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OzGuff

Needs Maintenance/Needs Archive Without Visiting The Cache

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There is at least one cacher in my neck of the woods who apparently spends a decent amount of time trolling cache pages looking for caches that might have maintenance issues. If he finds one he then posts a "Needs Maintenance" or "Needs Archived" listing, and all from the comfort of his own Barcalounger.

 

My issue isn't with the cacher per se but more with the practice. How can you post a Needs Maintenance or Needs Archived without physically visiting the listed coordinates? Are there guidelines for the use of these two log types?

 

I happened to see a recent reviewer log that sort of addressed this issue. The reviewer said, "If there is a maintenance problem, use the proper logging methods to indicate your experience at the cache site not assumptions." [My emphasis.] Complete Reviewer Log

 

I will be interested to know what the huddled masses think about this issue!

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I think Cache Drone summed it up quite concisely with that log (as noted in the OP). Because we've never been there, how can we know?

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There is at least one cacher in my neck of the woods who apparently spends a decent amount of time trolling cache pages looking for caches that might have maintenance issues. If he finds one he then posts a "Needs Maintenance" or "Needs Archived" listing, and all from the comfort of his own Barcalounger.

 

My issue isn't with the cacher per se but more with the practice. How can you post a Needs Maintenance or Needs Archived without physically visiting the listed coordinates? Are there guidelines for the use of these two log types?

 

I happened to see a recent reviewer log that sort of addressed this issue. The reviewer said, "If there is a maintenance problem, use the proper logging methods to indicate your experience at the cache site not assumptions." [My emphasis.] Complete Reviewer Log

 

I will be interested to know what the huddled masses think about this issue!

 

With all due respect to you, OzGuff, this is the most flagrant misuse of an issue taken TOTALLY out of context!

 

The reviewer note that addressed "proper logging methods to indicate your experience at the cache site not assumptions" was about the cache OWNER! It was about a maintenance log...NOT A NEEDS MAINTENANCE LOG...The maintenance log was from the owner who assumed the cache was still there.

 

The reviewer log you highlight has nothing to do with a cacher posting a needs maintenance or should be archived log.

 

Please answer this...And please, not a political "pussy-foot" around the issue answer. If a cache has reported problems by several cachers and the cache has been unavailable for SEVERAL MONTHS, why shouldn't it be marked as SBA by some who visits the cache or someone WHO DOESN'T!

 

If I see a cache that has been down for a VERY LONG TIME and it is obvious the owner is neglecting the cache, I WILL POST A NM OR SBA LOG! Please state ANY rule or guideline that says this is not allowed? Since you can't, you are REALLY talking about caching ethics AS YOU SEE THEM!

 

Me...I think it is FAR worse for a cache owner to neglect his/her cache than someone who hasn't visited the cache, but posts an ACCURATE and LEGITIMATE log.

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Not exactly sure which side of the fence you are on RH -- can you flesh out your thesis a little? :blink:

 

The purpose of this thread is to see what the greater geocaching community thinks about the use(s) of NM and NA logs. The guidelines as written are one thing, and then there are the real world practicalities of actually implementing the guidelines. I would like to hear thoughts from reviewers about this issue.

 

Not actually being CacheDrone I find it hard to know what he/she was trying to say; my opening post DID say "sort of addressed this issue", so maybe it wasn't the best example. Regardless of the referenced cache the question still remains: How can you post a Needs Maintenance or Needs Archived without physically visiting the listed coordinates? Are there guidelines for the use of these two log types?

 

Actually, the referenced cache MIGHT support the idea that a physical visit is needed in order to post an NM/NA, or do you read "They are for logging activity directly related to the searching for a geocache" differently than I do? Posting an NM/NA without the requisite visit to the listed coordinates does NOT seem to be searching for a geocache. Right? And doesn't an NM/NA sans a physical visit mean that some assumptions are being made?

 

My original post said that my issue isn't with cachers who so act, and it isn't. I am merely trying to get clarification about the activity. I have always defended a cacher's right to post such logs from the comfort of their homes, but have also suggested that catching flies with honey might work better.

 

And I am pretty sure that I did NOT mention ethics. I don't see this as an ethical issue. If you would like to start your own thread to explain this tangent, great. Thanks for your input. I look forward to reading the opinions of other cachers and, hopefully, a reviewer or two.

 

N.B. This thread does NOT have anything to do with GCBD8E except in so far as I quoted a Reviewer Note from that cache in order to possibly support my premise.

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It is quite often apparent that a cache needs a NM or SBA just from other cachers logs. Most people are too shy to post them.

I see no problem with others who have more balls taking up their slack.

 

For example, many people will post "the log was wet and unsignable" (even i have at times) , yet not post a Needs Maintenance along with that log.

 

I see no problem with posting a NM for them, even if i haven't been there. Could they be lying? Sure. I'll take that risk. I just want the cache to be good for when i get there.

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This is more of a "community practices" discussion than a web site function or feature discussion. I am moving it to the Geocaching Topics forum.

 

In passing, I ask everyone to play nice and be excellent to each other. Thank you.

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It is quite often apparent that a cache needs a NM or SBA just from other cachers logs. Most people are too shy to post them.

I see no problem with others who have more balls taking up their slack.

 

For example, many people will post "the log was wet and unsignable" (even i have at times) , yet not post a Needs Maintenance along with that log.

 

I see no problem with posting a NM for them, even if i haven't been there. Could they be lying? Sure. I'll take that risk. I just want the cache to be good for when i get there.

 

Since there are cachers who won't post a Needs Maintenance, can we assume there are owner who won't post an Owner Maintenance log? So your Virtual Needs Maintenance log may be posted after the wet log has been fixed.

Edited by SeventhSon

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It is quite often apparent that a cache needs a NM or SBA just from other cachers logs. Most people are too shy to post them.

I see no problem with others who have more balls taking up their slack.

 

For example, many people will post "the log was wet and unsignable" (even i have at times) , yet not post a Needs Maintenance along with that log.

 

I see no problem with posting a NM for them, even if i haven't been there. Could they be lying? Sure. I'll take that risk. I just want the cache to be good for when i get there.

Please don't ever do that to one of my caches. I read every log I receive. If there is a problem, I go fix it. Normally I will write a note on the log when I get back home, however there have been times I have forgotten to. Also if I'm caching and find a wet log or other maintenance issue I can correct, I will do so and report it in my log when I get home. How do you know the state the cache is in if you have not been there? You're needs maintenance would not only be useless it would bump other useful logs down the page. That may not seem like a big deal to most cachers, but for folks that use GSAK and/or cache paperless it can be. Thank you.

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I was going to say that I would never do that! Then I checked and found that I have actually posted 8 SBA logs.

1) Found remnants of cache in May. Disabled in May. Reviewer note in July. SBA in August.

2) Last found in December. Our DNF in January. Disabled in February. Reviewer note in August. SBA and Archive in October.

3) Found in September. Archived in March. Adopted and disabled in July (with no cache placed). SBA November. Archived December.

4) Found in March. Disabled in March (with note that it was missing and being replaced elsewhere.) SBA April. Archived May.

5) Found in October. 9 DNFs December through April. SBA April (by someone else) Reviewer note in April. SBA in June. Archived in June

6) Event in October. SBA in January. (Okay. This one kept showig up on someone's Nearby List, or I wouldn't have cared.)

7) Published in March. DNF the same day. Disabled the next day. SBA and archived in June.

8) Last found March. Reviewer note in September. Many DNFs, including mine in December. 3 notes from owner (somehow I doubt that he ever checked on it.) SBA May. SBA deleted, and cache archived in May.

 

With the exception of the event, I had personal knowledge of these caches. But, I was younger and more naive back then... I don't think that I'd ever post an NM or SBA on a cache that I'd never hunted. That would be presumptuous. Usually, I will read some logs on a cache I plan to hunt. And make my decision based on that. Example: Cache hidden in December. 4 stars for difficulty. "EVIL, evil" 8 DNFs and two owner notes before FTF two weeks later. Nine finds, two DNFs, two owner maintenance logs through February. Disabled in February. Reviewer note in May. Enabled in May. Five DNFs throught August. NM in April. Reviewer note in May. Enabled in May. Six DNFs September through March. Owners were high school students in 2005. Nearby cache by same owners disabled since the end of March, this year. Last found February 2006. Is the cache still there? Somehow I doubt it. Will I ever look for it? Probably not. Would I post SBA or NM? Nope! I've never looked for it, so I do not know.

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It is quite often apparent that a cache needs a NM or SBA just from other cachers logs. Most people are too shy to post them.

 

I've never posted a NM for a cache I've not been to. To me, that's something you can't do without being on site... A NA on the other hand I have done and will continue to do. Looking at the logs, sometimes you can just tell. Many people ignore all logs that aren't a NA note.

 

Example

10 DNFs from January 16th to April 21st on a 1*/1* cache. No owner in sight... Someone posts a NA and the owner vows to check on it. Owner goes and checks and guess what, it's missing...

 

I can give you example after example of NA logs on caches people posted from home. I would guess that 90% of them are right...

 

edited for spelling

Edited by ODragon

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I was going to say that I would never do that! Then I checked and found that I have actually posted 8 SBA logs.

 

I did it once without visiting the cache site. The cache was a 1 star difficulty that I had found a year or two earlier and was on my watchlist. It had nothing but "found its", then 8 consecutive DNFs, some by very experienced cachers. It was a real easy cache, the owner hadn't logged on in over a year, so it was a pretty good bet that it was gone. I logged an SBA.

 

But just surfing cache pages looking to log needs maintenance/SBAs sounds to me like the person really needs to find a few hobbies to keep him busy.

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I can see logging an NA on cache that you know something about like in the examples above. In fact I've done it too. Logging one on a cache that you have never seen might be a stretch. I won't say that it should EVER not be done, because I can speak for every single instance that might arise. However a general rule you shouldn't post an NA on cache you've never visited and therefore no nothing about.

 

As an example....

 

I would bet that this cache is no longer there. The owner is not an active cache hunter anymore but he does log in from time to time, and I couldn't tell you one way or the other if he ever checks on his caches or even cares about them. But I have no idea what the state of that cache is and so I can't rightful do ANYTHING about or to that cache. Now if and when I visit the area and see the conditions for myself then I can do whatever I feel is right.

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I have posted SBA notes a few times when I haven't been to the cache. It's when I'm looking over an area I might be visiting and find something like this. There has not been a legitimate find in two years, yet four people have logged "finds" on pieces of plastic which may have been part of the container. The owner has not responded in the three years since this one was first reported as distressed.

I had no problem attempting to get this one off the maps.

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I have posted SBA notes a few times when I haven't been to the cache. It's when I'm looking over an area I might be visiting and find something like this. There has not been a legitimate find in two years, yet four people have logged "finds" on pieces of plastic which may have been part of the container. The owner has not responded in the three years since this one was first reported as distressed.

I had no problem attempting to get this one off the maps.

Now there is exactly the type of cache that would and should be the exception. It's clear from the logs and the pictures that the cache is in disrepair and the owner has had more than enough time to fix it.

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I have done both NM and SBA to caches I haven't visited. Typically my NM logs are for caches that are rated low for Difficulty, have had strings of Finds uninterrupted for months (or even years!) and then suddenly a long line of DNFs form. I will often post a NM log as a gentle nudge to the owner that they may want to check on their cache. Never had anyone complain about that practice.

 

I also have done SBA logs if I am planning on visiting an area and I see a cache with a string of DNFs AND I see someone write something like "I was with so-and-so who found this cache previously and confirms we were in the right spot."

 

There are also cases where if I feel a NM or SBA log from me may not be welcome I just bring the cache to the attention of the local reviewer and let them deal with it as they see fit.

 

Posting a NM for a cache I haven't been to just because someone else found a moist logbook? Nah, not worth my effort.

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I hate it when all the points I was going to make were already made. :blink:

 

There's a fairly well defined line here between being a cache cop and being a good geo-citizen. While I can't imagine a faster way to become an unpopular cacher than someone appointing themselves a armchair regulator, there are circumstances that should not require a visit to a cache to request an SBA log.

 

If you are an active cacher you know things about caches, cache owners, and certain circumstances unique to your area. As many of the other examples listed point out, there are caches that should be archived that for some reason or another finders won't or don't pull the trigger on an SBA log. While this should never be done without careful consideration, email(s) to the owner, and confirming logs. It's okay with me and as long as the spirit of the what they are doing is in the right place. I am glad people care.

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How can you post a Needs Maintenance or Needs Archived without physically visiting the listed coordinates?

 

Good question. If a cache has many reports from actual visits stating that the cache is damaged or missing...If someone who has visited it before says it's missing...If the cache owner does not respond or has not logged in for many months...And no one else will post it, I will post a NM or SBA log.

 

Keep in mind. The NM and SBA does NOTHING but notify the owner, local reviewer, and the geocaching community that there is a problem with the cache! It is up to the owner and/or reviewer to take action. Again, the actual log does NOTHING but notify!

 

If it hurts the pride of the cache owner, then that is his/her problem!

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Keep in mind. The NM and SBA does NOTHING but notify the owner, local reviewer, and the geocaching community that there is a problem with the cache! It is up to the owner and/or reviewer to take action. Again, the actual log does NOTHING but notify!

 

Good point! In my example I do not feel the need to do anything else. If the reviewer wants to leave it alone I have no strong objection. If the remains are still there when I get out there I'll pick it up and then write a note saying I've done so. Also... I certainly have no ill feelings for the cache owner. I understand that stuff happens. I feel liking I'm helping him out. I DO get annoyed at folks who claim a bogus find and then make self-righteous snarky remarks about the cache owner not taking care of his cache!

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Good point! In my example I do not feel the need to do anything else. If the reviewer wants to leave it alone I have no strong objection. If the remains are still there when I get out there I'll pick it up and then write a note saying I've done so. Also... I certainly have no ill feelings for the cache owner. I understand that stuff happens. I feel liking I'm helping him out. I DO get annoyed at folks who claim a bogus find and then make self-righteous snarky remarks about the cache owner not taking care of his cache!

 

I think the KEY to the NM and SBA from afar scenario from being deployed is for the cache owner to respond to concerns and keep the geocaching community "in the loop".

 

If a cache owner would post a simple note like, "I will check on it", this would defuse most NM or SBA logs. The problem is when the cache owner TOTALLY cuts off communication. No one knows what the true status of the cache is. A piece of "prime geocaching real estate" is being monopolized without any productivity being possible. No one can grab a smiley and no one can place a cache nearby to enhance the geocaching community.

 

There are many times I get tired of seeing NEGLECT and I will go and replace the log, container, etc. It seems a shame that SOME feel that their territory is being trounced upon when someone has the unmitigated GALL to suggest he/she actually MAINTAIN their cache! HOW RUDE! (Sarcasm now off)

 

The geocaches that I suggest should be maintained or archived truely deserve it. Of course this is my OPINION! Your's may vary. Most caches I post an NM or SBA log on has a long string of DNF's with the contents of those logs suggesting a problem. In addition to that, there is almost always NO communication by the owner to the geocaching public. In some cases the owner hasn't logged in for several months to SEVERAL YEARS...Yes, I can point to examples of this!

 

If the ACTUAL visitors to the geocache site would PROPERLY LOG THEIR EXPERIENCE at the cache site (i.e. NM log or SBA log) they "armchair" logs wouldn't be necessary.

 

I think I know why many people don't post such logs...It can be summed-up on one word: RETALIATION! I, and probably some of you, have experienced this. When you post an NM log you get a nasty message from the owner saying, "Why didn't you tell me this in a private message (PM)?" Well PM's are good for some situations, BUT, if there is a problem with the cache, ALL GEOCACHERS need to know about it! A PM only tells the owner there is a problem. What happens to the subsequent visitors to the cache? They have a BAD experience with a cache that is probably being NEGLECTED by a selfish JERK that thinks he owns the title to the real estate that is 1/10th of a mile for all other caches. Sorry for being blunt, but that's the way I see MANY caches that are under the weather for a while.

 

So, what should a geocache hider do if he/she can't properly maintain the cache in a timely manner? Remember, Groundspeak says "several weeks" is reasonable...NOT SEVERAL MONTHS! If you can't maintain the cache in "several weeks", then you should do one of three things:

  1. Ask local geocachers to lend a hand! Most will be more than willing to help...I WOULD!
  2. Adopt the cache out to a geocacher who is willing to maintain the cache. There are several OLD caches in my area that I have adopted and maintain to keep the history active! I feel keeping the older caches alive is preferable to putting a brand new cache in its place once archived.
  3. ARCHIVE THE CACHE! Let it go! It doesn't reflect badly upon you...Just the reverse! It shows that you are thinking of what's better for the geocaching COMMUNITY before your own personal wishes.

The OP, OzGuff, doesn't say who he is talking about, but it is me. I find no shame in it. I have had communications with my local reviewer on the topic. The contents are private communications and I didn't ask the reviewer to publish his/her comments, so I will suffice it to say, he/she didn't ask me to stop!

 

I have had a mixed bag of responses. As you may imagine, I have had some very UPSET geocache owners do everything from questioning my ancestory to posting my personal information in a public geocache log. RETALIATION! This instead of just maintaining his/her geocache! I have had some people debate the issue with me. I have had some people thank me for doing what they feared to do for the retaliation that sometimes follows. And I have even had some geocache owners THANK me for motivating them to maintain their cache.

 

So, what usually happens when I post an NM or SBA log? In most cases, I estimate about 60% of the time, the cache ALL OF A SUDDEN get maintained! This reinforces my belief that most geocache neglectors simply need a little "kick in the pants" to do the right thing. In about 25% of the time, the owner will archive the cache. The rest usually gets archived by the local reviewer. These percentages are ESTIMATES only.

 

So, in the last instance, the reviewer archives the cache, what does this say about the SBA log? THE GEOCACHE TRUELY NEEDED TO BE ARCHIVED! So why the BIG hissy fits about the NM and SBA logs from afar? Whether you are an actually visitor or just an observer of OTHER LOGS, the results are the same!

 

Ok, I will relinquish my position on the soap box and pass it to the next person.

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I see no problem with posting a NM for them, even if i haven't been there. Could they be lying? Sure. I'll take that risk. I just want the cache to be good for when i get there.

Please don't ever do that to one of my caches. I read every log I receive. If there is a problem, I go fix it.

 

You caches are not likely to ever see a NM or SBA because you are responsive and take exceptionally good care of them.

 

For those too-many-hundreds of caches in my territory where the owners are clearly not responsive or have left the game, there is no conceivable problem with someone logging a NM or SBA simply from reading the cache recent history. I have done that many times. It helps get the cache either back in shape or removed from the game, often the latter because the owner won't fix it. Many, many cache owners don't care about the game the way that we do.

 

I'm sure there are many examples of people logging NM or SBA where it is not warranted but what, really, is the harm in that? A responsive owner or watching local cacher can easily post a note saying "I will check on it." They can then even sit tight and wait for the next finder's response if they can't get out there or if they don't believe there is really a problem. If the cache is o.k. that will likely be said.

 

- - -

 

Edit to note that the previous post appears to make the same points. I was scanning pretty fast when I got this far down.

Edited by Team Sagefox

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I don't see why owners get so worked up over a NM or SBA on their caches.

 

Repeated logs stating the cache is in bad condition - and you ignoring them - makes you look like much more of a bad cache owner than my NM/SBA log.

 

If a logger says the cache is in bad condition, and the owner has not posted a note or a Owner Maintenance, future finders will (and should) assume the cache is still in that bad condition. If you don't want future seekers to skip your cache, you should let people know that you have done maintenance by posted an OM log.

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If you don't want future seekers to skip your cache, you should let people know that you have done maintenance by posted an OM log.

 

I think your point is the solution to ALL of the issues in this thread. The geocache owner MUST keep the geocaching community "in the loop" by communicating with them.

 

If a cache owner would, as you stated, simply post a note saying he/she would check it out, that would defuse the NM or SBA logs. Instead, too many times, the owner seems to be a geocaching elitist and just ignores reports of problems with the geocache.

 

If one is going to place a geocache, he/she accepts a responsibility to properly maintain the cache. I have seen MANY times a geocache owner say, "I will get to it when I have the time." Low-and-behold several MONTHS later the geocache is still under the weather.

 

If you can't maintain a cache, don't place it. If you have already placed one and your current circumstances keep you from properly maintaining a geocache, ask others to help. If no one will help, try to adopt the geocache to someone who will maintain it. If you can adopt it, ARCHIVE IT!!!!!!

 

I watched a geocache about 25 miles from my home take log after log explaining that the geocache container was destroyed and the contents spread out in the area. First, I found it hard to believe that one of the finders or local geocachers wouldn't go out and help. Second, the cache owner had not logged in, literally in YEARS! I go tired of seeing this and put a Lock-N-Lock together with some swag, log book, and pen and replaced the cache! Why couldn't a local do that?

 

This is what I mean when I use the words, "geocaching community." Those who are TRULY in the "community" will help. Most of "US" will keep spare logs, swag, containers, and pens in our geocaching bags just for such a situation.

 

I guess what gripes me is when those who OBVIOUSLY don't care about the "community" give me CRAP when I post an NM or SBA log. Talk about RICH!

 

Anyway, the key is communication. If one is unwilling to accept and EXERCISE that responsibility, they have not business placing geocaches.

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Since there are cachers who won't post a Needs Maintenance, can we assume there are owner who won't post an Owner Maintenance log? So your Virtual Needs Maintenance log may be posted after the wet log has been fixed.

 

And posting an NM log would prompt the owner to communicate with the geocaching community by posting a note or maintenance log stating that all is well with the geocache. Otherwise, many will STILL think there is a problem with the cache.

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There are also cases where if I feel a NM or SBA log from me may not be welcome I just bring the cache to the attention of the local reviewer and let them deal with it as they see fit.

 

This brings up a related issue. There are new geocachers coming into the sport/hobby all the time. Most of us learn what is proper by watching what others do who have been here for a while. When the "newbie" sees a lot of "notes" saying that there is a problem with the geocache, then he/she doesn't know it is proper to log DNF's, NM, and occasionally SBA logs.

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This is a PRIME example why "armchair" NM and SBA logs are warranted. Look at the December 24th and April 7th logs. Both of these logs should have been an NM log! Why didn't they post one...I would bet because they didn't want to "rock the boat".

 

If I lived in the area and I see a couple more of these type logs, I WOULD POST AN ARMCHAIR NM LOG and feel it be totally warranted.

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I think Cache Drone summed it up quite concisely with that log (as noted in the OP). Because we've never been there, how can we know?

Yeah, exactly. For all the barcalounger guy knows, the cache owner has fixed it up already, or it's been fixed by someone entirely different, or the person who said it was in crap condition in their log might have just been having a bad day and took it out on anything... and the cache was still perfectly fine.

 

You never know until you're actually there.

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I think Cache Drone summed it up quite concisely with that log (as noted in the OP). Because we've never been there, how can we know?

Yeah, exactly. For all the barcalounger guy knows, the cache owner has fixed it up already, or it's been fixed by someone entirely different, or the person who said it was in crap condition in their log might have just been having a bad day and took it out on anything... and the cache was still perfectly fine.

 

You never know until you're actually there.

 

So are you saying that if 5 people who visited the cache say that there is a problem with the cache and none post an NM log AND the owner does NOT post at least a note saying that the cache is OK, no one should post an NM log unless they visit it!? Wow.

 

It is just as CLEAR that the cache needs a maintenance visit by reading the logs as it would to visit the cache, not find it and assume it's gone. The first scenario has 5 independent cachers with the same results. If I, alone, visited the cache and couldn't find it, it would be because it's gone or it could be because I didn't look in the right spot!

 

Posting one from afar with the independent findings of 5 separate cachers is far more likely to be accurate than me visiting the cache and suggesting it needs maintenance solely because I couldn't fine it!

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I don't see why owners get so worked up over a NM or SBA on their caches.

 

Heck, they get upset when I have been to the cache site many times and after a couple DNFs I go check and confirm it's no longer there.

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I have done a NM log once on an obviously destroyed cache. Previous logs had indicated that the container had been broken and needed replacement. But no NM log had been issued.

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First off you have to be pretty bored to read cache logs looking for problems, and by posting NM/MA you ASSUME that the previus finders didnt send an email to the owner advising him personally that there is/was a problem with a cache

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First off you have to be pretty bored to read cache logs looking for problems, and by posting NM/MA you ASSUME that the previus finders didnt send an email to the owner advising him personally that there is/was a problem with a cache

 

And if the owner would notify the geocaching community by posting a maintenance log or a note of an intent to maintain, YOU WOULDN'T SEE THE NM OR SBA LOGS!

 

Why should one have to assume that the owner knows or even cares about maintenance. The NM and SBA log is allowed for a reason. If the geocaching community didn't need to know if there was a problem with the geocache, Groundspeak wouldn't have created these log options...They would simply let the PM handle it.

Edited by RanHefner

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RH:

 

It is not entirely necessary for you to respond to every post. Your views on the matter are known. I am trying to see what other cachers' feel about this topic. And though I am not likely to receive one I am still interested in the views of a volunteer reviewer.

 

And to clarify -- this thread was NOT directed at you specifically. I used you -- in a general sense -- to support the argument that armchair NMs and NAs are being posted. In the big picture I'm not all that bothered by the practice. (And since I believe I am a relatively prompt responder to cache maintenance issues I am not likely to be the recipient of an armchair NM/NA.)

 

It is interesting that your posts to this thread appear to paint the cache owner-cache seeker relationship in a confrontational manner. I sure don't feel that way, and often get personal emails letting me know how a cache is doing or recommending that I perform basic maintenance. Cache owners and cache seekers sort of need each other. Can't we all just get along? :blink:

 

One final question for RH -- Were you directing these lines ("I guess what gripes me is when those who OBVIOUSLY don't care about the "community" give me CRAP when I post an NM or SBA log. Talk about RICH!") to anyone in particular? I trust that they weren't directed at anyone living in the 28803 zip code...

 

Thanks for the responses! I hope we get a few more!

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RH:

 

It is not entirely necessary for you to respond to every post.

 

Thank you for your suggestion, but unless you are a forum moderator, I think I can determine which posts to respond to and which to not, and since you have nearly 800 posts and I only have 14, I have a lot of catching-up to do! :o

 

And to clarify -- this thread was NOT directed at you specifically. I used you -- in a general sense -- to support the argument that armchair NMs and NAs are being posted. In the big picture I'm not all that bothered by the practice. (And since I believe I am a relatively prompt responder to cache maintenance issues I am not likely to be the recipient of an armchair NM/NA.)

 

This speaks volumes! From what I have seen, you are VERY responsive to geocacher's concerns about your caches. It doesn't happen often because you are very good about maintaining them. But, when a concern is posted you quickly respond. Doesn't this tell you something? It tells me that, in most cases, those who receiver "armchair" NM and SBA logs deserve it!

 

It is interesting that your posts to this thread appear to paint the cache owner-cache seeker relationship in a confrontational manner. I sure don't feel that way, and often get personal emails letting me know how a cache is doing or recommending that I perform basic maintenance. Cache owners and cache seekers sort of need each other. Can't we all just get along? :o

 

The confrontation begins when the cache owner gets his/her panties in a bunch! I simply post a message stating the facts. Here is an example of a log I may post:

 

"Cache has been unavailable for several months. Many logs requesting information has gone unanswered. Maybe it's time to archive it."

 

As you know, this is a typical log that I post. I usually don't post a NM or SBA log unless there is obvious neglect.

 

One final question for RH -- Were you directing these lines ("I guess what gripes me is when those who OBVIOUSLY don't care about the "community" give me CRAP when I post an NM or SBA log. Talk about RICH!") to anyone in particular? I trust that they weren't directed at anyone living in the 28803 zip code...

 

I directed that comment to anyone who responds angrily or even violently to anyone who posts an NM or SBA log. It is my opinion that anyone who doesn't properly maintain his/her geocache doesn't care about the geocaching community! Are you arguing with this opinion?

 

Thanks for the responses! I hope we get a few more!

 

It is assuredly so! I do love to practice my right to an opinion. As long as the moderators don't have a problem with it, I will keep posting!

 

Cheers mate! :blink:

Edited by RanHefner

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This is a PRIME example why "armchair" NM and SBA logs are warranted. Look at the December 24th and April 7th logs. Both of these logs should have been an NM log! Why didn't they post one...I would bet because they didn't want to "rock the boat".

 

If I lived in the area and I see a couple more of these type logs, I WOULD POST AN ARMCHAIR NM LOG and feel it be totally warranted.

I don't have to post an armchair log now. I did log a DNF. Now if you were me would your next log be a NM or a NA? I'm leaning toward NA and need a push one way or the other.

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I don't have to post an armchair log now. I did log a DNF. Now if you were me would your next log be a NM or a NA? I'm leaning toward NA and need a push one way or the other.

 

I wouldn't suppost to tell you what to do. If it were me under similar circumstances, I would post an NM log. If it goes unanswered for a reasonable amount of time, I would post an SBA log. I feel this is reasonable. The NM log lets the owner know of a potential problem. If he/she doesn't respond, then it is clear that he/she doesn't care about others searching for the geocache.

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This is a PRIME example why "armchair" NM and SBA logs are warranted. Look at the December 24th and April 7th logs. Both of these logs should have been an NM log! Why didn't they post one...I would bet because they didn't want to "rock the boat".

 

If I lived in the area and I see a couple more of these type logs, I WOULD POST AN ARMCHAIR NM LOG and feel it be totally warranted.

I don't have to post an armchair log now. I did log a DNF. Now if you were me would your next log be a NM or a NA? I'm leaning toward NA and need a push one way or the other.

Last find was four years ago?!? My first thought was definitely "SBA." Then I noticed that the owner actually has posted to another forum in the past few weeks. So I'd go ahead and do the "NM" first. It looks like the owner hasn't been an active participant for years, but who knows?

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I don't support the idea of an armchair posting of NM but I have seen more than a few caches that have several logs indicating poor condition of the cache or it's log. Perhaps an armchair NM would be appropriate to help prod a less than attentive owner to get out there and check the condition of what is obviously a cache in need of attention.

 

A SBA should have an actual visit to the site. But then how bad does it have to be for someone to post a SBA? I would think the thing has to be falling apart and the owner is no where to be found. Even one in the worst of shape can be re-made. Unless endangered by some sort of construction,missing owner, near destruction or significant changes in the surrounding area making it dangerous to access I fail to see why anyone would recommend archival.

 

But then what do I know? I have only posted 1 NM on a cache with several poor condition logs which I found in person to be in pretty bad shape. It was of course followed by a log praising the find.

Edited by TermiteHunter

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I don't have to post an armchair log now. I did log a DNF. Now if you were me would your next log be a NM or a NA? I'm leaning toward NA and need a push one way or the other.

 

I wouldn't suppost to tell you what to do. If it were me under similar circumstances, I would post an NM log. If it goes unanswered for a reasonable amount of time, I would post an SBA log. I feel this is reasonable. The NM log lets the owner know of a potential problem. If he/she doesn't respond, then it is clear that he/she doesn't care about others searching for the geocache.

I have to admit that I laughed when I read the first sentence of RH's reply post. At least in this situation RH had someone giving him a little extra information. In most other armchair NM/NA situations you would have LESS information. So it seems that he definitely "supposts" to tell folks what to do...

 

Still waiting for a reviewer (or someone higher up) to weigh in on the correct way to use these log types.

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From a cache-seeker perspective, I don't get much value from a "NM" or "SBA" log from someone that has obviously not been to the cache site - I can read prior postings as well as they and make my own conclusions as to the state of the cache, so what "service" has been done?

 

I agree with the reviewer cachedrone - if you don't have personal knowledge of a listing, save me from your "assumptions" until you've been onsite.

 

A "NM" log (which results in that attribute being prominantly displayed on the cache listing) carries a certain connotation for all who look at the listing; it is a function and classification that, I believe, should be based on more than a cursory armchair review.

 

Nowhere is this more clear - and the "line" regarding (self-appointed) "service to the geocaching community" more egregiously and presumptuously crossed - than when the "geo-cop" marks a cache as "NM" simply because it is a bit off the beaten path and has few "finds" and a couple of DNF's - not every cache is a LPC with a find a day! (And yes, there are examples of this).

 

My two-cents worth - me, I've got better things to do (like find caches!)

Edited by slackpacker

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There is at least one cacher in my neck of the woods who apparently spends a decent amount of time trolling cache pages looking for caches that might have maintenance issues. If he finds one he then posts a "Needs Maintenance" or "Needs Archived" listing, and all from the comfort of his own Barcalounger.

 

My issue isn't with the cacher per se but more with the practice. How can you post a Needs Maintenance or Needs Archived without physically visiting the listed coordinates? Are there guidelines for the use of these two log types?

 

I happened to see a recent reviewer log that sort of addressed this issue. The reviewer said, "If there is a maintenance problem, use the proper logging methods to indicate your experience at the cache site not assumptions." [My emphasis.] Complete Reviewer Log

 

I will be interested to know what the huddled masses think about this issue!

 

I wouldnt do this for caches, because I wouldnt want to niadvertantly say something about the cache that may not be totally correct. I do have a new habit of making a note on the page of a trackable item when either I or someone else has verified that the trackable item is not in the cahce it claims to be. With that note in place on the item logs, if it doesnt surface within some period of time (say a couple of weeks or a month) then I dont think its unreasonable to write an email to the itme owner and to the cache owner asking if one of them could please move it to 'location unknown' so it doesnt show on the cache pages. doing this do not negatively impact the trackable item, as the next time someone logs it, it's right back in play as normal with all miles intact.

 

I've seen some trackables that have clearly been missing for months or YEARS that are still listed as being in some certain cache.

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I can read prior postings as well as they and make my own conclusions as to the state of the cache, so what "service" has been done?

 

For you? Not much.

 

My two-cents worth - me, I've got better things to do (like find caches!)

 

Good luck!

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Sometimes a DNF will psyche out the next person to not really look to hard before giving up, and posting a second DNF. The second DNF will make the cache seem like it is missing, and create a snowball effect, causing each cacher in procession to look in the wrong area and verify the cache is not there. An armchair logger may be really anxious to find the cache and post a "needs maintenence" log in the hopes that the owner will check on it, while the owner is in the hospital recovering from a brain transplant , or alien abduction. They may recover, only to learn that their cache has been archived, but in good condition, and exactly where they left it.

 

A "needs maintenence" log should only be used if the cache is found and reported in poor condition, or if they are really disappointed that the Flyers will not make it to the Stanley Cup and need to take it out on something.

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Sometimes a DNF will psyche out the next person to not really look to hard before giving up, and posting a second DNF. The second DNF will make the cache seem like it is missing, and create a snowball effect, causing each cacher in procession to look in the wrong area and verify the cache is not there.

 

I've seen that effect, but around here the opposite holds true, too: a cache gets a couple of DNFs and then it's like a contest to see who can actually find it.

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Sometimes a DNF will psyche out the next person to not really look to hard before giving up, and posting a second DNF. The second DNF will make the cache seem like it is missing, and create a snowball effect, causing each cacher in procession to look in the wrong area and verify the cache is not there. An armchair logger may be really anxious to find the cache and post a "needs maintenence" log in the hopes that the owner will check on it, while the owner is in the hospital recovering from a brain transplant , or alien abduction. They may recover, only to learn that their cache has been archived, but in good condition, and exactly where they left it.

 

A "needs maintenence" log should only be used if the cache is found and reported in poor condition, or if they are really disappointed that the Flyers will not make it to the Stanley Cup and need to take it out on something.

 

Sounds like you are saying geocaches should not post a DNF if they "did not find" the geocache!? Interesting. I wonder why Groundspeak would include such a useless log option! :)

 

Our reviewer will not archive a geocache unless there is very good evidence that the cache is under the weather. He/she will then post a reviewer note and WAIT at least a month before archiving it.

 

It would seem to me that IF the local geocachers were a LITTLE BIT decent, they would ASSIST the geocacher that was "abducted by an alien".

 

Did you offer to assist?

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Sometimes a DNF will psyche out the next person to not really look to hard before giving up, and posting a second DNF. The second DNF will make the cache seem like it is missing, and create a snowball effect, causing each cacher in procession to look in the wrong area and verify the cache is not there. An armchair logger may be really anxious to find the cache and post a "needs maintenence" log in the hopes that the owner will check on it, while the owner is in the hospital recovering from a brain transplant , or alien abduction. They may recover, only to learn that their cache has been archived, but in good condition, and exactly where they left it.

 

A "needs maintenence" log should only be used if the cache is found and reported in poor condition, or if they are really disappointed that the Flyers will not make it to the Stanley Cup and need to take it out on something.

 

Sounds like you are saying geocaches should not post a DNF if they "did not find" the geocache!? Interesting. I wonder why Groundspeak would include such a useless log option! :)

 

I never said that. A DNF means that you were there, and Did Not Find it.

A "needs maintenence" note is for caches that are in place and in poor condition and that you have found

DNFs should not trigger an attribute that appears at the top of the page, when the cache could be there.

 

A unanswered "needs maintenence" attribute will cause a cache to be archived much faster, than a string of DNFs.

 

Let the reviewer decide if the DNFs are an indication that the cache is missing. They have more info about the cache anyway.

 

I have seen caches that "need maintenence" be found by the next cacher, but because the owner is MIA, or fairly new and doesnt understand how to remove the attribute, it stays on the page needlessly.

 

I said that

Our reviewer will not archive a geocache unless there is very good evidence that the cache is under the weather. He/she will then post a reviewer note and WAIT at least a month before archiving it.

Thats the way it should be. I was speaking in general terms.

 

 

It would seem to me that IF the local geocachers were a LITTLE BIT decent, they would ASSIST the geocacher that was "abducted by an alien".

 

Did you offer to assist?

 

I wasn't notified about this abduction, but if I was, I would gladly assist you. :)

Edited by 4wheelin_fool

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If it isn't your cache and you've never tried to find it...Why would you stick your NOSE into someone else's BUSINESS.

 

Cache cops. They remind me of hall monitors.....

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Sometimes a DNF will psyche out the next person to not really look to hard before giving up, and posting a second DNF. The second DNF will make the cache seem like it is missing, and create a snowball effect, causing each cacher in procession to look in the wrong area and verify the cache is not there. An armchair logger may be really anxious to find the cache and post a "needs maintenence" log in the hopes that the owner will check on it, while the owner is in the hospital recovering from a brain transplant , or alien abduction. They may recover, only to learn that their cache has been archived, but in good condition, and exactly where they left it.

 

A "needs maintenence" log should only be used if the cache is found and reported in poor condition, or if they are really disappointed that the Flyers will not make it to the Stanley Cup and need to take it out on something.

 

I totally agree here; I had one of mine receive a few DNFs so I went out with a new container and after a quick look at where it should be, replaced it. When an upcoming event in the area prompted me to check the log to make sure it had room, I found the original container :) So I guess I should post a DNF on my own cache :)

An armchair logger would of wrongly flagged that cache and if I would of been deployed, as many here are in the military and have limited internet access, it could of been some time before I could of done anything about a fully available cache. The question I have is this; if you don't have first hand knowledge of a caches condition; why post an NM or NA log? Let the folks in the cacheing area police up there own areas by having local organizations RECCOMEND proper logging practices. If it needs an NM log when you find it mark it so, don't have an outsider think they have to do it for you.

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I never said that. A DNF means that you were there, and Did Not Find it.

A "needs maintenence" note is for caches that are in place and in poor condition and that you have found

 

That might be what it means to YOU! Please indicate where this is outlined on Groundspeak.

 

A unanswered "needs maintenence" attribute will cause a cache to be archived much faster, than a string of DNFs.

 

As well it should be! Listen to what you're saying...Are you actually saying that if a geocache owner does not answer an NM log it shouldn't be archived? Please remember...An "armchair" NM log by me usually only happens when a string of DNF's logs INCLUDE information that there is a problem with the cache. Things like the log is full...The log is damaged (damp)...The cache container is broken...etc. I have seen MANY of these logs and the owner will just ignore them...We all know why! He/she is HOPING that someone will take it upon themselves to repair the cache. THIS SUCKS! The geocache owner pledged to properly maintain the cache. This crap like, "I will get to it when I have the time" and low-and-behold six months later...NOTHING! THIS JUSTIFIES ANYONE, VISITOR OR NOT, TO POST AN NM OR SBA LOG!!!

 

Let the reviewer decide if the DNFs are an indication that the cache is missing. They have more info about the cache anyway.

 

You really need to speak with your local reviewer and ask him/her about how this works. Most reviewers can not monitor every geocache for a DNF log! The reviewer is NOT automatically notified when a DNF is logged. He/she IS notified if a geocache gets an SBA log.

 

I have seen caches that "need maintenence" be found by the next cacher, but because the owner is MIA, or fairly new and doesnt understand how to remove the attribute, it stays on the page needlessly.

 

Then do what I do. I shoot the owner a friendly PM saying something like this, "Hey, I noticed that your ??? cache is being found but there is a needs maintenance icon in your attributes section. This may deter geocachers from trying to find it! You can remove that icon by editing the attributes on your geocache. If you need any help, just let me know". Have you DONT THAT? WHY NOT!!!

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If it isn't your cache and you've never tried to find it...Why would you stick your NOSE into someone else's BUSINESS.

 

You are operating under the FALSE assumption that it isn't anyone's business but the owner's. WRONG! Have you ever heard the term "geocaching community". If a cache is NEGLECTED, it has a chilling effect on the entire community. A spot is tied-up by a JUNK cache who's owner doesn't live up to the obligation he/she agreed to when the geocache was placed. What if someone wants to place a cache within 512-feet but can't because a totally useless geocache which no one can find or log a smiley is there? IT IS EVERYONE'S BUSINESS! The geocache "owner" does not own the real estate the cache is on, in most cases. The geocache "owner" does not have a right to list the geocache on Groundspeak...It is a privilage that can be given, taken away, and adjusted.

 

Cache cops. They remind me of hall monitors.....

 

And why are hall monitors utilized? Because there is always one JERK that think the rules don't apply and they are ABOVE them.

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In passing, I ask everyone to play nice and be excellent to each other. Thank you.

Aren't there guidelines about civility here in the forums? Where is a hall monitor when you need one?

 

RH: Yelling at someone who holds a differing opinion does not make your case stronger. We are allowed to disagree. What I have asked for in this thread is information on the official Groundspeak guidelines for the uses of NMs and NAs. My guess is that Groundspeak actually wants to keep the "rules" a little fuzzy as Groundspeak (and local reviewers) probably don't mind hall monitors and armchair geo-police keeping tabs on cache maintenance issues.

 

But until word is handed down on the proper usages of NMs and NAs many of us out here actually finding and hiding caches will continue to believe that the practice of armchair NMs and NAs is not kosher. To me it is sort of like receiving a speeding ticket because someone told the police officer that I was speeding -- and the police officer was not on duty and fast asleep at the time I was allegedly speeding. (OK, so the analogy may not fit, but I am pressed for time and had to type something!)

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