DNF's

[+jodakry]

I have a quick question and was hoping some of the more experienced cachers could help.

 

You go to a cache and lok and look for it but cannot find it. You realize the cache is gone yet you found where it should be. Can you/should you be able to log as a find even though you didn't technically find the cache?

 

I went to a cache site, over a mile hike, that was a 30 minute drive from the house. I spent 45 minutes looking for the cache which turned out to be missing. I found and verified with the cache owner that I looked in the right spot but he didn't want me to log as a find. Now I have to go back and re-find something that wasn't there the first time I looked by no fault of my own. Isn't it the cache owners responsibility to ensure the cache is there or to disable it until it can be replaced? I own 6 caches and if a DNF is posted a will visit the site to ensure it is still there. I am just curious and was hoping to get some insight into this.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Clan Riffster]

This is often a controversial topic, so I'll try and get a civilized response in before the flame throwers get turned up:

 

Ultimately, you did not find the cache. You found a spot. It is up to the cache owner to establish what constitutes a find. Some owners will, upon verifying a cache is missing, allow past DNF'ers to change their log to a find. Others will not. Sounds like that cache owner is in the latter camp. If you don't wish to make another hike, you can always put the cache on your ignore list.

 

Can it be frustrating? Sure! I agree that most of the responsibility for a cache falls on the owner, but as an owner myself, I can't quite make the leap that the one of the owner's responsibilities is guaranteeing that the cache is in place. Even if the owner hoofed to the cache twice a day to verify its presence, it could still disappear between his visit and yours.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Checking on a cache for every DNF that is posted is not necessary. Many people DNF simply because they DO NOT FIND the cache, even though it is still right where the last finder left it and (hopefully) where the owner left it.

 

If a cache owner has the TIME to check on every DNF, that is no doubt a good thing, but MOST cachers have other things that they must do (called 'life') and will only check on a DNF under certain conditions.

 

What you describe is a good example of such conditions- a cacher DNFs and contacts the owner to verify they were looking in the right spot. Another example might be if an easy cache is DNF'd by a very experienced cacher or multiple DNF's are posted.

 

I assume from your post that there were no DNFs on the cache page prior to your search, therefore you were the FIRST to advise the owner the cache might be missing and you are taking the owner to task for not making sure the cache is still there. I don't quite understand how far you think a cache owner's responsibility goes. Do you expect the owner to verify the cache daily? Hourly? Do you expect them to go out and verify it BEFORE each cacher goes looking for it?

 

Until someone REPORTS the cache missing (DNF) it is unreasonable to expect the owner to verify the cache.

 

As for logging a find, common sense! You did not find it. WHY you did not find it is irrelevant. You did not find. How does that equate to "I found it?"

 

DNFs are part of the game. Caches go missing. That too, is part of the game.

[+PhxChem]

I have a quick question and was hoping some of the more experienced cachers could help.

 

You go to a cache and lok and look for it but cannot find it. You realize the cache is gone yet you found where it should be. Can you/should you be able to log as a find even though you didn't technically find the cache?

 

I went to a cache site, over a mile hike, that was a 30 minute drive from the house. I spent 45 minutes looking for the cache which turned out to be missing. I found and verified with the cache owner that I looked in the right spot but he didn't want me to log as a find. Now I have to go back and re-find something that wasn't there the first time I looked by no fault of my own. Isn't it the cache owners responsibility to ensure the cache is there or to disable it until it can be replaced? I own 6 caches and if a DNF is posted a will visit the site to ensure it is still there. I am just curious and was hoping to get some insight into this.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

I'll keep it simple. No.

 

No one says you have to go "refind" anything....that's your choice if you choose to go back out there.

 

As a cache owner, I would have said the same.

[+jodakry]

There was a DNF before mine. There was a lag between the DNF and my visit to the site, a long lag. I figured the same thing that maybe the last person just didn't find it. I verified the site and the location of where I went. I was in the right spot just no cache.

 

I wasn't trying to cause any trouble or get people riled up. I am still fairly new to this and was just curious. I personally follow mjy caches and if an experienced cacher can't find an easy hide that I begin to wonder if it is still there. If somebody can't find on their first try, I don't worry about it to much. But, if a cacher says I looked here and that was the right spot and the cache wasn't there, I don't have a problem with saying it is a find.

 

So, when all is said and done, it is up to the cache owner whether or not you can claim it as a find and whether or not they are going to maintain their cachers. That is the answers I was looking for. I just wasn't sure.

 

Thanks for the answers and thanks for allowing us to enjoy the sport.

 

Jodakry

[+baloo&bd]

So, when all is said and done, it is up to the cache owner whether or not you can claim it as a find and whether or not they are going to maintain their cachers. That is the answers I was looking for. I just wasn't sure.

 

While that is accurate per the guidelines, you do have to ask yourself "how do I find something if it is not there?"

 

If the answer is "but I was EXACTLY where the coords and description say it should be", there is no longer any need for containers.

[+DanOCan]

In this situation...

 

As a Finder: DNF...can't find something that isn't there

As a Owner: You can log a Find once I replace the container and you return to find it.

[+The Hornet]

DNF = "Did not find"

 

This is geocaching, i.e hunting for geocaches. Did you find the Geocache?

 

No - DNF

Yes - Found it

 

Hardly rocket science.

[+Kit Fox]

DNF = "Did not find"

 

This is geocaching, i.e hunting for geocaches. Did you find the Geocache?

 

No - DNF

Yes - Found it

 

Hardly rocket science.

 

There is a 30 page thread called "found it = didn't find it" Which discusses your scenario. Most of those fake finders log finds on non-existant caches, for the "smiley count."

 

If you log a false find on a missing cache, you could potentially fool another cache finder into making a trip to the non-existant cache. Some cachers fail to read previous logs, but they see the cache has been found, so they go after it.

 

If it was me in your situation, I would log a DNF, and look for other caches. Just because you wasted some gas, and you wasted time not finding the cache, logging a find is unacceptable in my book.

Edited June 29, 2008 by Kit Fox

[+Trucker Lee]

 

You go to a cache and lok and look for it but cannot find it. You realize the cache is gone yet you found where it should be. Can you/should you be able to log as a find even though you didn't technically find the cache?

 

I went to a cache site, over a mile hike, that was a 30 minute drive from the house. I spent 45 minutes looking for the cache which turned out to be missing. I found and verified with the cache owner that I looked in the right spot but he didn't want me to log as a find. Now I have to go back and re-find something that wasn't there the first time I looked by no fault of my own. Isn't it the cache owners responsibility to ensure the cache is there or to disable it until it can be replaced? I own 6 caches and if a DNF is posted a will visit the site to ensure it is still there. I am just curious and was hoping to get some insight into this.

 

Thanks in advance!

Cannot find, means did not find. Sorry!

 

But I'm confused, why do you have to go back and re-hide something that isn't there? Guess the cache owner is headed out there to replace the missing cache, or did you volunteer to do this for them. And yes, it is the cache owner's responsibility to maintain the cache, but perhaps your DNF is the first indication they have had that something was wrong.

[+TMDMom]

There was a DNF before mine. There was a lag between the DNF and my visit to the site, a long lag. I figured the same thing that maybe the last person just didn't find it. I verified the site and the location of where I went. I was in the right spot just no cache.

 

 

I would venture a guess that someone searched for this cache during that lag time. This is why everyone needs to log their DNF's and not see them as a failure of some sort. I know. Slightly off-topic. My apologies.

[+jodakry]

Thanks for all the replies. They answered the questions perfectly.

 

I usually don't log my first DNF unless I am positive I know where it should be. I will start logging them the 1st time I can't find something.

 

Thanks again.

[+wapahani]

many factors I say.

With gas prices as high as they are and your distance to said cache.

Then what the cache owner says.

 

I have 2 current caches that when we found the locations, no cache container at all.

When we got back in, I contacted the owners to let them know and just to verify.

I send them an email stating we searched for the cache, that we found what we thought was the location (give description of location) and wait.

Then let it be in the owners court on this one.

In both these cases, since they were a drive for us, the owners said we found the location and that indeed the cache was missing and to log the cache.

So, it was up to the owner and we did as they said we could.

 

Now, on a closer cache, that is owned by a friend, he ended up replacing it and we grabbed that one. Wasn't a big deal with gas for it, and I never even came close to mentioning it.

 

Its a 100% cache owner thing to tell you what to do.

 

Like someone said before to the wife, its up to you and the owner.

[+flask]

i don't believe gas prices should be allowed to make a difference as to whether or not you log a found on a cache you didn't find.

 

part of the game is that we go to look for something and don't always find it. when you leave the house you know what the price of gas is. you also know that you might not find it.

 

if you didn't find it, you didn't find it. the "why" is irrelevant, as is the amount of effort or resources you put into it.

 

you pays yer nickle, you takes yer chances.

[+uxorious]

In my opinion, if you found something, (the container with no swag, or swag and no container), then it might make sense to log it as a find.

 

If it was my cache and you found what you thought was the spot it was hidden, but nothing else, I would ask you not to log it as a find. However, if you logged it as a find anyway, I would let it stand. (Unless I had some reason to believe you never even went to the cache). I would let you decide how you want to play it.

 

it is up to the cache owner whether or not you can claim it as a find and whether or not they are going to maintain their cachers.

 

The bigger issue with your post for me is the assumption that the owner is not maintaining their cache. I see nothing in what your writing that would indicate the owner wasn't maintaining this cache. One DNF should not be enough, by itself, to get a cache owner to jump in his car and run out to check it.

[+eigengott]

Can you/should you be able to log as a find even though you didn't technically find the cache?

 

No, you can't because you don't have the logbook-paper to write on.

[+wapahani]

 

The bigger issue with your post for me is the assumption that the owner is not maintaining their cache. I see nothing in what your writing that would indicate the owner wasn't maintaining this cache. One DNF should not be enough, by itself, to get a cache owner to jump in his car and run out to check it.

 

Tough crowd because too many here like to read into things beyond their meaning.

 

The cache in question hasn't been maintained in over a month since our find, and its been a couple months since it was last found. The owner even stated the gas prices had an effect on him replacing it. So its out of service until he gets up there. I don't blame him either.

Your statement speaks double standard of "to get a cache owner to jump in his car and run out to check it."

you missed the entire post and doubt you read it by your comment.

If you read the post, it clearly stated that the cache location was clearly communicated with the owner, described the exact location. Then and only then was it decided upon.

I don't like it, I want to sign our name on the log. But there are other caches that don't have logs....

 

Some on here need to learn to read before they comment. Another 2 posters earn the foot in mouth award.

 

Like I said, its up to the owner of said cache to decide.

If said cache is 200 miles from your house, that is a totally different story. Then again, if its 1 mile, you can go back and grab it.

 

Another prime example is an absentee owner, they haven't been around to care for their caches in over a year. Emails go unanswered.

Half their caches are now MIA/muggled, but no one in the community is logging them as finds.

[+wapahani]

i don't believe gas prices should be allowed to make a difference as to whether or not you log a found on a cache you didn't find.

 

part of the game is that we go to look for something and don't always find it. when you leave the house you know what the price of gas is. you also know that you might not find it.

 

if you didn't find it, you didn't find it. the "why" is irrelevant, as is the amount of effort or resources you put into it.

 

you pays yer nickle, you takes yer chances.

 

Flask, your missing the point. There is a difference in a cache being there and YOU NOT FINDING IT, and a cache that is gone.

Reread the post.

 

Gas is an issue. If its a known that the cache was in location X and had been muggled and you found this out upon arrival. Say you just drove 300 miles. I'm not going to go back. If the owner said "no don't log it" then you don't log it. But if its a given that location X was the spot, and you can say 100% sure of it, then the owner says well log it....there isn't an issue with that.

 

If I had one of my caches that was muggled and someone from Texas came through, emailed and said this was the location? Is it missing? I would allow that, if I could say 100% they found the location.

 

If not, then NO, I wouldn't allow the claim.

[+TotemLake]

I have a quick question and was hoping some of the more experienced cachers could help.

 

You go to a cache and lok and look for it but cannot find it . You realize the cache is gone yet you found where it should be. Can you/should you be able to log as a find even though you didn't technically find the cache?

 

I went to a cache site, over a mile hike, that was a 30 minute drive from the house. I spent 45 minutes looking for the cache which turned out to be missing. I found and verified with the cache owner that I looked in the right spot but he didn't want me to log as a find. Now I have to go back and re-find something that wasn't there the first time I looked by no fault of my own. Isn't it the cache owners responsibility to ensure the cache is there or to disable it until it can be replaced? I own 6 caches and if a DNF is posted a will visit the site to ensure it is still there. I am just curious and was hoping to get some insight into this.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Not sure how your dictionary works, but in the English language I use, Cannot Find is synonymous with Did Not Find. There is no shade of grey. I can list you many examples of DNFs even though I was "in the area".

 

My perception here to your post comes across as a whine for entitlement. There are many reasons why a cache has gone missing. Your post of a DNF makes it clear there may be a problem. The owner is very well within his rights to not allow a Find because the logbook was not signed. Yes that does mean you'll have to go back and find something (if that's what you're really after). Speaking of which, here's a perfect example just completed today.

 

-=-=made use of a dictionary to correct some spelling=-=-

Edited June 29, 2008 by TotemLake

[+TotemLake]

 

Gas is an issue.

 

I disagree. Gas is a variable in your desire to hunt distance caches. It is not an issue to the cache being found or not. It has no bearing to the cache being there or not.

 

By your argument, I should have logged this cache as a Find because I was visiting Montana from Washington. EVEN if the owner said I could, I wouldn't. I did not find the cache and as a result, I did not sign the log. So what if I was in the area? That was incidental.

 

-=-=edited to add this=-=-

http://www.geocaching.com/about/finding.aspx

The Find

Huzzah! You found the cache! Congratulations! Now what?

 

Usually you take an item and leave an item, and enter your name and experience you had into the log book. Some people prefer to just enter their name into the log book. It’s an accomplishment enough to locate the cache.

 

I'm not seeing where it says "Congrats! You found the location!"

Edited June 29, 2008 by TotemLake

[+Cardinal Red]

... Its a 100% cache owner thing to tell you what to do. ...

 

No it's not. No matter what the cache owner is willing to allow, I decide what I consider ethical. Gas prices are not a reason to compromise my principles. But you play your way, and I'll play my way.

[+wapahani]

... Its a 100% cache owner thing to tell you what to do. ...

 

No it's not. No matter what the cache owner is willing to allow, I decide what I consider ethical. Gas prices are not a reason to compromise my principles. But you play your way, and I'll play my way.

 

That is your OPINION, there are no FACTS on this, as was said long ago. So arguing this is moot.

 

Yup, another case of that isn't it.

Again, go reread, you missed the point. Go back and read everything in this post. Its obvious some on here only read what they want and miss the real point.

[+flask]

 

Flask, your missing the point. There is a difference in a cache being there and YOU NOT FINDING IT, and a cache that is gone.

Reread the post.

 

 

my reading comprehension is not faulty.

 

i understand that you might not find the cache because it isn't there.

 

if it isn't there, you didn't find it.

 

if you do not understand that you might not find a cache for any reason (including its absence) when you leave the house, you have a poor understanding of the game. you know what the price of gas is before you leave home. you do not get to "buy finds" because you spent a lot of money to get there.

 

i once drove an hour from my home, bought ferry passage, and walked for a couple of hours in sub-zero temperatures over ice to find that the container was six inches out of my reach. i found it. i saw it. i was at the location.

 

did i log it? no, i did not. i had not had the container open and the logbook in my hand.

 

the next week i made the same trip with a stepladder.

 

there is ALWAYS the risk that a cache might be gone. it is one of the components of the game.

 

if you didn't find it, you didn't find it. that's pretty simple, and i suggest that perhaps i am not the person with an impairment of comprehension.

 

i would think that it'd be pretty obvious that you cannot find a thing that isn't there. there are no extra points awarded for not finding it if it's gone; you still didn't find it.

[+Pottersarah]

I wish people wouldn't claim credit for a find. DH and I went looking for a cache; the last find had been a week prior. Turns out it was under some trees about 15 feet away in the lake. The lake near us is at record levels, there are a couple of other caches that are under water. We learned a valuable lesson--read the logs carefully and don't assume someone found a cache just because they get a smilie.

[+uxorious]

Tough crowd because too many here like to read into things beyond their meaning.

Some on here need to learn to read before they comment. Another 2 posters earn the foot in mouth award.

 

Now I am confused. I was referring to jodarky's post, but it sounds like you felt I was referring to your's??

 

In his OP jodarky indicated there was only one DNF before his. He then seemed to call the cache owner's maintenance into question. (the quote was from his post, I thought.)

 

Clearly someone is not paying attention to what is being said and answered to. However, I don't think it is me.

 

I have read the posts before commenting. It is possible to get confused when reading an entire thread, but I do think I was responding to posts other then your's.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I have a quick question and was hoping some of the more experienced cachers could help.

 

You go to a cache and lok and look for it but cannot find it. You realize the cache is gone yet you found where it should be. Can you/should you be able to log as a find even though you didn't technically find the cache?

 

I went to a cache site, over a mile hike, that was a 30 minute drive from the house. I spent 45 minutes looking for the cache which turned out to be missing. I found and verified with the cache owner that I looked in the right spot but he didn't want me to log as a find. Now I have to go back and re-find something that wasn't there the first time I looked by no fault of my own. Isn't it the cache owners responsibility to ensure the cache is there or to disable it until it can be replaced? I own 6 caches and if a DNF is posted a will visit the site to ensure it is still there. I am just curious and was hoping to get some insight into this.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

I'll keep it simple. No.

 

No one says you have to go "refind" anything....that's your choice if you choose to go back out there.

 

As a cache owner, I would have said the same.

 

As a cache owner, that is your prerogative. I've been offered to claim a find on three caches that I have DNFd on when it turned out the cache was missing when I searched for it. I took it on one of them only because I knew exactly where it was from previous logs (in fact, the hide was essentially the same as one that I own) and it was in an area that I really didn't have any desire to return to. Of the two others, I went back and found one of them after it was place and as it turned out I never searched that spot the previous time. The other is still a DNF for me.

 

To the OP, if you honestly believe that you found it (you wrote that you found a hiding spot, but did you find *the* hiding spot?) I'd just put it on an ignore list.

 

Some caches get 2-3 DNFs *logged* before the owner will check them out, some might get dozens (there is a cache in Indianapolis that has only 3 finds and over 180 DNFs). I recently found a cache that I DNFd on three times and spent over two hours searching for before I finally found it. It had 11 DNFs before it was found for the first time. The owner did check on it once, even after some encouragement (it one his first and only hide, and he only has one find.. four years ago). On the other hand, there is another one nearby that was only found twice before a series of DNFs (two by me, one by someone with over 4000 finds) and I sent a photo of where I was searching to someone that found it and she thinks that the hiding spot may no longer exist. I've sent two email messages to the owner and wrote in the log that it should be checked out but it has remained an active cache with no response from the owner for several weeks.

 

As you (the OP) are fairly new you'll find that how cache owners maintain their caches and how they handle FIND/DNFs, giving of hints (whether from themselves or from others that have found their cache), whether they want pictures posted or anything else about the cache varies quite a bit. All you can really do is try to get a sense of how a cache owner handles their caches from the listing and other logs.

[+briansnat]

You go to a cache and lok and look for it but cannot find it. You realize the cache is gone yet you found where it should be. Can you/should you be able to log as a find even though you didn't technically find the cache?

 

There are two possible results when you lhunt for a cache. You find it or you don't. There is a log type for both scenarios. If I don't find it, I log a "didn't find it".

 

By logging a found it when you didn't find the cache it may look good in your stats, but it will confuse the cache owner and other geocachers. The owner might delay a trip to replace the cache and other geocachers may waste their time and gas looking for the missing cache.

 

Bottom line is you can do what you want, but remember that your phony found it log can affect others.

[+wapahani]

Tough crowd because too many here like to read into things beyond their meaning.

Some on here need to learn to read before they comment. Another 2 posters earn the foot in mouth award.

 

Now I am confused. I was referring to jodarky's post, but it sounds like you felt I was referring to your's??

 

In his OP jodarky indicated there was only one DNF before his. He then seemed to call the cache owner's maintenance into question. (the quote was from his post, I thought.)

 

Clearly someone is not paying attention to what is being said and answered to. However, I don't think it is me.

 

I have read the posts before commenting. It is possible to get confused when reading an entire thread, but I do think I was responding to posts other then your's.

 

Then why quote my post? Hmmm

[+TotemLake]

I have a quick question and was hoping some of the more experienced cachers could help.

 

You go to a cache and lok and look for it but cannot find it. You realize the cache is gone yet you found where it should be. Can you/should you be able to log as a find even though you didn't technically find the cache?

 

I went to a cache site, over a mile hike, that was a 30 minute drive from the house. I spent 45 minutes looking for the cache which turned out to be missing. I found and verified with the cache owner that I looked in the right spot but he didn't want me to log as a find. Now I have to go back and re-find something that wasn't there the first time I looked by no fault of my own. Isn't it the cache owners responsibility to ensure the cache is there or to disable it until it can be replaced? I own 6 caches and if a DNF is posted a will visit the site to ensure it is still there. I am just curious and was hoping to get some insight into this.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

I'll keep it simple. No.

 

No one says you have to go "refind" anything....that's your choice if you choose to go back out there.

 

As a cache owner, I would have said the same.

 

As a cache owner, that is your prerogative. I've been offered to claim a find on three caches that I have DNFd on when it turned out the cache was missing when I searched for it. I took it on one of them only because I knew exactly where it was from previous logs (in fact, the hide was essentially the same as one that I own) and it was in an area that I really didn't have any desire to return to. Of the two others, I went back and found one of them after it was place and as it turned out I never searched that spot the previous time. The other is still a DNF for me.

 

To the OP, if you honestly believe that you found it (you wrote that you found a hiding spot, but did you find *the* hiding spot?) I'd just put it on an ignore list.

 

Some caches get 2-3 DNFs *logged* before the owner will check them out, some might get dozens (there is a cache in Indianapolis that has only 3 finds and over 180 DNFs). I recently found a cache that I DNFd on three times and spent over two hours searching for before I finally found it. It had 11 DNFs before it was found for the first time. The owner did check on it once, even after some encouragement (it one his first and only hide, and he only has one find.. four years ago). On the other hand, there is another one nearby that was only found twice before a series of DNFs (two by me, one by someone with over 4000 finds) and I sent a photo of where I was searching to someone that found it and she thinks that the hiding spot may no longer exist. I've sent two email messages to the owner and wrote in the log that it should be checked out but it has remained an active cache with no response from the owner for several weeks.

 

As you (the OP) are fairly new you'll find that how cache owners maintain their caches and how they handle FIND/DNFs, giving of hints (whether from themselves or from others that have found their cache), whether they want pictures posted or anything else about the cache varies quite a bit. All you can really do is try to get a sense of how a cache owner handles their caches from the listing and other logs.

I'm seeing causes for SBA's in some of your examples. I'm also seeing an excuse to water down the game. It's kind of like watered down soda... You get the hint of a flavor, but it isn't quite right either.

[+Harry Dolphin]

... Its a 100% cache owner thing to tell you what to do. ...

 

No it's not. No matter what the cache owner is willing to allow, I decide what I consider ethical. Gas prices are not a reason to compromise my principles. But you play your way, and I'll play my way.

 

That is your OPINION, there are no FACTS on this, as was said long ago. So arguing this is moot.

 

Yup, another case of that isn't it.

Again, go reread, you missed the point. Go back and read everything in this post. Its obvious some on here only read what they want and miss the real point.

 

Ethics is an interesting subject. It tells you a lot about a person's character, or lack thereof. The rest of your post makes no sense. The FACTS were stated.

Distance and gas prices make no never mind. If you found the cache, and signed the log (or some facsimile thereof) then you have found the cache, and deserved the smiley. I DNFed a guard rail micro about 450 miles away, a few weeks ago. It was not there. I did not find it. DNF. Seems simple. Once it became obvious that it was missing, I did not request a Smiley. Nor was I offered one. If it had been offered, I would have turned it down. I Did Not Find it. Seems simple to me. I very much doubt that I will ever return to Houlton, Maine to look for it again. Oh, well. I didn't find it. DNF. I was offered a find on a loval missing cache. No, thanks. I didn't find it. That one I did find at a later time.

[+wapahani]

I love the term ETHICS. Most people say the word but don't generally understand the term.

To call someone unethical is a insult. Especially when you don't know them (I call this being a keyboard warrior). Talk is cheap.

I've logged many DNF's that I knew haven't been there. Like I said, there isn't anything in the rules that say what the "RULE" is. As I stated earlier and has been reread like a old book, its up to the owner on this. I used examples before of find that I've went back on.

In the only 2 cases I have done so, 1 case might never see a log replaced again, the other was only checked and replaced thanks to my original DNF and note to the owner. I never even remotely asked and never have asked for a find on either.

We don't cache as a family for the stats, so adding them wasn't even top priority.

 

But hey, just another topic that got off track.

[+flask]

I love the term ETHICS. Most people say the word but don't generally understand the term.

 

i am not certain you understand the term.

 

if you steal from the collection plate, you are unethical. it is not an insult any more than any other accurate descriptor.

 

if a behavior is unethical, let it be called so.

 

if you log caches as found when you didn't find them, it is not such a serious breach of ethics as insider trading or harvesting organs from unwilling donors or breaking your marriage vows.

 

you have taken no oath (i'm assuming) to make your logs faithfully represent your actual finds, but according to common usage there are certain standards to which those of us playing the game adhere.

 

if you are known to log as found caches you did not find, i simply relegate you to the pile of people whose word cannot be trusted, and whose caching record will not be taken seriously.

 

you can do it, i guess. it isn't in violation of regulations set out by a governing body.

 

i don't and wouldn't. to make false claims, regardless of a nod from a cache owner, is a false representation and a breach of ethics.

 

if you are guilty of these behaviors, you have no right to feel insulted when somebody comes along and calls it what it is.

[+wapahani]

How is it unethical if you find the log, its destroyed but you find it. You can't sign the log because the container is gone or log is gone.

 

To me, unethical is saying you found a cache, when you never even set foot at the location, or never found said cache at sight.

 

Finding the location of said cache and find that it was destroyed.

 

Funny, just a few discussions ago, it was pretty common for many to say it was ok to claim.

Guess its just who you ask and when you ask. I could care less, like I said, that is between you and the owner.

 

I consider myself ethical, I consider your examples to be a little off. But hey, thats fine.

 

Personally knowing that a cache is there, I wouldn't log it if I don't find it.

Example, yesterday had a cache I know wasn't there. Didn't bother emailing the owner, just logged the DNF. Why, because this owner is MIA and has been for over a year.

 

Like I said, I've only done it 2 times, both cases had their own circumstance. Both caches had been logged and the owner contacted us.

I don't judge others, its just a hobby and we all do it for fun.

[+uxorious]

Then why quote my post? Hmmm

 

Well I think I know who isn't reading or understanding these posts. I don't know how you got the idea I was quoting your post, unless you also post under jodarky!!

 

My quote was taken from post #5. I've looked several times to see what you were going on about, but no matter how hard I look, post #5 was written by jodarky, not you.

 

Your apology is accepted.

[+wapahani]

Then why quote my post? Hmmm

 

Well I think I know who isn't reading or understanding these posts. I don't know how you got the idea I was quoting your post, unless you also post under jodarky!!

 

My quote was taken from post #5. I've looked several times to see what you were going on about, but no matter how hard I look, post #5 was written by jodarky, not you.

 

Your apology is accepted.

 

Uxorious, I will apologize. Those words are almost word for word my pre edit. I still can't find them elsewhere.

[+slumbersix]

 

Gas is an issue.

 

this cache as a Find because I was visiting Montana from Washington. EVEN if the owner said I could, I wouldn't. I did not find the cache and as a result, I did not sign the log. So what if I was in the area? That was incidental.

 

-=-=edited to add this=-=-

http://www.geocaching.com/about/finding.aspx

The Find

Huzzah! You found the cache! Congratulations! Now what?

 

Usually you take an item and leave an item, and enter your name and experience you had into the log book. Some people prefer to just enter their name into the log book. It’s an accomplishment enough to locate the cache.

 

I'm not seeing where it says "Congrats! You found the location!"

 

Actually I don't see where it says you HAVE to log in the logbook.

 

It says USUALLY, so its not always the case that you HAVE to log the logbook.

[+jodakry]

This has gotten way off track and I didn't mean for it to. I was just asking a question because I had heard different versions from others on how to address the issue. But as always on these type of boards, the discussion gets off track and people start getting insulted, offended, or pissed off. I was just curious.

 

But after reading the posts above, let me ask this question, I don't know why I am either, maybe I am just an idiot or a glutton for punishment.

 

You find a cache, doesn't matter where, and the log is full, waterlogged, or missing. Can you claim the find than? You didn't sign the log as others say is a criteria but you found the actual cache. If this is a yes, how is it much different than finding where it should be and it isn't there?

Edited June 30, 2008 by jodakry

[+softball29]

 

You find a cache, doesn't matter where, and the log is full, waterlogged, or missing. Can you claim the find than? You didn't sign the log as others say is a criteria but you found the actual cache. If this is a yes, how is it much different than finding where it should be and it isn't there?

 

You can find a way to sign the log. Or leave a piece of paper with your signature and post a note with your log. The cache is IN your hands. There's ways to log.

[+TotemLake]

 

Gas is an issue.

 

this cache as a Find because I was visiting Montana from Washington. EVEN if the owner said I could, I wouldn't. I did not find the cache and as a result, I did not sign the log. So what if I was in the area? That was incidental.

 

-=-=edited to add this=-=-

http://www.geocaching.com/about/finding.aspx

The Find

Huzzah! You found the cache! Congratulations! Now what?

 

Usually you take an item and leave an item, and enter your name and experience you had into the log book. Some people prefer to just enter their name into the log book. It’s an accomplishment enough to locate the cache.

 

I'm not seeing where it says "Congrats! You found the location!"

 

Actually I don't see where it says you HAVE to log in the logbook.

 

It says USUALLY, so its not always the case that you HAVE to log the logbook.

Get it right. Where does it say, "Congrats! You found the location!"?

Edited June 30, 2008 by TotemLake

[+tozainamboku]

You find a cache, doesn't matter where, and the log is full, waterlogged, or missing. Can you claim the find than? You didn't sign the log as others say is a criteria but you found the actual cache. If this is a yes, how is it much different than finding where it should be and it isn't there?

There is no score. The points don't matter. Your found it log on line is your way of reporting you found the cache. If you feel that you found it go ahead and log a found it. Sure we have some cache owners who are a bit extreme and will say you didn't sign the log so you can't claim a find. They may delete your log. Big deal. You know whether you actually found the cache. Just put it on your ignore list. Or humor the cache owner. Go back with a replacement log and sign it. On the other hand, if you look and did not find the cache and the owner says, "Sorry my fault, the cache was missing and I just haven't replace it yet. Go and change it to a find". You know that you did not find the cache. No one can force you to change your log to a found it. Use the found it log to report when you found the log. Use the Did not find to report you didn't find the cache. Stop worrying about your find count. You are not competing with anyone.

[+hydnsek]

You find a cache, doesn't matter where, and the log is full, waterlogged, or missing. Can you claim the find than? You didn't sign the log as others say is a criteria but you found the actual cache. If this is a yes, how is it much different than finding where it should be and it isn't there?

Because, as someone said early on, you only found a place, not the cache (or any part thereof). You don't even know for sure that you found the right location. Or maybe you do, but you still didn't find the cache - and isn't that the point of geocaching?

[+briansnat]

You find a cache, doesn't matter where, and the log is full, waterlogged, or missing. Can you claim the find than? You didn't sign the log as others say is a criteria but you found the actual cache. If this is a yes, how is it much different than finding where it should be and it isn't there?

 

It's pretty simple. The name of the sport is geocaching, the point of which is to find geocaches. If you hunt for a geocache and find it, you log a found it online. A wet or missing logbook doesn't change the fact that you found the cache. Found cache = Found it log

 

If the cache isn't there, there is no cache to be found. No cache found = Didn't Find It.

[+J-Way]

You find a cache, doesn't matter where, and the log is full, waterlogged, or missing. Can you claim the find than? You didn't sign the log as others say is a criteria but you found the actual cache. If this is a yes, how is it much different than finding where it should be and it isn't there?

Wow, you are a glutton for punishment!

 

If you forgot a pen/pencil mark the log with a stick or leave a signature item in the cache or otherwise prove you were there (I've emailed the owner with a precise description of the container, contents, and location). If the log is full, either add a new scrap of paper or simply initial in any random blank spot. If the log is waterlogged or missing, leave a new scrap of paper. You found the cache, therefore you can prove that you were there. The only possible exception to this are those Mystery/Unknown caches where the "Mystery" is locating the log hidden somewhere inside the cache (usually rolled up inside the pen or similar).

 

Ultimately, and this is what lots of people just don't understand (including me for a long time), is that logging online is simply a way to keep track of personal finds. That's it. There is no competition for most total finds, or most finds in a day, or fewest DNF's. If your primary geocaching goal is to raise your find count then by all means log the cache in the OP as a find. Your choice, but realize that it's the cache owner's choice to delete your log if he feels it's not legitimate.

 

But you should realize that if your primary goal is a high find count, then you've got a lot of catching up to do because different people and groups have different requirements for a "find". Some hunt in large groups and call it a find as long as someone in the group spots the cache. Some use the drive-by method, where they claim it if they're able to get to within 50-ft of GZ. Some sign the outside of the container to be quicker. Some log finds on their own personal caches to pad find counts. Some log event caches multiple times to count temporary caches hidden for the event. Some log each leg of a multi cache individually. Some search for archived caches owned by people who are no longer active and claim finds on them. Some engage in armchair caching, where they research the answers for Virtual cache on the internet and claim a find even though they've never even been close to the site.

 

Personally, my primary goal in caching is to have fun. See my profile for secondary goals, none of which includes a high total find count.

[+briansnat]

Ultimately, and this is what lots of people just don't understand (including me for a long time), is that logging online is simply a way to keep track of personal finds.

 

I see the online logs as serving 3 purposes. First, keeping track of my finds. Second, letting the cache owner know that I found the cache (or didn't as the case may be) and enjoyed myself. He spent the time and money to hide it, so I think that's the least the finder can do. Finally, providing the owner and geocaching community an update on the condition of the cache.

[+ArcherDragoon]

This has gotten way off track and I didn't mean for it to. I was just asking a question because I had heard different versions from others on how to address the issue. But as always on these type of boards, the discussion gets off track and people start getting insulted, offended, or pissed off. I was just curious.

 

But after reading the posts above, let me ask this question, I don't know why I am either, maybe I am just an idiot or a glutton for punishment.

 

You find a cache, doesn't matter where, and the log is full, waterlogged, or missing. Can you claim the find than? You didn't sign the log as others say is a criteria but you found the actual cache. If this is a yes, how is it much different than finding where it should be and it isn't there?

I always carry a marker!!! If the Log is full...I sign in between names (you can always find an open space)...or if really full, I just sign over other names...(that is if i don't have any paper). Wet log...usually a marker works well...otherwise, i have signed the actuall container itself (again, if i don't have any paper with me). Log missing...I sign the cache container...Either way...if I find the cache..I will sign something before leaving...if I do not find a cache...I will log a DNF...

[+jodakry]

Great answers. Thanks for all the different opinions and ideas. I geocache because it is a great family activity, it brings us to new areas and locations, and it is better than sitting on the sofa. I do like the satisfaction of completing the find and getting to sign the log, kind of I was here I did that sort of thing. I also enjoy the satisfaction of seeing the caches come off the page or out of a certain area. Again, I appreciate all the comments. Thanks.

[CoyoteRed]

One other option I didn't see mentioned is if you go search for a cache, you can't find it because it is missing, and you don't want to return to the area to find it when it is replaced, as a PM you have the ability to put it on your ignore list. Log a DNF--this keeps your caching history intact--and then ignore it. You can put a note of why you ignored it on the bookmark list.

 

Of course, if the hunt is worth it this is probably not something you want to do. We've gone back to visit caches we've found before simply because the hunt was worth it. We log a note, not an additional find, when that happens.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Ultimately, and this is what lots of people just don't understand (including me for a long time), is that logging online is simply a way to keep track of personal finds.

 

I see the online logs as serving 3 purposes. First, keeping track of my finds. Second, letting the cache owner know that I found the cache (or didn't as the case may be) and enjoyed myself. He spent the time and money to hide it, so I think that's the least the finder can do. Finally, providing the owner and geocaching community an update on the condition of the cache.

 

There is actually a fourth purpose. Reading logs of other cachers can provide some enjoyment value in and of itself. Granted, a TNLNSL, TFTC log doesn't provide much entertainment but there are lots of well written logs written in the spirit of the cache. For example, I've seen a few pirate themed caches with logs written in pirate-speak. I've generally found that caches that are very difficult and accumulate lots of DNF logs tend to be more interesting than logs for easier caches.

[+wimseyguy]

Find the container, sign the log-somehow in some way make your mark on it=found it!

 

Find where you think the container should have might have been=DNF did not find.

There is no shame in posting DNF's. It's a simple record of the cache history.

 

It's really that simple.

 

I've found caches that had logs that were mostly unsignable or unrecognizable, but I managed to make my mark on them. I usually comment on their condition in my online log to alert the owner and following finders. A few weeks back I found 2 caches while making a detour from a shopping trip, and realized I forgot to bring a pen. I still managed to make a green WG on the log with a pointy twig and a fresh leaf.

 

I've also found what I thought was the cache only to open the container and discover it was a teaser/dud/dummy/non-cache call it what you want.

 

What if those who thought it was OK to claim a find based on location were finding one of those instead?

Edited June 30, 2008 by wimseyguy

[+ArcherDragoon]

Find the container, sign the log-somehow in some way make your mark on it=found it!

 

Find where you think the container should have might have been=DNF did not find.

There is no shame in posting DNF's. It's a simple record of the cache history.

 

It's really that simple.

 

I've found caches that had logs that were mostly unsignable or unrecognizable, but I managed to make my mark on them. I usually comment on their condition in my online log to alert the owner and following finders. A few weeks back I found 2 caches while making a detour from a shopping trip, and realized I forgot to bring a pen. I still managed to make a green WG on the log with a pointy twig and a fresh leaf.

 

I've also found what I thought was the cache only to open the container and discover it was a teaser/dud/dummy/non-cache call it what you want.

 

What if those who thought it was OK to claim a find based on location were finding one of those instead?

I have searched for pleanty of "Dummy Caches"...just keep searching until you find the one that says something like "Congrats"...of course...if you never find that cache...you can never be sure if you found it...I have logged a couple DNF's on caches like this.

Edited June 30, 2008 by ArcherDragoon