Cheaters never profit...?

[woodstrider]

Or do they? Morals in the sport of geocaching.

 

This week I was notified by another CO that his hides had been web-logged by someone that did not actually sign the log, or find them, so it would be implied. As this player had also logged my hides as well, I checked and sure enough, he did not sign my actual logs, but did claim the find.

 

As a backpacker, belonging to several altitude clubs where (for many of these clubs) your word is taken for granted as to whether or not you climbed the peaks, in other words an honor system is in place- I find this lack of personal integrity egregious. This is a game/sport, after all. But, like all endeavors in life, a person's true character is illuminated in the spot light of their actions.

 

I did email the person in question, and I am allowing them the oppurtunity to set things right. I know that some COs would just delete the logs and be done with it, but I thought that the person should have a chance to make amends.

 

I am new to geocaching, and to placing my own hides, but I have never had this happen before. It is disappointing. Good news is, most everyone that I have come across in this sport is really of a superior character.

[+KBI]

Good news is, most everyone that I have come across in this sport is really of a superior character.

That's been my experience as well.

 

You handled it the same way I would have. Some folks would have summarily deleted the log, but I prefer to give a person a second chance without being quite so blunt about it. Who knows – maybe the “finder” didn’t intend to be dishonest, and simply doesn’t understand the system.

 

Or maybe the person did, in fact, visit and find the cache but had reasons (valid or not) for not signing the paper log. If so, then he should be able to convince you he really was at the cache site that day, and you can then decide whether that’s good enough for you.

 

If he doesn't respond after some reasonable time, or if after his response you still aren’t satisfied he deserves his online log, then delete it. I would. That may not be a fun thing to do, but – it’s your cache. You went to the trouble to hide it. You don’t owe anyone a false find.

[+webscouter.]

Although what they did is wrong and in opposition to the ideals of geocaching the question begs to be asked did they really profit?

 

There are no monetary gains to be made.

They certainly didn't gain any respect with the geocaching community that knows about their false logs.

No physical gains, they don't look any different

No mental gains, they didn't learn anything from the experience.

No habitat gains, I don't think they live in a nicer home because of the logs.

 

Nope, no profit made.

 

Give them some time to respond and then delete the logs and move on.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

People are people, some good, others not so much.

 

I don't know much about mountain climbing, but isn't it common to have a peak register to sign to prove that you had been there?

 

From http://angeles.sierraclub.org/sps/archives/sps01265.htm

 

At 7:45am I summited, found the peak register in an ammo box, signed in as 3rd party this year, and looked for elusive bighorn sheep which had left fresh tracks in the snow.

 

Same as a cache log.

Edited August 2, 2008 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+Isonzo Karst]

There's no profit to the cheater.

 

It's also rather rare.

 

In 5 years in the game and with 140 hides, I've seen this once on a hide I own. I have had instances of cachers inadvertently logging the wrong cache, but that's just a mistake.

[+Mudfrog]

Although what they did is wrong and in opposition to the ideals of geocaching the question begs to be asked did they really profit?

 

There are no monetary gains to be made.

They certainly didn't gain any respect with the geocaching community that knows about their false logs.

No physical gains, they don't look any different

No mental gains, they didn't learn anything from the experience.

No habitat gains, I don't think they live in a nicer home because of the logs.

 

Nope, no profit made.

 

Give them some time to respond and then delete the logs and move on.

 

I beg to differ as there is evidently some kind of profit for the people doing it. I, like you, don't understand it, but there is something that a few people gain from logging falsely. Otherwise, they wouldn't waste their time doing it!

[+briansnat]

There's no profit to the cheater.

 

If there was no profit, then people wouldn't bother. There needs to be some sort of profit, whether perceived or real.

[+TwoCat]

This same cacher has logged 2 of our caches, 1 of which I am sure was not visited by them. I have not confirmed the other yet.

 

While geocaching is a game, for me the only competition is with pushing myself to go places I have never been to and do things I have not done. The motivation for behavior this is beyond me.

 

I'm curious if you will get a response to you email.

[+Flatouts]

Goecaching is like everything else in life...you only get out of it what you put into it. Cheat it and it cheats you. Respect it and it rewards you with some incredible journeys you might otherwise miss out on.

 

To the OP...life's to short to sweat the small stuff...do what "you" feel is right, then let it go and move on.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Update. My sister checked one of her caches logged by this person. Again no signature. Batting 0 for 8 on checked caches, across three states.

[+KBI]

There is something that a few people gain from logging falsely. Otherwise, they wouldn't waste their time doing it!

 

There's no profit to the cheater.

If there was no profit, then people wouldn't bother. There needs to be some sort of profit, whether perceived or real.

You guys are making an assumption.

 

You are assuming that the person who is doing this is intelligent, sane, and rational.

[+webscouter.]

 

I beg to differ as there is evidently some kind of profit for the people doing it. I, like you, don't understand it, but there is something that a few people gain from logging falsely. Otherwise, they wouldn't waste their time doing it!

 

 

If there was no profit, then people wouldn't bother. There needs to be some sort of profit, whether perceived or real.

 

Just because someone believes something exist doesn't mean it is true. Case in point, I believe that I am handsome, intelligent and witty.

 

No matter how much a false logger thinks he/she is gaining something at the end of the day they really haven't upgraded their life.

[+Too Tall John]

I beg to differ as there is evidently some kind of profit for the people doing it. I, like you, don't understand it, but there is something that a few people gain from logging falsely. Otherwise, they wouldn't waste their time doing it!

If there was no profit, then people wouldn't bother. There needs to be some sort of profit, whether perceived or real.

Just because someone believes something exist doesn't mean it is true. Case in point, I believe that I am handsome, intelligent and witty.

There is a difference between your thinking you are handsome, intelligent, and witty and someone posting false logs. A false logger is claiming one thing when the truth is something else. If you post a picture, saying you look like this:

when you really look like this:

then you might have a more valid comparison.

[3v1L Schwinn]

Hi all, What I don't understand (being relatively new to Geocaching) Why would anyone want to falsify their numbers? I mean yes this a sport/hobby but as far as I can tell there is no award or prize at the end of the year. There is no super bowl of Geocaching no world series. So why do it? To make their numbers more impressive? Who are we competing against? As far as I can tel the only one I am competing against is myself.I guess the only one I would be "competing" against would be the cache owner as they hide them and "challenge" me to find it and have fun doing it. I do this for myself. I live near a state park that has numerous hides and I have fun going out in the park hunting for caches. I could care less how many finds I have or that I have some DNF's in my log.

[+tigger2]

Hi folks,

 

The problem that I have run across about half a dozen times is someone claiming a find on an Archived Cache. It happened again today. 2 people claimed a find for an archived cache of mine and were sharp enough to back date their find to a time when it was still in play. But, they were not sharp enough to realize that they were not even playing the game at the time that they claim they found the cache. One of them was short by 3 months and the other one by 13 months. Also, they claim that they found it with another player but they are using a different "Find Date" from that player.

I archived that cache on May, 7, 2007. Maybe they'll try to tell me that the e-mail must have gotten lost in the system and is just now arriving. That will set some kind of new record! And for 2 of them to get lost in the mail for over a year and then miraculously arrive at the same time? No way.

On one of my virtual caches, I had a player claim a find and his information was not complete. I sent him an e-mail requesting the additional information. His response was to tell me that he lives in Germany and his way of playing the game was not to go out and find caches but to try and convince the Cache Owners that he actually did find it. All without leaving his house! With players like this out there, how does anyone think that someones total number of finds is honest. Or that numbers matter at all?

Another cache, not one of mine, was claimed by a player for a date that preceeded its' hiding by a month! How do you find a cache that has not been hidden yet?!

So why do these people do it? They think that it is all about the "numbers". So in the case of Archived Caches, they claim finds in the hope that the owner has left the game and noone will notice the phoney find. Once in a while, the owner is still playing the game and calls them on it. Then they have to back down and say it was a "mistake" or some other lame excuse.

I just wish that when a cache is archived, it would not be possible for anyone but the cache owner to post anything on the cache page. If someone needs to make a change in the page, they can contact the owner and have him do it. Mr. J. Irish? Is it possible to do that?

 

Tigger 2

Edited August 3, 2008 by tigger2

[AZcachemeister]

 

I beg to differ as there is evidently some kind of profit for the people doing it. I, like you, don't understand it, but there is something that a few people gain from logging falsely. Otherwise, they wouldn't waste their time doing it!

 

 

If there was no profit, then people wouldn't bother. There needs to be some sort of profit, whether perceived or real.

 

Just because someone believes something exist doesn't mean it is true. Case in point, I believe that I am handsome, intelligent and witty.

 

No matter how much a false logger thinks he/she is gaining something at the end of the day they really haven't upgraded their life.

 

Actually, it gave them something to do for a few moments. Selecting the caches to 'log' could be quite challenging in itself, especially if they expect others to really believe they were there.

 

Posting in these forums really doesn't enhance my life much either...but here I am!

[CoyoteRed]

I beg to differ as there is evidently some kind of profit for the people doing it. I, like you, don't understand it, but there is something that a few people gain from logging falsely. Otherwise, they wouldn't waste their time doing it!

If there was no profit, then people wouldn't bother. There needs to be some sort of profit, whether perceived or real.

Just because someone believes something exist doesn't mean it is true.

The same can be said for "cheaters never profit." They have to get something out of it. Logging caches is not a chore that one has to do. "Whelp, gotta go log some caches. Oh, wait, I haven't found any. Eh, never mind, I'll just log some that I didn't find and be done with it." Doesn't happen.

 

Why they did it, like KBI said, may be an honest mistake. It could be like someone else said, a personal game. It really doesn't matter in the end, a found it log is supposed to only be for those logs indicating one's first successful trip and find of a cache.

Edited August 3, 2008 by CoyoteRed

[+Kare429]

I think there's always going to be cheating, no matter how the rules are written. For example, I know a cacher who caches all weekend and then claims to have gotten them all in one day. I say let the cheaters cheat. It only makes them look foolish and it doesn't affect my game at all.

[+tozainamboku]

There's no profit to the cheater.

 

If there was no profit, then people wouldn't bother. There needs to be some sort of profit, whether perceived or real.

Similarly, there has to be some harm whether perceived or real to the people who only log caches they actually found be bothered about someone else's logs.

[+KBI]

Hi all, What I don't understand (being relatively new to Geocaching) Why would anyone want to falsify their numbers? I mean yes this a sport/hobby but as far as I can tell there is no award or prize at the end of the year. There is no super bowl of Geocaching no world series. So why do it? To make their numbers more impressive? Who are we competing against? As far as I can tel the only one I am competing against is myself.I guess the only one I would be "competing" against would be the cache owner as they hide them and "challenge" me to find it and have fun doing it. I do this for myself. I live near a state park that has numerous hides and I have fun going out in the park hunting for caches. I could care less how many finds I have or that I have some DNF's in my log.

Precisely.

 

There is no logical explanation for the online logging of false finds. It isn’t a rational behavior. Anyone who would do so is, at the very least, exceptionally confused.

 

Logging a false find makes about as much sense as lying to oneself in one’s own diary.

 

On the other hand, a false log does not constitute an inherent threat to the ability of honest cachers to enjoy the hobby in the conventional way. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson: a false log neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

 

This issue comes up occasionally in the forums as if it were an impending crisis. I would hope we can all at least agree on these premises:

• There is no way to prevent false logs from happening. They can be verified against paper logs; they can be policed; they can be deleted when detected; they can be frowned upon with the very harshest frown a concerned and righteous cacher can muster – but they cannot be prevented.
  
• Extremely few account holders, as a percentage, ever post false logs.
  
• The very few people who post false logs, after learning there is no benefit or gain, will most likely only do so for a short time – with the possible exception of those whose false logs gain them a lot of attention, that is.
  

There is plenty of room in this open hobby for every person who respects the rights of others, even if they occasionally make a mistake: fumble a Travel Bug, forget a pen, use an incorrect date, draw a muggle’s attention, or go off the deep end with their, um, ‘online accuracy standard.’

 

In my opinion the false logs "problem" is a curiosity, not a crisis. It is merely a trickle – an easily ignorable trickle – and I see no reason to expect it to become dangerous enough to fret over.

 

If it ever goes far enough beyond curious trickle to become an overwhelming deluge then maybe I will become concerned. I just don’t see that ever happening. I believe it will never become worse because, as the OP says: "most everyone ... in this sport is really of a superior character."

 

Active policing can only go so far anyway. Ultimately the only 'control' we can depend on is the honor system, and for the better part of a decade now almost 100% of cachers have proven themselves to be quite worthy of that system. Same as society in general. As civilization goes, so goes caching.

 

If that percentage ever changes substantially, cache logs will be the least of our concerns.

[3v1L Schwinn]

I have been considering hiding my own cache. After I have a few more finds under my belt. Once I have finished makeing the cache container and going throught that proper channels with GC.com and my local park authorites. One of the requirement to logging a find one this cache will be a word/phrase/code inside the log that will have to be emailed while logging the find. No email no find.

[+Too Tall John]

I have been considering hiding my own cache. After I have a few more finds under my belt. Once I have finished makeing the cache container and going throught that proper channels with GC.com and my local park authorites. One of the requirement to logging a find one this cache will be a word/phrase/code inside the log that will have to be emailed while logging the find. No email no find.

A word of warning:

 

Such a requirement will require, according to the guidelines, that this cache of yours be listed as a puzzle cache. Some people will skip right over it because it is listed as such, doesn't matter how easy or hard it is.

 

If you don't mind that, great! If you do mind, you may need to just check the logbook occasionally.

[+chuckwagon101]

"Thanks for another great cache as I continue my travel across this beautiful land!"

 

I would like for all cache hiders to post my above message on their caches and give me credit for each one.

 

I am just finding sooooo many caches that I don't have time to post them all! I just LOVE this wonderful sport and all the interesting people I meet along the way!

 

Rest assured that I have been to all the caches....just go ahead and put my little cut and paste thingy on there for me............go ahead! You believe me don't you????

 

Would I LIE to you??????

 

Thanks bunches and Gooooo Cachers! or whatever!

[+Harry Dolphin]

Hi folks,

 

The problem that I have run across about half a dozen times is someone claiming a find on an Archived Cache. It happened again today. I just wish that when a cache is archived, it would not be possible for anyone but the cache owner to post anything on the cache page. If someone needs to make a change in the page, they can contact the owner and have him do it. Mr. J. Irish? Is it possible to do that?

 

On the other hand, I have found at least one archived cache recently. It was not listed as 'archived' when we left on the trip. We found it. When we logged it, it was listed as 'archived and removed.' Nope. Wasn't removed.

[+Too Tall John]

Hi folks,

 

The problem that I have run across about half a dozen times is someone claiming a find on an Archived Cache. It happened again today. I just wish that when a cache is archived, it would not be possible for anyone but the cache owner to post anything on the cache page. If someone needs to make a change in the page, they can contact the owner and have him do it. Mr. J. Irish? Is it possible to do that?

On the other hand, I have found at least one archived cache recently. It was not listed as 'archived' when we left on the trip. We found it. When we logged it, it was listed as 'archived and removed.' Nope. Wasn't removed.

I've found at least 4 caches that had been archived and not removed and know of at least 2 more close to home that have been verified as there long after archival.

 

Tigger2: The cache owner of a number of caches (including some of those I've found) archived them all and then dropped off the face of the geocaching planet. How would you propose we contact him?

 

Found is found, why shouldn't I be able to log it?

[+Harry Dolphin]

Why they did it, like KBI said, may be an honest mistake. It could be like someone else said, a personal game. It really doesn't matter in the end, a found it log is supposed to only be for those logs indicating one's first successful trip and find of a cache.

 

I doubt that anyone thinks that the case in point is 'an honest mistake'. Over a thousand finds logged across two countries. While those double checked have been minimal, there have been no signatures found. Does it actually affect geocaching? Not really. Does it matter? Yup. It's annoyed many cache owners who believed in the intrinsic honesty of their fellow man.

It is, however, interesting as a study in psychology. If the supposition is true (that this person has not found over a thousand caches claimed), would you trust this person to change your oil?

[+KBI]

On the other hand, I have found at least one archived cache recently. It was not listed as 'archived' when we left on the trip. We found it. When we logged it, it was listed as 'archived and removed.' Nope. Wasn't removed.

I've found at least 4 caches that had been archived and not removed and know of at least 2 more close to home that have been verified as there long after archival.

 

Tigger2: The cache owner of a number of caches (including some of those I've found) archived them all and then dropped off the face of the geocaching planet. How would you propose we contact him?

 

Found is found, why shouldn't I be able to log it?

I have found and logged a couple of already-archived caches as well.

 

This is indeed one of the potential dangers of the Bogus Log Witch Hunt: Honest people being accused of lying.

 

I say we put away the torches and pitchforks, and save them for a real problem -- one that matters.

[+briansnat]

There's no profit to the cheater.

 

If there was no profit, then people wouldn't bother. There needs to be some sort of profit, whether perceived or real.

Similarly, there has to be some harm whether perceived or real to the people who only log caches they actually found be bothered about someone else's logs.

 

Ask Mr Dolphin about the extra work this person caused him.

[+MedicOne]

I've found many a cache where just the opposit occurs - cache is found but there's never a log posted on the site. Do as the terracachers do; establish a confirmation code system - but that might be too difficult in micro and mini caches so prevalent in the game today. A CC removes all doubt as to whether someone found a cache or not.

Edited August 4, 2008 by MedicOne

[Mr.Yuck]

Or do they? Morals in the sport of geocaching.

 

This week I was notified by another CO that his hides had been web-logged by someone that did not actually sign the log, or find them, so it would be implied. As this player had also logged my hides as well, I checked and sure enough, he did not sign my actual logs, but did claim the find.

 

As a backpacker, belonging to several altitude clubs where (for many of these clubs) your word is taken for granted as to whether or not you climbed the peaks, in other words an honor system is in place- I find this lack of personal integrity egregious. This is a game/sport, after all. But, like all endeavors in life, a person's true character is illuminated in the spot light of their actions.

 

I did email the person in question, and I am allowing them the oppurtunity to set things right. I know that some COs would just delete the logs and be done with it, but I thought that the person should have a chance to make amends.

 

I am new to geocaching, and to placing my own hides, but I have never had this happen before. It is disappointing. Good news is, most everyone that I have come across in this sport is really of a superior character.

 

Hmm. You're in NY, have you done any of the 46 peaks in the Adirondack's? I have 4, you'll just have to take my word for it.

 

I said before in another thread regarding this cacher that I'm intrigued by the sociological/psychological reasons why they would do this. No witch hunt, I just find it interesting. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't affect me or anything, but I'm getting really sick of that tired old line. Got a new one? There is obviously a perceived notion of "profit" for a person logging bogus finds. I suppose it boils down to being all about the numbers.

[+Isonzo Karst]

his way of playing the game was not to go out and find caches but to try and convince the Cache Owners that he actually did find it.

 

interesting, and the first response that makes a bit of sense to me. He's engaging in a game of "tweak the tail of the tiger". I think it's regrettable, in a game that rests so squarely on trust in many directions, but at least that explanation is understandable to me.

 

On codewords, aside from the fact that they take a cache from traditional to mystery, I personally find them offensive. I simply log notes on codeword caches, never finds, or more likely, ignore them.

The cache owner decides to inconvenience every finder with recalling and reciting via email a codeword because they can't take a person's word for the find. Meh, either my word is good enough for you, or it ain't.

The odds on any given find log being bogus are astonishingly small, and the logbook exists for the owner to check if they're paranoid about it.

 

Any cache owner that wants a codeword recited had better describe precisely who or what agency gave permission for the hide right on the cache page - with verifiable contact information, as obviously, nobody can be trusted on their word.

[+whistler & co.]

I think there's always going to be cheating, no matter how the rules are written. For example, I know a cacher who caches all weekend and then claims to have gotten them all in one day. I say let the cheaters cheat. It only makes them look foolish and it doesn't affect my game at all.

 

Maybe this person is just too lazy (or too oblivious to the dates) to change the date for each log? We have occasionally logged caches electronically with the wrong date, as well as sometimes putting the wrong date in the logbook itself, once for an entire 20+ cache run!

[AZcachemeister]

I've found many a cache where just the opposit occurs - cache is found but there's never a log posted on the site. Do as the terracachers do; establish a confirmation code system - but that might be too difficult in micro and mini caches so prevalent in the game today. A CC removes all doubt as to whether someone found a cache or not.

 

Confirmation codes only prove that you got the code.

 

I think there's always going to be cheating, no matter how the rules are written. For example, I know a cacher who caches all weekend and then claims to have gotten them all in one day. I say let the cheaters cheat. It only makes them look foolish and it doesn't affect my game at all.

 

Maybe this person is just too lazy (or too oblivious to the dates) to change the date for each log? We have occasionally logged caches electronically with the wrong date, as well as sometimes putting the wrong date in the logbook itself, once for an entire 20+ cache run!

 

If the person(s) in question had signed the log, but used the wrong date, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[+sbell111]

There's no profit to the cheater.

If there was no profit, then people wouldn't bother. There needs to be some sort of profit, whether perceived or real.

Similarly, there has to be some harm whether perceived or real to the people who only log caches they actually found be bothered about someone else's logs.

Ask Mr Dolphin about the extra work this person caused him.

Most people who cared about this issue would counter that the 'extra work' is a part of cache maintenance that he agreed to when he placed the caches.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Maybe we need to do something like Microsoft is doing with game cheaters on Xbox Live.

 

From http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=573412 regarding the fate of proven cheaters:

 

Today’s steps takes the form of the following:

 

• Resetting the entire Gamerscore for an account to zero

• The account will be unable to regain all previously obtained achievements and Gamerscore, however, the players will have the ability to gain future Achievements by earning them fairly, like the majority of the Xbox LIVE community does.

• The account will be clearly labeled as a cheater for the community to view on xbox.com. You can see an example here. In dash, the personal view of the gamercard will be labeled as well.

[+sbell111]

Maybe we need to do something like Microsoft is doing with game cheaters on Xbox Live.

 

From http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=573412 regarding the fate of proven cheaters:

 

Today’s steps takes the form of the following:

 

• Resetting the entire Gamerscore for an account to zero

• The account will be unable to regain all previously obtained achievements and Gamerscore, however, the players will have the ability to gain future Achievements by earning them fairly, like the majority of the Xbox LIVE community does.

• The account will be clearly labeled as a cheater for the community to view on xbox.com. You can see an example here. In dash, the personal view of the gamercard will be labeled as well.

Given TPTB's take on the competition side of the game, I rather doubt any of that will happen, nor should it.

[+simpjkee]

Quite egregious indeed. I ran in to one such egregious cacher before and I sent him an email telling him that I deleted his egregious log and that he best not do it again. Not surprisingly, I have yet to hear back from him. Surprisingly, his find count dropped by over a hundred within two days.

 

I guess he got the message

[Mushtang]

Cheaters never profit...?

 

That's true. People that cheat at their Find count in geocaching never profit.

 

But then neither do those that are honest about their Find count.

 

Nobody "wins" at this game.

[+KBI]

Cheaters never profit...?

That's true. People that cheat at their Find count in geocaching never profit.

 

But then neither do those that are honest about their Find count.

... and neither do those who make it their business to anguish and criticize over other people’s logging behavior.

 

 

"Nobody ever made any money by peeking disapprovingly into someone else’s pocket." – Author Unknown

 

"No cacher ever accomplished any cache finds by glaring disapprovingly at another cacher’s find count." (apologies to A. U.)

[CoyoteRed]

Cheaters never profit...?

That's true. People that cheat at their Find count in geocaching never profit.

 

But then neither do those that are honest about their Find count.

... and neither do those who make it their business to anguish and criticize over other people’s logging behavior.

 

The folks that profit are those that don't have to worry about a bogus log because the cache owner is steadfast in his trying to keep bogus logs off his cache pages.

[+Kabuthunk]

Or do they? Morals in the sport of geocaching.

 

This week I was notified by another CO that his hides had been web-logged by someone that did not actually sign the log, or find them, so it would be implied. As this player had also logged my hides as well, I checked and sure enough, he did not sign my actual logs, but did claim the find.

 

As a backpacker, belonging to several altitude clubs where (for many of these clubs) your word is taken for granted as to whether or not you climbed the peaks, in other words an honor system is in place- I find this lack of personal integrity egregious. This is a game/sport, after all. But, like all endeavors in life, a person's true character is illuminated in the spot light of their actions.

 

I did email the person in question, and I am allowing them the oppurtunity to set things right. I know that some COs would just delete the logs and be done with it, but I thought that the person should have a chance to make amends.

 

I am new to geocaching, and to placing my own hides, but I have never had this happen before. It is disappointing. Good news is, most everyone that I have come across in this sport is really of a superior character.

On every cache I place, I have a "disclaimer" on the website portion of it saying something along the lines of "if you're name's not in the logbook, it's not going on the website". I also check, photograph, and post (on my own personal webpage though... but it's linked to from the cache description online) all of the logbook pages... so it's pretty easy to see if someone's cheated.

 

Around here though, I've seen several names signed onto the logbook that never signed online!

[+MarshMonsters]

Hi all, What I don't understand (being relatively new to Geocaching) Why would anyone want to falsify their numbers? I mean yes this a sport/hobby but as far as I can tell there is no award or prize at the end of the year. There is no super bowl of Geocaching no world series. So why do it? To make their numbers more impressive? Who are we competing against? As far as I can tel the only one I am competing against is myself.I guess the only one I would be "competing" against would be the cache owner as they hide them and "challenge" me to find it and have fun doing it. I do this for myself. I live near a state park that has numerous hides and I have fun going out in the park hunting for caches. I could care less how many finds I have or that I have some DNF's in my log.

 

My point exactly! Why fake the numbers?

[CoyoteRed]

Around here though, I've seen several names signed onto the logbook that never signed online!

I'm wondering what folks think about their names being posted when they didn't log online.

[+tozainamboku]

Around here though, I've seen several names signed onto the logbook that never signed online!

I'm wondering what folks think about their names being posted when they didn't log online.

If I were to post photos of the physical cache logs, those who didn't log online but signed the logs would have had their names crossed out.

[+sacfalconer]

Around here though, I've seen several names signed onto the logbook that never signed online!

I'm wondering what folks think about their names being posted when they didn't log online.

If I were to post photos of the physical cache logs, those who didn't log online but signed the logs would have had their names crossed out.

I think that crossing out their names because they didn't log the find online is a bit backwards of what most of the cache messages say. In many of the caches that I have found the message says that if you find this cache accidentally, which I know some people who have done this, to sign the log and replace the cache as you found it. They encourage the finder to create a free account online and log their find but not everyone may want to do that but are willing to be a good sport and play along with their accidental find. No need to strike out their name, unless there is something to gain from having a cache found more than another cache?

[+infiniteMPG]

As many ways as they are to stop cheaters, there are that many ways (plus one) for cheaters to cheat. Set up a validation code and someone who actually found it will circulate the validation code, check log sheets and someone will have someone else plop their sticker or signature in the log book (and for the people who validate log books, how do you do that on a log book in disarray with signatures everywhere or a nano log that has a blob of ink for 99% of the signatures?). Basic psychology should tell us that unless you're studied in psychology or a cheater yourself, we won't wrap our minds around what they gain from it. They're in their own little world and somehow they see their lives better by doing it... or they may be just seeking the attention in getting caught or confronted. But yes, to themselves they do somehow profit from it regardless of how the rest of the world looks down upon them.

 

GC contains people from all slices of life from those who have a passion for cheating, to those who have a passion for catching cheaters... to those of us who just want an outlet for our devious creativity and want to explore, discover new places, meet cool people and create a lot of fun for ourselves and for others. Each owner will (or will not) deal with false logs as they see fit, your hide, your property, your log. If it's obvious then deal with it as I would and I am sure most would, but we need to understand we'll be treating the symptom and not the problem

[+briansnat]

There's no profit to the cheater.

If there was no profit, then people wouldn't bother. There needs to be some sort of profit, whether perceived or real.

Similarly, there has to be some harm whether perceived or real to the people who only log caches they actually found be bothered about someone else's logs.

Ask Mr Dolphin about the extra work this person caused him.

Most people who cared about this issue would counter that the 'extra work' is a part of cache maintenance that he agreed to when he placed the caches.

 

It is part of cache maintenance. That doesn't mean that it isn't extra work and didn't take time away from other things that he might have been doing.

 

It's my job to vacuum my house. That doesn't mean it's OK for my kid to walk around in it with mud on his shoes.

Edited August 4, 2008 by briansnat

[+ReadyOrNot]

Why does everyone keep referring to cachers who do not actually find the cache, yet log it anyways, as cheaters? If that's the way they choose to play the game, then what's the problem? What they do, how they cache, how they log offline and how they log online do not affect anyone except themselves. Isn't that right KBI?

 

You can't cheat when you are the only one playing the game and are making up your own rules, right KBI?

 

If I read correctly, you said you'd delete the log if they didn't convince you it was a "Real" find. Why are you pushing you view of what a "real" find is on other cachers KBI? Why are you interferring with how they choose to play their game KBI?

 

KBI, I really wish you wouldn't push your views down other people's throats. Its their game to play the way they want!!!

[+sbell111]

There's no profit to the cheater.

If there was no profit, then people wouldn't bother. There needs to be some sort of profit, whether perceived or real.

Similarly, there has to be some harm whether perceived or real to the people who only log caches they actually found be bothered about someone else's logs.

Ask Mr Dolphin about the extra work this person caused him.

Most people who cared about this issue would counter that the 'extra work' is a part of cache maintenance that he agreed to when he placed the caches.

It is part of cache maintenance. That doesn't mean that it isn't extra work and didn't take time away from other things that he might have been doing.

 

It's my job to vacuum my house. That doesn't mean it's OK for my kid to walk around in it with mud on his shoes.

Sure, but your not taking the position that you should be following your son around the house with the vacuum on the off chance that he drops something.

 

Come to think of it, that's probably a good analogy. Your wife probably makes sure that you vacuum or dust or whatever at least weekly, rather than after each person walks across the floor. Similarly, you need not check the logbook after each find. You go out to each cache on occasion to verify signatures. This way, the logging habits of individual cachers don't make you have more or less work.

 

You don't have to run to the dry cleaners every day. You do it weekly and your wife still has something to wear to the office daily.

[+9Key]

his way of playing the game was not to go out and find caches but to try and convince the Cache Owners that he actually did find it.

 

interesting, and the first response that makes a bit of sense to me. He's engaging in a game of "tweak the tail of the tiger". I think it's regrettable, in a game that rests so squarely on trust in many directions, but at least that explanation is understandable to me.

 

On codewords, aside from the fact that they take a cache from traditional to mystery, I personally find them offensive. I simply log notes on codeword caches, never finds, or more likely, ignore them.

The cache owner decides to inconvenience every finder with recalling and reciting via email a codeword because they can't take a person's word for the find. Meh, either my word is good enough for you, or it ain't.

The odds on any given find log being bogus are astonishingly small, and the logbook exists for the owner to check if they're paranoid about it.

 

Any cache owner that wants a codeword recited had better describe precisely who or what agency gave permission for the hide right on the cache page - with verifiable contact information, as obviously, nobody can be trusted on their word.

So I guess you don't do virtual caches? They have code words / questions as part of the verification process.