Wonder if Groundspeak knows about this

[+Geomate.jr]

Warren,

 

Yes, welcome to the flames.

 

Could you explain how the update process works? In particular, is it a complete replacement of the database, or is it a smart update?

 

I think you made a major mistake in not consulting a larger body of experienced cachers prior to product launch. Do you have any way of updating the geomate after it's shipped?

 

You should have included the "update kit" in every box. Are you saying it's anything more than a cheap USB cable? Out of date cache information is probably the biggest concern expressed here.

 

And the geomate should have had at least an on-screen warning of the need for updates if the updates haven't been installed in, say, the past two weeks.

 

(To briansnat: yes, AOL is now connected to the Internet. Death of Usenet predicted. Film at 11.)

 

Edward

 

Hi Edward

 

Pleased to meet you as well and thanks for the question.

 

With the Update Kit you will be able to refresh the default filtered list of approximately 250,000 geocaches. You will also be able to select unfiltered regions and also lists for other countries. The files will be renewed daily and there will be no restriction on quantity or frequency of updates. You can update as often and as many times you want with no additional service charge or subscription. I'm not sure what you mean by 'smart update'.

 

Our objective was to provide a product that is as affordable as possible so every member of a family can each have one and enjoy geocaching together - kids love getting involved and doing rather than watching. To try to do this, we consciously moved the cost of the update capability out of the device and into the Update Kit (no, it's not just a USB cable). In doing so, a family can now have many affordable devices and only one update kit, rather than having a number of more expensive units that has the update capability built in. Personally, I would hate having to pay for the toaster every time I bought a loaf of bread to make toast - I only need one toaster...

 

As we don't restrict one device to one update kit, all you need is access to an update kit - either in the house, at your neighbors, or at the store where you bought your Geomate.jr...

 

As for the warning, we do actually display the date the database was loaded upon start up.

 

Oh, and I hope you'll be pleased to learn that during the development of the Geomate.jr we worked very closely with many members of the geocaching community. (Ourselves as geocachers included).

 

I hope this has answered your questions!

 

Cheers

 

Warren

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

My name's Warren, I'm a Pisces and I like hiking, camping, scuba diving, sailing, and geocaching. I'm also from Apisphere and I'm happy to answer any questions anyone may have.

 

Glad to see you here. I'm been testing out my 'Mate for the past week and there's a lot I like about it. My question is regarding the name itself.

 

In my aging mind, Geomate jr. presupposes there is a Geomate Sr. Does Apisphere have a full featured (mapping, more cache data etc) Geocaching specific gps in development?

 

Also, when should we start looking for the update kit at REI or Groundspeak.com?

Where does everyong get the idea that the "Jr" indicates that there is a "Sr". I se it as indicating that it's aimed at Kids as opposed to Adults. When you pass a Mini dealer, do you ask them when they will have the Maxi's out??

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

Hi warren,

I guess my two biggest concerns are the chances of Caches and Trackables being mistaken as things that are just to be kept by the finders. It soulds like you're working on ways to address educating your customers on the practices and ethics of Caching. Maybe one way to Educate them on trackables would be to design a Promotional Geocoin (with info on Trackables) that could be a bonus gift in the second round of packaging? It's been done by some other companies. Your customers will have a greater incentive to learn about these things when they own one.

[+sTeamTraen]

Wouldn't it be cool if the Geomate.jr retail packaging contained an unactivated Travel Bug dog tag?

 

It could come with a little leaflet sending people to Geocaching.com where they could create an account, activate the TB, and learn /a/ more about the game and /b/ that TBs are not swag.

 

I appreciate that there is probably quite a bit of price sensitivity on the unit, but I'm sure Groundspeak could make "nice price for you, my friend Mr Apisphere".

[+redsox_mark]

I'm sorry that my response did not satisfy your concerns. I am more than willing to listen to suggestions on how better we can protect the integrity and longevity of the sport that we all enjoy. I welcome the opportunity to talk with you directly and learn from your experience. Please feel free to contact me at any time. Contact details can be found on www.mygeomate.com

 

Ideally, somehow require that the user registers on geocaching.com. But as the product is already out, and bypassing the need to go online seems one of the features of the unit, I can't see that happening.

 

So the next best thing would be to encourage registering. For example, when a cache is marked on the unit as found, display text saying "Congratulations! Now log your finding on geocaching.com".

 

Or perhaps some financial incentive; get a discount on the upgrade kit if you register.

 

And the documentation, as suggested by others, should include basic information on things like how to handle trackables. Including the important fact that they should not pick them up unless they plan to register. Make it as clear and concise as possible. It may not get read by everyone, but it can help.

[+redsox_mark]

Wouldn't it be cool if the Geomate.jr retail packaging contained an unactivated Travel Bug dog tag?

 

It could come with a little leaflet sending people to Geocaching.com where they could create an account, activate the TB, and learn /a/ more about the game and /b/ that TBs are not swag.

 

I appreciate that there is probably quite a bit of price sensitivity on the unit, but I'm sure Groundspeak could make "nice price for you, my friend Mr Apisphere".

 

Great idea!

[Trinity's Crew]

Your concern about the integrity of the activity and the community is very valid and it is something that is very important to us as well. We are currently developing more material to address ethics, set expectations, and to educate.

How many have already been sold, (or at least packaged ready for shipment). A little late to be developing the material, I'd say.

 

Bingo! If there was any real concern the material on ethics and education would have been developed and included with the first release. Heck, the material already is developed. All you had to do was copy it or paraphrase it.

 

I'm a little disappointed GS didn't insist on this prior to the release. Yeah, I kow it's not their product but obviously they're involved.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Trinity's Crew

[+sbell111]

I bought my GPS through Amazon. But I'm calling Garmin, not Amazon, when I've got a question.

True, but did you get a 250K PQ from Amazon?

Since the update is provided by Apisphere, not Groundspeak, your analogy doesn't work. If I have a question regarding maps that were preloaded on my Venture Cx or that I downloaded from Garmin, I should contact Garmin, not Amazon.

How many have already been sold, (or at least packaged ready for shipment). A little late to be developing the material, I'd say. ...

Arguing about what has already been done is not productive. Suggestions to improve future offerings would be more useful to your cause.

Having a GPS, but needing to register with GS so I could use it to geocache, is what drove me to geocaching.com ...

Tons of us started playing the game when all the info was available without creating an accout. The game wasn't destroyed by this.

Could you explain how the update process works? In particular, is it a complete replacement of the database, or is it a smart update? ...

With the Update Kit you will be able to refresh the default filtered list of approximately 250,000 geocaches. You will also be able to select unfiltered regions and also lists for other countries. The files will be renewed daily and there will be no restriction on quantity or frequency of updates. You can update as often and as many times you want with no additional service charge or subscription. I'm not sure what you mean by 'smart update'. ...

Will the unit flag those caches that have already been found (or otherwise ignore them)? I would hate for those caches to keep showing up on my 'nearest 20'.

[+sbell111]

Your concern about the integrity of the activity and the community is very valid and it is something that is very important to us as well. We are currently developing more material to address ethics, set expectations, and to educate.

How many have already been sold, (or at least packaged ready for shipment). A little late to be developing the material, I'd say.

Bingo! If there was any real concern the material on ethics and education would have been developed and included with the first release. Heck, the material already is developed. All you had to do was copy it or paraphrase it.

 

I'm a little disappointed GS didn't insist on this prior to the release. Yeah, I kow it's not their product but obviously they're involved.

It's clear that you wish to argue just to argue, but still it should be remembered that it is very typical for products to be tweaked after their initial roll out. The need to add a piece of documentation to future units is really no big deal.

 

It is silly to argue about whether this documentation should have been in the initial offering when the company admits that it would have been better if it was. The fact is, it wasn't included initially because they didn't realize how important it was to some people. Oh well...

Edited May 22, 2009 by sbell111

[+solo63137]

It's clear that you wish to argue just to argue, but still it should be remembered that it is very typical for products to be tweaked after their initial roll out. The need to add a piece of documentation to future units is really no big deal.

 

It is silly to argue about whether this documentation should have been in the initial offering when the company admits that it would have been better if it was. The fact is, it wasn't included initially because they didn't realize how important it was to some people. Oh well...

 

I agree... Whats done is done...

 

How many times and ways can the same couple of Jabs be stated... I guess I could go back re-read this thread and count them...

 

I did like the idea someone had of the Travel Bug or Travel Coin comming with Geomate if it would not drive up the price to much and them having to go activate it... Also think a brochure or someting on the unit that drives them to this site, well the actual geocache site is a good idea...

 

I know my opinion doesn't really matter much, but I feel like we are thowing out the whole innocent untill proven guilty thin here here towards the potential new goecashers that might be brought in by this...

 

If I bought one of these then was directed to this site and read this thread or stumbled upon it, I might be put off... Well, I wouldn't but I could see some....

 

How do we know that regualar free members and a few paid members are not trashing and or stealing Caches and bugs or whatever??? We don't, we can only make assumptions...

 

Actually I have read on here where ""potentially"", one of our great members has done trashed moved or stole a cache... Not much was said other than a quick mention or two...

Edited May 22, 2009 by solo63137

[+sbell111]

... How do we know that regualr free members and a few paid members are not trashing and or stealing Caches and bugs or whatever??? We don't, we can only make assumptions..

Actually, we know that current regular and premium members are the ones behaving badly, since these actions have been complained about for years and years, but this product only came out five minutes ago.

[+Team-Bee]

My wife just delivered an EARLY Father's Day present into my hands..... A Geomate.Jr for our trip to GW7.

 

Thats very cool, we will have to hunt you down to take a look at this little device that has so many people upset!

[+gof1]

It's clear that you wish to argue just to argue, but still it should be remembered that it is very typical for products to be tweaked after their initial roll out. The need to add a piece of documentation to future units is really no big deal.

 

It is silly to argue about whether this documentation should have been in the initial offering when the company admits that it would have been better if it was. The fact is, it wasn't included initially because they didn't realize how important it was to some people. Oh well...

 

I agree... Whats done is done...

 

How many times and ways can the same couple of Jabs be stated... I guess I could go back re-read this thread and count them...

 

I did like the idea somone had of the Travel Bug or Travel Coin comming with Geomate and them having to go activate it... Also think that something to drive them to this site, well the actual geocache site is a good idea...

 

I know my opinion doesn't really matter much, but I feel like we are thowing out the whole innocent untill proven guilty here towards the potential new goecashers that might be brought in by this...

 

How do we know that regualr free members and a few paid members are not trashing and or stealing Caches and bugs or whatever??? We don't, we can only make assumptions..

 

I don't think we are worried that large numbers of cache maggots will be created but rather that an uneducated group of newbies could inadvertently cause damage.

[+solo63137]

... How do we know that regualr free members and a few paid members are not trashing and or stealing Caches and bugs or whatever??? We don't, we can only make assumptions..

Actually, we know that current regular and premium members are the ones behaving badly, since these actions have been complained about for years and years, but this product only came out five minutes ago.

 

And they've already been blamed for something we've been doing for years... Sounds positive..

[+gof1]

Warren

 

The few people we know of around here who have purchased the Geomatejr. are all longtime cachers. When they gain access to the update kits are they going to be able to reconcile their found lists with the Geomatejr's database?

[+solo63137]

It's clear that you wish to argue just to argue, but still it should be remembered that it is very typical for products to be tweaked after their initial roll out. The need to add a piece of documentation to future units is really no big deal.

 

It is silly to argue about whether this documentation should have been in the initial offering when the company admits that it would have been better if it was. The fact is, it wasn't included initially because they didn't realize how important it was to some people. Oh well...

 

I agree... Whats done is done...

 

How many times and ways can the same couple of Jabs be stated... I guess I could go back re-read this thread and count them...

 

I did like the idea somone had of the Travel Bug or Travel Coin comming with Geomate and them having to go activate it... Also think that something to drive them to this site, well the actual geocache site is a good idea...

 

I know my opinion doesn't really matter much, but I feel like we are thowing out the whole innocent untill proven guilty here towards the potential new goecashers that might be brought in by this...

 

How do we know that regualr free members and a few paid members are not trashing and or stealing Caches and bugs or whatever??? We don't, we can only make assumptions..

 

I don't think we are worried that large numbers of cache maggots will be created but rather that an uneducated group of newbies could inadvertently cause damage.

 

I can see the concern, but other than put someting to help with that in future units and on the site for the unit, I'm not sure that 30 more posts beating the drum is going to help or just make us look like an angry or elite mob...

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to come off the wrong way; I'm new to this sport/Hobby and really want to see it last for years... I've already got two maybe three people interested in this sport...

 

I'd think there would be more fear and flame over the potential threat mentioned in the whole ""The GPS system is failing and the sky is falling" bit... If the GPS sats fail, there is no caching....

[+solo63137]

It's clear that you wish to argue just to argue, but still it should be remembered that it is very typical for products to be tweaked after their initial roll out. The need to add a piece of documentation to future units is really no big deal.

 

It is silly to argue about whether this documentation should have been in the initial offering when the company admits that it would have been better if it was. The fact is, it wasn't included initially because they didn't realize how important it was to some people. Oh well...

 

I agree... Whats done is done...

 

How many times and ways can the same couple of Jabs be stated... I guess I could go back re-read this thread and count them...

 

I did like the idea somone had of the Travel Bug or Travel Coin comming with Geomate and them having to go activate it... Also think that something to drive them to this site, well the actual geocache site is a good idea...

 

I know my opinion doesn't really matter much, but I feel like we are thowing out the whole innocent untill proven guilty here towards the potential new goecashers that might be brought in by this...

 

How do we know that regualr free members and a few paid members are not trashing and or stealing Caches and bugs or whatever??? We don't, we can only make assumptions..

 

I don't think we are worried that large numbers of cache maggots will be created but rather that an uneducated group of newbies could inadvertently cause damage.

 

I can see the concern, but other than put someting to help with that in future units and on the site for the unit, I'm not sure that 30 more posts beating the drum is going to help or just make us look like an angry or elite mob...

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to come off the wrong way; I'm new to this sport/Hobby and really want to see it last for years... I've already got two maybe three people interested in this sport...

 

I'd think there would be more fear and flame over the potential threat mentioned in the whole ""The GPS system is failing and the sky is falling" bit... If the GPS sats fail, there is no caching....

 

Whats been done or said about that? Anyone wrote congress or any other reps that might be able to help?

[+gof1]

Sorry, I think I jumped to quick.

Edited May 22, 2009 by gof1

[+Too Tall John]

You should have included the "update kit" in every box. Are you saying it's anything more than a cheap USB cable? Out of date cache information is probably the biggest concern expressed here.

Our objective was to provide a product that is as affordable as possible so every member of a family can each have one and enjoy geocaching together - kids love getting involved and doing rather than watching. To try to do this, we consciously moved the cost of the update capability out of the device and into the Update Kit (no, it's not just a USB cable)...

I'm curious about a couple things here. First, what is the interface between the GPS and my computer? Is it USB? (...and on both ends?)

 

Second, how customizable is what you upload to the unit? Could one add custom waypoints? Here's why I ask: I live & work at a camp in NH. There are 2 caches on the property that I'll bring people to when they are here to visit. They are listed on GC.com, but one is a Multi & the other is a Letterbox Hybrid (which also happens to be a multi!) Currently, we bring people out with 4 etrex H's (or their own units). Explaining to a group how to use the interface is a bit challenging at times, especially if you throw a different GPS into the mix. Something like your units would be a great solution. Being able to have the 2nd & 3rd stages pre-loaded would make it possible to arrive at the 1st stage and then say "Ok, normally you'd now enter these coords in, but, lucky you! They're already in your units!" A bit of a cheat, but short of being able to enter or edit waypoints... I've also considered hiding caches in the area our resident camp operates in. These would be strictly for campers & not listed on GC.com, since this part of camp is strictly off limits to the general public when kids are present. Unless there is a way to enter such waypoints, this GPS, which would otherwise be perfect for me, is useless.

 

My 2 questions are related, and lead to (or come from?) a 3rd question. If the Update Kit doesn't do what I want, how possible will it be to find/build a macro for GSAK to make my own custom database that I can upload to the unit? If it is possible, will I need a special doongle to do it, or can I use the mini-usb that seems to be permanently attached to my computer?

 

Finally, not a question, but... As far as including the Update Kit goes, someone a bit back suggested that this was done because to include it would bring the price point too close to a "real" GPS such as the etrex H. If they actually owned an etrex H, they would know that this unit doesn't come with the $38 proprietary serial cable needed to download waypoints. So, I can't blame you at all for the way you've handled that, although I really think it should have released at the same time. Not just because of the "stale data" issue, but because it's all about add-on sales. You drive through Burger King, one of the last questions when you place your order is "Would you like a pie with that for only $1.29?" For the retailer, it is much easier to sell the add-ons while your customer already has their wallet out. Next time you go through the drive-thru, ask the person waiting on you how often someone comes and buys just the pie. I know, the analogy doesn't fit exactly, but the point isn't about pies, it is about the ease of add-on sales.

[CoyoteRed]

If the Update Kit doesn't do what I want, how possible will it be to find/build a macro for GSAK to make my own custom database that I can upload to the unit?

Yes, I would like to know if this is possible. How is it envisioned that the update process is going to be accomplished? Is there software installed on a host computer? Windows only?

[+sbell111]

I'd kill for hot apple pie right now.

[+sbell111]

You should have included the "update kit" in every box. Are you saying it's anything more than a cheap USB cable? Out of date cache information is probably the biggest concern expressed here.

Our objective was to provide a product that is as affordable as possible so every member of a family can each have one and enjoy geocaching together - kids love getting involved and doing rather than watching. To try to do this, we consciously moved the cost of the update capability out of the device and into the Update Kit (no, it's not just a USB cable)...

I'm curious about a couple things here. First, what is the interface between the GPS and my computer? Is it USB? (...and on both ends?) ...

From the images that were included in the materials on the geomate site, the cable looks USB-like, but it is not a USB cable. It appears to have a button and some electronics that will make the download happen. Edited May 22, 2009 by sbell111

[Trinity's Crew]

It's clear that you wish to argue just to argue

 

Pot, meet kettle.

[+Jollylolly]

Please feel free to contact me at any time. Contact details can be found on www.mygeomate.com

 

Thanks Warren, I've taken you up on your offer. More to set the record straight, than to incur the wrath of anyone.

You've got Mail

 

Laurence

[+Frank Broughton]

Wouldn't it be cool if the Geomate.jr retail packaging contained an unactivated Travel Bug dog tag?

 

It could come with a little leaflet sending people to Geocaching.com where they could create an account, activate the TB, and learn /a/ more about the game and /b/ that TBs are not swag.

 

I appreciate that there is probably quite a bit of price sensitivity on the unit, but I'm sure Groundspeak could make "nice price for you, my friend Mr Apisphere".

 

Great idea!

 

Indeed it is! I like it.

[+Frank Broughton]

Warren,

 

Some caches are only for a dawn to dusk hunt, how will Geomate Jr users know this information?

[+Castle Mischief]

From the images that were included in the materials on the geomate site, the cable looks USB-like, but it is not a USB cable. It appears to have a button and some electronics that will make the download happen.

 

One of the new owners (Snoogans or Bad Andy) mentioned in either this thread or the other one that the plugger-do on the unit itself looked very proprietary- not your standard USB.

[knowschad]

From the images that were included in the materials on the geomate site, the cable looks USB-like, but it is not a USB cable. It appears to have a button and some electronics that will make the download happen.

 

One of the new owners (Snoogans or Bad Andy) mentioned in either this thread or the other one that the plugger-do on the unit itself looked very proprietary- not your standard USB.

 

According the the podcast, the cable contains proprietary electronics and is not USB.

[Trinity's Crew]

Wouldn't it be cool if the Geomate.jr retail packaging contained an unactivated Travel Bug dog tag?

 

It could come with a little leaflet sending people to Geocaching.com where they could create an account, activate the TB, and learn /a/ more about the game and /b/ that TBs are not swag.

 

I appreciate that there is probably quite a bit of price sensitivity on the unit, but I'm sure Groundspeak could make "nice price for you, my friend Mr Apisphere".

 

Great idea!

 

Indeed it is! I like it.

Ditto.

[knowschad]

Wouldn't it be cool if the Geomate.jr retail packaging contained an unactivated Travel Bug dog tag?

 

It could come with a little leaflet sending people to Geocaching.com where they could create an account, activate the TB, and learn /a/ more about the game and /b/ that TBs are not swag.

 

I appreciate that there is probably quite a bit of price sensitivity on the unit, but I'm sure Groundspeak could make "nice price for you, my friend Mr Apisphere".

 

Great idea!

 

Indeed it is! I like it.

Ditto.

 

I would assume that the device has a warranty that requests registration... if that is true, then that would be another opportunity to get a TB tag or geocoin out, thus getting the word out to at least some of those that have purchaced the device already. I think some form of this concept is an excellent idea!

[Jeremy]

So, I can't blame you at all for the way you've handled that, although I really think it should have released at the same time. Not just because of the "stale data" issue, but because it's all about add-on sales.

 

For various reasons it was important to release the Geomate.jr now and release the cable later (such as getting it in the REI catalog). Unfortunately when you manufacture products you have to make some pragmatic but sometimes non-optimal decisions on release schedules.

[Jeremy]

I'll give my perspective on the device since I had a chance to take it out geocaching a few times, though the highlight was taking it out with my wife, 3 month old daughter and 3 year old son last weekend.

 

In the perspective of a parent with young kids, this product is amazing. Instead of fighting with my opinionated toddler I was able to hand this device to him and use my iPhone to look up the details of the cache while we were searching for it. I treat this as a "companion device" with a fantastic GPS chip in it, and it is durable and inexpensive enough that I can comfortably hand it to a 3 year old and let him use it. He doesn't get the numbers but he understood the arrow concept pretty well.

 

I don't expect when he and my daughter get a little older that I'm going to hand a GPS device to him or her and say "have fun geocaching, son/daughter" unless I was comfortable enough with him and her and their maturity level. This idea that parents would be so blase about their kids' activities is ludicrous to me and I expect most parents would just cock their head questioningly at a comment like that.

 

The main negative of this device is the potential for stagnant data and this has always been a concern for me, which is why we took some care into creating an initial dataset that is statistically less likely to point to caches that go missing. As we tweak the base coordinates for the device it should get better, but the update cable is a must for your long-term geocaching enjoyment.

 

The hope is that the cables for these devices will be easily accessible - either at retail stores or local geocachers, to keep the geocache lists up to date. If they gain in popularity I expect that you'll see update kits at local events if you don't wish to pony up the small cost of purchasing one. Once we get an update kit at Groundspeak I intend to have every device sold on Shop Groundspeak to have the latest data on the day it ships.

[+Team Black-Cat]

We need a new, third, cache classification, pronto:

- Premium Member Only cache

- Member Only cache (new)

- Non-Member cache (loaded into units for sale)

Until Groundspeak implements that third classification (which was the default option until two days ago), all my caches are now Premium Members Only.

 

Apologies to Regular Members, but Groundspeak has just lumped you in with people who can't even be bothered to visit the website, where they might learn about how geocaching works.

 

Even if you change all of your existing caches to PMO, if they are already in the unit, your problem isn't solved.

 

I am almost tempted to move my hides 100 feet and change the coords on GC...

[+PhxChem]

We need a new, third, cache classification, pronto:

- Premium Member Only cache

- Member Only cache (new)

- Non-Member cache (loaded into units for sale)

Until Groundspeak implements that third classification (which was the default option until two days ago), all my caches are now Premium Members Only.

 

Apologies to Regular Members, but Groundspeak has just lumped you in with people who can't even be bothered to visit the website, where they might learn about how geocaching works.

 

Even if you change all of your existing caches to PMO, if they are already in the unit, your problem isn't solved.

 

I am almost tempted to move my hides 100 feet and change the coords on GC...

 

Of course, if they buy the update.....

[+Team Black-Cat]

 

Of course, if they buy the update.....

 

If someone is willing to buy the update kit and keep their 'mate updated then they will probably become responsible geocachers somewhere along the way. My fear is that most purchasers won't ever see a cache description page. A description that reads something like "Land to the West of this cache is private property. Approach only from the given parking coordinates" might be helpful, but will never be seen. Or "The land owner has requested that this cache only be visited during daylight hours".

 

Hmmmm.... Since the users of this device would not be able to read cache descriptions, they would never know about ALRs. I'm not suggesting a connection, but the timing is interesting.

[+Parabola]

 

Of course, if they buy the update.....

 

If someone is willing to buy the update kit and keep their 'mate updated then they will probably become responsible geocachers somewhere along the way. My fear is that most purchasers won't ever see a cache description page. A description that reads something like "Land to the West of this cache is private property. Approach only from the given parking coordinates" might be helpful, but will never be seen. Or "The land owner has requested that this cache only be visited during daylight hours".

 

Hmmmm.... Since the users of this device would not be able to read cache descriptions, they would never know about ALRs. I'm not suggesting a connection, but the timing is interesting.

Just reminding that a it only has traditional caches in this database, if there was a ARL it would have fallen into the mystery cache catch all category.

 

Yeah I wasn't happy about the ARL thing, and shut down a cache because of it, but I seriously doubt they have any connection.

[+Team Black-Cat]

Just reminding that a it only has traditional caches in this database, if there was a ARL it would have fallen into the mystery cache catch all category.

 

Yeah I wasn't happy about the ARL thing, and shut down a cache because of it, but I seriously doubt they have any connection.

 

Ah, that's right.

I doubt any connection either... I was just throwing it out there.

 

Back to the topic, I'm a little disturbed by the possible problems this little unit may cause, but I'm sure I'll get over it. The ALR issue bothered me, but it's old news already.

[Tsu Doh Nimh]

Our objective was to provide a product that is as affordable as possible so every member of a family can each have one and enjoy geocaching together - kids love getting involved and doing rather than watching.

Very smart. Give the kids an active part in the caching, while the parent has the details of the placement in their more expensive unit. I hadn't thought about that. Good cross-marketing.

[+whistler & co.]

After thinking about it for a couple of days, I'd have to say it's the lack of information about geocaching as a community of people who work together to entertain each other and to provide each other with things to do in their free time that bothers me the most. Caches don't just grow on trees and sprout up of their own volition under obvious piles of rocks...someone puts them there!

 

The Geomate.jr does not acknowledge the hider's role in placing the cache, does not instruct users as to the proper handling of trackables, and most disturbingly, does not promote responsible caching via READING THE CACHE DESCRIPTION. I realize that any geocacher can choose not to look at the cache description page, but I suspect most of them give it at least a cursory look before heading out.

 

Not having access to the cache page can cause so many problems! Warnings such as "Do not disturb any graves or monuments while searching," "The cache is not hidden in the landscaped area," "Park closes at dusk," "Do not park on the shoulder of the road or you will get ticketed," "Trailhead is located at N12 34.567 W12 34.567," and other relevant information is there for a reason. That reason is to protect the cache hunter from physical danger or legal repercussions, to protect landowners' rights, and to protect the reputation of geocaching in general by providing means for cachers to act in ways that do not attract unwanted, negative attention.

 

The reputation and future of the entire community can be changed by just a few people doing something stupid (South Carolina cemeteries come to mind). The members of the community (Groundspeak lackeys, local reviewers, cache owners, and cache seekers) have done a great job thus far working together to curtail the bad stuff by archiving caches when necessary, by emailing cachers who hide or hunt irresponsibly, and by discussing in a no-holds-barred manner all aspects of caching here and on more localized geocaching forums. The Geomate.jr as a product has its merits, but not requiring a minimal participation in the community can potentially have far-reaching and negative impacts on the sport itself.

[+Frank Broughton]

Warren,

 

Some caches are only for a dawn to dusk hunt, how will Geomate Jr users know this information?

 

whistler & co. has spoken well in the post above. It has to be a concern!

Edited May 23, 2009 by Frank Broughton

[+uxorious]

While one of my biggest concerns with this concept is the lack of requirement to read the cache page, that doesn't seem to be a problem exclusive to this new unit.

 

More and more we are reading in the forums about people who say they don't read the cache page. They get downloads of a slew of caches, put them in their GPSr and go. Then get upset when they have a problem with the cache, that was clearly noted in the Cache description.

 

It seems likely that most users of this new product will use it with another GPSr along.(parents have their usual GPSr, and the kids using this) The number of users reading the cache description may just be about the same. (If I didn't already have a back up GPSr, I might buy one of these for any friends that might want to try this out with me.)

[+Viajero Perdido]

After thinking about it for a couple of days, I'd have to say it's the lack of information about geocaching as a community of people who work together to entertain each other and to provide each other with things to do in their free time that bothers me the most. Caches don't just grow on trees and sprout up of their own volition under obvious piles of rocks...someone puts them there!

 

The Geomate.jr does not acknowledge the hider's role in placing the cache, does not instruct users as to the proper handling of trackables, and most disturbingly, does not promote responsible caching via READING THE CACHE DESCRIPTION. I realize that any geocacher can choose not to look at the cache description page, but I suspect most of them give it at least a cursory look before heading out.

 

Not having access to the cache page can cause so many problems! Warnings such as "Do not disturb any graves or monuments while searching," "The cache is not hidden in the landscaped area," "Park closes at dusk," "Do not park on the shoulder of the road or you will get ticketed," "Trailhead is located at N12 34.567 W12 34.567," and other relevant information is there for a reason. That reason is to protect the cache hunter from physical danger or legal repercussions, to protect landowners' rights, and to protect the reputation of geocaching in general by providing means for cachers to act in ways that do not attract unwanted, negative attention.

 

The reputation and future of the entire community can be changed by just a few people doing something stupid (South Carolina cemeteries come to mind). The members of the community (Groundspeak lackeys, local reviewers, cache owners, and cache seekers) have done a great job thus far working together to curtail the bad stuff by archiving caches when necessary, by emailing cachers who hide or hunt irresponsibly, and by discussing in a no-holds-barred manner all aspects of caching here and on more localized geocaching forums. The Geomate.jr as a product has its merits, but not requiring a minimal participation in the community can potentially have far-reaching and negative impacts on the sport itself.

This says it all, and wins my vote for best one-post summary of what the fuss is about.

 

(Well, almost all; there's nothing about broken implied trust, but I won't quibble now...)

[+BrrrMo]

[

I don't think we are worried that large numbers of cache maggots will be created but rather that an uneducated group of newbies could inadvertently cause damage.

 

I can see the concern, but other than put someting to help with that in future units and on the site for the unit, I'm not sure that 30 more posts beating the drum is going to help or just make us look like an angry or elite mob...

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to come off the wrong way; I'm new to this sport/Hobby and really want to see it last for years... I've already got two maybe three people interested in this sport...

 

I'd think there would be more fear and flame over the potential threat mentioned in the whole ""The GPS system is failing and the sky is falling" bit... If the GPS sats fail, there is no caching....

 

Whats been done or said about that? Anyone wrote congress or any other reps that might be able to help?

 

Excellent point! Maybe Groundspeak could get on board with this to provide updates as to what is happening with this issue, although I am not sure our current government leaders like the idea of people being able to pinpoint using GPSr.

Edited May 23, 2009 by BrrrMo

[+gof1]

[

I don't think we are worried that large numbers of cache maggots will be created but rather that an uneducated group of newbies could inadvertently cause damage.

 

I can see the concern, but other than put someting to help with that in future units and on the site for the unit, I'm not sure that 30 more posts beating the drum is going to help or just make us look like an angry or elite mob...

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to come off the wrong way; I'm new to this sport/Hobby and really want to see it last for years... I've already got two maybe three people interested in this sport...

 

I'd think there would be more fear and flame over the potential threat mentioned in the whole ""The GPS system is failing and the sky is falling" bit... If the GPS sats fail, there is no caching....

 

Whats been done or said about that? Anyone wrote congress or any other reps that might be able to help?

 

Excellent point! Maybe Groundspeak could get on board with this to provide updates as to what is happening with this issue, although I am not sure our current government leaders like the idea of people being able to pinpoint using GPSr.

 

Very interesting, and being discussed over here.

[+solo63137]

[

I don't think we are worried that large numbers of cache maggots will be created but rather that an uneducated group of newbies could inadvertently cause damage.

 

I can see the concern, but other than put someting to help with that in future units and on the site for the unit, I'm not sure that 30 more posts beating the drum is going to help or just make us look like an angry or elite mob...

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to come off the wrong way; I'm new to this sport/Hobby and really want to see it last for years... I've already got two maybe three people interested in this sport...

 

I'd think there would be more fear and flame over the potential threat mentioned in the whole ""The GPS system is failing and the sky is falling" bit... If the GPS sats fail, there is no caching....

 

Whats been done or said about that? Anyone wrote congress or any other reps that might be able to help?

 

Excellent point! Maybe Groundspeak could get on board with this to provide updates as to what is happening with this issue, although I am not sure our current government leaders like the idea of people being able to pinpoint using GPSr.

 

Very interesting, and being discussed over here.

 

I saw that...

 

48 posts, mostly joking....

[Neath Worthies]

although I am not sure our current government leaders like the idea of people being able to pinpoint using GPSr.

By "OUR" government leaders" to whom are you referring? Remember Geocaching is a worldwide game so dozens of governments are potentially referenced by such a statement.

 

I'm sure that Grodon Brown is unlikely to be overly concerned by Geocaching at the moment!

[GOF and Bacall]

[

I don't think we are worried that large numbers of cache maggots will be created but rather that an uneducated group of newbies could inadvertently cause damage.

 

I can see the concern, but other than put someting to help with that in future units and on the site for the unit, I'm not sure that 30 more posts beating the drum is going to help or just make us look like an angry or elite mob...

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to come off the wrong way; I'm new to this sport/Hobby and really want to see it last for years... I've already got two maybe three people interested in this sport...

 

I'd think there would be more fear and flame over the potential threat mentioned in the whole ""The GPS system is failing and the sky is falling" bit... If the GPS sats fail, there is no caching....

 

Whats been done or said about that? Anyone wrote congress or any other reps that might be able to help?

 

Excellent point! Maybe Groundspeak could get on board with this to provide updates as to what is happening with this issue, although I am not sure our current government leaders like the idea of people being able to pinpoint using GPSr.

 

Very interesting, and being discussed over here.

 

I saw that...

 

48 posts, mostly joking....

 

I'm glad to hear that it is stirring up the serious concern it deserves.

[knowschad]

48 posts, mostly joking....

 

We need to get back on topic, folks. The satellite "issue" (non-issue, actually) has nothing to do with this thread.

Edited May 23, 2009 by knowschad

[+DatCrazyMongoose]

After reading about the seemingly easy update process to grab 1/4 million caches in the push of a button, how come no one has traveled down this train of thought....

 

There is a hack for EVERYTHING on the web. If this update comes from the internet, it can't be that hard to turn it into your own personal massive PQ. If you pay $70 for the unit and $20 for the update kit, that's 3 years worth of Premium Membership fees to be able to get 250,000 cache PQs for LIFE!

 

I wonder how long it will take for the hack to come out?

[+Viajero Perdido]

Or skip the $70+$20, and just grab the file off a torrent site whenever it feels like your current file is getting a bit stale.