k · May 19, 2009

The URLs for the documentation have been posted before in this thread, but here they are again:

http://www.geomatejr.com/quick_start_guide.pdf

http://www.geomatejr.com/GeomatejrUsersGuide.pdf

Color me red.

Thanks for re-posting. What I've read so far is encouraging.

19k · May 19, 2009

I'd be interested in what criteria was used to select the caches included with this thing. How did they select them? What did they use to eliminate caches from the list?

A local cacher interviewed the company and the creator of the GeoMate Jr GPS for a podcast that he publishes. He says that his podcast should be published on Sunday or Monday. Here's a link to the Twin Cities GeoCaching PodCast site.

The interview podcast is now available at the URL mentioned above.

May 19, 2009

To me, the device seems to serve the purpose of what I already do. I take my older etrex, and fill it up with caches. I haven't updated it in forever. What I do is hand it to my kids when we're caching so that they can follow the arrow. I really don't think that it is meant to be an only unit, and if it is just a starter unit, as implied by "jr". After seeing the manual and quick start guide I feel that confirms it for me.

5.8k · May 19, 2009

No, my point was that they are not likely to provide any way for us to Opt Out. Since they are in the business of taking user created works and selling them they are not likely to provide any way for us to have greater control of the info.

They're not likely to offer a way to opt out because that would reduce the size of the data being offered for sale.

i agree, that's what puts the fear in me...The only way to opt out will be to hide no Caches(or make them PMO, if that works)

5.8k · May 19, 2009

But did you read the contract?

"By submitting any Submission to Groundspeak, You grant Groundspeak a worldwide, non-exclusive, transferable, perpetual, irrevocable, fully-paid royalty-free license and right to use, reproduce, distribute, import, broadcast, transmit, modify and create derivative works of, license, offer to sell, and sell, rent, lease or lend copies of, publicly display and publicly perform that Submission for any purpose and without restriction or obligation to You."

How was your "certain understanding" different from this contract?

Yes, I read the TOU. Here's the thing. Reading the TOU agreement one gets the idea that in order for this site to work, and pay for hardware, bandwidth, put a little grub on the table, that this site needs to sell its services. I can't speak for others but I always thought this meant to other hobbyists. Up to now this meant someone who took the time to come to this site and read up on it. At least, read a news article and get a good gist of the hobby. Someone who thought it was an interesting enough hobby to look into it. Now, potentially, a person could be handed this McGPS and told nothing. Unless there are cache sheets in the cache (which there should be, right?) they could go around finding caches and not have the first clue of what they're supposed to be doing.

So, in a way, to me, it feels a little like I've misplaced trust in Groundspeak in guarding my data. They do a pretty good job of guarding it against me and then turn around hand it off to outsiders.

It wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal if our caches weren't so vulnerable in the real world.

Again, that's how it feels.

You act like they are giving these things away to the people standing in line at the DMV. "Here's your mystery device- follow the arrow!"

Or maybe you're exaggerating to make your point. It's the internet and I can't tell.

I think anybody that buys these will have some idea what they are buying it for. I agree that there should probably be more description in the paperwork, but when I look over some of the posts made on this forum it's pretty clear to me that spelling things out on the website is not fool-proof either. Registered members using full-featured GPS units seem to be able to ignore/misread some of the more important guidelines on a regular basis.

Can the day of 10,000,000 of these being sold at Toys Us be too far off?? These look like a great add on device for players that want a different tool(for the kids/for trips etc), but they are being marketed to people who may not have a clue to leave a Cache where you found it, or not to pocket the hundreds of Geocoins I've spent thousands of dollars on. That's the thing that I don't like.

6.7k · May 19, 2009

I'd be interested in what criteria was used to select the caches included with this thing. How did they select them? What did they use to eliminate caches from the list?

A local cacher interviewed the company and the creator of the GeoMate Jr GPS for a podcast that he publishes. He says that his podcast should be published on Sunday or Monday. Here's a link to the Twin Cities GeoCaching PodCast site.

The interview podcast is now available at the URL mentioned above.

Great, now I have to figure out pod casts. It's gonna have to wait until the lawn has been decapitated.

3.1k · May 19, 2009

I can see it now:

CAR HIT BY CHILD'S ELECTRONICS AS FATHER THROWS TOY GPS OUT THE WINDOW.

(AP) Ohio State Police report that a motorist on I95 narrowly avoided a serious accident today when his vehicle's windshield was hit by a small electronic device.

OSP stopped the offending vehicle and discovered a dad became annoyed when his son kept saying "There is a cache 300 yards over there. Oh wait, now there is one 250 yards on the other side......"

Losing patience, the dad through the unit out the window. OSP recovered an unrecognizable piece of cheap plastic from the Interstate.

In an unrelated story, police report small children being abandoned at truck stops across the country.

3.1k · May 19, 2009

On a more positive note, they probably don't support the metric system on the Geomate and therefore will not be allowed to sell them in Canada, and hopefully other metric jurisdictions throughout the world.

Wonder if Groundspeak knows about this

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