How to ruin the game

September 8, 2008

This was a fun game. Good times both solo and with family & friends out hunting caches. Even better times constructing and placing a bunch of my own. Made a few new friends in the caching community along the way. But then I was told of a problem cacher in the area. I was given a warning list of all the unethical things he does including trashing caches and stealing TBs. No, I'm not going to name him, as his ID is irrelevant to the point I want to make.

I've spent the last several days pouring over old forum posts, reviewing old cache and TB logs around this person. He is responsible for stealing dozens, perhaps hundreds, of TBs (mostly coins) and placing them in an unpublished cache, which I'm told by others is his collection at his house. Once they go in, they never come out. And there are coins he's held for years. Very recently, he cleaned out a TB Hotel in another city he was visiting. All the logs before him show folks happily dropping TBs, then he shows up and logs that "he's taking a few TBs". Another cacher logged a visit later in the same day that the cache was practically empty when he arrived. There are still a dozen TB's shown in the cache inventory and this guy didn't log out anything. I'm told by some other locals that this is what the guy's been doing since the beginning. He'll only log out a TB if it can be pinned on him that he took it, and then he just drops it in his unpublished cache. All the local TB Hotels that were being operated were shut down by their owners last year. I'm told that every time someone logged a TB in, it would dissappear within hours, but never be logged out. Reading through the travel bug forums, I see this is not a rare situation at all.

So, I put out a pretty good multi-cache recently (and before I knew of these issues) and this guy starts emailing me within hours asking for help on completing some of the stages. Just before those messages started flooding in, another cacher who I've been talking to sends me a quick note that he completed this cache as FTF earlier in the day and he thought it was great, etc., and that he won't be able to log it online until late the next day as he was heading out on a fishing trip. Anyhow, the "bad apple" is apparently all confused and having problems with the cache (there are simple puzzles to be solved at each stage) and his GPSr. I didn't give him any shortcuts or provide additional clues, but when he sent me a decoded waypoint, I did confirm when things were correct. He didn't complete it the first day. The second day, in the evening, the messages start again and I give him a few pointers here and there about using his GPS with magnetic declination and etc. Confirmed his right answers when he got them and was generally being pretty helpful. Finally, he finds the cache, and I get the last message of the night... a scathing and nasty note about how he didn't get FTF and that I must have known that so-n-so got it yesterday, etc. It was pretty rude. But I shrugged it off as I was warned he was a hot-head. A couple days without hearing anything from him, so I finally send a very friendly note asking if he was going to log his find as I was truly interesting in his adventure and what he thought of the multi-cache. He replies that he would and within an hour he has posted what would appear to be a pretty typical and friendly log. But, I know what happened behind the scenes, so it leaves a sour taste.

Anyhow, the next morning after he completed that cache, I get a couple messages from some other cachers. They went and tried to do this cache and found that one of the game pieces had been ripped off it's securing tether and was missing. Now, sure it *might* have been muggled at some point after 9pm the night before in a remote park with no local traffic. Oh, and the experienced cacher who got the FTF, he said he spent nearly an hour just searching for that one piece and complemented me on how well it blended in, etc. When I talked to him after finding out it was missing, he says it was one in a billion if a muggle stumbled into that camo'd piece in the middle of the night, in the middle of the forest. This is when I start getting the whole story about our local "bad apple" and his history of theft and other cases where he trashed caches. BTW, he was permanently banned from these forums long ago. Looking through his old forum posts, it's very clear as to why, especially when he openly admits to these activities and is basically challenging anyone to stop him.

At any rate, that's my story. Not asking for help or anything, just venting my new found frustration with evil people. This is the kind of stuff that makes a fairly new cacher with little invested so far want to just walk away and find a different sport. And it's the reason why I'm rethinking the additional cache placements that had been bouncing around in my head. Now, I have to figure out how to bad cacher proof my hides, not just muggle proof them. I've decided I'm not going to participate in the travel bug side of this sport at this time. I'd bought a travel bug dog tag and also one of the vehicle stickers for my truck (with its own dog tag). I'm putting the dog tag on my dog's collar. He's going to be carrying that one from now on and I'll just log my dog's collar into and out of any caches we visit together. At least it will be miles that are safe from TB thieves.

38.2k · September 8, 2008

I think TAR said it best..."One of the great things about geocaching is that everybody can do it. "One of the worst things about geocaching is that everybody can do it" or something that effect.

I guess the best thing to do is to set up your e-mail to filter out any e-mails from this person. If he trashes one of your caches either archive it without comment or quietly replace it without saying a word and giving him the attention he craves , then move on.

Edited September 8, 2008 by briansnat

September 8, 2008

you have my sympathy

do they still tarr and feather folks in USA?

cant stand those folks that KNOW they cant be get at legally and will throw that in yer face.

long time ago "i heard" here its costs about €750 (BEF30.000 in those days) to whipe a smirk of someones face.

nothing to the face, no breaking of arms or legs, just bruises, painfull ribs and lots of bruised little swimmers.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Guinness70

38.2k · September 8, 2008

It's easy to tell who this person is. He's been sitting on 30 TBs and geocoins, some since June.

September 8, 2008

Sorry for you- glad he's way away from me!

I'm with Guiness70 - find him , bruise him.

Sorry , I know it's not right.

3.1k · September 8, 2008

It's easy to tell who this person is. He's been sitting on 30 TBs and geocoins, some since June.

If I've got the right person, it's the same guy who, about a year ago, posted about how he loves to delay logging his FTFs so that people don't know it's already been found. Funny that he'd get upset when it happened to him, and it wasn't even intentional.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Dinoprophet

September 8, 2008

That's really disturbing. I'm sorry this is happening in your area. It's really easy to tell who you're talking about and it's good that people know. I hope he never takes a vacation to Florida.

- Elle

September 8, 2008

I'm sure it's been discussed on these boards before, but I haven't seen it so help me please -- what is the LEGAL ownership status of geocoins & TBs that have been placed in caches?

At first blush, I'd suppose they were still private property. If that is the case, it seems to me it'd be rather easy to 'set up' this scoundrel, put out some bait & once he has it & has kept it beyond the proscribed time limit, send in the law to reclaim your property and then prosecute him. I'm also sure there are some difficulties involved, but for some, the extra effort it takes is well worth it -- and this one sure sounds like he deserves some justice.

And it prolly wouldn't hurt to copy, record & save (beforehand) all his 'bragging' re his history & practices -- including being banned from here.

~*

September 8, 2008

someone know a geocaching lawyer? :-)

6.7k · September 8, 2008

This was a fun game.

And still is.

Good times both solo and with family & friends out hunting caches. Even better times constructing and placing a bunch of my own. Made a few new friends in the caching community along the way.

Great! I love this game and the people who play it... well, most of them!

But then I was told of a problem cacher in the area. I was given a warning list of all the unethical things he does including trashing caches and stealing TBs. No, I'm not going to name him, as his ID is irrelevant to the point I want to make.

Actually his ID is relevant locally so that folks know to avoid him, but maybe not appropriate to post in this forum. He's easy enough to find based on what you've told us if we care enough to do so. I don't.

As alluded to above, Rambler's Mantra helps me remember that there will be a few bad folk in every group, but most always a small percentage:

The best thing about geocaching is that it is open to everyone.

The worst thing about geocaching is... that it is open to everyone!

I've spent the last several days pouring over old forum posts, reviewing old cache and TB logs around this person.

Aha! Here's the problem! You've let him capture your attention and focus. That is his mission. When you do this, he wins.

He is responsible for stealing dozens, perhaps hundreds, of TBs (mostly coins) and placing them in an unpublished cache, which I'm told by others is his collection at his house. Once they go in, they never come out. And there are coins he's held for years. Very recently, he cleaned out a TB Hotel in another city he was visiting. All the logs before him show folks happily dropping TBs, then he shows up and logs that "he's taking a few TBs". Another cacher logged a visit later in the same day that the cache was practically empty when he arrived. There are still a dozen TB's shown in the cache inventory and this guy didn't log out anything. I'm told by some other locals that this is what the guy's been doing since the beginning. He'll only log out a TB if it can be pinned on him that he took it, and then he just drops it in his unpublished cache. All the local TB Hotels that were being operated were shut down by their owners last year. I'm told that every time someone logged a TB in, it would disappear within hours, but never be logged out. Reading through the travel bug forums, I see this is not a rare situation at all.

Actually it IS rare. Far more TBs move unimpeded than get hijacked, it's just that we only hear about the problems in logs and forums... like in the media, all of the good stuff that happens rarely gets commented on. Good behavior is expected to be the norm, so it's the bad stuff that gets commented on as it is NOT the norm.

There are perhaps millions, certainly many hundreds of thousands, of TBs and geocoins floating around out there, if we hear about a few in the forums that got hijacked that shouldn't affect our view of the many.

So, I put out a pretty good multi-cache recently (and before I knew of these issues) and this guy starts emailing me within hours asking for help on completing some of the stages. Just before those messages started flooding in, another cacher who I've been talking to sends me a quick note that he completed this cache as FTF earlier in the day and he thought it was great, etc., and that he won't be able to log it online until late the next day as he was heading out on a fishing trip. Anyhow, the "bad apple" is apparently all confused and having problems with the cache (there are simple puzzles to be solved at each stage) and his GPSr. I didn't give him any shortcuts or provide additional clues, but when he sent me a decoded waypoint, I did confirm when things were correct. He didn't complete it the first day. The second day, in the evening, the messages start again and I give him a few pointers here and there about using his GPS with magnetic declination and etc. Confirmed his right answers when he got them and was generally being pretty helpful. Finally, he finds the cache, and I get the last message of the night... a scathing and nasty note about how he didn't get FTF and that I must have known that so-n-so got it yesterday, etc. It was pretty rude. But I shrugged it off as I was warned he was a hot-head. A couple days without hearing anything from him, so I finally send a very friendly note asking if he was going to log his find as I was truly interesting in his adventure and what he thought of the multi-cache. He replies that he would and within an hour he has posted what would appear to be a pretty typical and friendly log. But, I know what happened behind the scenes, so it leaves a sour taste.

Anyhow, the next morning after he completed that cache, I get a couple messages from some other cachers. They went and tried to do this cache and found that one of the game pieces had been ripped off it's securing tether and was missing. Now, sure it *might* have been muggled at some point after 9pm the night before in a remote park with no local traffic. Oh, and the experienced cacher who got the FTF, he said he spent nearly an hour just searching for that one piece and complemented me on how well it blended in, etc. When I talked to him after finding out it was missing, he says it was one in a billion if a muggle stumbled into that camo'd piece in the middle of the night, in the middle of the forest. This is when I start getting the whole story about our local "bad apple" and his history of theft and other cases where he trashed caches. BTW, he was permanently banned from these forums long ago. Looking through his old forum posts, it's very clear as to why, especially when he openly admits to these activities and is basically challenging anyone to stop him.

So now you know to ignore the guy. Lesson learned. I take everyone at face value until they prove that they can't be trusted, then I cut them from my life and move on, but I don't forget that lesson about that person... it just doesn't affect my opinion of anyone else.

It's unfortunate that people like this exist, we just have to learn to work around them. It sounds like he can't work puzzles on his own (most who do this kind of stuff aren't known for their intelligence!) so maybe hiding more such puzzles and asking that hints not be given will keep him from finding them!

At any rate, that's my story. Not asking for help or anything, just venting my new found frustration with evil people. This is the kind of stuff that makes a fairly new cacher with little invested so far want to just walk away and find a different sport.

There is no game that does not have bad people playing it. None.

That means that you have to find a way to enjoy any game despite them.

I have cached in 28 states and met hundreds of geocachers, I have had trouble such as you describe with only two, both of whom are now gone from the game.

South Carolina was plagued with such a cacher; he kept folks aflutter for a year or longer, but he finally wandered away back under his rock. This guy will likely do the same.

And it's the reason why I'm rethinking the additional cache placements that had been bouncing around in my head. Now, I have to figure out how to bad cacher proof my hides, not just muggle proof them. I've decided I'm not going to participate in the travel bug side of this sport at this time.

Isn't that like saying someone stole my car, the cops say a theft ring works in my area, so I am not going to buy a new car, it's just not fun to drive a car anymore knowing that it might get stolen? Or some kid down the street stole my football so I am not going to play that game anymore?

I'd bought a travel bug dog tag and also one of the vehicle stickers for my truck (with its own dog tag). I'm putting the dog tag on my dog's collar. He's going to be carrying that one from now on and I'll just log my dog's collar into and out of any caches we visit together. At least it will be miles that are safe from TB thieves.

Great idea! I have on on my GPS that I used to log in and out, but it got to be a PITA. I have put out 50-something TBs and hundreds of geocoins, the vast majority have been traveling for years and many thousands of miles. A few went missing, including one of my favorites that was on it's way back from visiting the Arctic Circle when some twerp in Oregon decided he wouldn't move it along because his dog liked it for a chew toy. At times like that I repeat Rambler's Mantra and go on with my game.

I know that you just needed to vent, these things ARE irritating, and weren't asking for help (good thing, because there isn't any!), I just wanted to maybe give you the perspective that there are a few bad apples in every barrel, but you can still enjoy the rest. Same with this game... the vast majority of geocachers rock, even though there are a few twerps wandering amongst us.

As long as this guy's twisted psyche is fed by the attention his actions get he will continue to abuse our game. When his actions are met with nothing but silence he'll likely get bored and go bother somebody else. Unfortunately, until he gets tired of it he'll keep doing it. :rolleyes:

Please don't let him chase you out of this wonderful game... maybe cache in areas geographically remote from him for a while.

Dinoprophet said:

If I've got the right person, it's the same guy who, about a year ago, posted about how he loves to delay logging his FTFs so that people don't know it's already been found.

That's not always a bad thing, it's quite a fun way to do FTFs in my area. Several of the most beloved FTF seekers in the area will find the cache but wait to log it until the unwitting STF discovers their name already in the log. That's happened to me many times... I get to the cache, woohoo, FTF! Open the log and there's OBH's or BetaMan's name. I think it's funny, and according to the logs and the discussions on our local forum (DixieCachers.com) most of us do as well.

If this kind of thing makes you mad maybe you should re-examine what motivates you to find the cache... there will never be a guarantee that you'll be the FTF!

In my area it just motivates those of us who want to be FTF to sharpen our skills and get out there quickly

September 8, 2008

I'm sure it's been discussed on these boards before, but I haven't seen it so help me please -- what is the LEGAL ownership status of geocoins & TBs that have been placed in caches?

At first blush, I'd suppose they were still private property.

Not to defend a TB/coin thief, but I would guess from a legal standpoint that if a person leaves a small object in the middle of the woods and another person takes it, it would not be an act that could be prosecuted.

Maybe a geocaching lawyer or LEO could post something about this.

6.7k · September 8, 2008

I'm sure it's been discussed on these boards before, but I haven't seen it so help me please -- what is the LEGAL ownership status of geocoins & TBs that have been placed in caches?

At first blush, I'd suppose they were still private property.

Not to defend a TB/coin thief, but I would guess from a legal standpoint that if a person leaves a small object in the middle of the woods and another person takes it, it would not be an act that could be prosecuted.

Maybe a geocaching lawyer or LEO could post something about this.

Interesting topic, though it is off-topic for this thread.

It goes to the question of cache ownership itself - I'm not a lawyer but have heard that in some states leaving a cache is littering!

Please open a new thread (or dig up one of the others on this issue) and let's see what the answer is in different states.

Edit to add: There are a number of attorneys of different specialty among us, I've rarely seen them post a legal opinion here. I suspect that's because an issue like this could only be answered on the local level and there is no blanket answer. Maybe if you know a local lawyer well enough s/he will give you an answer, but it would likely apply only to your state, and maybe even county or city.

Edit again to add: This may be one of those questions that we don't want to ask! What if you discover that leaving a cache, TB or coin is in fact littering and the hider can be prosecuted for it? What if that's the case and it comes to the attention of the state that we are littering their state with illegal geocaches? No, I think I would leave this one alone!

Edited September 8, 2008 by TheAlabamaRambler

3.1k · September 8, 2008

Dinoprophet said:

If I've got the right person, it's the same guy who, about a year ago, posted about how he loves to delay logging his FTFs so that people don't know it's already been found.

That's not always a bad thing, it's quite a fun way to do FTFs in my area. Several of the most beloved FTF seekers in the area will find the cache but wait to log it until the unwitting STF discovers their name already in the log. That's happened to me many times... I get to the cache, woohoo, FTF! Open the log and there's OBH's or BetaMan's name. I think it's funny, and according to the logs and the discussions on our local forum (DixieCachers.com) most of us do as well.

If this kind of thing makes you mad maybe you should re-examine what motivates you to find the cache... there will never be a guarantee that you'll be the FTF!

In my area it just motivates those of us who want to be FTF to sharpen our skills and get out there quickly

I clarified my post, probably after you started writing. My point was that this person was mad that the OP didn't tell him that FTF had already been claimed, yet intentionally does that very thing to everyone else. Dishes it out, can't take it.

...Finally, he finds the cache, and I get the last message of the night... a scathing and nasty note about how he didn't get FTF and that I must have known that so-n-so got it yesterday, etc. It was pretty rude....

Edited September 8, 2008 by Dinoprophet

24.7k · September 8, 2008

I'm sure it's been discussed on these boards before, but I haven't seen it so help me please -- what is the LEGAL ownership status of geocoins & TBs that have been placed in caches?

At first blush, I'd suppose they were still private property.

Not to defend a TB/coin thief, but I would guess from a legal standpoint that if a person leaves a small object in the middle of the woods and another person takes it, it would not be an act that could be prosecuted. ..

You would suppose correctly. It's against the law to steal personal property. It can be prosecuted. However law enforcment uses a priority scale. A TB is towards the bottom. Justice over a TB becomes a private matter where your time, money, and resources have to be brought to bear to force justice. Then I would imagine that the judge would have to priortize it once it's brought before them.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Renegade Knight

September 8, 2008

Thanks for the responses (and emails). And just to clarify one bit, I do enjoy the game and will not be driven from it. I believe the root of the issue is that folks like this guy bring the question to mind of, "why am I doing this?", when no such thought ever occurred before. When I finally went from curious "muggle" who's read about geocaching for a couple years, to signing up and finding that first cache... well, let's just say it opened up a whole new world of outdoor activities that I've now pulled 3 of my closest friends into. Last month the 3 of us spent an entire day on a 200-mile caching road trip and it was the best time we have ever had together in all the years I can remember. So, to go from something that was so much pure fun to what was essentially being gut-kicked by this one person was just a big let down. No worries about getting over it and moving on, but it's the reality that there are folks like this that just gets to me. And there is really no recourse to deal with such folks, so I have to adjust my activities to avoid him and thereby he "wins" that battle.

At any rate, as far as giving the guy "what he's looking for", I'm doing everything I can to be sure that doesn't happen. The couple cachers who told me of the missing piece were asked not to reveal anything about that in their logs. One has finished and logged his find without mention of that event. Still waiting for the other. The missing piece was replaced immediately and without fanfare, so the few hours it was gone have had no real impact.

About puzzles: I've put out 2 simple ones and am currently working on 3 more of moderate to high difficulty. It is unfortunate that one must resort to puzzles to keep folks like this away as it also tends to place an undue challenge on our everyday cachers. I'd love it if I could just put together a cool hide with some nifty twist and place it in some unique spot knowing that when a cacher finds it, they are going to treat it with some level of respect.

Anyhow, with every challenge comes creativity. In some ways, this is but another challenge that will be overcome. I am actively working with a couple of our more experienced local cache hiders and together we are brainstorming ideas about how to deal with the situation and still be placing some good caches. For the near term, expect most placements to be puzzles.

18.9k · September 8, 2008

All it takes is one to ruin it for many.

Ignore him and fail to give him the attention he tries to grab. It will become un-fun and maybe he will move on.

September 8, 2008

Members Only & Turn the Table

This is very irritating and I have total sympathy for you!!

This is also another good reason for Member only caches - at least in your area (I repeat, at least in our area - not meaning this for everyone). If you can get enough on him to get him kicked out then at least he'll have to keep paying to join as a new member using all new information to read the member only caches.

Also I would recommend that everyone in your area stop posting that you've placed a TB - put a note in the TB for the finder to email you before logging it so you can drop it for them to take - explain that you're doing this because of a thief in the area and to please drop it outside of your area. We have had to do that in our area. When someone from out of the area dropped a TB, the owner, who was on vacation, emailed me to hurry and fetch it before the thief got to it (a whole other game tactic !!!). We figured our local thief was not a member and was only hitting the caches with TBs in them - so just don't publicize that there's a TB!!

I know we shouldn't have to do this stuff BUT make it your own game of outwitting him - at least you can get some joy in knowing you're frustrating him and taking his fun away.

Any other ideas on how to play his game better than him????

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know we shouldn't have to but if we have to deal with these idiots at least make it fun rather than being mad about the whole thing (from my geo-therapist friend).

6.7k · September 8, 2008

All it takes is one to ruin it for many.

Ignore him and fail to give him the attention he tries to grab. It will become un-fun and maybe he will move on.

All it takes is for you to decide that one can't spoil it for anybody unless you choose to allow them to do so!

18.9k · September 8, 2008

All it takes is for you to decide that one can't spoil it for anybody unless you choose to allow them to do so!

Tough to do when he steals the whole cache!!! :rolleyes:

6.7k · September 8, 2008

All it takes is for you to decide that one can't spoil it for anybody unless you choose to allow them to do so!

Tough to do when he steals the whole cache!!!

Yes, it certainly is! However it shouldn't spoil the game, just hide another and go on enjoying the game, otherwise the bad guys win!

September 8, 2008

All it takes is for you to decide that one can't spoil it for anybody unless you choose to allow them to do so!

Tough to do when he steals the whole cache!!!

Yes, it certainly is! However it shouldn't spoil the game, just hide another and go on enjoying the game, otherwise the bad guys win!

It can be frustrating to lose the money invested in a hide or TB. We accept the risk, obviously, since a muggle could pick it up but for someone to intentionally do it ... I find that kind of frustration very understandable.

- Elle

September 8, 2008

I'm sure it's been discussed on these boards before, but I haven't seen it so help me please -- what is the LEGAL ownership status of geocoins & TBs that have been placed in caches?

At first blush, I'd suppose they were still private property.

Not to defend a TB/coin thief, but I would guess from a legal standpoint that if a person leaves a small object in the middle of the woods and another person takes it, it would not be an act that could be prosecuted. ..

You would suppose correctly. It's against the law to steal personal property. It can be prosecuted. However law enforcment uses a priority scale. A TB is towards the bottom. Justice over a TB becomes a private matter where your time, money, and resources have to be brought to bear to force justice. Then I would imagine that the judge would have to priortize it once it's brought before them.

Funny you should put it that way. I took a break while ago & was pondering....the OP did say 'dozens' or 'hundreds'. My thoughts were that as expensive as GeoCoins have gotten, it shouldn't take long before the stolen accumulation should reach 'Grand Theft' level. If the cops could (legally) get ahold of "his collection" & hold for evidence while the owners were contacted, I'd bet enough would join in the prosecution to warrant a significant amount of monetary value -- even if not quite Grand Theft, hopefully enough to make the thief really regret his actions from the penalty he received from the court.

Anyway, not gonna dwell on it. My point is, I happened to be thinking about how much monetary value we were talkin' about here -- and I saw a lot of potential for a rather high amount, even not considering what 'sentimental' value the rightful owners might add.

~*

Edited September 8, 2008 by Star*Hopper

6.7k · September 8, 2008

... You would suppose correctly. It's against the law to steal personal property.

... it shouldn't take long before the stolen accumulation should reach 'Grand Theft' level.

Again, you are both assuming that once a cache, TB or geocoins is put out into the wild that it is still personal property and protected by property rights.

I think they are, we should treat them as if they are, but we do not yet have a legal opinion so we do not know.

I am as against muggling a cache or hijacking a TB as anyone can be, but I do not know if it is legally a theft.

A coin was taken from my collection at an event - that's clearly a theft.

A coin I put into a cache and abandoned was taken and disappeared? Probably not.

Edited September 8, 2008 by TheAlabamaRambler

24.7k · September 8, 2008

... You would suppose correctly. It's against the law to steal personal property.

... it shouldn't take long before the stolen accumulation should reach 'Grand Theft' level.

Again, you are both assuming that once a cache, TB or geocoins is put out into the wild that it is still personal property and protected by property rights....

I'm talking facts based on a legal opinion, or as close to one as an attorney can give you without saying 'it depends'. They remain personal property. The laws protecting personal property hold true. The logistics of enforcing the law is another thing. There are a lot of factors that come into play between the law and it's actual enforcement.

Of course since I'm the one who spoke to the attorney, for you to hear it from me is hearsay and inadmissible.

5.8k · September 8, 2008

I would never condone this, but how about setting up a TB for him to find that is covered in Poison Oak, or one of those exploding dye packs!!

5.8k · September 8, 2008

Members Only & Turn the Table

This is very irritating and I have total sympathy for you!!

This is also another good reason for Member only caches - at least in your area (I repeat, at least in our area - not meaning this for everyone). If you can get enough on him to get him kicked out then at least he'll have to keep paying to join as a new member using all new information to read the member only caches.

Also I would recommend that everyone in your area stop posting that you've placed a TB - put a note in the TB for the finder to email you before logging it so you can drop it for them to take - explain that you're doing this because of a thief in the area and to please drop it outside of your area. We have had to do that in our area. When someone from out of the area dropped a TB, the owner, who was on vacation, emailed me to hurry and fetch it before the thief got to it (a whole other game tactic !!!). We figured our local thief was not a member and was only hitting the caches with TBs in them - so just don't publicize that there's a TB!!

I know we shouldn't have to do this stuff BUT make it your own game of outwitting him - at least you can get some joy in knowing you're frustrating him and taking his fun away.

Any other ideas on how to play his game better than him????

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know we shouldn't have to but if we have to deal with these idiots at least make it fun rather than being mad about the whole thing (from my geo-therapist friend).

another way would be to get together as a group and send him on a hundred wild chases for TBs that are never in the Cache. I know this way might snag a few other poor players in the search for non existant TBs, but he might get tired after a few weeks of running to every Cache to find nothing there.

Of course this is probably against the rules, so I wouldn't let Groundspeak know that you were doing it. It's sad that they won't be interested in helping with the problem that a thief creates, but would probably hold any countermeasures against the rest of us.

September 8, 2008

I would never condone this, but how about setting up a TB for him to find that is covered in Poison Oak, or one of those exploding dye packs!!

Indeed. It would be horrible if somebody did that. Could you imagine the rash all over his hands, spreading to his arms, chest, neck...? The poison reaction from the Poison Oak wouldn't be instant so there'd be no way of knowing which stolen traveller was the problem. Simply awful if this happened. *tsk

*snicker*

- Elle

September 8, 2008

There is this thing called "the honeycomb project" or something like that, what it is is you make something theives want to take, in this case it is a tb, but when they take it it does something such as shock them.

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-End...eybike-Project/

here is an instructable showing you how you can make one just modify it in to a tb.

6.7k · September 8, 2008

Gotta say that the last few posts on revenge and poison and shock certainly fit under the title "How to ruin the game"!

What say let's don't do these things!

September 8, 2008

Members Only & Turn the Table

This is very irritating and I have total sympathy for you!!

This is also another good reason for Member only caches - at least in your area (I repeat, at least in our area - not meaning this for everyone).

I went back and used clues to figure out who this was. If I'm right, it looks like he IS a premium member.

He also does seem to be keeping tons of TB's saying things like he'll hang on to them until he goes on a big trip, but then never logs again about them.

Can't Groundspeak at least remove his premium status? I know it won't help much but it would at least protect some premium caches for a while until he sock puppets.

September 8, 2008

Members Only & Turn the Table

This is very irritating and I have total sympathy for you!!

This is also another good reason for Member only caches - at least in your area (I repeat, at least in our area - not meaning this for everyone).

I went back and used clues to figure out who this was. If I'm right, it looks like he IS a premium member.

He also does seem to be keeping tons of TB's saying things like he'll hang on to them until he goes on a big trip, but then never logs again about them.

Can't Groundspeak at least remove his premium status? I know it won't help much but it would at least protect some premium caches for a while until he sock puppets.

He's a PM and the Cache in question is a Member-only cache. I don't think his behavior will be different until he loses all interest in the game and quits. Some cachers don't change their stripes.

The problem with trying to ask Groundspeak to step in is that I don't see anywhere where this bad behavior is against the TOS. It's unethical, it's mean, it's rude and it's unacceptable ... but it's not against the rules. Moving TBs along is a requested action for the purpose of playing the game, not a required action in the TOS. Destroying caches is deserving of several four-letter words but I haven't read in the TOS that Groundspeak will suspended or terminate accounts for doing this.

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am.

- Elle

Edited September 8, 2008 by HauntHunters

September 8, 2008

Eek, I was pretty excited because my coin was traveling around in Alaska. Guess I keep my fingers crossed and bombard him with prayers to mend his ways.

September 9, 2008

Generally, cachers are good and nice people. That said, I've learned that many cachers are unscrupulous (sp?) and untrustworthy.

Enjoy the game, play it honorably and follow the golden rule. Our good behavior will provide leadership and encourage good behavior from others.

38.2k · September 9, 2008

Generally, cachers are good and nice people. That said, I've learned that many cachers are unscrupulous (sp?) and untrustworthy.

Enjoy the game, play it honorably and follow the golden rule. Our good behavior will provide leadership and encourage good behavior from others.

This sport is dependent on the honesty and good will of others. I find that the unscrupulous cachers are extremely rare. If they weren't we wouldn't have a sport.

September 9, 2008

This was a fun game. Good times both solo and with family & friends out hunting caches. Even better times constructing and placing a bunch of my own. Made a few new friends in the caching community along the way. But then I was told of a problem cacher in the area. I was given a warning list of all the unethical things he does including trashing caches and stealing TBs. No, I'm not going to name him, as his ID is irrelevant to the point I want to make.

I've spent the last several days pouring over old forum posts, reviewing old cache and TB logs around this person. He is responsible for stealing dozens, perhaps hundreds, of TBs (mostly coins) and placing them in an unpublished cache, which I'm told by others is his collection at his house. Once they go in, they never come out. And there are coins he's held for years. Very recently, he cleaned out a TB Hotel in another city he was visiting. All the logs before him show folks happily dropping TBs, then he shows up and logs that "he's taking a few TBs". Another cacher logged a visit later in the same day that the cache was practically empty when he arrived. There are still a dozen TB's shown in the cache inventory and this guy didn't log out anything. I'm told by some other locals that this is what the guy's been doing since the beginning. He'll only log out a TB if it can be pinned on him that he took it, and then he just drops it in his unpublished cache. All the local TB Hotels that were being operated were shut down by their owners last year. I'm told that every time someone logged a TB in, it would dissappear within hours, but never be logged out. Reading through the travel bug forums, I see this is not a rare situation at all.

So, I put out a pretty good multi-cache recently (and before I knew of these issues) and this guy starts emailing me within hours asking for help on completing some of the stages. Just before those messages started flooding in, another cacher who I've been talking to sends me a quick note that he completed this cache as FTF earlier in the day and he thought it was great, etc., and that he won't be able to log it online until late the next day as he was heading out on a fishing trip. Anyhow, the "bad apple" is apparently all confused and having problems with the cache (there are simple puzzles to be solved at each stage) and his GPSr. I didn't give him any shortcuts or provide additional clues, but when he sent me a decoded waypoint, I did confirm when things were correct. He didn't complete it the first day. The second day, in the evening, the messages start again and I give him a few pointers here and there about using his GPS with magnetic declination and etc. Confirmed his right answers when he got them and was generally being pretty helpful. Finally, he finds the cache, and I get the last message of the night... a scathing and nasty note about how he didn't get FTF and that I must have known that so-n-so got it yesterday, etc. It was pretty rude. But I shrugged it off as I was warned he was a hot-head. A couple days without hearing anything from him, so I finally send a very friendly note asking if he was going to log his find as I was truly interesting in his adventure and what he thought of the multi-cache. He replies that he would and within an hour he has posted what would appear to be a pretty typical and friendly log. But, I know what happened behind the scenes, so it leaves a sour taste.

Anyhow, the next morning after he completed that cache, I get a couple messages from some other cachers. They went and tried to do this cache and found that one of the game pieces had been ripped off it's securing tether and was missing. Now, sure it *might* have been muggled at some point after 9pm the night before in a remote park with no local traffic. Oh, and the experienced cacher who got the FTF, he said he spent nearly an hour just searching for that one piece and complemented me on how well it blended in, etc. When I talked to him after finding out it was missing, he says it was one in a billion if a muggle stumbled into that camo'd piece in the middle of the night, in the middle of the forest. This is when I start getting the whole story about our local "bad apple" and his history of theft and other cases where he trashed caches. BTW, he was permanently banned from these forums long ago. Looking through his old forum posts, it's very clear as to why, especially when he openly admits to these activities and is basically challenging anyone to stop him.

At any rate, that's my story. Not asking for help or anything, just venting my new found frustration with evil people. This is the kind of stuff that makes a fairly new cacher with little invested so far want to just walk away and find a different sport. And it's the reason why I'm rethinking the additional cache placements that had been bouncing around in my head. Now, I have to figure out how to bad cacher proof my hides, not just muggle proof them. I've decided I'm not going to participate in the travel bug side of this sport at this time. I'd bought a travel bug dog tag and also one of the vehicle stickers for my truck (with its own dog tag). I'm putting the dog tag on my dog's collar. He's going to be carrying that one from now on and I'll just log my dog's collar into and out of any caches we visit together. At least it will be miles that are safe from TB thieves.

Well what you have to do is go out to his place,Say 300ft away and get cords for a heavily wooded spot and hide a cache,in his back yard! But, Not hiding an actual cache!!!! Not telling reviewer theres No cache. Then tell local cachers(friends) about it not being there. And make it a 5 Difficulty. Then once a week one of these friendly cachers ,logs it has a find and how well it's camoed and was extremely hard to find!

This should blow his mind for some time!!!!!!

Great pay back;I'd say!!!!!

SCLAVE of www.schuylkillgeocachers.com

1.6k · September 9, 2008

... You would suppose correctly. It's against the law to steal personal property.

... it shouldn't take long before the stolen accumulation should reach 'Grand Theft' level.

Again, you are both assuming that once a cache, TB or geocoins is put out into the wild that it is still personal property and protected by property rights....

I'm talking facts based on a legal opinion, or as close to one as an attorney can give you without saying 'it depends'. They remain personal property. The laws protecting personal property hold true. The logistics of enforcing the law is another thing. There are a lot of factors that come into play between the law and it's actual enforcement.

Of course since I'm the one who spoke to the attorney, for you to hear it from me is hearsay and inadmissible.

I agree. When a collector loans artwork to a museum so it can be enjoyed by the public it's still owned by the collector (not the museum, not the public). TB's and coins are essentially "loaned" to the public (other cachers) and are entrusted to the cachers who picks it up. All TB's and coins have an individual tracking number. You can prove beyond a doubt who the owner is of each object.

The coin/TB owners willingly released them into the wild for the enjoyment of geocachers. The problem is that the person in question is a geocacher, and therefore has a legal right to possess the items. If confronted by LEO, he only has to say that he forgot, or was protecting them from another thief, or was planning on taking them on a trip with him, or he didn't realize that he wasn't supposed to keep them (remember that cachers are supposed to "trade" swag?). Unless he starts selling the coins on eBay (now THAT would be stupid, considering the stamped codes), there's really no practical way to prosecute him for theft.

The only option I see is for all the TB and coin owners to write to him requesting return of THEIR PROPERTY. Save all emails and all replies from the thief (if any). After some time (a month or two), forward all emails to the local LEO (or to the OP who can act as a local advocate). With hundreds of dollars worth of items on the line and dozens of complainers the local LEOs will probably go talk to the guy at least. But even with all this the best case scenario would be he dumps them all in a cache. Or in a puddle somewhere near a cache.

September 9, 2008

It seems he's thought about this before.

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...p;#entry3132484

September 9, 2008

It seems he's thought about this before.

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...p;#entry3132484

Nice search skills.

- Elle

September 9, 2008

Edited September 9, 2008 by Chumpo

6.1k · September 9, 2008

....Unless he starts selling the coins on eBay (now THAT would be stupid, considering the stamped codes), there's really no practical way to prosecute him for theft.

The only option I see is for all the TB and coin owners to write to him requesting return of THEIR PROPERTY. Save all emails and all replies from the thief (if any). After some time (a month or two), forward all emails to the local LEO (or to the OP who can act as a local advocate). With hundreds of dollars worth of items on the line and dozens of complainers the local LEOs will probably go talk to the guy at least. But even with all this the best case scenario would be he dumps them all in a cache. Or in a puddle somewhere near a cache.

The serial numbers clearly indicate that they have an owner, and who it is. If anyone notices stolen coins on E-bay, please contact them and they will remove the listing, as they really are stolen.

If all of the TB and coin owners contact him at the same time that may work well.

If he has a significant amount in his possession, the owners can all sign a joint complaint and the police may investigate if the value is above a certain amount.

2.3k · September 9, 2008

As the victim of the vile actions of serial cache marauders, we abhor the activities of these twisted sick individuals--But to post tips on how to beat them up or how to booby-trap caches is equally abhorrent.

2.2k · September 9, 2008

As was pointed out, let's not get into how to physically harm or seek revenge on this person as that ruins the game as well.

Thanks.

September 9, 2008

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6260...sf%3Dp%26s%3D30

That group should be shutdown on the facebook site

September 9, 2008

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6260...sf%3Dp%26s%3D30

That group should be shutdown on the facebook site

Reported as "Attacks Individual or Group" but I doubt this qualifies.

This is the form to report Copyright Infringement on Facebook. Since I don't see any "Geocaching Logo © Groundspeak", they're in violation of the Use terms.

A friend of mine doesn't geocache. He thinks it's stupid and a waste of time. He doesn't even bother to refer to it as "geocaching" and just says "that gps game thing". When I mentioned that there are people who play just to trash caches and steal travellers, he said, "The only thing that I can think is a bigger waste of time than this gps game is taking time to ruin the game for people who do play it."

Live and let live.

- Elle

September 9, 2008

Reported as "Attacks Individual or Group" but I doubt this qualifies.

This is the form to report Copyright Infringement on Facebook. Since I don't see any "Geocaching Logo © Groundspeak", they're in violation of the Use terms.

That link to report copyright infringement takes me to my own Facebook page.

I reported that site as "Attacks Individual or Group" with the following text:

This site promotes and incites individuals to destroy private property that is used in the geocaching game.

The site also displays a copyrighted logo (the geocaching logo), that is owned by Groundspeak of Seattle, Washington, USA.

Maybe a new thread should be started on our forums to call on as many of us as possible to report that page as an attack site to Facebook.

7.2k · September 9, 2008

Unfortunately you have to hide caches behind puzzle sometimes. If said individual is destroying stages then your first stages need to be durable; a plague, sign, etc.

...then be selective to whom you confirm coordinates. That you can do.

Additionally, if it gets really bad, form a local group and place your cache privately. Share a custom-made GPX file amongst yourselves. Be careful of with whom you share it. GSAK allows you to enter caches from scratch.

September 9, 2008

He has one of my travel bug coins in his unpublished cache.

I sent him a PM yesterday asking for it to be released, but I am sure I will not get a reply.

If he wanted one of my coins he could have just asked and I would have gladly sent him one. This would have made us both happier.

I won't do it now though. I don't want to reward his childish behavior.

How to ruin the game

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