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Wonder if Groundspeak knows about this


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BTW, as a note on cache attrition: In Michigan, we seem to on average lose between 50 and 100 caches a week (and at least during part of the year, gain 100-200 caches a week). There's obviously some seasonal variation in there. So we're losing about .5 to 1 percent of the caches in the state every week. I couldn't tell you the average age of a cache that goes archived, because that would take, well, more effort than I'm willing to expend at the moment :unsure:. (Hmm, actually, we're up to about 12000 caches, so those percentages are a bit lower than what I said.)

That percentage doesn't factor in the filtering that is taken to obtain the geomate file.
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Actually, thinking about it, I wonder if it might not be best to start archiving any of our caches that are in the least bit dangerous. I would hate to see a kid whose parents set him lose with this POS get hurt at one of our caches!

I would think that's Groundspeak's problem now. They sold the coordinates to somebody. Does your nickname even go along with those coordinates anymore?

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So I guess when I write "Please do not disturb any graves or headstones, and be aware that the cache is NOT in the stone wall" in one of my cache descriptions, it won't really make a difference because users of this device don't have to worry about the "traditional fuss" of "preplanning" like READING THE CACHE PAGE?!?!?!

That right. AND THIS IS NOTHING NEW. Traditionals, by definitions, are findable by having only the coordinates. If there's information on the cache page that you consider to be critical that the cacher know, then you should have marked your cache as Mystery/Unknown.

 

A lot of people will, especially when traveling, load up their GPS with just Traditionals, because they can do impromptu caching without having to refer to the cache page.

 

That is a rather naive statement. I know several "traditonals" that are micros with coordinates in the middle of the road. The cache in in the the huge culvert under your feet. Should be interesting with Jr. tries to find them.

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If there's information on the cache page that you consider to be critical that the cacher know, then you should have marked your cache as Mystery/Unknown.

 

Huh?!? :unsure: That's the first time I've ever heard of that! So, my regular cache near (but not in) a cemetery, because is says, "There is no need to enter the cemetery" should be a Mystery/Unknown cache?

 

My regular cache that says "Even if your GPS points you toward the RR tracks, there is NO need to go near them!" should be a Mystery/Puzzle cache?

 

Any cache that says "The cache is on private property with permisson" should be a Mystery/Puzzle cache?

 

I could continue, but I won't bother. I think I've made my point.

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That is a rather naive statement. I know several "traditonals" that are micros with coordinates in the middle of the road. The cache in in the the huge culvert under your feet. Should be interesting with Jr. tries to find them.

 

Actually (and I am the LAST person that you will see defending this move!) I have it on pretty good authority (and will post that authority as soon as I can) that the caches were vetted to be family and kid-friendly prior to giving them out to the Playskool GPS folks. Your particular situation is probably not going to occur.

 

On the other hand... that points towards even more work/time/money spent by the PTB getting this ready.

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If there's information on the cache page that you consider to be critical that the cacher know, then you should have marked your cache as Mystery/Unknown.

 

Huh?!? :unsure: That's the first time I've ever heard of that! So, my regular cache near (but not in) a cemetery, because is says, "There is no need to enter the cemetery" should be a Mystery/Unknown cache?

 

My regular cache that says "Even if your GPS points you toward the RR tracks, there is NO need to go near them!" should be a Mystery/Puzzle cache?

 

Any cache that says "The cache is on private property with permisson" should be a Mystery/Puzzle cache?

 

I could continue, but I won't bother. I think I've made my point.

Perhaps "should have" is a little strong, but don't sneer at the idea. There's no question that many cachers never read a cache page, so if you want people to either get critical information or ignore the cache, this is one way to do it. Another way is to make your cache a multi, for instance to lead cachers to a trail instead of through someone's back yard, which may be the shortest way to the intended site.

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If there's information on the cache page that you consider to be critical that the cacher know, then you should have marked your cache as Mystery/Unknown.

 

Huh?!? :unsure: That's the first time I've ever heard of that! So, my regular cache near (but not in) a cemetery, because is says, "There is no need to enter the cemetery" should be a Mystery/Unknown cache?

 

My regular cache that says "Even if your GPS points you toward the RR tracks, there is NO need to go near them!" should be a Mystery/Puzzle cache?

 

Any cache that says "The cache is on private property with permisson" should be a Mystery/Puzzle cache?

 

I could continue, but I won't bother. I think I've made my point.

Perhaps "should have" is a little strong, but don't sneer at the idea. There's no question that many cachers never read a cache page, so if you want people to either get critical information or ignore the cache, this is one way to do it. Another way is to make your cache a multi, for instance to lead cachers to a trail instead of through someone's back yard, which may be the shortest way to the intended site.

 

Maybe, but nobody does that. Not that I've ever seen, anyway.

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That is a rather naive statement. I know several "traditonals" that are micros with coordinates in the middle of the road. The cache in in the the huge culvert under your feet. Should be interesting with Jr. tries to find them.

 

Actually (and I am the LAST person that you will see defending this move!) I have it on pretty good authority (and will post that authority as soon as I can) that the caches were vetted to be family and kid-friendly prior to giving them out to the Playskool GPS folks. Your particular situation is probably not going to occur.

 

On the other hand... that points towards even more work/time/money spent by the PTB getting this ready.

 

Just how much vetting can be done with a quarter million caches? Did someone go out and inspect each and every one? I suspect it is more likely that they picked caches under x# stars difficulty and terrain with such and such attributes set.

 

GS has, I am sure, very good lawyers on retainer. Lawyers that won't think twice about tossing some poor cache hider to the wolves if it will make their case easier to deal out of. Even if they wanted to protect your identity a quick trip to court by the plaintiff is gonna net a warrant for any record that may in any way be relevant. These are the risks we take and this bit has not changed.

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As has been noted, the .jr contains SIRFstarIII and thus should be quite accurate.

 

A lot of talk here has centered on kid usage. But all the publicity says family-friendly. I have not found anything proposing it for child use alone. Yes, the photos show children, but "family" is usually interpreted to mean adults plus children (even though my family groupings are now adult-only). It's called .jr because it's a beginner unit, not because it's for children.

 

I have to wonder if this is in fact a trial version of a more sophisticated caching GPS. Many threads here have revolved around wanting all caches in an area to be loaded. The problems have always been GPSr capacity and server load. Capacity has been available and just waiting for the GPSr software to handle more waypoints: apparently solved. The geomate.jr deals with server capacity because all units contain the same cache list. How much trouble would it be to add description, hint, and logs? Right, not much. How many current geocachers would like to have all traditional caches always in their pockets? Right, a lot.

 

I mentioned server load. It's been noted that the list of updates does not have to be generated separately for each unit. But there are more advantages. The unit can save an identifier which tells the server how far it's been updated, and the server only sends updates after that -- so having the 250K preloaded means never having to re-send. Also, notices of archiving can be included in the updates -- something which would have required significant additional database load for personalized lists (classic PQs).

 

I see a lot to like here. The number of registered cachers on gc.com has roughly doubled in the past two years (based on my hidden ID number and recent ones). But up to now, geocaching requires quite a significant learning curve -- sitting inside using a computer! The geomate.jr cuts this part out -- maybe too much, but it certainly cuts out a lot of time and learning which is extraneous to geocaching.

 

None of this means I can like the current geomate. Failure to force updates and encourage online logging is a serious error in my view.

 

The update kit should have shipped with original, with cost included. And that means cost of updates for the lifetime of the unit.

 

Registration on gc.com should have been required for the unit to locate caches.

 

Visiting a geomate page on gc.com should have been required to download the updates; this page would encourage online logging. (Of course we cannot, and do not want to, require online logging.)

 

A PM account should have been required to make PMO caches visible.

 

An update within a certain time limit (perhaps two weeks or a month) should have been required; caches should become invisible without updates.

 

No need to explain the reasons for the above -- those have been thoroughly laid out in this thread already.

 

Will I make my caches PMO? I don't think so. I only have 15 hides. Of those, 4 are non-traditional, and 10 are sufficiently terrain-difficult that I'm not concerned about beginner misconceptions (heck, I'd welcome more visits). That leaves one, and it's in a great family-friendly location, so it's the last one I'd want to restrict. Of course, I reach this conclusion based on my own profile of hides, and I can easily see why others would reach different conclusions.

 

Edward

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Oh yeah, they'll never see a disclaimer if they never visit the web site.

 

I'm sure there's a teeny disclaimer on the toy GPS for the 4-year-olds to ignore.

 

Can Groundspeak claim a 4-year-old legally "accepted" a disclaimer by seeing it flash by?

 

That disclaimer is questionable. In many places you can not give up your right to sue. No, I am not a lawyer, but this has been pointed out to me by lawyers before.

 

I doubt that there is anyplace that a four year old can be held to any disclaimer of any type.

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That is a rather naive statement. I know several "traditonals" that are micros with coordinates in the middle of the road. The cache in in the the huge culvert under your feet. Should be interesting with Jr. tries to find them.

 

Actually (and I am the LAST person that you will see defending this move!) I have it on pretty good authority (and will post that authority as soon as I can) that the caches were vetted to be family and kid-friendly prior to giving them out to the Playskool GPS folks. Your particular situation is probably not going to occur.

 

On the other hand... that points towards even more work/time/money spent by the PTB getting this ready.

 

How would they vet it???? There is nothing on the cache page description telling you where it is. The only indication is terrain rating and the fact that you zero out to a white line on a four lane street.

 

Given the wide variation in how CO's rate their caches, any automated process would be flawed in my opinion.

 

I agree with your comments about work/time/money... All 3 of which could have been better spent on improving the service being delivered to their existing customer base.....a base that keeps them in business.

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I like it. It's the perfect tool for educating and introducing groups of people into geocaching. Youth groups, Church groups, Scouts, Schools.

 

Everyone has the same device with the same data and there are only two buttons. If any of you have ever taught a group of newbies to geocache, you'll appreciate my point.

 

As for caches being Wrastro'd (muggled)... It's happens every year right after Christmas, it happened again today and it's a sure bet it'll happen tomorrow. In most cases, caches shouldn't live forever anyways.

 

Another reason I like it is that it's geocaching specific through and through. It's the first GPS device that I'm aware of that was made for geocachers by geocachers.

 

If my REI has one in stock, I'll pick one up tomorrow and give you a hands on review.

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If my REI has one in stock, I'll pick one up tomorrow and give you a hands on review.

If you do, it might help to reduce the amount of speculation in here if you could let us know what kind of documentation accompanies the unit. If there's a nicely printed reference card explaining some of the basics of the game, it might reassure a few people. I have a hard time imagining that Groundspeak has not, as a minimum, got some wording in there encouraging people to sign up for the site :unsure:

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I like it. It's the perfect tool for educating and introducing groups of people into geocaching. Youth groups, Church groups, Scouts, Schools.

 

I can see your point there, but I am not one of those that thinks that teaching the world to cache will bring peace and harmony. I personally do not WANT to see people come into caching that don't have the willingness to go out and learn it on their own.

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That right. AND THIS IS NOTHING NEW. Traditionals, by definitions, are findable by having only the coordinates. If there's information on the cache page that you consider to be critical that the cacher know, then you should have marked your cache as Mystery/Unknown.

 

A lot of people will, especially when traveling, load up their GPS with just Traditionals, because they can do impromptu caching without having to refer to the cache page.

That is a rather naive statement. I know several "traditonals" that are micros with coordinates in the middle of the road. The cache in in the the huge culvert under your feet. Should be interesting with Jr. tries to find them.
I've found the 'underground' caches. They did not require anything from the description to make the find. In fact, I can't think of any of them having a description that would clue anyone into the fact that the cache was where it was.
If there's information on the cache page that you consider to be critical that the cacher know, then you should have marked your cache as Mystery/Unknown.
Huh?!? :laughing: That's the first time I've ever heard of that! So, my regular cache near (but not in) a cemetery, because is says, "There is no need to enter the cemetery" should be a Mystery/Unknown cache?

 

My regular cache that says "Even if your GPS points you toward the RR tracks, there is NO need to go near them!" should be a Mystery/Puzzle cache?

 

Any cache that says "The cache is on private property with permisson" should be a Mystery/Puzzle cache?

 

I could continue, but I won't bother. I think I've made my point.

Not so much. In fact, none of your examples were necessary to find the cache. Edited by sbell111
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... None of this means I can like the current geomate. Failure to force updates and encourage online logging is a serious error in my view.

 

The update kit should have shipped with original, with cost included. And that means cost of updates for the lifetime of the unit.

I agree, but I can understand why it wasn't. Including the update kit would have pushed the price too close to the little yellow unit. I'm certain that the plan is to set the hook and then reel them in with the update kit and premium membership.
Registration on gc.com should have been required for the unit to locate caches.
I don't know about that. For the first couple of years that I played, there was no need to sign in to get coords. It didn't cause undo harm, in my opinion.
Visiting a geomate page on gc.com should have been required to download the updates; this page would encourage online logging. (Of course we cannot, and do not want to, require online logging.)
They already are encouraging online logging. Plus, as you mention, it's not required and many well known cachers don't log online. Some geocachers failing to log online has not been the downfall of the game.
A PM account should have been required to make PMO caches visible.
A PM account probably is necessary for this. Who said it wasn't?
An update within a certain time limit (perhaps two weeks or a month) should have been required; caches should become invisible without updates.
Apparently, the caches were filtered carefully to limit the number of them that will 'go bad' over the short term.
I like it. It's the perfect tool for educating and introducing groups of people into geocaching. Youth groups, Church groups, Scouts, Schools.
I can see your point there, but I am not one of those that thinks that teaching the world to cache will bring peace and harmony. I personally do not WANT to see people come into caching that don't have the willingness to go out and learn it on their own.
No one is shoving GPSrs in people's hands and forcing them to play the game. People will be buying the unit for the express purpose of playing the game. That is already more of a commitment than a large chunk of the current players made when they started out. Edited by sbell111
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One aspect of this that I don't particularly care for... for years (and yes, I mean YEARS) we've been asking for the option of having archived caches included in pocket queries. And the answer has always been no, you're supposed to come back to the web site to get fresh data. You're not supposed to keep an offline database. Same thing when asked if the 500 cache limit on pocket queries could be raised, or if we could run more than 5 per day. Just get fresh data a little at a time.

 

Yet this new GPS comes loaded with 500 pocket queries worth of stale data. (That's 100 days worth of PQ's to us paying members, BTW). So on one hand those of us that support the site by paying premium memberships and hiding caches are being told no, but the same reasons our requests are denied apparently don't matter in the case of the geomate?

 

Seems to be a lot of double standards involved with this thing.

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That right. AND THIS IS NOTHING NEW. Traditionals, by definitions, are findable by having only the coordinates. If there's information on the cache page that you consider to be critical that the cacher know, then you should have marked your cache as Mystery/Unknown.

 

You know better than that. Just because a cache is listed as a traditional doesn't mean there's no important info included in the cache page. What you're suggesting is not, and has never been, part of the guidelines.

 

Up until now, cachers have always been given the option of reading the cache page -- whether they did or not was up to them, but they have that choice because they have access to the information. With the new Geocaching Idiot Boxes they don't have the option -- the data isn't there. And it's my understanding they don't even need an account on geocaching.com to use the device, so they may not even have access to the cache writeups. I doubt they even get the child waypoints that might be posted on a cache page -- which are usually there for a good reason.

 

I don't view a lot of newbie cachers "caching blind" as being a good way to introduce someone to the hobby.

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Huh?!? :laughing: That's the first time I've ever heard of that! So, my regular cache near (but not in) a cemetery, because is says, "There is no need to enter the cemetery" should be a Mystery/Unknown cache?

 

My regular cache that says "Even if your GPS points you toward the RR tracks, there is NO need to go near them!" should be a Mystery/Puzzle cache?

 

Any cache that says "The cache is on private property with permisson" should be a Mystery/Puzzle cache?

 

I could continue, but I won't bother. I think I've made my point.

Not so much. In fact, none of your examples were necessary to find the cache.

 

You said, "If there's information on the cache page that you consider to be critical that the cacher know, then you should have marked your cache as Mystery/Unknown.", not "neccessary to find the cache". That is what I was referring to.

Edited by knowschad
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I'd be interested in what criteria was used to select the caches included with this thing. How did they select them? What did they use to eliminate caches from the list?

 

A local cacher interviewed the company and the creator of the GeoMate Jr GPS for a podcast that he publishes. He says that his podcast should be published on Sunday or Monday. Here's a link to the Twin Cities GeoCaching PodCast site.

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Meh. I'll postpone declarations of the breaking of the seventh seal until I see actual examples of GeoMate enabled zombies ripping up the countryside with bucketfuls of shenanigans.

 

I have a feeling this will go over more like Windows ME and ET for the Atari.

 

I am a little concerned for trackables being picked up and never returned, but that's the risk you take anytime you release bugs and coins.

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Huh?!? :laughing: That's the first time I've ever heard of that! So, my regular cache near (but not in) a cemetery, because is says, "There is no need to enter the cemetery" should be a Mystery/Unknown cache?

 

My regular cache that says "Even if your GPS points you toward the RR tracks, there is NO need to go near them!" should be a Mystery/Puzzle cache?

 

Any cache that says "The cache is on private property with permisson" should be a Mystery/Puzzle cache?

 

I could continue, but I won't bother. I think I've made my point.

Not so much. In fact, none of your examples were necessary to find the cache.
You said, "If there's information on the cache page that you consider to be critical that the cacher know, then you should have marked your cache as Mystery/Unknown.", not "neccessary to find the cache". That is what I was referring to.
Huh? I have never said anything like that.
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... Yet this new GPS comes loaded with 500 pocket queries worth of stale data. (That's 100 days worth of PQ's to us paying members, BTW). So on one hand those of us that support the site by paying premium memberships and hiding caches are being told no, but the same reasons our requests are denied apparently don't matter in the case of the geomate?

 

Seems to be a lot of double standards involved with this thing.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

First, the 250k file is not customized by user or location. TPTB need only run one query to get the cache information for every geomate sold or updated. I presume that they would run this query as often as once per day during a period when they had excess computing capacity (my money is on 11:55pm, every night. It would also run with the lowest priority, since it wouldn't matter at all if the data sent out for updates was one day old.

 

Second, this file of 250,000 caches is nothing like our PQs. The file only has a few data components, ID, coords, terrain, difficulty, size. Also, since it isn't customized to the owner, the 250k caches are a mere subset of all the caches in the US. They are quite unlike the caches that would appear in the PQs that any of us would pull. I would bet that of the 1300 or so caches in my local area that I currently have on my GPSr, no more than 150 or so would be preloaded on the geomate, and I prefer traditional caches. Therefore, for me, using this unit would be the equivalent of going from being able to pull fully custom PQs of 2500 caches per day to getting one non-custom pull of 150 caches.

Edited by sbell111
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I don't understand why people seem so upset? I think it's a great idea, and I know my kids will enjoy it because it looks easy for them to understand, plus I won't freak out if they drop it:)

 

For years geocachers have been trying to beg burrow, buy, cry, and complain Groundspeak into making it easier to get larger amounts of cache data quicker. Lots of different ways, larger PQ size, premade whole state or city PQ, fee bases PQs, etc, but it was always a big old "NO, we don't encourage offline databases, the data would get outdated". Yet now exactly that type of thing is being marketed :laughing:

 

Beyound that, I personally wonder if this thing will encourage people to do stupid things like let their kids go geocaching alone.... if your kids are responsible enough they don't need your supervision, then I'd say buy them a regular low end unit (or your 'back unit). Of course I'm probably not the target market this is trying to reach so what I think doesn't really matter.

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I have never said anything like that.

 

Sorry, you're right. It was Prime Suspect that said that. Nevertheless, "If there's information on the cache page that you consider to be critical that the cacher know, then you should have marked your cache as Mystery/Unknown." is what my reply was responding to.

Edited by knowschad
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.... this file of 250,000 caches is nothing like our PQs. The file only has a few data components, ID, coords, terrain, difficulty, size. Also, since it isn't customized to the owner, the 250k caches are a mere subset of all the caches in the US. They are quite unlike the caches that would appear in the PQs that any of us would pull. I would bet that of the 1300 or so caches in my local area that I currently have on my GPSr, no more than 150 or so would be preloaded on the geomate, and I prefer traditional caches. Therefore, for me, using this unit would be the equivalent of going from being able to pull fully custom PQs of 2500 caches per day to getting one non-custom pull of 150 caches.

True enough but the data will be stale quickly and that IS a concern - I will probably have to move one of my older tradtional ammocan caches due to a new property owner in the next few weeks - I'll bet that cache is among the 250K - and the new guy's gonna be mad if the little deal we are working on gets violated due to old stale data.

 

I applaud the concept and the target audience but don't think some angles are well conceived.

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One aspect of this that I don't particularly care for... for years (and yes, I mean YEARS) we've been asking [...]Yet this new GPS comes loaded with 500 pocket queries worth of [...]
Think of it as the first step in addressing the things we've been asking for. As I pointed out in a previous post, extending the methods used for the geomate.jr could lead to getting what you want without unnecessary server load at gc.com. For example, including archived caches without including them in every future PQ forever would require maintaining a history of all PQs generated, a major load, but with the geomate system, only a single "delete cache" update has to be sent.

 

PQs are just a tool. Think in terms of your goals, and whether a change in the tools would serve you better than the current tools.

 

Higher end GPSrs generally have updatable firmware. The concept of keeping all caches in a geographic area loaded could be readily extended to other units. Additional changes would be needed, but this could be a first step. I have no inside information, but this idea is certainly compatible with what has been released.

For the first couple of years that I played, there was no need to sign in to get coords. It didn't cause undo harm, in my opinion.
You did, however, have to visit the web page -- maybe even actually display the web page. With the geomate.jr, you don't even have to know what the World Wide Web is. Even that would be OK if there were another way of logging online -- for example, directly from the unit via a free wireless link (shades of the Kindle). My worry is that this setup will result in a lot less feedback from finders to hiders.
They already are encouraging online logging.
If indeed they do this adequately, then I'm fine with it, whether they do it my way or some other way. I have my doubts that anything which does not require a visit to the web site in order to find caches will be as good as the current system in this respect -- and we all know that feedback is often lacking even now.
A PM account should have been required to make PMO caches visible.
A PM account probably is necessary for this. Who said it wasn't?
It was stated earlier in this thread that PMO caches are preloaded on the geomate.jr. Since a web contact is not required before seeking, clearly the buyer of the unit has the coordinates of the PMO caches which are preloaded. They won't be able to log finds (or even notes IIRC) without a PM account, but as I understand it the main reason some hiders make caches PMO is in the hope of protecting them from inexperienced (or occasionally malicious) seekers, rather than to make logging finds a PM privilege. Leaving the coordinates open to non-PMs alters this ability. I'm not a fan of PMO caches, but I think changing the existing rules with no warning is a bad idea.

 

Edward

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It was stated earlier in this thread that PMO caches are preloaded on the geomate.jr.

That's not true, is it? Keystone (I think) pointed out that if you make your (U.S.) caches PMO now, it's too late to affect what's already included in the 250k preloaded on the Geomate. But I don't think anyone has definitively stated that existing PMO caches are included in the 250k. It would be really nice if someone in the know would answer that question; the silence isn't very reassuring. IF PMO caches are included, some folks may take up pitchforks and such.

 

I also kind of object to various people calling this thing a "POS." I don't mind the terminology, but I don't think we know that term really applies to the Geomate. Actually, the concept of a very low cost, but high-sensitivity, GPSr that is simple to use and can hold a large number of caches is pretty intriguing. If the update add-on (which shouldn't be) turns out to be functional (allowing updates that aren't themselves stale, and allowing a degree of flexibility as far as what is included), this could be a nice kid or grandparent unit - but definitely only in concert with someone/something that has ready access to full cache descriptions and some connection to "the geocaching community" - i.e., at least an account. It's that one piece - selling a boatload of coordinates without the other necessary info - that bothers me about the implementation. But the tech itself might be pretty darn cool.

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Several things I am considering at the moment. Listen up Groundspeak.

 

1) Refraining from placing any new caches at all until I have more information on this device and what it uses for its filters.

 

2) Anticipating listing all future caches as Premium Members Only.

 

3) Archiving, moving, increasing the difficulty and relisting all existing caches I own (I paid for them, you only list them) and make them Premium Members Only.

 

4) Do all the above until the 'ohhhh ahhh' factor of this 'toy' has waned and yanked from the market.

 

Yes we all take a chance when we release trackables. Even though I pay for fire insurance I don't let the kids build campfires in the living room either. You can put all the disclaimers in the world on this unit, its data, and whatnot. The fact remains all it takes is one good lawyer to ruin everyone's day and lives. I don't want to take that chance. From my observations the bad certainly outweighs the good in this device.

 

As for PMOing any existing caches I have I could give a rip about the geomate device users convenience in logging the find. The 'its for the children' justification isn't going to float with me this time around.

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It was stated earlier in this thread that PMO caches are preloaded on the geomate.jr.

That's not true, is it? Keystone (I think) pointed out that if you make your (U.S.) caches PMO now, it's too late to affect what's already included in the 250k preloaded on the Geomate. But I don't think anyone has definitively stated that existing PMO caches are included in the 250k. It would be really nice if someone in the know would answer that question; the silence isn't very reassuring. IF PMO caches are included, some folks may take up pitchforks and such.

 

Groundspeak makes decisions that are good for Groundspeak, as any business does. Selling PM listings to anyone who does not have a PM account is probably not happening.... Is it? Sure would be nice to know, but without TPTB stating that they are I don't believe it.

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I don't view a lot of newbie cachers "caching blind" as being a good way to introduce someone to the hobby.

 

Absolutely! This thing is definitely bad for geocaching because its use by non-cachers (people who do not regularly access the geocaching website) potentially compromises the integrity of the cache containers and their hiding spots. Furthermore, it also can cause a lot of perfectly good caches with posted parking coords, waypoints for the trailhead that enable you to bypass private property, and information about safety and hazards (poison ivy, anyone?) to become problematic as naive and inexperienced pseudo-cachers traipse willy-nilly around trying to get that little counter down to zero. And frankly, I think it poses a threat to the safety of its users since they do not have access to the cache attributes or description. For example, will traditional caches that require boats or climbing gear be listed with the upgrade? It would appear so...this is a direct quote from the geomate.jr website under the heading "update kit":

 

What it means to have an update kit

Always have the latest and greatest nation- wide cache list.

Get every possible cache for any given region.

Vacationing in Germany? Then get the cache list for Germany, or England, or Australia...

 

While I think this type of device has potential to be a fun thing for families, it needs to be revamped to include mandatory (basic) membership at gc.com!

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One aspect of this that I don't particularly care for... for years (and yes, I mean YEARS) we've been asking [...]Yet this new GPS comes loaded with 500 pocket queries worth of [...]
Think of it as the first step in addressing the things we've been asking for. As I pointed out in a previous post, extending the methods used for the geomate.jr could lead to getting what you want without unnecessary server load at gc.com. For example, including archived caches without including them in every future PQ forever would require maintaining a history of all PQs generated, a major load, but with the geomate system, only a single "delete cache" update has to be sent.

 

PQs are just a tool. Think in terms of your goals, and whether a change in the tools would serve you better than the current tools.

 

Higher end GPSrs generally have updatable firmware. The concept of keeping all caches in a geographic area loaded could be readily extended to other units. Additional changes would be needed, but this could be a first step. I have no inside information, but this idea is certainly compatible with what has been released.

I suspect that the geomate updates will work sort of like Garmin's POIs. The 250k update will completely overwrite the caches in the unit, with the exception of a separate file of 'found' cache IDs that the unit will use to compare against the file.
For the first couple of years that I played, there was no need to sign in to get coords. It didn't cause undo harm, in my opinion.
You did, however, have to visit the web page -- maybe even actually display the web page. With the geomate.jr, you don't even have to know what the World Wide Web is. Even that would be OK if there were another way of logging online -- for example, directly from the unit via a free wireless link (shades of the Kindle). My worry is that this setup will result in a lot less feedback from finders to hiders.
Not really. They will get at least as much feadback as they get now, no matter how you look at it.
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Several things I am considering at the moment. Listen up Groundspeak.

 

1) Refraining from placing any new caches at all until I have more information on this device and what it uses for its filters.

 

2) Anticipating listing all future caches as Premium Members Only.

 

3) Archiving, moving, increasing the difficulty and relisting all existing caches I own (I paid for them, you only list them) and make them Premium Members Only.

 

4) Do all the above until the 'ohhhh ahhh' factor of this 'toy' has waned and yanked from the market.

 

Yes we all take a chance when we release trackables. Even though I pay for fire insurance I don't let the kids build campfires in the living room either. You can put all the disclaimers in the world on this unit, its data, and whatnot. The fact remains all it takes is one good lawyer to ruin everyone's day and lives. I don't want to take that chance. From my observations the bad certainly outweighs the good in this device.

 

As for PMOing any existing caches I have I could give a rip about the geomate device users convenience in logging the find. The 'its for the children' justification isn't going to float with me this time around.

Go for it, but I rather doubt that the success of this tiem (or the GC.com website) hinges on your participation.
I don't view a lot of newbie cachers "caching blind" as being a good way to introduce someone to the hobby.
Absolutely! This thing is definitely bad for geocaching because its use by non-cachers (people who do not regularly access the geocaching website) potentially compromises the integrity of the cache containers and their hiding spots.
Ummm, these people would be geocachers, by definition.
Furthermore, it also can cause a lot of perfectly good caches with posted parking coords, waypoints for the trailhead that enable you to bypass private property, and information about safety and hazards (poison ivy, anyone?) to become problematic as naive and inexperienced pseudo-cachers traipse willy-nilly around trying to get that little counter down to zero. And frankly, I think it poses a threat to the safety of its users since they do not have access to the cache attributes or description. For example, will traditional caches that require boats or climbing gear be listed with the upgrade? It would appear so...this is a direct quote from the geomate.jr website under the heading "update kit":
I'm pretty sure that most people don't pay much attention to additional waypoints for traditional caches. Also, you know who else doesn't get attributes in their downloads? Everybody.
What it means to have an update kit

Always have the latest and greatest nation- wide cache list.

Get every possible cache for any given region.

Vacationing in Germany? Then get the cache list for Germany, or England, or Australia...

I guess that I'm missing your point. When they say 'every cache', they don't mean 'every cache'. They mean every traditional cache that meets their search criteria (up to 250k caches). Edited by sbell111
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What it means to have an update kit

Always have the latest and greatest nation- wide cache list.

Get every possible cache for any given region.

Vacationing in Germany? Then get the cache list for Germany, or England, or Australia...

I guess that I'm missing your point. When they say 'every cache', they don't mean 'every cache'. They mean every traditional cache that meets their search criteria (up to 250k caches).

 

This is from the geomate.jr website (FAQ section):

 

FAQs

This little collection of Frequently Asked Questions just might contain the answer you’re looking for...

 

Does the Geomate.jr contain ALL possible geocaches?

To make sure that your first geocaching adventure is the best possible, we’ve actually taken out geocaches that haven’t been found for awhile or are too difficult to find. The Geomate.jr also only supports ‘traditional’ geocaches so it doesn’t include mystery, multi, or puzzle caches, and only supports US caches (for now). But don’t worry, the 250,000 geocaches that the Geomate.jr ships with should keep you busy for awhile...

 

If I use the Update Kit, do I get ALL geocaches then?

Yep, all traditional geocaches anyway. You can even get geocaches for other countries other than the US!

 

I interpret the highlighted section ("all traditional geocaches") to mean, well, ALL TRADITIONAL GEOCACHES, including those with 5/5 D/T combos.

 

Here's the link: geomate.jr FAQ

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Several things I am considering at the moment. Listen up Groundspeak...

:laughing::lol:B) That may be the funniest thing I have read in a while! What if they don't? :D

 

As it appears I'm not the only one that is upset about this I doubt that I would be the only one that would make choices that would affect this product. Go ahead and dismiss it or us but when the closest cache is several counties away it does take away from the convenience aspect of the device. Regardless of how large a business gets it should remember the people that got it where it is. When they don't and get greedy people start walking. No one ever thought Firefox would put so much as a dent in IE's browser use but it has. So much that Microsoft has taken notice. Get enough people mad about this, and the potential is there, don't be shocked when you start seeing caches pulled by the owners or Premium Members versions increasing. Provided they are not hocking the coords for the PM caches.

 

True one person will not make a hill of beans but keep pushing and enough people will go elsewhere to make a difference. I know I for one have grown tired of the one shot wonders walking off with entire caches (got an email from a finder about what to do with it once they got it home), travel items and such. We all take the chance when we put something out but Groundspeak is opening the floodgates to people that don't make any real investment or investigation into what the hobby is about. They are dumbing it down to nothing more than hide and seek. You may sleep at night looking forward to unnecessary maintenance trips but I sure as toothpicks do not.

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Per the user manual.... Interesting since it is supposed to 'family friendly.' Take the fam out for a 5/5 anyone? Here JR. Happy Birthday.... now go find these things. Make sure if you find a rock wall you pull emm out they may be hidden in there.

 

This is the “Find Difficulty” rating; it tells you how hard it will be

find this geocache. It is out of “5” with 5 being the hardest.

 

This is the arrow pointing in the direction of the geocache. If

you are not walking, this arrow will not be available.

 

This is the closeness order of the geocache. In this example,

the currently selected geocaching is the “1st” closest to your

location. If the geocache was the 2nd closest, this would be a 2.

 

And this is the size of the cache. Ranging between 1 and 4 with

a 1 being a very small “micro‐cache” which could be as small as

your thumbnail and a 4 being as big as a bucket!

 

This is the “Terrain Difficulty” rating. Out of “5” with 5 being

the hardest, this gives you an indication of the type of terrain

you need to cover to get to the geocache.

 

Hunting Geocaches

Finding geocaches can be tricky. But it’s half the fun! The GPS receiver, in this

case, your Geomate.jr will only get you close to the location of the geocache.

By close, we mean something like 10 feet or so. The rest is up to you! You need

to look around and find the hidden geocache.

 

They can be hidden almost anywhere! Common hiding places and tricks

include:

• In or behind bushes

• Inside or under logs

• Magnetically attached to the back of street signs

• Underneath park benches

• Between rocks or small caves

• In gaps in rock walls
***Gee How many debates has this one spurred?
:laughing:

So you have to look hard and don’t give up too easily. Keep in mind that there is

a chance that the geocache that you are looking for just may not be there

anymore. It doesn’t happen often, but they can disappear.

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Per the user manual.... Interesting since it is supposed to 'family friendly.' Take the fam out for a 5/5 anyone? Here JR. Happy Birthday.... now go find these things. Make sure if you find a rock wall you pull emm out they may be hidden in there.

 

This is the “Find Difficulty” rating; it tells you how hard it will be

find this geocache. It is out of “5” with 5 being the hardest.

 

This is the arrow pointing in the direction of the geocache. If

you are not walking, this arrow will not be available.

 

This is the closeness order of the geocache. In this example,

the currently selected geocaching is the “1st” closest to your

location. If the geocache was the 2nd closest, this would be a 2.

 

And this is the size of the cache. Ranging between 1 and 4 with

a 1 being a very small “micro‐cache” which could be as small as

your thumbnail and a 4 being as big as a bucket!

 

This is the “Terrain Difficulty” rating. Out of “5” with 5 being

the hardest, this gives you an indication of the type of terrain

you need to cover to get to the geocache.

 

Hunting Geocaches

Finding geocaches can be tricky. But it’s half the fun! The GPS receiver, in this

case, your Geomate.jr will only get you close to the location of the geocache.

By close, we mean something like 10 feet or so. The rest is up to you! You need

to look around and find the hidden geocache.

 

They can be hidden almost anywhere! Common hiding places and tricks

include:

• In or behind bushes

• Inside or under logs

• Magnetically attached to the back of street signs

• Underneath park benches

• Between rocks or small caves

• In gaps in rock walls
***Gee How many debates has this one spurred?
:laughing:

So you have to look hard and don’t give up too easily. Keep in mind that there is

a chance that the geocache that you are looking for just may not be there

anymore. It doesn’t happen often, but they can disappear.

 

Seriously?!? That's from the user's manual for the PlaySkool GPS? I sure hope the parents have GC accounts to make up for what's missing in that short bit.

 

Did you buy one, or just stop by and have a look?

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Those are direct quotes from the dowloadable pdf version of the user manual:

 

User Manual

 

Thanks! I didn't realize they had that online.

 

Marketed towards kids, huh?

Vehicular UseDo not use the Geomate.jr while driving.

:laughing:

 

I enjoyed page #2. The lawyers wrote that page.

 

Question:What is a cache container?"

They are typically a clear plastic container the size of your hand.

Ahhhh.... OK. If you say so.

 

For those that don't want to read the entire thing... you've already seen everything that does not deal with using the device. That's their introduction to geocaching, folks.

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Second, this file of 250,000 caches is nothing like our PQs. The file only has a few data components, ID, coords, terrain, difficulty, size. Also, since it isn't customized to the owner, the 250k caches are a mere subset of all the caches in the US. They are quite unlike the caches that would appear in the PQs that any of us would pull. I would bet that of the 1300 or so caches in my local area that I currently have on my GPSr, no more than 150 or so would be preloaded on the geomate, and I prefer traditional caches. Therefore, for me, using this unit would be the equivalent of going from being able to pull fully custom PQs of 2500 caches per day to getting one non-custom pull of 150 caches.

 

I'm in... Wasn't going to be, but I've just read through the whole thread, and pretty much agree with everything negative about the Geomate Jr. Not the unit itself, but the concept. (I couldn't have wasted all that time and not have my say)...

 

I've been caching for just over 2 years now. A fair weather cacher to say the least, and am pretty proud of my 260 finds. My GPS holds 1000 + waypoints. That's about, let's see, 25% capacity. My PQ's are based on a 50KM radius from my home coords. I can update this daily if I so wish, and change filters and get PQ's for Australia, or Germany or wherever, if I so wish, I can even get caches along a route, if I so wish... because I'm a Premium Member :lol: and frequently log onto geocaching.com. I'm no geometrician (is that a word?), but my donut hole is at least 3 km big, and probably 80% of my finds have been within 50KM from home. Sure the odd New Cache comes up every week, but that is inevitable with my weekly PQ. I also have a PalmZirosaurus which allows me to decrypt the hint if I get to GZ and need a little nudge in the right direction.

 

USA is about 4000KM wide and 2500KM high. With all the filters mentioned, I wonder about the spread and density of the "preloaded" caches.

 

Why would I need 250,000 caches across USA??? Even at $69.99, that's a heck of a lot of money per cache find !

 

The marketing seems to be aimed at children, (well that's what the videos and pictures depict). "Here Junior, get up from the TV and go do some "cashing".... Mommy's busy."

 

This GeoMate has an update available (to purchase, if you're still interested in this geocaching thing) in June 2009. So you'll get what? Another cache to do until the next update is available (to purchase, if you're still interested in this geocaching thing). Then...what ??

 

If this is being used as an "Entry Level" marketing tool to encourage new cachers to the community, it needs to be renamed to GeoDotCom because it just won't last.

 

Fortunately, I'm not affected yet, and hopefully never will be... I'm in Canada, so we won't be seeing the Geomates because we can't use them here... Ahh Gee! :laughing:

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